Blu-ray vs. DVD/VOD (2009)

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  • Reply 41 of 668
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post


    Folks,



    I hate to break out the bad news, but HD video downloads through the Internet is a non-starter in the USA as it currently stands.



    I cite the following issues:



    1) Media service providers will have a compromise video quality to get HD video files to something resembling a reasonable size--if you don't mind a 3-4 GB download per movie!



    2) Even with Verizon's FIOS service, you need to seriously tie up the Internet connection for long periods of time to download movies, unless the connection is 50 megabits per second download speeds or faster (the number of homes with such fast connections are extremely small indeed).



    3) Internet Service Providers are imposing monthly download limits because a) they fear too much video downloading will overwhelm the current network infrastructure and 2) they want to discourage torrent traffic. This has the unfortunate side effect of making HD video downloads not very practical.



    4) The price of Blu-ray players and discs have nose-dived, especially within the last six months. We will see BD-Live enabled players from the major manufacturers costing well under US$200 by the end of March 2009, and the price of discs have dropped a lot lately, too.



    And yet some people just don't get this. They prefer their fantasy world where you can just download HD anything at will. Well that might happen someday but we'll all be older. There's just too many hurdles right now to make a mainstream purchasing concept of this viable. If you want quality HD on your TV now and for the foreseeable future BD is the only way to go.
  • Reply 42 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post


    I've seen HD video-on-demand and the picture quality didn't look that good on a 42" 1080p display--it was definitely inferior to the 1080p video you get from a Blu-ray player.



    But now that economies of scale have dropped Blu-ray costs dramatically, expect its acceptance to increase.



    You probably don't watch enough blu-ray contents. Not all 1080p contents are created equal. Regardless of being streamed on-demand nor being read on the optical disc, the quality of the transfer will play a bigger role on video playback quality. Obviously, higher bit rate available from a disc has a greater potential for high quality video, but you can also have high bitrate garbage from the poorly transferred materials. Same will apply to 720p contents. It would be ideal to have all the available blu-ray contents to have high quality transfer material and that may help demonstrate the full benefit of 1080p contents on discs. However, only fraction of the available titles are considered demo quality and about 90% of the available contents are slightly better than SD DVD contents. This is another notable issue hurting the hi-def adoption.



    One experience I can share is that I had seen SD content, 720p online content, and 1080p disc content of transformers. You can tell small but noticeable difference between SD vs. 720p & 1080p, but it's going to take a lot more efforts to see the difference between 720p vs. 1080p on all big screens. For enthusiasts, the smallest improvements are worth the admission, but it's not big enough bang for the buck for the norm. Well, it's your money after all. Go spend it as much as you can afford on the format and tell us how it really is.
  • Reply 43 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post




    ...



    Go spend it as much as you can afford on the format and tell us how it really is.



    But Bite, that's just what a number of have been doing, telling you that BD is the way to go for the best HD experience. First your mantra was HD-DVD was the better format, then VOD is the way to go and now, BD isn't good enough when compared to DVD to spend money on.
  • Reply 44 of 668
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    But Bite, that's just what a number of have been doing, telling you that BD is the way to go for the best HD experience. First your mantra was HD-DVD was the better format, then VOD is the way to go and now, BD isn't good enough when compared to DVD to spend money on.



    It seems as if you're having difficulty separating between disc formats vs. content formats. Anyway, I still do think HD-DVD is a better optical disc solution compared to Blu-ray as a optical storage solution in the means of HDM content delivery to consumers. Obviouly studios were more interested in Sony's bribery.



    In regards to SD vs. HD contents, not all HD contents improves the PQ/AQ as many transfer on 1080p contents use lesser quality PQ/AQ master and can hardly be considered as a HD demo material. But you know this already?



    Regardless of the outcome on the nextgen optical format war, I will much prefer HD contents because I am an AV enthusiasts and I do spend my money on it. I can share my $0.02 on the matter because I have purchased over 100 HDM's on HD-DVD & BD discs. BTW, I do not play games on my Blu-ray player, it's strickly for BD movies.
  • Reply 45 of 668
    HD movie playback's a side issue for me on a computer. What's long overdue though are Blu-ray burners. Anyone that's bought into HD video cameras probably has huge files of content stuck on their hard-drives which they're unable to burn or distribute.



    Ironic that Apple were so quick to support HD movie editing in Final Cut and iMovie HD and yet have waited so long to make this a practical option. iDVD has been made completely redundant without a BR burner as far as HD content goes.



    Same thing happened when Digital video was introduced. Took several years for DVD burners to become the standard.
  • Reply 46 of 668
    Most consumer HD cams shoot in HDV, which is a format that isn't any larger (data wise) than SD DV. As a matter of fact it takes less space. So I don't think that there is a huge issue with not being able to store or transport data from HiDef cams.
  • Reply 47 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    You probably don't watch enough blu-ray contents. Not all 1080p contents are created equal. Regardless of being streamed on-demand nor being read on the optical disc, the quality of the transfer will play a bigger role on video playback quality. Obviously, higher bit rate available from a disc has a greater potential for high quality video, but you can also have high bitrate garbage from the poorly transferred materials. Same will apply to 720p contents. It would be ideal to have all the available blu-ray contents to have high quality transfer material and that may help demonstrate the full benefit of 1080p contents on discs. However, only fraction of the available titles are considered demo quality and about 90% of the available contents are slightly better than SD DVD contents. This is another notable issue hurting the hi-def adoption.



    One experience I can share is that I had seen SD content, 720p online content, and 1080p disc content of transformers. You can tell small but noticeable difference between SD vs. 720p & 1080p, but it's going to take a lot more efforts to see the difference between 720p vs. 1080p on all big screens. For enthusiasts, the smallest improvements are worth the admission, but it's not big enough bang for the buck for the norm. Well, it's your money after all. Go spend it as much as you can afford on the format and tell us how it really is.



    Since Blu-Ray players are on sale for prices similar to Upscale DVD players, cost isn't an issue. Even catalog Blu-Ray discs are 14.99. Why not go with the HD format when the price difference is barely there.
  • Reply 48 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    It seems as if you're having difficulty separating between disc formats vs. content formats. Anyway, I still do think HD-DVD is a better optical disc solution compared to Blu-ray as a optical storage solution in the means of HDM content delivery to consumers. Obviouly studios were more interested in Sony's bribery.



    Bribery? Just a better business plan.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    In regards to SD vs. HD contents, not all HD contents improves the PQ/AQ as many transfer on 1080p contents use lesser quality PQ/AQ master and can hardly be considered as a HD demo material. But you know this already?



    Change the "many" to "some". Also see the PQ thread on avsform.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    Regardless of the outcome on the nextgen optical format war, I will much prefer HD contents because I am an AV enthusiasts and I do spend my money on it. I can share my $0.02 on the matter because I have purchased over 100 HDM's on HD-DVD & BD discs. BTW, I do not play games on my Blu-ray player, it's strickly for BD movies.



    Bite, I think I remember you mentioning in the 2008 thread that you were buying a lot of HD-DVD disc when they were on going-out-of-business pricing, $7.99 to $9.99. On your "over 100 HDM's", how many are actually BD?
  • Reply 49 of 668
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    Bribery? Just a better business plan.



    Change the "many" to "some". Also see the PQ thread on avsform.



    Bite, I think I remember you mentioning in the 2008 thread that you were buying a lot of HD-DVD disc when they were on going-out-of-business pricing, $7.99 to $9.99. On your "over 100 HDM's", how many are actually BD?



    Bribery and better business plans are not mutually exclusive.



    Blu-ray has no chance of overtaking DVD. None.



    I'll buy regardless because it will be the absolute best format to purchase

    LotR and other movies worthy of spending over $30 on.



    The hard truth is that upscaling technology keeps getting better and better. I see no reason why 720p video downloaded from the internet won't look equal to 1080p content on disc when ran through an optimized upscaler.



    Many companies are working on integrating improved upscaling tech into products.
  • Reply 50 of 668
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Bribery and better business plans are not mutually exclusive.



    Sure they're not, but if you remember correctly, it was the Toshiba and Microsoft as members of the HD DVD group that epitomized the bribery game...Paramount ring any bells? The hard truth is that Toshiba and Microsoft got owned by multitudes of companies, not just Sony.



    Quote:

    Blu-ray has no chance of overtaking DVD. None.



    I'll put this in the memory banks for later use. Just remember that YOU stated it. Your were wrong before with the outcome of this war, and well, you're wrong again.



    Quote:

    I'll buy regardless because it will be the absolute best format to purchase

    LotR and other movies worthy of spending over $30 on.



    The hard truth is that upscaling technology keeps getting better and better. I see no reason why 720p video downloaded from the internet won't look equal to 1080p content on disc when ran through an optimized upscaler.



    Many companies are working on integrating improved upscaling tech into products.



    Many, as in Toshiba, trying to peddle XDE. Many more are providing Blu-ray players. Blu-ray will overtake DVD, and they will do so eventually by CE companies only providing Blu-ray hardware and studios offering only Blu-ray content. It isn't going to happen overnight obviously, but just as DVD began to be seen everywhere, quietly replacing all those VHS tapes in your electronic stores and your local rental stores, so is Blu-ray currently--and the space given to Blu-ray on shelves I've seen is only increasing as time continues.



    And finally please allow me to share with you ten reasons why physical media owns downloadable content...



    http://formatwarcentral.com/2008/12/...al-media-owns/



    Quote:

    Let?s face it, before the last format war was even over a new one had begun, both formats had to fight an uphill battle, leaving the winner to fight alone for ?true? reign of the market. With a slew of pro digital download announcements, we here at Format War Central decided to give Physical Media the spot light by telling the world ?Hey, Physical Media Still Kick?s Ass!?.



    1) People Like Physical: Whether its a 12″ vinyl record or simply a DVD case, people have always wanted something they could hold, to tell them ?Hey, you own that!?. Stigma related to this ensures people will always have place in their hearts for years to come.



    2) Bit Rates: Consumers are a odd bunch when it comes to quality, some are fine with VCD type video playing back on their 55″ HDTV, others won?t settle for that, they want the best! Physical media is capable of reaching bit rates which currently wouldn?t be possible on digitally distributed content for a variety of reasons.



    3) You Can?t Sell Digital: If you?re sitting on 50 copies of Doom on HD DVD hoping they?ll be worth something one day, don?t bother. Depending on the title, you could get a hefty sum of money for it down the line. Unfortunately, the same would not apply to digital content, something tells us your 20GB Xbox 360 HDD filled with the third season of Heroes won?t hold much value 20 years down the line, infact a few months down the line and were sure the HDD would be worth more than the show! We wonder how much your colorized Casablanca VHS is worth?



    4) Unified: With Digital Downloads, almost everyone and their sister [company] are releasing a distribution device/platform, it?s a lot to take in! To add to the frustration none of them will work ?across the board?. Compared to lets say a Blu-ray player where you can play almost every format known to man, including Blu-ray, DVD, CD, HD DVD [combo player], VHS (Yes that?s right, VHS!) and more! Adding to the irony, many also have the ability to stream content from places like Netflix and soon Blockbuster!



    5) Restrictions Restrictions!: When Digital Downloads were ushered in it meant doom for users who imported their movies. Before region coding was the only issue to worry about, with downloads restrictions are but not limited to:
    *ISP Locks: In today?s day and age it?s not hard for providers to cut you off solely based on the country your connection is coming from.
    *D.R.M.X!: You may have heard of Digital Rights Management, but have you heard of Digital Rights Management Xtreme! before? With Digital Distributed content, DRM has been taken to new heights, giving you viewing windows, HDD locks, and a whole slew of other nasty surprises.
    *The Studio Equation: Believe it or not, studios only want you to give them money when they tell you too! Despite the digital market being capable of providing millions in revenue, studios choose to ignore the market or limit them. Theirs a reason why your countries XBLVM only has 10 HD movies while the American store has close to 1000
    6) So Easy Howard Stern Can Do It!: Pop in your disc/tape and play, simple isn?t it? Compared to downloads where you have to find the movie you want to watch, queue, optionally wait for it to download, find where the file is stored, and playback, if necessary take time out of your experience to watch the buffer bar load.



    7) Instant Access: It goes without saying, if you want a top quality video distributed digitally, streaming just won?t cut it.



    8) ?I always feel like somebody?s watching me?: If you tend to use your VUDU box or Bit Torrent Client (Legally?.we hope) at least once a day to watch your HD/HDX movies, odds are someone will take notice. We won?t blame you if you decide to watch Tropic Thunder while your neighbour gets fined and/or arrested for ?piracy?.



    9) It?s Not A Wired World!: Shockingly surprising yes we know, their are locations in this world that have have little to no Internet access at all (Even in North America!)! Despite not even having 56K access, there is a really good chance those locations have access to at least one form physical media to enjoy.



    10) No Back Up Plan: In a Democratic system, a company is capable of losing millions overnight, the unfortunate case for many is they are forced to shutdown. Suppose your favourite content provider is forced to shut down their servers for any reason, any content you bought would be gone! Any DRM server checks needed for content to work would fail, leaving you with an empty shell of a movie/album/game. Although some services, such as Microsoft Digital Locker (Confirmed to be shutting down this morning, August 2009) allow you to back up your data periodically, unfortunately this model is yet to applied to any other service.



  • Reply 51 of 668
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Marz is quoting someone critical of DRM to support Blu-Ray. Now there's irony for you!
  • Reply 52 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    Anyway, I still do think HD-DVD is a better optical disc solution compared to Blu-ray as a optical storage solution in the means of HDM content delivery to consumers.



    As someone who has spent money on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, my experience is that Blu is better.



    While the video and audio quality are on par*, the durability of HD-DVD was severely lacking. While I did not have any problems with purchased movies, about 70% of the movies rented via Netflix were not fully playable. A few even refused to load. Sure, these disks don't have an easy life, but few were as scuffed as a typical Netflix DVD. Some looked new, but still gave us problems.



    We have not had a single problem with Blu-Ray. The anti-scratch coating is fantastic; every disk is in flawless condition.



    As far as an "Optical Disk Solution" goes, they don't even compare...



    * While I have not done a back-to-back comparison with the same source material, both exceed the quality of my older 1080i rear-projection CRT display, and amplifier. However, the improvement over standard DVD, or broadcast HDTV is well worth the incremental cost in my home theater...
  • Reply 53 of 668
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Blu-ray has no chance of overtaking DVD. None.



    Hey murch, glad you survived the snow. I have mixed feelings about the BD/DVD thing. Personally I don't feel that to be successful BD has to replace DVD; it only needs a significant market share and studio support of the format.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I'll buy regardless because it will be the absolute best format to purchase

    LotR and other movies worthy of spending over $30 on.



    The hard truth is that upscaling technology keeps getting better and better. I see no reason why 720p video downloaded from the internet won't look equal to 1080p content on disc when ran through an optimized upscaler.



    These two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. Maybe, though, I'm missing something.
  • Reply 54 of 668
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    Hey murch, glad you survived the snow. I have mixed feelings about the BD/DVD thing. Personally I don't feel that to be successful BD has to replace DVD; it only needs a significant market share and studio support of the format.



    These two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. Maybe, though, I'm missing something.



    I barely survived friend. I live up the hill in Bothell and I couldn't make it 10ft out of my driveway due to tires that need to be replaced.



    Here's what worries me. It's not just Toshiba and XDE that are working on upscaling technology.



    http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=1233467



    Quote:

    Broadcom Corporation (Nasdaq: BRCM), a global leader in semiconductors for wired and wireless communications, today announced that it will demonstrate new super resolution technology for digital televisions (DTVs) that allows low resolution videos from the Internet, as well as standard definition (SD) content, such as standard DVDs, to be converted to high resolution for optimal viewing on large screen high definition televisions. With this new Broadcom® technology, TV manufacturers can significantly enhance the quality of low resolution Internet content for viewing on televisions that further positions the connected TV as the entertainment hub in the home. Broadcom will showcase this technology at CES 2009, demonstrating this dramatic upgrade from low resolution and SD to full high definition (FHD) display.





    Then there's Shomi Technologies



    http://www.shomitech.com/



    There will be undoubtedly others. I know everyone things i'm some jilted HD DVD lover but I came grips with that a long time ago. I just see a lot of effort in making today's SD content look good on larger screens. I've only got a 32" so DVDs still look great but my next screen will be around a 50" or so and I expect to see more of a difference.



    I see the change coming. I don't see Blu-ray as this indomitable force that sweeps DVD and downloads away. I see it as complementary technology. I can't wait to get my Blu-ray player because there are stellar titles that I must own but honestly my threshold for Blu-ray purchases will be higher. I figure if the cinematography is not first rate I'm not buying the BD version of the movie I'll get the DVD.



    My future is going to be



    Netflix- for DVD and Blu-ray rentals

    Apple TV for on demand stuff,

    Hulu

    Theater for can't miss movies.



    Comcast and FIOS TV have no future other than providing me a fat pipe so that I can get my content cheaper and easier elsewhere.



    Ahhhhh the democratic effects of the Internet.
  • Reply 55 of 668
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    Bribery? Just a better business plan.



    Perhpaps, and for Sony, even bigger bribery was part of the business plan.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    Change the "many" to "some". Also see the PQ thread on avsform.



    I guess, this really depends on what hardware everyone is using to play SD-DVD contents. These days, consumer/prosumer brand like Oppo makes pretty decent upscale DVD players from $150 to $250. Perhaps, having access to a decent upscaling DVD player may change your opinion.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post


    Bite, I think I remember you mentioning in the 2008 thread that you were buying a lot of HD-DVD disc when they were on going-out-of-business pricing, $7.99 to $9.99. On your "over 100 HDM's", how many are actually BD?



    Once again, you're having difficulty separating between disc formats vs. content formats.
  • Reply 56 of 668
    So hybrid DVD/Blu-Ray disks are ready to hit the market and will start to be used on major released in 2009. These are disks that are DVD on one side and Blu-Ray on the other and best of all will work on all existing players.



    I would expect for these to quickly become the standard for all new releases by the end of 2009 and thus killing any argument about Blu-Ray becoming the standard format for movie released for the next 5 years at least.
  • Reply 57 of 668
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Murphster View Post


    So hybrid DVD/Blu-Ray disks are ready to hit the market and will start to be used on major released in 2009. These are disks that are DVD on one side and Blu-Ray on the other and best of all will work on all existing players.



    I would expect for these to quickly become the standard for all new releases by the end of 2009 and thus killing any argument about Blu-Ray becoming the standard format for movie released for the next 5 years at least.



    Usually, one provides links for this kind of stuff. Never mind, I hit Google for you.



    Seems JVC has been promising this since 2004, but never delivered.



    Wired has the goods on the 2009 version of the tech, and 'Expensive' is the first word in the headline. Also, the Blu-Ray contents are being compressed further to fit on the disk, which was the problem numerous BR purists had with HD-DVD.



    TG Daily says the first hybrid release will happen only in Japan, and the multi-disc release will cost $406. That will certainly make headlines.
  • Reply 58 of 668
    Price like in any of these things is totally irrelevant. In is all about supply and demand. Like in 12 months time you will be able to buy Blu-Ray movies for the same price as todays DVD's. The Hybrid ones will too become affordable. Too many companies have far too much riding on the success of Blu-Ray not to make it work. These hybrid discs are being seen as a serious effort at bridging the gap and there are many people who will ensure that happens.
  • Reply 59 of 668
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    That doesn't make any sense.



    The Hybrid will offends price-sensitive DVD buyers while also offending people who want BR because "it's the best picture available" today.



    It's the worst of both worlds. It would make more sense to offer a two disc DVD/BR combos, since the current production process is likely cheaper, and the BR quality is still there.
  • Reply 60 of 668
    I want no part of hybrid discs, I have a Blu-Ray player on both tvs and my iMac. In a years time they will be just as cheap as DVD players and the discs will be too.
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