Citation needed - as far as I know Apple doesn't release individual product sales stats.
And it was such a failure that they refreshed it? Oh yeah, just like the cube
True, I don't have any solid stats by Apple, just empirical data collected by talking to the 3 Apple resellers in our area and an employee at the Apple store. That, and the numerous posts i've read on here by people who sell mac hardware, and tones of blogs, articles in magazines, websites, annalists, and tech tv programs. Then the observation that I don't see them anywhere at 'hotspots' like coffee shops and internet lounges, the library, on the ferries.
"lousy at best" was a term my Apple-go-to sales guy used. He said he's sold 3, and 1 was returned. That was a few weeks before Christmas.
Sorry, but I don't need to be spoon fed my information from Apple and worship it as doctrine. I trust my observations, and they have been pretty dead on for the last few decades. Just like when people here laughed when I said Appl would dip below $90 a share this last fall... Glad I sold in the $180's.
But hey... keep listening to the 'propaganda' marketing. I'll take your money.
Sorry... my reality distortion field failed there...
EVERYTHING APPLE DOES IS PERFECTION AND THEY ARE GODS. *obey obey obey
You must like to be a slave to Apple. Who buys a laptop without a removeable battery?
No swappable battery= NO SALE.
I am a proud owner of the last revision (2007 series) of the MBP 15"
and my 'removable-battery' just goes dead like 7 min after a full charge
and when i took it to apple they lQQKed at it and told me "too bad, sorry i can't help you; you have recycled your battery over 300 times and we can't give you a new one" (I also pruchased $350. AppleCare) and when i purchased it in dec 2007 it never held a 3 plus hr charge so i don't trust apple or AI with that 8hr crap and new tech BS until i see it... go TECH STUD RIGHT ON MAN
WTF Apple..you guys are starting to fall too far from the tree... now..
Think again. the reason we get 8 hours is because the 17" is a huge computer. you don't have nearly that real-estate on a 15" or 13". So you will not be able to get 2x the battery life on a 15" or 13" by the same method until battery tech improves a lot more. Maybe in a year or so it'll filter down, but until then I highly doubt it. Please think before insulting.
Who's insulting? I'm not insulting and it's a pitty you take it that way - are you 101% fan boy or something? Was it something else I mentioned perhaps?
Nonetheless, Apple could release better batteries, or better yet, software that allows the users to dethrottle the GPU/CPU when all they are doing is browsing the web. You could get 2+ hours buy reducing the GPU by 50% and CPU by 60+ if not 3 hours.
Think about it. When you're browsing the web, writing the next screen play, using iWork or word, you don't need a lot of power - this is the direction they should go with software if they can't create better batteries. In fact, I just read an article that states (i.e.) a Macbook Pro has lots of wasted space in the battery itself. Additionally, if they wanted to, they could also harness a battery strip, non removable, that goes around the whole case (bottom).
By the way, anyone know where to submit a patent idea for Apple laptops - I have some really good ideas for making the MB Pro line a workstation power house for those times when plugged in.
True, I don't have any solid stats by Apple, just empirical data collected by talking to the 3 Apple resellers in our area and an employee at the Apple store.
The exact same thing was said about phones! Why are there always a few morons who don't understand innovation? Do you really believe that you won't be able to replace the battery? This company continues to knock it out of the box year after freakin year! Name the superior notebook. Please name it. I'll wait...
That's right! Taking functionality away is innovation. I can't wait for them top take away that pesky screen. And the keyboard. Being an Apple, it will know what I want just by me laying on my hands. And Steve's wisdom will flow though my palms... Nirvana!
Assuming Apple is right about the specs, (or as right as they were about previous specs), then you are complaining that after five years, you will lose maybe 2 or 3 days of time getting your battery replaced? And further that you somehow might not see this coming??? Remotely possible I guess, but it's silly to make out like this is some kind of big deal "problem."
IMO, all of your scenarios seem to involve stupidity on the part of the person using the computer.
In one, the user takes a five year old 17" laptop to a crucial presentation after not noticing that the battery is not charging right for weeks previous to the presentation.
In another you assume that a person has travelled to a hugely important meeting, brought their laptop, left the power adapter at home and that the meeting place has no laptops and no adapters.
In a third, you assume the user is so immersed in their work (presumably in a park or on a train cause they are using battery power only), that they don't see the many low power warnings, the attempts of the system to shut itself down before data is lost etc. and continue to work until the power is lost and their presentation is ruined???
None of these nightmare scenarios sound very plausible to me in any kind of real world situation unless the user is seriously stupid, or incompetent. In that case they pretty much deserve what they get.
The typical rule for travelling to another town or country to do a presentation for instance, is to take the presentation with you in multiple forms and to expect *not* to be able to use your own laptop as half the time the hall where you are speaking doesn't have the right hook-ups or power or the kid doing the tech support isn't there etc. To go willy-nilly to an important meeting, not check that you have a power cord, not have the presentation saved on a disk etc. is just crazy and doesn't qualify (to me) as an actual problem. At best it's a problem entirely of your own creation.
Five years from now, when the 17" laptop's battery is failing and your main scenario could take place, your presentation data is likely going to be in the cloud or maybe even on your phone. Heck I did a presentation last month where I was missing some crucial data I left at home. I used "Back to My Mac" to go into my home computer remotely and dragged the files over. What are the odds that even more fantastical methods are available in five years time?
Ignoring the slights of "incompetence" and "Stupidity" (I am neither) - Sure - I accept that the examples I used were "hard case" examples - but thats when you notice the lack of flexibility the most - and I ask in return:
1) When was the last time that "Up to 8 hours" actually translatable into anywhere near 8 hours use at normal brightness, wifi and bluetooth on etc
2) Why lose flexibility of swappable batteries? I mean if I accept the premise that the examples I used were extreme cases - even so - why restrict yourself to having to plug in every 5 hours or so. I just dont understand why it was a neccessary direction to take - when it seems that these batteries - with a little inguineuity on apples' behalf (and lets face it they are famed for it) - they could have turned this 8 hour battery into a removable 8 hour battery...?
I'm just ready for the Macbooks and 15" Macbook Pros to have this technology in them.
I have had 3 different notebook computers of my own in my lifetime and I have never bought an extra battery for any of them. Who is really going to go that long without any access to a power source? Especially now that you can go up to 8 hours on a single charge.
The Apple fanboys defending fixed internal batteries were also the ones defending the original iMac's round hockey puck mouse, claiming how much superior it was to a regular mouse. These people have never criticized a single thing that Apple does. Whatever Apple does is always 100% right. Apple fanboys were also the ones claiming:
There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.
Apple will not make a cell phone.
Nobody needs native third party applications on the iPhone. Web apps are really, really sweet.
Macs never crash, so who cares about preemptive multitasking or memory protection?
Who needs automatic memory allocation on the Mac? Just click Get Info and change the number yourself.
I'm just ready for the Macbooks and 15" Macbook Pros to have this technology in them.
I have had 3 different notebook computers of my own in my lifetime and I have never bought an extra battery for any of them. Who is really going to go that long without any access to a power source? Especially now that you can go up to 8 hours on a single charge.
8 "marketing hours" is not enough to warrant making the battery unremovable. A nonremovable battery needs need to hit double digit real usage hours, like 12-18 before Apple can convince people who are not Apple fanboys.
Is Apple now manufacturing batteries, replacing Sony? If so, then Apple owns the technology, but also owns the risk of failure and recall? If Apple is making the batteries, does their design culture reduce the chance of latent defects, or does their lack of experience increase the risk?
"The battery in the 17-inch MacBook Pro should be replaced only by an Apple Authorized Service Provider."
So while some people may be able to do it themselves, Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty. As long as Apple voids the warranty for do-it-yourself battery replacement, it means that people are effectively unable to replace the battery. If Apple were to remove this restriction and provide instructions for do-it-yourself battery replacement, then your attempt at sarcasm would not look so Apple fanboy-ish.
Your battery will not just die after 300 cycles but it will not hold as much charge as it used to. My MBP is 2 months old and already at 65 cycles. This means one cycle a a day and maybe I will have to replace my battery after one and half year of usage.
Interesting. The battery on my 15" Macbook Pro just died at 220 cycles. If I unplugged it at 100% charge it would last for about 10 minutes, then die. The Genius told me that 200 was the limit and I needed to buy a new one.
True, but the last several times I've flown and thought I would top off my laptop at the airport, I found hundreds of people sitting on the floor of every single outlet in every gate. Unless you fly very early morning or very late night, it's hard to find a free outlet.
You must like to be a slave to Apple. Who buys a laptop without a removeable battery?
No swappable battery= NO SALE.
To be fair to this fellow, the 17 MBP battery has not really been tested out yet. I'll reserve judgement until people put this battery through real world use. Hopefully we can get a realistic 5 to 6 hours worth of power and hopefully the battery will remain healthy for at least 3 years.
Interesting. The battery on my 15" Macbook Pro just died at 220 cycles. If I unplugged it at 100% charge it would last for about 10 minutes, then die. The Genius told me that 200 was the limit and I needed to buy a new one.
funny I have like 339 cycles on my macbook and still hold a full charge, but I make sure to take good care of my battery.
Sorry - I really have to disagree with those who seriously entertain the idea that a non-replaceable battery is a good idea in a professional computer. Professionals use these devices as tools to do real work. On planes. On trains. On the move. If the battery runs out thats it - have to find a power point. The iphone design makes it difficult to use as someone who uses a phone all day during the workday. I have had to buy 2 iphones just so that I can make it through the day using the iphone as my primary phone. To use a non-replaceable battery in an energy-hungry monster like the 17" macbook pro seems really crazy. At the end of its charging cycle when it only lasts 2 - 3 hours you will have to wait to have the battery changed over - what so your primary work machine is out of action for 2 - 3 days or longer just so a battery can be changed? If you are finishing off a last minute piece of work and the battery dies you cant quickly swap in a new one? If it dies during a presentation in front of a room full of clients and you cant swap a battery in and have left the power cable at home?
Non-replacable batteries are a disastrous direction for apple - if they are marketing to mobile professionals. All of these situations arise in real-world usage. what they should be targeting is cheap and long-lasting replaceable versions of this high-density Li-polymer battery. By all means make the cheap laptops use these batteries - but for pros who actually use them to make a living - sorry - but we need the flexibility and ability to get out of trouble with a new battery on the fly - however rare its required.
Stop being so snobby. There are a lot of professionals who aren't in the amazon rain forest all day and thus are close to a power outlet SOMETIME during an 8-hour stint. I'd venture to say most. And having the extra battery life is probably way, way more valuable to them than the ability to carry around 30 pounds worth of extra batteries to get it to 12 hours.
Apple can't be all things to all people. Until they license their systems, we're stuck with their decisions. And this one seems like a really good one for Apple and most of their users. Yes, there will be part of the market that is under-served by this decision, but it's still the right call.
To be fair to this fellow, the 17 MBP battery has not really been tested out yet. I'll reserve judgement until people put this battery through real world use. Hopefully we can get a realistic 5 to 6 hours worth of power and hopefully the battery will remain healthy for at least 3 years.
No need to be fair to teckstud. You may reserve judgement on the battery issue but young mr teckie sure wont. He thinks just about everyone visiting this forum is a moron. He complains wildly and incessantly about most things Apple do and produce. In fact his complaints closely mirror standard Windows fundamentalist views. The day he crosses over he will be a much happier person.
8 "marketing hours" is not enough to warrant making the battery unremovable. A nonremovable battery needs need to hit double digit real usage hours, like 12-18 before Apple can convince people who are not Apple fanboys.
No, it needs 12-18 to convince people who are Apple bashers. Practical folks will line up for this thing. You don't have to be an "Apple fanboy" to see the value in 50% more capacity and 3x the lifetime in a smaller enclosure, in exchange for having to plug in at least once during the workday.
Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty.
Um, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 might have something to say about that (like, no they can't void your warranty just for upgrading with 3rd party parts).
Comments
Citation needed - as far as I know Apple doesn't release individual product sales stats.
And it was such a failure that they refreshed it? Oh yeah, just like the cube
True, I don't have any solid stats by Apple, just empirical data collected by talking to the 3 Apple resellers in our area and an employee at the Apple store. That, and the numerous posts i've read on here by people who sell mac hardware, and tones of blogs, articles in magazines, websites, annalists, and tech tv programs. Then the observation that I don't see them anywhere at 'hotspots' like coffee shops and internet lounges, the library, on the ferries.
"lousy at best" was a term my Apple-go-to sales guy used. He said he's sold 3, and 1 was returned. That was a few weeks before Christmas.
Sorry, but I don't need to be spoon fed my information from Apple and worship it as doctrine. I trust my observations, and they have been pretty dead on for the last few decades. Just like when people here laughed when I said Appl would dip below $90 a share this last fall... Glad I sold in the $180's.
But hey... keep listening to the 'propaganda' marketing. I'll take your money.
Sorry... my reality distortion field failed there...
EVERYTHING APPLE DOES IS PERFECTION AND THEY ARE GODS. *obey obey obey
You must like to be a slave to Apple. Who buys a laptop without a removeable battery?
No swappable battery= NO SALE.
I am a proud owner of the last revision (2007 series) of the MBP 15"
and my 'removable-battery' just goes dead like 7 min after a full charge
and when i took it to apple they lQQKed at it and told me "too bad, sorry i can't help you; you have recycled your battery over 300 times and we can't give you a new one" (I also pruchased $350. AppleCare) and when i purchased it in dec 2007 it never held a 3 plus hr charge so i don't trust apple or AI with that 8hr crap and new tech BS until i see it... go TECH STUD RIGHT ON MAN
WTF Apple..you guys are starting to fall too far from the tree... now..
Think again. the reason we get 8 hours is because the 17" is a huge computer. you don't have nearly that real-estate on a 15" or 13". So you will not be able to get 2x the battery life on a 15" or 13" by the same method until battery tech improves a lot more. Maybe in a year or so it'll filter down, but until then I highly doubt it. Please think before insulting.
Who's insulting? I'm not insulting and it's a pitty you take it that way - are you 101% fan boy or something? Was it something else I mentioned perhaps?
Nonetheless, Apple could release better batteries, or better yet, software that allows the users to dethrottle the GPU/CPU when all they are doing is browsing the web. You could get 2+ hours buy reducing the GPU by 50% and CPU by 60+ if not 3 hours.
Think about it. When you're browsing the web, writing the next screen play, using iWork or word, you don't need a lot of power - this is the direction they should go with software if they can't create better batteries. In fact, I just read an article that states (i.e.) a Macbook Pro has lots of wasted space in the battery itself. Additionally, if they wanted to, they could also harness a battery strip, non removable, that goes around the whole case (bottom).
By the way, anyone know where to submit a patent idea for Apple laptops - I have some really good ideas for making the MB Pro line a workstation power house for those times when plugged in.
Thanks
True, I don't have any solid stats by Apple, just empirical data collected by talking to the 3 Apple resellers in our area and an employee at the Apple store.
That isn't empirical, that is here-say.
The exact same thing was said about phones! Why are there always a few morons who don't understand innovation? Do you really believe that you won't be able to replace the battery? This company continues to knock it out of the box year after freakin year! Name the superior notebook. Please name it. I'll wait...
That's right! Taking functionality away is innovation. I can't wait for them top take away that pesky screen. And the keyboard. Being an Apple, it will know what I want just by me laying on my hands. And Steve's wisdom will flow though my palms... Nirvana!
This just sounds nonsensical to me.
Assuming Apple is right about the specs, (or as right as they were about previous specs), then you are complaining that after five years, you will lose maybe 2 or 3 days of time getting your battery replaced? And further that you somehow might not see this coming??? Remotely possible I guess, but it's silly to make out like this is some kind of big deal "problem."
IMO, all of your scenarios seem to involve stupidity on the part of the person using the computer.
In one, the user takes a five year old 17" laptop to a crucial presentation after not noticing that the battery is not charging right for weeks previous to the presentation.
In another you assume that a person has travelled to a hugely important meeting, brought their laptop, left the power adapter at home and that the meeting place has no laptops and no adapters.
In a third, you assume the user is so immersed in their work (presumably in a park or on a train cause they are using battery power only), that they don't see the many low power warnings, the attempts of the system to shut itself down before data is lost etc. and continue to work until the power is lost and their presentation is ruined???
None of these nightmare scenarios sound very plausible to me in any kind of real world situation unless the user is seriously stupid, or incompetent. In that case they pretty much deserve what they get.
The typical rule for travelling to another town or country to do a presentation for instance, is to take the presentation with you in multiple forms and to expect *not* to be able to use your own laptop as half the time the hall where you are speaking doesn't have the right hook-ups or power or the kid doing the tech support isn't there etc. To go willy-nilly to an important meeting, not check that you have a power cord, not have the presentation saved on a disk etc. is just crazy and doesn't qualify (to me) as an actual problem. At best it's a problem entirely of your own creation.
Five years from now, when the 17" laptop's battery is failing and your main scenario could take place, your presentation data is likely going to be in the cloud or maybe even on your phone. Heck I did a presentation last month where I was missing some crucial data I left at home. I used "Back to My Mac" to go into my home computer remotely and dragged the files over. What are the odds that even more fantastical methods are available in five years time?
Ignoring the slights of "incompetence" and "Stupidity" (I am neither) - Sure - I accept that the examples I used were "hard case" examples - but thats when you notice the lack of flexibility the most - and I ask in return:
1) When was the last time that "Up to 8 hours" actually translatable into anywhere near 8 hours use at normal brightness, wifi and bluetooth on etc
2) Why lose flexibility of swappable batteries? I mean if I accept the premise that the examples I used were extreme cases - even so - why restrict yourself to having to plug in every 5 hours or so. I just dont understand why it was a neccessary direction to take - when it seems that these batteries - with a little inguineuity on apples' behalf (and lets face it they are famed for it) - they could have turned this 8 hour battery into a removable 8 hour battery...?
I have had 3 different notebook computers of my own in my lifetime and I have never bought an extra battery for any of them. Who is really going to go that long without any access to a power source? Especially now that you can go up to 8 hours on a single charge.
There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch video on an iPod.
Apple will not make a cell phone.
Nobody needs native third party applications on the iPhone. Web apps are really, really sweet.
Macs never crash, so who cares about preemptive multitasking or memory protection?
Who needs automatic memory allocation on the Mac? Just click Get Info and change the number yourself.
Apple will never switch to Intel processors.
I'm just ready for the Macbooks and 15" Macbook Pros to have this technology in them.
I have had 3 different notebook computers of my own in my lifetime and I have never bought an extra battery for any of them. Who is really going to go that long without any access to a power source? Especially now that you can go up to 8 hours on a single charge.
8 "marketing hours" is not enough to warrant making the battery unremovable. A nonremovable battery needs need to hit double digit real usage hours, like 12-18 before Apple can convince people who are not Apple fanboys.
Do you really believe that you won't be able to replace the battery?
http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html
"The battery in the 17-inch MacBook Pro should be replaced only by an Apple Authorized Service Provider."
So while some people may be able to do it themselves, Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty. As long as Apple voids the warranty for do-it-yourself battery replacement, it means that people are effectively unable to replace the battery. If Apple were to remove this restriction and provide instructions for do-it-yourself battery replacement, then your attempt at sarcasm would not look so Apple fanboy-ish.
From Apple website: "For Apple notebooks with removable batteries ? such as the MacBook, MacBook Air, and 15-inch MacBook Pro ? a properly maintained battery is designed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity at 300 full charge and discharge cycles. You may choose to replace your battery when it no longer holds sufficient charge to meet your needs."
Your battery will not just die after 300 cycles but it will not hold as much charge as it used to. My MBP is 2 months old and already at 65 cycles. This means one cycle a a day and maybe I will have to replace my battery after one and half year of usage.
Interesting. The battery on my 15" Macbook Pro just died at 220 cycles. If I unplugged it at 100% charge it would last for about 10 minutes, then die. The Genius told me that 200 was the limit and I needed to buy a new one.
Airports have plenty of power outlets as well.
True, but the last several times I've flown and thought I would top off my laptop at the airport, I found hundreds of people sitting on the floor of every single outlet in every gate. Unless you fly very early morning or very late night, it's hard to find a free outlet.
The Apple fanboys defending fixed internal batteries were also the ones defending the original iMac's round hockey puck mouse
The Hockey puck mouse sucked
I defend the internal battery.
You must like to be a slave to Apple. Who buys a laptop without a removeable battery?
No swappable battery= NO SALE.
To be fair to this fellow, the 17 MBP battery has not really been tested out yet. I'll reserve judgement until people put this battery through real world use. Hopefully we can get a realistic 5 to 6 hours worth of power and hopefully the battery will remain healthy for at least 3 years.
Interesting. The battery on my 15" Macbook Pro just died at 220 cycles. If I unplugged it at 100% charge it would last for about 10 minutes, then die. The Genius told me that 200 was the limit and I needed to buy a new one.
funny I have like 339 cycles on my macbook and still hold a full charge, but I make sure to take good care of my battery.
Sorry - I really have to disagree with those who seriously entertain the idea that a non-replaceable battery is a good idea in a professional computer. Professionals use these devices as tools to do real work. On planes. On trains. On the move. If the battery runs out thats it - have to find a power point. The iphone design makes it difficult to use as someone who uses a phone all day during the workday. I have had to buy 2 iphones just so that I can make it through the day using the iphone as my primary phone. To use a non-replaceable battery in an energy-hungry monster like the 17" macbook pro seems really crazy. At the end of its charging cycle when it only lasts 2 - 3 hours you will have to wait to have the battery changed over - what so your primary work machine is out of action for 2 - 3 days or longer just so a battery can be changed? If you are finishing off a last minute piece of work and the battery dies you cant quickly swap in a new one? If it dies during a presentation in front of a room full of clients and you cant swap a battery in and have left the power cable at home?
Non-replacable batteries are a disastrous direction for apple - if they are marketing to mobile professionals. All of these situations arise in real-world usage. what they should be targeting is cheap and long-lasting replaceable versions of this high-density Li-polymer battery. By all means make the cheap laptops use these batteries - but for pros who actually use them to make a living - sorry - but we need the flexibility and ability to get out of trouble with a new battery on the fly - however rare its required.
Stop being so snobby. There are a lot of professionals who aren't in the amazon rain forest all day and thus are close to a power outlet SOMETIME during an 8-hour stint. I'd venture to say most. And having the extra battery life is probably way, way more valuable to them than the ability to carry around 30 pounds worth of extra batteries to get it to 12 hours.
Apple can't be all things to all people. Until they license their systems, we're stuck with their decisions. And this one seems like a really good one for Apple and most of their users. Yes, there will be part of the market that is under-served by this decision, but it's still the right call.
To be fair to this fellow, the 17 MBP battery has not really been tested out yet. I'll reserve judgement until people put this battery through real world use. Hopefully we can get a realistic 5 to 6 hours worth of power and hopefully the battery will remain healthy for at least 3 years.
No need to be fair to teckstud. You may reserve judgement on the battery issue but young mr teckie sure wont. He thinks just about everyone visiting this forum is a moron. He complains wildly and incessantly about most things Apple do and produce. In fact his complaints closely mirror standard Windows fundamentalist views. The day he crosses over he will be a much happier person.
8 "marketing hours" is not enough to warrant making the battery unremovable. A nonremovable battery needs need to hit double digit real usage hours, like 12-18 before Apple can convince people who are not Apple fanboys.
No, it needs 12-18 to convince people who are Apple bashers. Practical folks will line up for this thing. You don't have to be an "Apple fanboy" to see the value in 50% more capacity and 3x the lifetime in a smaller enclosure, in exchange for having to plug in at least once during the workday.
Apple won't let them do it without voiding their warranty.
Um, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 might have something to say about that (like, no they can't void your warranty just for upgrading with 3rd party parts).
Next!