With that said, I don't really get the point of HDCP, which requires an HDCP-enabled display. Why do they want to protect the output device? Anyone have any insight on this?
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
my bet : in less than a few months, we'l have $15 converters that are DHCP-to-unprotected-VGA flooding the market from some cheapo taiwanese factory. That or DVD-jon will break DHCP.
Everybody seems to be pointing at negatives, here, but I thought us Mac users wanted this. Didn't we want HDCP compliant displays and the software and hardware to handle this, so that we could watch Blu-Ray movies???
Edit: I see solipsism asks about this too...
Maye you wanted this, but I want blu-ray without DRM thank you!
I buy music on iTunes and I think it's a fabulous service. I just think that when I buy the songs in a digital-only format, I should be able to treat them like songs I own on CDs.
Nope, I'll stick with my trusty ole' MBP until this whole silly DRM game explodes in the studios' faces and they realise what morons they've been, then I'll buy whatever lovely little piece of hardware Apple has brought out by then. It may be ten years from now, but I'm a patient fellow.
Jimzip
Good luck Jimmy, DRM has been around for more than 25 years and we still get stuck with it.
Yeah, this is pretty much completely wrong. The problem is with your number (2): You own the DVD, but you don't own Wall-E, and you CANNOT do whatever you want with the DVD's content (including, by the way, fast forwarding past the portion of the DVD that lists all the things you're not allowed to do with it--or hadn't you noticed?). You can give the DVD to someone else, but not the files on it. You can't show the DVD to a room full of people and charge money for it. (People do that all the time, but hey, that doesn't make it legal...)
To a certain extent, what's going on generally is that we're moving toward the equivalent of a society in which automobiles have chips that prevent them from moving faster than the legal speed limit. The mere fact that every driver on the road speeds, and 99.9% of them do so with impunity, does not mean that they have the right to do so, and if cars suddenly began to prevent them from speeding, there wouldn't really be any available non-childish, non-selfish argument against that technology...
You're right it's not legal, but whats the point of building a fast car that can't go fast. Or buying a movie that you can't watch whenever you want. I'm sorry but once anything goes digital it cannot be protected by any company, agency, or government. If they do start putting speed regulating chips in cars, you can bet that there will be someone who learns to hack them and I for one will use that hack. The government should be on the public's side with this, it will most likely help the end users and the producers in the in.
if the general populous want to start a serious uprising then you all need to stop buying the affected content and ALL of you need to torrent download whatever you like.
The problem with this is that most of the "general populous" is still oblivious to this, doesn't know how to get around DRM, or is to lazy to care about it. The number of us who are against DRM and are willing to do something like this isn't large enough yet.
Someday we will see an end to DRM and that is the day when I will start buying downloadable content. Until then I will continue purchasing DVD's (from people I think deserve support) and then making copies for myself or downloading others via torrents to avoid DRM. As for blu-ray...meh there will be a player that will play non-HDCP content trust me.
I had to learn this lesson the hard way. I remember trying to sell a legit copy I owned of AutoCAD on ebay. After my auction was booted and my account frozen I learned that just because I had purchased the software and license, it didn't mean I could do whatever I wanted to (which included reselling it). I was "leasing" the intellectual property under certain terms and conditions. There was no gun held to my head when I bought it. Did I like it? No. In fact, there was something very un-American about the whole thing. But that's the way it is!
If you "just won't stand for this" and expect Apple to change... you might as well get good at creating hand puppets with that non-HDCP projector!
It's one of those times when you ask yourself "what's getting upset going to do?"
Actually if enough people get upset and actually do something, say not buy DRM content/hardware then we well see a change...really think about it....don't just lay down and roll over if you believe something is wrong then do something to stop it.
Why not just add macrovision to an Analog output????(I don't really know what I'm talking about on that one)
Macrovision is a form of DIGITAL Rights Management. You cannot(at least not to my knowledge) to this date manage analog media. It can only be enforced on content in the Digital form. Once it is converted to analog the digital controller is lost.
Hope that helped...if I am wrong on this feel free to correct me!
Legality, freedom, etc. aside. Technically speaking, I don't understand why on earth Intel and the movie studios felt the need to combat piracy by placing restrictions on video transmission between the payback device and the monitor. Piracy is accomplished 99% of the time by decrypting the DRM of content digitally on a computer - not through (possibly expensive) external recording devices. Possibly piracy groups could begin to do this if DRM became too difficult to crack, which I HIGHLY doubt. However, even for those who do pirate films, for whatever reason (free or freedom), the probability they will actively search out for a device to copy a film and then PAY for it is absurd.
Basically, technically speaking, IMO they are attacking the wrong link in a weak chain and, in doing so, ONLY hurting legitimate users - it doesn't affect piracy groups in the slightest. If they really wanted to effectively combat piracy, they would either (A - technical) be working on more effective DRM protections on the content itself or (B - socioeconomically) actually work to make legal video content "purchases" easier, more convenient, etc. Apple has done an excellent job of B for music and a decent job at A. However, video is not quite there yet.
This problem is only with iTunes purchased content, I think it shouldn't cause the flickering on the monitor.
The problem with the flickering has to do with the software written to comply with HDCP its glitchy still. Hopefully we will see that fixed in the near future!
These tech companies are using HDCP as a way of forcing a monitor(TV) upgrade. In the case of the FCC it's just greed. US government (of the people, by the people) is making 100's of millions of dollars off of the analog spectrum auction. Yet, they're taking away my signal, replacing it with a new one (hey apple, what you think of that idea (FW)), and ultimately FORCING me to spend money on something I never needed before, and for what. Higher resolution? Do people realize HDTV came about because houses are too small in Japan and they sit too close to the TV. Do we in the U.S. do that? Now I love HD, but hey, I pay for it.
Now Apple, and others, are using HDCP as an excuse to upgrade my monitor. How much "Apple" tax do we have to take.
Sure, go ahead, say it's not Apple's fault. In the end though we all know who AGREED to implement it.
BTW I have yet to meet ANYBODY that has a high resolution (HD and up) stand alone recording unit (never mind with VGA input)
Ummm....if you don't want to upgrade then don't upgrade. It's not like anybody is forcing you to upgrade your mac to the new version. Just a thought.
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
Except it isn't a hack. It's DESIGNED that way. Which brings me back to my point that Apple's implementation is broken... no other HDCP compliant devices deny access over VGA. It's considered to be a "secure" connection despite having no encryption, likely do to the lack of VGA recording devices on the market.
I agree that something is broken, because the "DVD-quality" SD videos you rent from iTS should not have HDCP since the downgrade would still be the same resolution, and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play. Has this data been disclosed anywhere?
PS: When Apple finally does offer HD content from iTS with HDCP will iTunes check your system to see if the HD content will be able to be played in HD. Warning you if the rental/purchase will not play in HD if proper HDCP HW is not attached. Maybe you have HDCP 1.0 and the content requires v1.3. I think it's important that Apple make iTunes check your system or at least warn you if you are on a PC (assuming iTunes can't check for HDCP compliance on Windows).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalme8
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
.. and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play. Has this data been disclosed anywhere?
A poster on another forum said that the MacBooks could download HD content from the iTS, since they have HDCP.
No-one else has confirmed or denied this that I've seen.
We need someone with a new MacBook to rent a HD movie. Anyone out there? (You don't have to watch it straight away, you've got a month... but it'd be good to know if you can download it!)
I agree that something is broken, because the "DVD-quality" SD videos you rent from iTS should not have HDCP since the downgrade would still be the same resolution, and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play.
TV shows can be bought HD on iTunes. I thought movies were added recently, but I suppose not, so that means this was an SD movie.
Comments
With that said, I don't really get the point of HDCP, which requires an HDCP-enabled display. Why do they want to protect the output device?
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
Hope that helped!
my bet : in less than a few months, we'l have $15 converters that are DHCP-to-unprotected-VGA flooding the market from some cheapo taiwanese factory. That or DVD-jon will break DHCP.
I agree!
Everybody seems to be pointing at negatives, here, but I thought us Mac users wanted this. Didn't we want HDCP compliant displays and the software and hardware to handle this, so that we could watch Blu-Ray movies???
Edit: I see solipsism asks about this too...
Maye you wanted this, but I want blu-ray without DRM thank you!
I buy music on iTunes and I think it's a fabulous service. I just think that when I buy the songs in a digital-only format, I should be able to treat them like songs I own on CDs.
CD's are a digital format...
Nope, I'll stick with my trusty ole' MBP until this whole silly DRM game explodes in the studios' faces and they realise what morons they've been, then I'll buy whatever lovely little piece of hardware Apple has brought out by then. It may be ten years from now, but I'm a patient fellow.
Jimzip
Good luck Jimmy, DRM has been around for more than 25 years and we still get stuck with it.
Yeah, this is pretty much completely wrong. The problem is with your number (2): You own the DVD, but you don't own Wall-E, and you CANNOT do whatever you want with the DVD's content (including, by the way, fast forwarding past the portion of the DVD that lists all the things you're not allowed to do with it--or hadn't you noticed?). You can give the DVD to someone else, but not the files on it. You can't show the DVD to a room full of people and charge money for it. (People do that all the time, but hey, that doesn't make it legal...)
To a certain extent, what's going on generally is that we're moving toward the equivalent of a society in which automobiles have chips that prevent them from moving faster than the legal speed limit. The mere fact that every driver on the road speeds, and 99.9% of them do so with impunity, does not mean that they have the right to do so, and if cars suddenly began to prevent them from speeding, there wouldn't really be any available non-childish, non-selfish argument against that technology...
You're right it's not legal, but whats the point of building a fast car that can't go fast. Or buying a movie that you can't watch whenever you want. I'm sorry but once anything goes digital it cannot be protected by any company, agency, or government. If they do start putting speed regulating chips in cars, you can bet that there will be someone who learns to hack them and I for one will use that hack. The government should be on the public's side with this, it will most likely help the end users and the producers in the in.
if the general populous want to start a serious uprising then you all need to stop buying the affected content and ALL of you need to torrent download whatever you like.
The problem with this is that most of the "general populous" is still oblivious to this, doesn't know how to get around DRM, or is to lazy to care about it. The number of us who are against DRM and are willing to do something like this isn't large enough yet.
Someday we will see an end to DRM and that is the day when I will start buying downloadable content. Until then I will continue purchasing DVD's (from people I think deserve support) and then making copies for myself or downloading others via torrents to avoid DRM. As for blu-ray...meh there will be a player that will play non-HDCP content trust me.
WOW. This is pretty lame.
Now I'm REALLY glad I bought the previous gen MacBook Pro (Amazon, $1444) instead of one of the latest machines.
Looks like I'll still get screwed eventually by this Nazi BS, but not for 4 years or so.
...
Nazi BS? Gonna go that far eh?
I had to learn this lesson the hard way. I remember trying to sell a legit copy I owned of AutoCAD on ebay. After my auction was booted and my account frozen I learned that just because I had purchased the software and license, it didn't mean I could do whatever I wanted to (which included reselling it). I was "leasing" the intellectual property under certain terms and conditions. There was no gun held to my head when I bought it. Did I like it? No. In fact, there was something very un-American about the whole thing. But that's the way it is!
If you "just won't stand for this" and expect Apple to change... you might as well get good at creating hand puppets with that non-HDCP projector!
It's one of those times when you ask yourself "what's getting upset going to do?"
Actually if enough people get upset and actually do something, say not buy DRM content/hardware then we well see a change...really think about it....don't just lay down and roll over if you believe something is wrong then do something to stop it.
Why not just add macrovision to an Analog output????(I don't really know what I'm talking about on that one)
Macrovision is a form of DIGITAL Rights Management. You cannot(at least not to my knowledge) to this date manage analog media. It can only be enforced on content in the Digital form. Once it is converted to analog the digital controller is lost.
Hope that helped...if I am wrong on this feel free to correct me!
Legality, freedom, etc. aside. Technically speaking, I don't understand why on earth Intel and the movie studios felt the need to combat piracy by placing restrictions on video transmission between the payback device and the monitor. Piracy is accomplished 99% of the time by decrypting the DRM of content digitally on a computer - not through (possibly expensive) external recording devices. Possibly piracy groups could begin to do this if DRM became too difficult to crack, which I HIGHLY doubt. However, even for those who do pirate films, for whatever reason (free or freedom), the probability they will actively search out for a device to copy a film and then PAY for it is absurd.
Basically, technically speaking, IMO they are attacking the wrong link in a weak chain and, in doing so, ONLY hurting legitimate users - it doesn't affect piracy groups in the slightest. If they really wanted to effectively combat piracy, they would either (A - technical) be working on more effective DRM protections on the content itself or (B - socioeconomically) actually work to make legal video content "purchases" easier, more convenient, etc. Apple has done an excellent job of B for music and a decent job at A. However, video is not quite there yet.
BTW - my first post here.
They are stuck in the 80's
On a modem it was physically infeasible to steal a movie of DVD quality much less HD.
my $.04
Says you!
(xvi) HDMI. An HDCP connection is required in order to view movies (purchased or rented) and TV shows transmitted over HDMI.
http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/us/service.html
The problem with the flickering has to do with the software written to comply with HDCP its glitchy still. Hopefully we will see that fixed in the near future!
These tech companies are using HDCP as a way of forcing a monitor(TV) upgrade. In the case of the FCC it's just greed. US government (of the people, by the people) is making 100's of millions of dollars off of the analog spectrum auction. Yet, they're taking away my signal, replacing it with a new one (hey apple, what you think of that idea (FW)), and ultimately FORCING me to spend money on something I never needed before, and for what. Higher resolution? Do people realize HDTV came about because houses are too small in Japan and they sit too close to the TV. Do we in the U.S. do that? Now I love HD, but hey, I pay for it.
Now Apple, and others, are using HDCP as an excuse to upgrade my monitor. How much "Apple" tax do we have to take.
Sure, go ahead, say it's not Apple's fault. In the end though we all know who AGREED to implement it.
BTW I have yet to meet ANYBODY that has a high resolution (HD and up) stand alone recording unit (never mind with VGA input)
Ummm....if you don't want to upgrade then don't upgrade. It's not like anybody is forcing you to upgrade your mac to the new version. Just a thought.
Is it possible to bypass this crap with software?
Well I spose it's gotta be, so I can't say I'm that bothered. Just involves a bit of tinkering.
If someone hasn't already figured it out already they will.
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
Hope that helped!
It did, thanks a lot.
Except it isn't a hack. It's DESIGNED that way. Which brings me back to my point that Apple's implementation is broken... no other HDCP compliant devices deny access over VGA. It's considered to be a "secure" connection despite having no encryption, likely do to the lack of VGA recording devices on the market.
I agree that something is broken, because the "DVD-quality" SD videos you rent from iTS should not have HDCP since the downgrade would still be the same resolution, and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play. Has this data been disclosed anywhere?
PS: When Apple finally does offer HD content from iTS with HDCP will iTunes check your system to see if the HD content will be able to be played in HD. Warning you if the rental/purchase will not play in HD if proper HDCP HW is not attached. Maybe you have HDCP 1.0 and the content requires v1.3. I think it's important that Apple make iTunes check your system or at least warn you if you are on a PC (assuming iTunes can't check for HDCP compliance on Windows).
Acutally yes, I can shed some light on your question. They are trying to control something called the Analog Hole. This is DRM's biggest weakness and it simply refers to the idea that all digital media must be converted to an analog signal to be enjoyed by the end user. The problem is when something with DRM protection is converted to analog it loses all DRM protection and can be copied by simply recording the analog output. They hope to control this by stopping the use of hardware recorders.
Hope that helped!
That was stated nicely.
.. and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play. Has this data been disclosed anywhere?
A poster on another forum said that the MacBooks could download HD content from the iTS, since they have HDCP.
No-one else has confirmed or denied this that I've seen.
We need someone with a new MacBook to rent a HD movie. Anyone out there? (You don't have to watch it straight away, you've got a month... but it'd be good to know if you can download it!)
A poster on another forum said that the MacBooks could download HD content from the iTS, since they have HDCP.
No-one else has confirmed or denied this that I've seen.
Give me a minute and I'll confirm/deny it. I never thought to look.
I agree that something is broken, because the "DVD-quality" SD videos you rent from iTS should not have HDCP since the downgrade would still be the same resolution, and you can't currently rent or buy HD content from the iTS, so what content wouldn't play.
TV shows can be bought HD on iTunes. I thought movies were added recently, but I suppose not, so that means this was an SD movie.