Are netbooks shrinking Apple's slice of the portable market?

1456810

Comments

  • Reply 141 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Its $1800 for a 1.6GHz C2D with 6MB L2 cache, 1066MHz FSB, 2GB DDR3 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 9400M, 13" screen and a full keyboard. This is essentially a MacBook Pro from 2 years ago in a thin, lightweight case.



    This is a far more capable machine than any netbook. Their are sub-notebooks for over $2000 that don't have these specs.





    If it weren't more capable than a $400 netbook I'd be surprised, but not that you're still comparing it to one. But it's a niche product, and I'm amused you're arguing for the benefits of ownership.





    BTW, check the specs (and ports and bottlenecks) again. It's not a 2 year old MBP.
  • Reply 142 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jlandd View Post


    If it weren't more capable than a $400 netbook I'd be surprised, but not that you're still comparing it to one. But it's a niche product, and I'm amused you're arguing for the benefits of ownership.



    I agree it is a niche machine today. Its likely that it is a bit before its time. If their were no benefits to its ownership Apple would not have developed and marketed it.





    Quote:

    BTW, check the specs (and ports and bottlenecks) again. It's not a 2 year old MBP.



    The original MBP had the first version of Core processors. The Air has the second version which are faster and consume less energy. Pretty much everything else system wise about the Air is faster and more capable than the MBP from two years ago.



    A higher number of ports does not necessarily equal a more capable computer.
  • Reply 143 of 186
    Netbooks target a different demographic than Apple's macbook lineup.



    Netbooks are for people who 1) cant afford a bigger laptop (students, etc) 2) just needs something they can use for email/browsing 3) are satisfied by mediocre products with limited features
  • Reply 144 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by imacmadman22 View Post


    Why does everyone have their drawers in bunch over computers that have tiny, hard to read keyboards, screens and limited processing and storage capabilities?



    You read keyboards? Most of us touchtype. An MSI Wind has a display about the same width as a 12" Powerbook and has the same horizontal resolution. Care to bitch about the PB? In fact, current Apple laptops have a finer dot pitch in their displays, so GUI elements are smaller on genuine Apple laptops. Limited storage? The Wind takes a standard 2.5" SATA hard drive and comes with a 120GB drive standard. If you're so inclined, pick up a 320GB drive for about $50-60 or one of the 500GB or bigger drives if money is no object. What does a $1300 Macbook with not-so-limited storage capabilities come with again? Oh, yeah, a whopping 160GB.



    Quote:

    As I recall that was what laptops were in the beginning, so this really to me seems like, not progress, but regression. Shrinking interfaces, processing, storage and displays, what sense does that make??



    Hmm. That last sentence sounds suspiciously like an iPhone/iPod touch. Indeed, only a few years ago, most desktop owners would have said the exact same things about all laptops. Funny, I don't remember early laptops having small keyboards. Please point to one. Osborne? Kaypro? Gavilan? Grid? Mac Portable? Compaq?



    Quote:

    I understand the usefulness and differences in a laptop or desktop, but seriously this whole netbook thing to me is silly, just plain silly....



    You obviously don't do much on the go.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sared View Post


    Netbooks target a different demographic than Apple's macbook lineup.



    Netbooks are for people who 1) cant afford a bigger laptop (students, etc) 2) just needs something they can use for email/browsing 3) are satisfied by mediocre products with limited features



    Really? You should tell the people over at the MSI Wind forums that it's a mediocre product with limited features. Funny thing is everybody over there is happy with their Wind and many are even happier because they have OS X running almost flawlessly with it (except for a couple of audio bugs). That's for a machine that goes for as little as $300 after rebate today and which reviews around the web say runs OS X quite snappily. People have even run Adobe CS3 and CS4 applications on them. So much for just "email/browsing." Considering they can drive external monitors with up to 1920x1200 resolution, they're not exactly limited. In fact, they can do everything a Mac mini can, except for the Firewire port and playing back optical discs, and they cost less than the mini. Listen up: many people don't want bigger laptops. Bigger is not necessarily better. If that were the case, why isn't there a 24" Macbook Ultra Extreme Pro? If you're on the move a lot with computer in tow, smaller and lighter is in fact much preferable.



    Why do I get the feeling that most of the people who are arguing against netbooks here haven't even seen one in the flesh?
  • Reply 145 of 186
    dave k.dave k. Posts: 1,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sared View Post


    Netbooks target a different demographic than Apple's macbook lineup.



    Netbooks are for people who 1) cant afford a bigger laptop (students, etc) 2) just needs something they can use for email/browsing 3) are satisfied by mediocre products with limited features



    You realize numbers 1 & 2 make up a huge percentage of the people who have been buying Macs the past two years.
  • Reply 146 of 186
    This is a dumb thread.



    1. Netbooks are an interesting new class of computer. They are interesting because they are created with a reduced set of features. And this gives rise to a smaller size and lower cost. Cheap and Portable.



    2. Apple already have created their version of the Netbook. It's called the Air. It has reduced ports, and clockspeed in order to create a more portable computer. Apple chose not to create a *cheap* netbook.



    3. A Cheap netbook running OS X would be great. I know this because I have one. I am using it now. I bought a Wind and installed OS X from a memory stick. If Apple made such a machine, it would sell in huge numbers. It would be great in schools. I would probably be Apple's largest selling computer.



    4. But Apple will never ever make a low cost netbook . Because Apple are not stupid. They religiously avoid competing with themselves. They repeatedly drop unprofitable lines in preference to profitable ones. If Apple sold a 1000 Macbook Cheaps it would cost them at least 200 MacBook Air sales and 200 Macbook Sales.

    The profit margins on cheap Netbooks are razor thin. The thin profits from the Cheap netbook would not compensate for the cannibalization from the full-price products.



    Yes it would be an awesome computer. But it would be a disastrous business decision.



    C.
  • Reply 147 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    Yes it would be an awesome computer. But it would be a disastrous business decision.



    I agree, sums up my point beautifully.
  • Reply 148 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    2. Apple already have created their version of the Netbook. It's called the Air. It has reduced ports, and clockspeed in order to create a more portable computer. Apple chose not to create a *cheap* netbook.



    3. A Cheap netbook running OS X would be great. I know this because I have one. I am using it now. I bought a Wind and installed OS X from a memory stick. If Apple made such a machine, it would sell in huge numbers. It would be great in schools. I would probably be Apple's largest selling computer.



    4. But Apple will never ever make a low cost netbook . Because Apple are not stupid. They religiously avoid competing with themselves. They repeatedly drop unprofitable lines in preference to profitable ones. If Apple sold a 1000 Macbook Cheaps it would cost them at least 200 MacBook Air sales and 200 Macbook Sales.

    The profit margins on cheap Netbooks are razor thin. The thin profits from the Cheap netbook would not compensate for the cannibalization from the full-price products.



    Yes it would be an awesome computer. But it would be a disastrous business decision.



    Their sales are already being cannibalized. I know I would never buy a Macbook Air. Too big and clunky, even if it is thin, and way too expensive for what it is. A Macbook is even bigger and heavier and I would never even consider the slabs that are MBPs. Apple has lost my sale for a laptop. I have a good desktop machine on my desk with 8GB of RAM, 3.5TB of HD space and a 28" LCD that can take care of the heavy lifting, so I don't need a $1300+ laptop with me on the road. I just needed something that can run more than the mostly toy applications on the iPhone. Judging from the active MSI Wind plus OS X forums, very active torrents for the Wind/Leopard installers and numerous webpages out there on the topic, I'm not alone. You're proceeding from a false assumption that people who want OS X on a laptop will either buy a Macbook of some type or not buy at all. There is an inexpensive and very portable alternative, especially since recent news says they may have the audio problem on the Wind fixed very soon, which was the last major stumbling block to fully-functional Leopard on the Wind.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I agree, sums up my point beautifully.



    Bollocks. You've been arguing all through this thread that a Macnetbook would be in an "awkward middle" that people don't need, so Apple not making money on it is not your point.
  • Reply 149 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    You're proceeding from a false assumption that people who want OS X on a laptop will either buy a Macbook of some type or not buy at all.



    No, I am proceeding from the assumption that if you offer them a reasonably specd. netbook with OS X - most people will buy that machine and will not buy a full-priced MacBook or MacBook Air. As someone who uses a Wind with OS X, it is a very convincing little machine.



    But the profitability is the problem. Apple might make $20 profit on selling a netbook. Which in turn might cost the sale of an Air - and my guess is there is some $200 profit on the Air.



    Dell, Asus and MSI are all on a race to the bottom with their netbooks.

    But the only way to win this game is not to play.



    C.
  • Reply 150 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    No, I am proceeding from the assumption that if you offer them a reasonably specd. netbook with OS X - most people will buy that machine and will not buy a full-priced MacBook or MacBook Air. As someone who uses a Wind with OS X, it is a very convincing little machine.



    No, what you are assuming is that as long as Apple doesn't make a netbook, then people will continue to buy Macbooks instead, so Apple's profit center will be safe. And that's wrong as you yourself are saying. Did you buy a Macbook or Air? Will you? No. Because you already have a netbook running Leopard. So Apple won't be selling that high margin machine to you, will they? Make a little money or make no money, that's the real choice. Anybody who really needs the power of a Macbook will buy one, regardless of whether Apple sells a netbook. After all, weren't there people in this very thread who kept insisting that netbooks have keyboards and screens that are too small and CPUs that are too slow, so they would never buy one? So, no, "most people" will not simply choose netbook over Macbook. Those who value portability and value over performance and screen real estate would.
  • Reply 151 of 186
    I have OSX on all my Macs and no Windows on them. These are my work computers or upper level home computers. I don't give a rats ass what OS is on my netbook. What's so hard to understand about that? It's my little dinky netbook that I love, but I don't use it for anything I'd need a Mac for, and I'm not motivated to put a hacked OSX on it. It's a netbook. NETbook. For going on the NET. Firefox flies on it. It will never need other software. I-T-'S A N-E-T-B-O-O-K! No one bought one for running their business on!



    I never said Apple should make a netbook, just that because they don't I happily bought this Asus instead of a $1,000 laptop that I don't need another of. And believe me, I'm not an exception to the rule.



    This IS a dumb thread.
  • Reply 152 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Their sales are already being cannibalized. I know I would never buy a Macbook Air. Too big and clunky, even if it is thin, and way too expensive for what it is. A Macbook is even bigger and heavier and I would never even consider the slabs that are MBPs. Apple has lost my sale for a laptop. I have a good desktop machine on my desk with 8GB of RAM, 3.5TB of HD space and a 28" LCD that can take care of the heavy lifting, so I don't need a $1300+ laptop with me on the road.



    That may be your personal situation. But you do not represent the majority of the market. Most people are replacing their desktops with capable notebooks.





    Quote:

    Bollocks. You've been arguing all through this thread that a Macnetbook would be in an "awkward middle" that people don't need, so Apple not making money on it is not your point.



    You are taking what I said out of its proper context. I never said people did not want netbooks. I said they are not very profitable, and its questionable whether they will prove a long term market.



    They stand in an awkward middle because they are not as functional as notebooks or as portable as smartphones. They are not as profitable as notebooks or smartphones.
  • Reply 153 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    That may be your personal situation. But you do not represent the majority of the market. Most people are replacing their desktops with capable notebooks.









    You are taking what I said out of its proper context. I never said people did not want netbooks. I said they are not very profitable, and its questionable whether they will prove a long term market.



    They stand in an awkward middle because they are not as functional as notebooks or as portable as smartphones. They are not as profitable as notebooks or smartphones.





    maybe a fair point but 'profitable' as a term needs to be used in the context of Apple's usual margins.



    I'm sure Apple could make a 'profitable' netbook (with their normal margins) but it wouldn't be very competitive when viewed against a Wind.



    to get to a competitive pricepoint Apple's margins would need to be slashed down to single figures....hence why they won't do it.
  • Reply 154 of 186
    Yes



    Release your "inner Fester"
  • Reply 155 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    They stand in an awkward middle because they are not as functional as notebooks or as portable as smartphones. They are not as profitable as notebooks or smartphones.



    It's very funny. A few posts up, you say you agree wholeheartedly with Carniphage. Yet he says an Apple netbook would be too good and siphon off buyers of current Apple laptops while you say netbooks are no good at all. Do you agree with him or don't you?
  • Reply 156 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    No I never said Netbooks are no good at all. You keep only wanting to look at netbooks from a consumer point of view and not from a business point of view.



    If Apple sold a $500 netbook yes I agree people would buy them. Yes to some degree they would cannibalize Apple's more expensive notebooks. They would also be somewhat a drag on OS X development. How long would Apple have to continue to support them as technology moves on.



    Most consumers don't need a notebook, a netbook, and a smartphone. A notebook offers more functionality than a netbook and a smartphone is more portable than a netbook. Both notebooks and smartphones are viable and profitable products. Which leaves the netbook in an awkward middle.



    Because netbooks don't replace a more capable and profitable notebook, they also don't replace a more portable and profitable smartphone, from a business perspective are they a good long term investment. So far it does not appear that way.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    It's very funny. A few posts up, you say you agree wholeheartedly with Carniphage. Yet he says an Apple netbook would be too good and siphon off buyers of current Apple laptops while you say netbooks are no good at all. Do you agree with him or don't you?



  • Reply 157 of 186
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Smartphones are successful now because they became smaller and more powerful.



    And netbooks are notebooks getting smaller. They'll get more powerful as well. They are already powerful enough for what they are intended, but they'll get even more of full notebook functionality soon. New nVidia's ION platform has potential to revolutionize netbook segment - and that is only the beginning.



    Nah. I'm positive Apple could find same interest (in creating netbook) other big names did. Maybe even more. Each strong brand - HP, Toshiba, Dell... - has expensive, top-of-the-line models, but also cheap Celeron based consumer units; they already have whole market covered, so netbook in their case simply must hurt some of their existing sales. Apple, on the other side, has no consumer model - thus they have space to grow into. Mix that together with global financial crisis world is entering, and it is even more obvious. If they don't use the opportunity, that will be likely one of the worst business decisions they have ever made.



    Yeah we know Apple is all about image, but you can only that much prioritize image to common business sense.
  • Reply 158 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    And netbooks are notebooks getting smaller. They'll get more powerful as well. They are already powerful enough for what they are intended, but they'll get even more of full notebook functionality soon.



    The problem with netbooks is that they are not really smaller notebooks, but they are behaving like smaller notebooks. Its a moving target. Notebooks will continue to get more powerful and software will continue to be more demanding of hardware. To stay at a $500 and below price point netbooks will always be behind the curve.



    Smartphones are different because they have OS and apps specifically tailored to their form factor and limited hardware.





    Quote:

    Nah. I'm positive Apple could find same interest (in creating netbook) other big names did.



    It can be argued that Apple already has a netbook with the iPhone and Touch. They have their own appropriate OS, they are designed to be used on the web, and have over 13,000 applications.
  • Reply 159 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    They would also be somewhat a drag on OS X development. How long would Apple have to continue to support them as technology moves on.



    Hogwash. An Atom-based netbook requires no additional development compared to current Mac minis, Macbooks or iMacs. Unless you're saying Apple will suddenly decide to cut off support to all 2008 and earlier consumer Macs.



    Quote:

    Most consumers don't need a notebook, a netbook, and a smartphone. A notebook offers more functionality than a netbook and a smartphone is more portable than a netbook. Both notebooks and smartphones are viable and profitable products. Which leaves the netbook in an awkward middle.



    Most consumers don't need a notebook, period. Or a smartphone, for that matter. Or even a desktop. Apple's desktop sales are experiencing major drops year over year, so maybe you're saying those "unprofitable" machines will soon be discontinued.



    Quote:

    Because netbooks don't replace a more capable and profitable notebook, they also don't replace a more portable and profitable smartphone, from a business perspective are they a good long term investment. So far it does not appear that way.



    You keep saying this stuff but it's all nothing but your personal opinion. Just as you claim we can't possibly know what Apple execs are thinking, neither can you. Fact of the matter is virtually all computer journalists say netbooks are one of the fastest growing segment, if not an outright exploding segment of the market, and all of the top tier PC companies have climbed on board, except Apple. I'm tired of arguing with you. You sound like HMurchison all through 2006 and 2007 when he kept insisting that HD DVD was absolutely headed for victory and Blu-ray didn't stand a chance in hell. Nothing could convince him he was wrong, not even when Toshiba threw in the towel. I leave you to your opinion, which you will probably cling to even after an Apple announcement of such a device, except you'd probably insist "Well, yes, but it's not really a netbook."
  • Reply 160 of 186
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Hogwash. An Atom-based netbook requires no additional development compared to current Mac minis, Macbooks or iMacs. Unless you're saying Apple will suddenly decide to cut off support to all 2008 and earlier consumer Macs.



    It will be easier to continue to support older Core processors for years in the future. Atom processors are not likely to utilize technology in future OS updates.







    Quote:

    Most consumers don't need a notebook, period. Or a smartphone, for that matter. Or even a desktop. Apple's desktop sales are experiencing major drops year over year, so maybe you're saying those "unprofitable" machines will soon be discontinued.



    I'm not sure why you are bothering with the most consumers don't need a computer at all argument, that is totally besides the point.



    Apple's desktop sales are flat year over year because all of their desktops are months old and many people know are at the end of their refresh cycle. Desktop sales will spike once new models are released.







    Quote:

    You keep saying this stuff but it's all nothing but your personal opinion. Just as you claim we can't possibly know what Apple execs are thinking, neither can you. Fact of the matter is virtually all computer journalists say netbooks are one of the fastest growing segment, if not an outright exploding segment of the market, and all of the top tier PC companies have climbed on board, except Apple. I'm tired of arguing with you. You sound like HMurchison all through 2006 and 2007 when he kept insisting that HD DVD was absolutely headed for victory and Blu-ray didn't stand a chance in hell. Nothing could convince him he was wrong, not even when Toshiba threw in the towel. I leave you to your opinion, which you will probably cling to even after an Apple announcement of such a device, except you'd probably insist "Well, yes, but it's not really a netbook."





    Netbooks are a fast growing segment because they are cheap. A $500 computer is going to sell more than a $1000 computer.
Sign In or Register to comment.