Considering Graphics Drivers now have around the same amount of source code as an operating system. The complexity of Graphics Drivers are really getting out of hand.
It is no wonder why apple is having trouble getting drivers right.
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
Except that Apple only has a handful of computers that actually use Nvidia graphics, whereas Windows has to work with a multitude of configurations.
It's either Nvidia's fault, or Apple's poor QC, but for the cost of the actual HW, it should work better, controlling the SW and HW is supposed to make things much simpler.
Except that Apple only has a handful of computers that actually use Nvidia graphics, whereas Windows has to work with a multitude of configurations.
It's either Nvidia's fault, or Apple's poor QC, but for the cost of the actual HW, it should work better, controlling the SW and HW is supposed to make things much simpler.
The interesting thing is that the Nvidia and ATI solution for Windows (especially gaming) bugginess is either (a) live with it, (b) upgrade to the latest 176.21 driver. Failing which, upgrade to 176.25 driver, see how it goes. (c) still having problems? downgrade to 175.55 driver. (d) see part (a), repeat.
In some cases, ATI gaming cards (or Nvidia, though it seems to a lesser extent) for some games will show sharp drops in frame rates - and hence some users have a negative impression of ATI drivers.
ATI and Nvidia show acceptable graphics performance in the PC world because the solution is almost always "upgrade to the latest graphic drivers", where graphic drivers are updated almost every month or even a few times a month.
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
If only we had ATIs software smarts combined with NVidias hardware smarts. On the Mac Pro, the low cost ATI card outperforms the higher cost NVidia one in OS X, through driver strength alone. The ATI retail cards used to have a proper System Preferences box for the video card, which NVidia has never had. Despite all this, NVidias hardware is usually faster.
As many people have said on these boards Apple's plus is the tight integration of hardware and software. But reading about the constant trouble on the graphics side (although using dated hardware), is there some design hurdle in OS X or is Apple just clueless how to write good drivers?
there are currently 240 replies. The main problem seems to be that the on-board graphics chip appears to drop or corrupt the video signal to some external monitors (including some Apple models).
My experience with a new MacBook5,1 is that my LG L246WP monitor will behave like it is changing display modes (blanks the screen for ~6 seconds) randomly (a couple dozen times a day) when connected with the mini DP to VGA adapter and at the native resolution of 1920x1200. Reducing the resolution eliminates the problem at the cost of a fuzzy display. I lucked out in that the problem does not appear when connected with the mini DP to DVI adapter at native resolution (some have not been so lucky).
Some have reported success in eliminating the problem by swapping mini DP to VGA adapters. Others by using the shareware product SwitchResX to change monitor frequency from 59.x to 60.0 Hz. Several are stuck waiting for Apple to resolve the problem.
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
But with their limited hardware support, they have much less things to test before giving green light (or not). In this case, it seems their quality control testers failed miserably.
<<In general, Apple Discussions forums have been buzzing with users reporting trouble with their new notebook's graphics performance for some time. *In one MacBook Pro thread, user munchnstuf reported, "My new MacBook Pro display screen is blinking or flickering every few minutes now. *I've only noticed it when I've switched to the integrated 9400M graphics processor. *I don't recall seeing any blinks when using the discrete 9600M GPU.">>
I'm using the new aluminum MacBook (not the Pro) and having the same problem with the video cutting out, but only on my external monitor. (The monitor works fine on my Windows system downstairs, so there's no problem with the monitor.)
What I haven't seen discussed is the possibility that it's the mini-DVI to VGA adapter, not the graphics chip, that's causing the problem. Isn't this the adapter that has some digital-rights management chip embedded in the adapter cable? Maybe that's the problem instead of the graphics chip?
In any event, the problem seems to be with the video output, not with the chip itself; I've had no problems with the built-in LCD even running it for 4+ hours on battery power. That's probably a clue to what's going on.
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
The interesting thing is that the Nvidia and ATI solution for Windows (especially gaming) bugginess is either (a) live with it, (b) upgrade to the latest 176.21 driver. Failing which, upgrade to 176.25 driver, see how it goes. (c) still having problems? downgrade to 175.55 driver. (d) see part (a), repeat.
In some cases, ATI gaming cards (or Nvidia, though it seems to a lesser extent) for some games will show sharp drops in frame rates - and hence some users have a negative impression of ATI drivers.
ATI and Nvidia show acceptable graphics performance in the PC world because the solution is almost always "upgrade to the latest graphic drivers", where graphic drivers are updated almost every month or even a few times a month.
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
The good old days are gone. Once Apple went PC hardware, they opened up a can of whoopass. Their decision to go with Nvidia is also interesting, apart form thier Top end cards the rest of thier hardware has been lacking for a few years now, poor choice apple.
Well at least you can get the latest driver for xp running in bootcamp
Unfortunately Mac users aren't the target audience anymore. The iPod switchers that are quickly becoming the majority have much lower standards.
Bingo....the new macbooks/pros are now aimed at the person who says 'oww this is so good looking, will go perfectly with my new ipod" And they will use 20% potential of thier new purchase. All glossy displays are aimed at this new market.
My all time favorite mac was the 12" powerbook Pro, you could actually call it a pro machine and it was amazing for its time. Pro's these days are just 15" Macbooks with firewire.
I also would not say they have much lower standards, they have much lower understanding/grasp of technology....and are attracted to bling bling...
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
So? Apple decided to do hardware and software for a reason... Because it just works... Guess what? It hasn't. They have had so many hiccups along the way with hardware.
Apple should take the extra time to make it right.
The good old days are gone. Once Apple went PC hardware, they opened up a can of whoopass. Their decision to go with Nvidia is also interesting, apart form thier Top end cards the rest of thier hardware has been lacking for a few years now, poor choice apple.
Apple's own choices made it almost impossible for Moto and IBM to get any kind of return on their investment making competitive PowerPCs. I don't think its the hardware as much as Apple catching a bit of the Microsoft syndrome. They realized that they are basically playing with a captive audience who will find it very difficult to switch to something else, the ones who are here as a quazi-religion are going to take what ever they are given anyway and the switchers aren't going to look much beyond window dressings and are used to bugs anyhow, so why put as much effort in if the revenue steam isn't going to change?
When it comes to graphics drivers (and maybe drivers in general), Apple has really lost its mojo.
They lost it when they started partnering with NVIDIA. Every Mac I've ever owned with NVIDIA has glitches. Every Mac I've ever owned with ATI has been rock solid.
I'm also having the occasional screen flicker to external display but only when using the 9400M & only when plugged in via VGA adapter, DVI works great.
Also, I discovered that, for some strange reason, when using the 9400M if I plug in my Polaroid LCD using VGA and then plug in my DVI monitor again the lid sensor stops being able to put my Mac to sleep. At first I thought this was a sensor issue until I tried to change graphics processors once after having this issue. It logged out, went to blue (like it does when switching normally), but then went back to aqua with mouse cursor, then back to blue. It does this over & over again but does finally go to login. When I login & open preferences, it has dedicated graphics selected now but has an exclamation saying I need to logout.
I know lid sensor is work as well because I can select sleep from the Apple menu & then when opening the lid it wakes up fine. Very strange.
Comments
It is no wonder why apple is having trouble getting drivers right.
This is always why I wait at least a few days for other people to install software updates first.
What does one do now? Can I/should I uninstall this? Or just wait for another update?
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
Except that Apple only has a handful of computers that actually use Nvidia graphics, whereas Windows has to work with a multitude of configurations.
It's either Nvidia's fault, or Apple's poor QC, but for the cost of the actual HW, it should work better, controlling the SW and HW is supposed to make things much simpler.
Except that Apple only has a handful of computers that actually use Nvidia graphics, whereas Windows has to work with a multitude of configurations.
It's either Nvidia's fault, or Apple's poor QC, but for the cost of the actual HW, it should work better, controlling the SW and HW is supposed to make things much simpler.
The interesting thing is that the Nvidia and ATI solution for Windows (especially gaming) bugginess is either (a) live with it, (b) upgrade to the latest 176.21 driver. Failing which, upgrade to 176.25 driver, see how it goes. (c) still having problems? downgrade to 175.55 driver. (d) see part (a), repeat.
In some cases, ATI gaming cards (or Nvidia, though it seems to a lesser extent) for some games will show sharp drops in frame rates - and hence some users have a negative impression of ATI drivers.
ATI and Nvidia show acceptable graphics performance in the PC world because the solution is almost always "upgrade to the latest graphic drivers", where graphic drivers are updated almost every month or even a few times a month.
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
Why give them excuses, they charge a fortune for their devices and claim they just work
New MacBook connect to external VGA display screen flash
http://discussions.apple.com/message...sageID=8605577
there are currently 240 replies. The main problem seems to be that the on-board graphics chip appears to drop or corrupt the video signal to some external monitors (including some Apple models).
My experience with a new MacBook5,1 is that my LG L246WP monitor will behave like it is changing display modes (blanks the screen for ~6 seconds) randomly (a couple dozen times a day) when connected with the mini DP to VGA adapter and at the native resolution of 1920x1200. Reducing the resolution eliminates the problem at the cost of a fuzzy display. I lucked out in that the problem does not appear when connected with the mini DP to DVI adapter at native resolution (some have not been so lucky).
Some have reported success in eliminating the problem by swapping mini DP to VGA adapters. Others by using the shareware product SwitchResX to change monitor frequency from 59.x to 60.0 Hz. Several are stuck waiting for Apple to resolve the problem.
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
But with their limited hardware support, they have much less things to test before giving green light (or not). In this case, it seems their quality control testers failed miserably.
I'm using the new aluminum MacBook (not the Pro) and having the same problem with the video cutting out, but only on my external monitor. (The monitor works fine on my Windows system downstairs, so there's no problem with the monitor.)
What I haven't seen discussed is the possibility that it's the mini-DVI to VGA adapter, not the graphics chip, that's causing the problem. Isn't this the adapter that has some digital-rights management chip embedded in the adapter cable? Maybe that's the problem instead of the graphics chip?
In any event, the problem seems to be with the video output, not with the chip itself; I've had no problems with the built-in LCD even running it for 4+ hours on battery power. That's probably a clue to what's going on.
--Geoff ([email protected])
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
As someone on these boards said before:
"Mac Users don't take shit."
# graphics update kills #
###############
(obvious since 1.0 update)
flickering snow disappeared after 10.5.6 comboupdate having been installed
As someone on these boards said before:
"Mac Users don't take shit."
Unfortunately Mac users aren't the target audience anymore. The iPod switchers that are quickly becoming the majority have much lower standards.
The interesting thing is that the Nvidia and ATI solution for Windows (especially gaming) bugginess is either (a) live with it, (b) upgrade to the latest 176.21 driver. Failing which, upgrade to 176.25 driver, see how it goes. (c) still having problems? downgrade to 175.55 driver. (d) see part (a), repeat.
In some cases, ATI gaming cards (or Nvidia, though it seems to a lesser extent) for some games will show sharp drops in frame rates - and hence some users have a negative impression of ATI drivers.
ATI and Nvidia show acceptable graphics performance in the PC world because the solution is almost always "upgrade to the latest graphic drivers", where graphic drivers are updated almost every month or even a few times a month.
Unfortunately Nvidia looks guilty of expecting Mac users to suck it in and accept this kind of thing. Which is very difficult for Mac users to accept, because, yeah, the PC-Windows way of dealing with graphics drivers seems ridiculous compared to the stability of the Mac.
The good old days are gone. Once Apple went PC hardware, they opened up a can of whoopass. Their decision to go with Nvidia is also interesting, apart form thier Top end cards the rest of thier hardware has been lacking for a few years now, poor choice apple.
Well at least you can get the latest driver for xp running in bootcamp
Unfortunately Mac users aren't the target audience anymore. The iPod switchers that are quickly becoming the majority have much lower standards.
Bingo....the new macbooks/pros are now aimed at the person who says 'oww this is so good looking, will go perfectly with my new ipod" And they will use 20% potential of thier new purchase. All glossy displays are aimed at this new market.
My all time favorite mac was the 12" powerbook Pro, you could actually call it a pro machine and it was amazing for its time. Pro's these days are just 15" Macbooks with firewire.
I also would not say they have much lower standards, they have much lower understanding/grasp of technology....and are attracted to bling bling...
In Apples defense. It has a lot more on its plate considering it actualy does the computer and the software
So? Apple decided to do hardware and software for a reason... Because it just works... Guess what? It hasn't. They have had so many hiccups along the way with hardware.
Apple should take the extra time to make it right.
The good old days are gone. Once Apple went PC hardware, they opened up a can of whoopass. Their decision to go with Nvidia is also interesting, apart form thier Top end cards the rest of thier hardware has been lacking for a few years now, poor choice apple.
Apple's own choices made it almost impossible for Moto and IBM to get any kind of return on their investment making competitive PowerPCs. I don't think its the hardware as much as Apple catching a bit of the Microsoft syndrome. They realized that they are basically playing with a captive audience who will find it very difficult to switch to something else, the ones who are here as a quazi-religion are going to take what ever they are given anyway and the switchers aren't going to look much beyond window dressings and are used to bugs anyhow, so why put as much effort in if the revenue steam isn't going to change?
When it comes to graphics drivers (and maybe drivers in general), Apple has really lost its mojo.
They lost it when they started partnering with NVIDIA. Every Mac I've ever owned with NVIDIA has glitches. Every Mac I've ever owned with ATI has been rock solid.
I'm also having the occasional screen flicker to external display but only when using the 9400M & only when plugged in via VGA adapter, DVI works great.
Also, I discovered that, for some strange reason, when using the 9400M if I plug in my Polaroid LCD using VGA and then plug in my DVI monitor again the lid sensor stops being able to put my Mac to sleep. At first I thought this was a sensor issue until I tried to change graphics processors once after having this issue. It logged out, went to blue (like it does when switching normally), but then went back to aqua with mouse cursor, then back to blue. It does this over & over again but does finally go to login. When I login & open preferences, it has dedicated graphics selected now but has an exclamation saying I need to logout.
I know lid sensor is work as well because I can select sleep from the Apple menu & then when opening the lid it wakes up fine. Very strange.