Of all the scenarios I've heard, that's the worst one.
USB3 will outpace FW800 in speed, cost and popularity.
So if that's the case Phil should just come out at MWSF and kill Firewire outright.
I strongly doubt that considering FW800 already has a decent install base while USB 3 will be starting from 0. How long did it take everyone to move from USB 1.0 to 2.0? Now factor in the desktop PC market, which makes up the vast majority of computers in the world, is flat as a pancake. Add to that the fact Mac sales are outpacing the industry by 4 to 1 and USB 3's chances are not so hot at all.
To clarify, I was not predicting Apple, after having just introduced the Air and the new aluminum MacBook in 2008 with no FW800, would then put out FW800-equipped MacBooks and Airs at Macworld '09 in January, nor in the near-term.
Please drop the hot-business-speak of "going forward."
... activate Cone of Silence please - AARRGGHH! ...
The sentence already states that Apple will be using more of NVidia tech. This can only happen in the future. Thus the sentence statement was already complete were it to end with "...in its Mac computer line. [full stop]."
Does the phrase "going forward" clarify anything? They cannot intend to use more of it in the past, nor could they use more of it 'going backward', neither can they alter the normal flow of time, which is forward -- with or without them (or us). So the phrase is totally pointless and needless.
OK, so I have an issue with nonsense business or technical news jargon... sigh. \
The MBP has two graphics chips but based on this report, the "CFG_MCP79" designation does not distinguish it from the MB or MBA. So even though the iMac gets the same designation (per this report), it doesn't mean that the iMac will not have a second chip equal to or better than what is in the MBP.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE APPLE have a Nvidia 9600GT in the ENTRY LEVEL iMac... 20" of sweet, sweet gfx sexayayyy!!
Add to that the fact Mac sales are outpacing the industry by 4 to 1 and USB 3's chances are not so hot at all.
Look, I was one of the first to gripe here about the Firewire-less MacBook. I'd buy Firewire thumb drives if they were still available for sale. I couldn't care less about USB camcorders.
But that comment is ridiculous. USB3 is a drop-in, backward-compatible replacement for the most ubiquitous IO connector on the planet right now. It's success will be immediate and thorough. In its first month it will overtake Firewire 800 in the number of peripherals available.
I say again, either the Mac begins its move to FW3200 at MWSF, or we kiss Firewire technology goodbye forever.
If Apple removes Firewire from the Minis, I will have bought my last Mac. At least they should include Firewire 800 for people to connect a better hard drive, given that the 2.5" drive is barely decent enough to last 2 years...
I may just get me a used Mini or a closeout model on Apple's store...
If Apple can go out of there way release newer yet slower GMA on the macbooks in order to cook the PRO's from using pro apps, then not release firewire for newer macbooks, you can forget about firewire on the mini's.
Why? The OPEN gl good enough for games = good PRO app performance and APPLE will have none of it. Even though removing firewire hurt MOM and POP iLife users, thousands of musicians and PRO's who wanted to use the mb as a backup.
It would be great but highly doubtful unless Jobs has no say in it.
I think the current iMac is a superbly designed from an aesthetic point of view.
It's only major fault is that it is not user serviceable unlike previous iMacs.
If the hard drive dies, don't try to repair it yourself.
You will screw up the machine.
The only thing you can upgrade/replace is the RAM.
Agree.
Additionally, I think It could be improved in other areas. For a start the optical drive should be on the left side (or the top) of the machine not the right . Reason being is if a second monitor is set up it must be on the left of the iMac so the optical drive can be accessed. Personally i want the menubar on the iMac an the iMac be on the left while the second monitor be on the right. I often run into problems with dialog boxs and some windows not being displayed on the iMac when the left main monitor is not on. The power button is painful and difficult to access; you need to reach under and behind two monitors.
The most logical thing to do here is go back to the old skool and put the power button on the keyboard and put the optical drive on the top of the iMac (it has a fabric screen to prevent dust already).
I can't wait to see the upheaval when Apple drops Firewire from the mini and raises prices $200. You know that's what's going to happen if specs match the new MacBook. Don't you?
I don't know if the price will change. The Macbook underwent significant changes to the enclosure to an all metal unibody design. The Mini won't need a complex manufacturing process. It's just a spec bump and it's currently quite overpriced given that it has 16 month old hardware in it.
The dropping of firewire isn't an agenda at Apple. In the Macbook, there wasn't room for it and Apple justify it by saying that people don't need it. In the Mini, there is enough room so it doesn't matter if people don't need it because it can go in for the people who do but it should be FW800 if it goes in.
USB3 is probably too far off right now (late 2009) so I think FW800 would be a wise addition until then.
As for the iMac, I seriously hope it goes along the lines of the LED Cinema display but with easier access to the hard drive. Something like this but with the correct perspective on things :
2.5" drives are fine as long as they are 7200 rpm by default in the iMac and a BTO for SSD. Just being able to pull the drive out the bottom would be a huge improvement. The majority of people don't need to access anything besides the Ram and HD anyway and with SSD coming in, it makes sense to have the process as easy as possible to switch over.
By crossover, do you mean the games EA has wrapped up in Mac sauce? You'd be a lot better off either just getting games actually ported to Mac by Aspyr, or just installing XP and playing windows games. Cider creates such a performance problem that it's not even funny.
that's not completely true, Cider can work very very well.... and there is nothing wrong with a Cider port if its handled very well, with good amount of testing and debugging... if they just slap it in and it works and they say "DONE!" then yeah. it might have issues... EA does seem to do crap like that with their Cider ports, they don't want to spend any money at all.
Not all Cider ports are bad, I've been playing the City of Heroes Beta test mac client that uses Cider, and its awesome, some graphical things its had a few slow issues with, but in most places and in most things in the game I've actually had it playing faster, with higher frame rates (barely, but higher) under Cider, than it does in Windows XP on the same exact machine...
Saying a real "port" by someone like Aspyr is better is laughably funny. They take short cuts on their ports as well, and have very bad code in many cases. On my Macbook Pro i can run Aspyr Civ4, vs Windows Civ4 running in Windows XP, and the Windows one is about twice as fast... and less buggy.
You forgot the new MacBook Pro, which also lacked a real space restriction yet dropped its FW400. I edited my post for clarity (but obviously was a bit slow on the draw again).
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
Look, I was one of the first to gripe here about the Firewire-less MacBook. I'd buy Firewire thumb drives if they were still available for sale. I couldn't care less about USB camcorders.
But that comment is ridiculous. USB3 is a drop-in, backward-compatible replacement for the most ubiquitous IO connector on the planet right now. It's success will be immediate and thorough. In its first month it will overtake Firewire 800 in the number of peripherals available.
I say again, either the Mac begins its move to FW3200 at MWSF, or we kiss Firewire technology goodbye forever.
That doesn't make a bit of difference when you consider the rest of what I said. Desktop sales are flat flat FLAT. Whoop de doo if all of the major PC manufacturers revised all their models the day USB3 was available, that makes very little difference because that market is stagnant thanks to over-saturation/slack demand. It's just like talking about the advancements of Vista and how much better it competes with Tiger and Leopard while completely ignoring that the overwhelming majority of PCs in the world are running Windows XP (or older) and those users have very little interest in replacing the box under the desk with another box under the desk running a slower, more confusing iteration of Windows.
Unless of course...you're from the future and just know that there will come a massive spike in demand for USB3-equipped computers and devices.
USB 2.0 was supposed to be faster than FW400, but it isn't. FW800 has been around for years and it's more than twice as fast as FW400 or USB 2.0, yet it hasn't seen major adoption by anyone but Apple. I recognize USB2 won this round, but that doesn't mean a superior version will win simply by being superior and backwards compatible. The PC manufacturers drag their feet on everything - they still put PS/2 ports, VGA ports, read-only disc drives, and up until a little bit ago, floppy drives in their computers. It's going to take them years to move to DVI exclusively, let alone DisplayPort, while Apple will likely have transitioned their entire line of computers, desktops and laptops, to DisplayPort in what, four months' time!?
Yet somehow the legacy interface-loving PC makers with their pancake-flat sales are going to jump on USB3 and get everything from iPods to printers to support the new standard lickity-split and make people care?
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
Guess we'll find out the definitive answer in just a couple weeks at Macworld when Apple trots out its revised Mac mini and iMac. If they lack FW400, don't forget who told you so, and if they have it, I won't forget who told me so.
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
FireWire 800 is absent from the MacBook not because of space considers but because Apple make a decision not to... I wish people would stop thinking its a space issue. Unless I heard "look at it -- there's no room in there" from an actual circuit board engineer...
The MacBook is targeted towards consumers, not pros (just like the iMac and Mac Mini). Peripheral device makers decided long along that FireWire is a premium port that calls for a premium price. The existing iMac already has FireWire 800 and for the most part has been ignored by the peripheral device makers. Go inside any consumer electronic store and count on one hand the number of FireWire 800 products.
Apple won't care if you have existing legacy FireWire peripherals when they introduce the new iMac/Mac Mini.
Comments
Of all the scenarios I've heard, that's the worst one.
USB3 will outpace FW800 in speed, cost and popularity.
So if that's the case Phil should just come out at MWSF and kill Firewire outright.
I strongly doubt that considering FW800 already has a decent install base while USB 3 will be starting from 0. How long did it take everyone to move from USB 1.0 to 2.0? Now factor in the desktop PC market, which makes up the vast majority of computers in the world, is flat as a pancake. Add to that the fact Mac sales are outpacing the industry by 4 to 1 and USB 3's chances are not so hot at all.
To clarify, I was not predicting Apple, after having just introduced the Air and the new aluminum MacBook in 2008 with no FW800, would then put out FW800-equipped MacBooks and Airs at Macworld '09 in January, nor in the near-term.
The degree of control difference for the same hardware is ridiculous.
Please drop the hot-business-speak of "going forward."
... activate Cone of Silence please - AARRGGHH! ...
The sentence already states that Apple will be using more of NVidia tech. This can only happen in the future. Thus the sentence statement was already complete were it to end with "...in its Mac computer line. [full stop]."
Does the phrase "going forward" clarify anything? They cannot intend to use more of it in the past, nor could they use more of it 'going backward', neither can they alter the normal flow of time, which is forward -- with or without them (or us). So the phrase is totally pointless and needless.
OK, so I have an issue with nonsense business or technical news jargon... sigh.
Two words... Time Machine
The MBP has two graphics chips but based on this report, the "CFG_MCP79" designation does not distinguish it from the MB or MBA. So even though the iMac gets the same designation (per this report), it doesn't mean that the iMac will not have a second chip equal to or better than what is in the MBP.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE APPLE have a Nvidia 9600GT in the ENTRY LEVEL iMac... 20" of sweet, sweet gfx sexayayyy!!
Going forward, I hope Apple decides to keep some variant of firewire in all of their desktops in the future.
Going forward, the 20" iMacs will have LED backlighting, Nvidia *dedicated* graphics, but no Firewire.
Add to that the fact Mac sales are outpacing the industry by 4 to 1 and USB 3's chances are not so hot at all.
Look, I was one of the first to gripe here about the Firewire-less MacBook. I'd buy Firewire thumb drives if they were still available for sale. I couldn't care less about USB camcorders.
But that comment is ridiculous. USB3 is a drop-in, backward-compatible replacement for the most ubiquitous IO connector on the planet right now. It's success will be immediate and thorough. In its first month it will overtake Firewire 800 in the number of peripherals available.
I say again, either the Mac begins its move to FW3200 at MWSF, or we kiss Firewire technology goodbye forever.
Two words... Time Machine
Funny!
Yes, I guess either that, or get out the 'Way-Back' machine with Peabody and Sherman.
(though speaking of time, that reference to one of the segments of the classic Rocky and Bullwinkle animated show surely dates me...)
If Apple removes Firewire from the Minis, I will have bought my last Mac. At least they should include Firewire 800 for people to connect a better hard drive, given that the 2.5" drive is barely decent enough to last 2 years...
I may just get me a used Mini or a closeout model on Apple's store...
If Apple can go out of there way release newer yet slower GMA on the macbooks in order to cook the PRO's from using pro apps, then not release firewire for newer macbooks, you can forget about firewire on the mini's.
Why? The OPEN gl good enough for games = good PRO app performance and APPLE will have none of it. Even though removing firewire hurt MOM and POP iLife users, thousands of musicians and PRO's who wanted to use the mb as a backup.
It would be great but highly doubtful unless Jobs has no say in it.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE APPLE have a Nvidia 9600GT in the ENTRY LEVEL iMac... 20" of sweet, sweet gfx sexayayyy!!
I'm betting the iMac 20" models are gonna get the 9600 treatment, and the 24" a variant of the 9800.
I think the current iMac is a superbly designed from an aesthetic point of view.
It's only major fault is that it is not user serviceable unlike previous iMacs.
If the hard drive dies, don't try to repair it yourself.
You will screw up the machine.
The only thing you can upgrade/replace is the RAM.
Agree.
Additionally, I think It could be improved in other areas. For a start the optical drive should be on the left side (or the top) of the machine not the right . Reason being is if a second monitor is set up it must be on the left of the iMac so the optical drive can be accessed. Personally i want the menubar on the iMac an the iMac be on the left while the second monitor be on the right. I often run into problems with dialog boxs and some windows not being displayed on the iMac when the left main monitor is not on. The power button is painful and difficult to access; you need to reach under and behind two monitors.
The most logical thing to do here is go back to the old skool and put the power button on the keyboard and put the optical drive on the top of the iMac (it has a fabric screen to prevent dust already).
I can't wait to see the upheaval when Apple drops Firewire from the mini and raises prices $200. You know that's what's going to happen if specs match the new MacBook. Don't you?
I don't know if the price will change. The Macbook underwent significant changes to the enclosure to an all metal unibody design. The Mini won't need a complex manufacturing process. It's just a spec bump and it's currently quite overpriced given that it has 16 month old hardware in it.
The dropping of firewire isn't an agenda at Apple. In the Macbook, there wasn't room for it and Apple justify it by saying that people don't need it. In the Mini, there is enough room so it doesn't matter if people don't need it because it can go in for the people who do but it should be FW800 if it goes in.
USB3 is probably too far off right now (late 2009) so I think FW800 would be a wise addition until then.
As for the iMac, I seriously hope it goes along the lines of the LED Cinema display but with easier access to the hard drive. Something like this but with the correct perspective on things
2.5" drives are fine as long as they are 7200 rpm by default in the iMac and a BTO for SSD. Just being able to pull the drive out the bottom would be a huge improvement. The majority of people don't need to access anything besides the Ram and HD anyway and with SSD coming in, it makes sense to have the process as easy as possible to switch over.
iMac 20" with LED display and Nvidia 9600 GT 256MB~512MB VRAM.
By crossover, do you mean the games EA has wrapped up in Mac sauce? You'd be a lot better off either just getting games actually ported to Mac by Aspyr, or just installing XP and playing windows games. Cider creates such a performance problem that it's not even funny.
that's not completely true, Cider can work very very well.... and there is nothing wrong with a Cider port if its handled very well, with good amount of testing and debugging... if they just slap it in and it works and they say "DONE!" then yeah. it might have issues... EA does seem to do crap like that with their Cider ports, they don't want to spend any money at all.
Not all Cider ports are bad, I've been playing the City of Heroes Beta test mac client that uses Cider, and its awesome, some graphical things its had a few slow issues with, but in most places and in most things in the game I've actually had it playing faster, with higher frame rates (barely, but higher) under Cider, than it does in Windows XP on the same exact machine...
Saying a real "port" by someone like Aspyr is better is laughably funny. They take short cuts on their ports as well, and have very bad code in many cases. On my Macbook Pro i can run Aspyr Civ4, vs Windows Civ4 running in Windows XP, and the Windows one is about twice as fast... and less buggy.
You forgot the new MacBook Pro, which also lacked a real space restriction yet dropped its FW400. I edited my post for clarity (but obviously was a bit slow on the draw again).
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
Look, I was one of the first to gripe here about the Firewire-less MacBook. I'd buy Firewire thumb drives if they were still available for sale. I couldn't care less about USB camcorders.
But that comment is ridiculous. USB3 is a drop-in, backward-compatible replacement for the most ubiquitous IO connector on the planet right now. It's success will be immediate and thorough. In its first month it will overtake Firewire 800 in the number of peripherals available.
I say again, either the Mac begins its move to FW3200 at MWSF, or we kiss Firewire technology goodbye forever.
That doesn't make a bit of difference when you consider the rest of what I said. Desktop sales are flat flat FLAT. Whoop de doo if all of the major PC manufacturers revised all their models the day USB3 was available, that makes very little difference because that market is stagnant thanks to over-saturation/slack demand. It's just like talking about the advancements of Vista and how much better it competes with Tiger and Leopard while completely ignoring that the overwhelming majority of PCs in the world are running Windows XP (or older) and those users have very little interest in replacing the box under the desk with another box under the desk running a slower, more confusing iteration of Windows.
Unless of course...you're from the future and just know that there will come a massive spike in demand for USB3-equipped computers and devices.
USB 2.0 was supposed to be faster than FW400, but it isn't. FW800 has been around for years and it's more than twice as fast as FW400 or USB 2.0, yet it hasn't seen major adoption by anyone but Apple. I recognize USB2 won this round, but that doesn't mean a superior version will win simply by being superior and backwards compatible. The PC manufacturers drag their feet on everything - they still put PS/2 ports, VGA ports, read-only disc drives, and up until a little bit ago, floppy drives in their computers. It's going to take them years to move to DVI exclusively, let alone DisplayPort, while Apple will likely have transitioned their entire line of computers, desktops and laptops, to DisplayPort in what, four months' time!?
Yet somehow the legacy interface-loving PC makers with their pancake-flat sales are going to jump on USB3 and get everything from iPods to printers to support the new standard lickity-split and make people care?
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
Guess we'll find out the definitive answer in just a couple weeks at Macworld when Apple trots out its revised Mac mini and iMac. If they lack FW400, don't forget who told you so, and if they have it, I won't forget who told me so.
FW800 has been around for years and it's more than twice as fast as FW400 or USB 2.0, yet it hasn't seen major adoption by anyone but Apple.
Real world performance doesn't put FireWire 800 twice as fast as FireWire 400. Is it faster? Yes. But its not twice as fast. Sorry!
I think there are still space limitations on MBP. For one, it's not that much larger. Did you see the internal parts & diagrams of the computer? The way the computer is arranged, there are only ports on two thirds of the left edge, the remaining third is taken by battery. the right edge is taken by the optical slot and battery. The front edge is taken by battery. The screen hinge mechanism takes the entire back edge. Given that there is an 800 port there, the need for a separate 400 port isn't so important because an 800 is really a dual channel 400 port in a different jack. The additional space vs. the 13" model is taken by a slot and I think properly given to another USB rather than FW 400.
FireWire 800 is absent from the MacBook not because of space considers but because Apple make a decision not to... I wish people would stop thinking its a space issue. Unless I heard "look at it -- there's no room in there" from an actual circuit board engineer...
The MacBook is targeted towards consumers, not pros (just like the iMac and Mac Mini). Peripheral device makers decided long along that FireWire is a premium port that calls for a premium price. The existing iMac already has FireWire 800 and for the most part has been ignored by the peripheral device makers. Go inside any consumer electronic store and count on one hand the number of FireWire 800 products.
Apple won't care if you have existing legacy FireWire peripherals when they introduce the new iMac/Mac Mini.