<strong>I think we were spoiled for way too long with old hardware being sufficient to run the latest OS releases with 9.x. I mean, the 6400/180 I bought in 8th grade would run 9.2 pretty well... heh.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope we strike a plateau like that again soon in terms of OS requirements. I have a G4/400 tower. I can upgrade my video card for 10.2 but I'd really like to go to a new rig I'm just waiting for the Hardware to get a bit ahead of the OS. I know Apple needs to have us replacing our hardware from time to time but I cant afford to replace every 18 months.
Now I'm not griping about X. Before I got X I was ready to ditch the Mac. My machine crashed several times a day (hardly appropriate for a $3000 investment). My Mac is a new Mac, a better Mac by and large, with X.
<strong>Would you prefer that they just axed the technology altogether? Or mothballed it for another 5 years (the average lifetime of a Mac) so that Apple could be 3 years behind MS, failing to exploit their own hardware to its fullest capacity, and all so that some people wouldn't feel left behind?
Did anyone here feel left behind when Apple adopted AltiVec?</strong><hr></blockquote>
All they have to do is make an inexpensive graphics card available. $100 for one of their Nvidia cards. That would placate most folks-me included, as long as 10.2 is available for an upgrade price for those who purchased 10.1 and for those who purchased machines with 10.1 on it.............................
32MB video memory is recommended, but I pose that if one limits oneself to 16bit color depth and lower resolutions, one could get by with 16MB video memory. The only 16MB chipset that supports Quartz Extreme is the Radeon Mobility chipset found on the Winter 2001 PowerBooks and Summer 2002 iBooks.
I had read in many places (Ars, NN) and heard from devs at WWDC that the general consensus for the lack of Rage128 support was the lack of a T&L unit... which, given the amount of translucency, shadow, and lighting effects in Aqua, made a heck of a lot of sense to me...
<strong>The Rev. B PowerBooks with the 16 MB RADEON mobility chips have the T& L unit, therefore they will benefit from QGL, however not optimally, as the 32 MB is needed to keep all the Aqua textures in memory. Or so my understanding goes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
the Radeon mobility 16MB doesn't have a hardware T&L unit. it was one of the major dissapointments with that chipset that the 7500 mobility made up for
you can find requirements for longhorn's DX9 accelerated UI. Notice it says just the UI needs a bandwidth of 0.93 GB/s for the UI alone. This is AGP4x, and Apple will do it with AGP2x.
Now of course people will think Apple could have came up with a miracle and make it work on RagePros with 2MB or RAM. Those people will whine no matter what.
<strong>you can find requirements for longhorn's DX9 accelerated UI. Notice it says just the UI needs a bandwidth of 0.93 GB/s for the UI alone. This is AGP4x, and Apple will do it with AGP2x.
Now of course people will think Apple could have came up with a miracle and make it work on RagePros with 2MB or RAM. Those people will whine no matter what.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh, that's the politician's argument - comparing this governments achievements with that of the last, rather than looking at what good the current government has done.
I admit I'm not as knowledgeable about the engineering required to implement features as I'd like to be, but I know without a doubt that it is possible to implement methods to accelerate Quartz in much weaker hardware than required by QE, though many of the very useful brute force shifting methods would be unavailable.
I understand that Apple has to make a business decision and ensure that any future hardware fully supports the new technology, but I don't like the attitude that current hardware should just be neglected. Products I can buy now won't work with Quartz Extreme.
belle, have you read reports of 10.2 on G4s with Rage128s? Even the Yikes seem to get a *major* speed boost. So I suggest not to bash Apple before 10.2 ships, and you're certain it doesn't help on non agp/ radeon/gf systems.
In the words of MacBidouille's Webmaster:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"
This from a guy who has repeatedly hacked Apple's DVD player to run on non supported drives (external), and who partnered with a french reseller to sell flashed gf2mxs.
Relax
BTW, you say you know for a fact lesser hardware can manage such acceleration, would you care to elaborate on the issue?
<strong>belle, have you read reports of 10.2 on G4s with Rage128s? Even the Yikes seem to get a *major* speed boost. So I suggest not to bash Apple before 10.2 ships, and you're certain it doesn't help on non agp/ radeon/gf systems.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not bashing it! I'm questioning Apple's decision making policy that seems to neglect current owners. I'm not convinced by the reports of improvements. For most people, the multi-threaded Finder will make OS X seem like it's flying. Try resizing a window without QE and see how that works out.
[quote]<strong>In the words of MacBidouille's Webmaster:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wouldn't help. Apple has developed Quartz Extreme to take advantage of the features offered by those cards. It hasn't developed any kind of hardware acceleration for "older" cards. It's that decision that is irksome, not that QE as it stands doesn't work with lesser cards.
[quote]<strong>BTW, you say you know for a fact lesser hardware can manage such acceleration, would you care to elaborate on the issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm working on the math. Now if someone else can produce the code...
The company unable (not willing) to support the hardware. Simple. <hr></blockquote>
Well, for all the work, the PhD didn't seem to win you much.
Not willing? Good thing you did your research.... Old hardware will not support QE because AGPx2 write directly to memory. It has nothing to do with willingness. Besides, if I were Apple (which I'm not) I wouldn't devote lots of resources to keep a bunch of people with old hardware happy when the whole point of developing a modern operation system is utilizing modern (read AGP) hardware. Apple isn't trying to screw you, they are just busy making the future better than today for us users. I can't hold grudges for that.
Moral: Wait before buying machines as long as possible, and don't complain when you jump the gun and end up missing.
BTW, just because Jaguar IS fast on all machines (not just QE enabled machines) doesn't mean I am sucking Steve's ass. Steve does plenty of shite to piss me off too, I just think he has much more of a clue of where Apple is and where it should go than you do (address to those (ahemsteve) that are constantly biting ass to bite ass).
BTW, personal attacks != valid arguments, personal attacks == whining/lackOfArgument.
[quote] SYN said:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"
This from a guy who has repeatedly hacked Apple's DVD player to run on non supported drives (external), and who partnered with a french reseller to sell flashed gf2mxs.
Relax <hr></blockquote>
Hmm... Well.. I am sorta skeptical there if only because of the amount of naysaying from other people in the know. If this is the case then that is really really cool. We have to keep these crazy hacker types busy somehow....
Apple comes up with a technology that some of its computers can use now. Unfortunatly it is so cutting edge that not all of equipment can handle it.
Would you rather they wait a year to release it?
This is the same thing as them releasing the Velocity Engine. People with G3s can't piss and moan because their G3 doesn't have Velocity Engine.
The new version of OS X will run just fine on any machine it runs on now. It will probably be faster too. This is a feature that some machines are capable of using. Deal with it!
Side note: My machine won't be able to use it. I'm still happy to see it there!
Apple comes up with a technology that some of its computers can use now. Unfortunatly it is so cutting edge that not all of equipment can handle it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait, are you talking about OS X or Quartz Extreme?
Comments
<strong>I think we were spoiled for way too long with old hardware being sufficient to run the latest OS releases with 9.x. I mean, the 6400/180 I bought in 8th grade would run 9.2 pretty well... heh.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope we strike a plateau like that again soon in terms of OS requirements. I have a G4/400 tower. I can upgrade my video card for 10.2 but I'd really like to go to a new rig I'm just waiting for the Hardware to get a bit ahead of the OS. I know Apple needs to have us replacing our hardware from time to time but I cant afford to replace every 18 months.
Now I'm not griping about X. Before I got X I was ready to ditch the Mac. My machine crashed several times a day (hardly appropriate for a $3000 investment). My Mac is a new Mac, a better Mac by and large, with X.
<strong>Would you prefer that they just axed the technology altogether? Or mothballed it for another 5 years (the average lifetime of a Mac) so that Apple could be 3 years behind MS, failing to exploit their own hardware to its fullest capacity, and all so that some people wouldn't feel left behind?
Did anyone here feel left behind when Apple adopted AltiVec?</strong><hr></blockquote>
All they have to do is make an inexpensive graphics card available. $100 for one of their Nvidia cards. That would placate most folks-me included, as long as 10.2 is available for an upgrade price for those who purchased 10.1 and for those who purchased machines with 10.1 on it.............................
<strong>Jonathan, you have it all wrong.
From <a href="http://www.xlr8yourmac.com"; target="_blank">www.xlr8yourmac.com</a>
32MB video memory is recommended, but I pose that if one limits oneself to 16bit color depth and lower resolutions, one could get by with 16MB video memory. The only 16MB chipset that supports Quartz Extreme is the Radeon Mobility chipset found on the Winter 2001 PowerBooks and Summer 2002 iBooks.
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ugh, don't I feel dumb now?
I had read in many places (Ars, NN) and heard from devs at WWDC that the general consensus for the lack of Rage128 support was the lack of a T&L unit... which, given the amount of translucency, shadow, and lighting effects in Aqua, made a heck of a lot of sense to me...
damn..
<strong>The Rev. B PowerBooks with the 16 MB RADEON mobility chips have the T& L unit, therefore they will benefit from QGL, however not optimally, as the 32 MB is needed to keep all the Aqua textures in memory. Or so my understanding goes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
the Radeon mobility 16MB doesn't have a hardware T&L unit. it was one of the major dissapointments with that chipset that the 7500 mobility made up for
check this out:
<a href="http://msbetas.net/longhorn/"; target="_blank">http://msbetas.net/longhorn/</a>;
you can find requirements for longhorn's DX9 accelerated UI. Notice it says just the UI needs a bandwidth of 0.93 GB/s for the UI alone. This is AGP4x, and Apple will do it with AGP2x.
Now of course people will think Apple could have came up with a miracle and make it work on RagePros with 2MB or RAM. Those people will whine no matter what.
<strong>you can find requirements for longhorn's DX9 accelerated UI. Notice it says just the UI needs a bandwidth of 0.93 GB/s for the UI alone. This is AGP4x, and Apple will do it with AGP2x.
Now of course people will think Apple could have came up with a miracle and make it work on RagePros with 2MB or RAM. Those people will whine no matter what.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh, that's the politician's argument - comparing this governments achievements with that of the last, rather than looking at what good the current government has done.
I admit I'm not as knowledgeable about the engineering required to implement features as I'd like to be, but I know without a doubt that it is possible to implement methods to accelerate Quartz in much weaker hardware than required by QE, though many of the very useful brute force shifting methods would be unavailable.
I understand that Apple has to make a business decision and ensure that any future hardware fully supports the new technology, but I don't like the attitude that current hardware should just be neglected. Products I can buy now won't work with Quartz Extreme.
In the words of MacBidouille's Webmaster:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"
This from a guy who has repeatedly hacked Apple's DVD player to run on non supported drives (external), and who partnered with a french reseller to sell flashed gf2mxs.
Relax
BTW, you say you know for a fact lesser hardware can manage such acceleration, would you care to elaborate on the issue?
<strong>belle, have you read reports of 10.2 on G4s with Rage128s? Even the Yikes seem to get a *major* speed boost. So I suggest not to bash Apple before 10.2 ships, and you're certain it doesn't help on non agp/ radeon/gf systems.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not bashing it! I'm questioning Apple's decision making policy that seems to neglect current owners. I'm not convinced by the reports of improvements. For most people, the multi-threaded Finder will make OS X seem like it's flying. Try resizing a window without QE and see how that works out.
[quote]<strong>In the words of MacBidouille's Webmaster:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wouldn't help. Apple has developed Quartz Extreme to take advantage of the features offered by those cards. It hasn't developed any kind of hardware acceleration for "older" cards. It's that decision that is irksome, not that QE as it stands doesn't work with lesser cards.
[quote]<strong>BTW, you say you know for a fact lesser hardware can manage such acceleration, would you care to elaborate on the issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm working on the math. Now if someone else can produce the code...
The company unable (not willing) to support the hardware. Simple. <hr></blockquote>
Well, for all the work, the PhD didn't seem to win you much.
Not willing? Good thing you did your research.... Old hardware will not support QE because AGPx2 write directly to memory. It has nothing to do with willingness. Besides, if I were Apple (which I'm not) I wouldn't devote lots of resources to keep a bunch of people with old hardware happy when the whole point of developing a modern operation system is utilizing modern (read AGP) hardware. Apple isn't trying to screw you, they are just busy making the future better than today for us users. I can't hold grudges for that.
Moral: Wait before buying machines as long as possible, and don't complain when you jump the gun and end up missing.
BTW, just because Jaguar IS fast on all machines (not just QE enabled machines) doesn't mean I am sucking Steve's ass. Steve does plenty of shite to piss me off too, I just think he has much more of a clue of where Apple is and where it should go than you do (address to those (ahemsteve) that are constantly biting ass to bite ass).
BTW, personal attacks != valid arguments, personal attacks == whining/lackOfArgument.
[quote] SYN said:
"If the limitation to geforce/radeon agp class system is an arbitrary one on Apple's part, then rest assured, we will find a way to enable it on other systems"
This from a guy who has repeatedly hacked Apple's DVD player to run on non supported drives (external), and who partnered with a french reseller to sell flashed gf2mxs.
Relax <hr></blockquote>
Hmm... Well.. I am sorta skeptical there if only because of the amount of naysaying from other people in the know. If this is the case then that is really really cool. We have to keep these crazy hacker types busy somehow....
Apple comes up with a technology that some of its computers can use now. Unfortunatly it is so cutting edge that not all of equipment can handle it.
Would you rather they wait a year to release it?
This is the same thing as them releasing the Velocity Engine. People with G3s can't piss and moan because their G3 doesn't have Velocity Engine.
The new version of OS X will run just fine on any machine it runs on now. It will probably be faster too. This is a feature that some machines are capable of using. Deal with it!
Side note: My machine won't be able to use it. I'm still happy to see it there!
<strong>Wait,
Apple comes up with a technology that some of its computers can use now. Unfortunatly it is so cutting edge that not all of equipment can handle it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait, are you talking about OS X or Quartz Extreme?