Amended Psystar complaint vs. Apple repeats copyright claims

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevielee View Post


    Well let me be the first one on this post to wholeheartedly disagree with all of the Apple Devotees who seem to think that it's fine and dandy fro Apple to control what I do with a product after I've paid for that product - like OSX, or an iPhone etc.



    It IS fine and dandy for Apple to decide this. Computer to car analogies are ridiculous, but I will have to use them:



    If you buy a new Ford car and, let's say, replace the shocks with 3rd-party out-of-spec ones, Ford reserves the right to revoke your warranty right. And they will.



    Apple warranties and offers support for Mac OS X running on Apple-labelled computers, not on any other hardware. So, if you decide to run Mac OS X on any other computer, you're on your own. I am not against people running Mac OS X on any hardware they want, but these people should know they are waiving away any warranty and support rights.



    There's also an issue about protecting Apple's image. If people assume Mac OS X will run fine and dandy on any hardware and they have problems, they will feel that it's Apple's problem, that Apple is the one to blame. Obviously, Apple is not responsible for making their products compatible with anything they don't want to.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevielee View Post


    If I want to install OSX, or any other OS that I purchased on any, and I do mean any machine that I also purchased and own, then I will do so - and no company is going to tell me I can't - even with the treat of copyright infringement.



    That's not the point. The true point here is that you can do everything you want with it, but you can't blame Apple if anything goes wrong. Just imagine you wanted to stick your iPhone up your butt and you get an electric shock? Who's to blame?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevielee View Post


    I have a jail-broken iPhone and I run OSX via Hackintosh on a custom built PC. I also have hacked my iPod away from the crappy iTunes 8 ATM machine - where you can't even turn off the blasted "Gapless" idiocy.



    If you think there's something wrong with a product, you can always decide to:
    1. Not buy it; or

    2. Return the product within a few days, after you tried it and got unsatisfied.

    Also, if you have to reverse-engineer or modify copyrighted parts of any product to achieve your goal [of making the product work they way you think it should], it's just plain wrong. The EULA, which you agreed to, does not permit this. If you have a problem with that, it's not the right product for you. Get an open source solution instead.



    So, I think it's pretty obvious that Apple has the right to pursue legal action against Psystar and every other company that tries to disrupt their business model.





    Cheers,

    _iCeb0x_
  • Reply 42 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    You don't think there is any software installation done to make the OS recognize that pressure sensitive screen as an input device, including using it in lieu of a keyboard? If anything, the Modbook is a perfect example for Psystar to use in their defense.



    What if Axiotron decided to take Mac minis, and install the guts into a new mini-tower case with PCI slots and drive bays and sold THAT as a value added product? Would that be OK? How would it be different? It's OK to modify the hardware and resell it, but not the software? Again if that's the claim, if anything it strengthens Psystar's case.



    Adding software isn't the problem. Taking out and replacing software is since you are no longer reselling the OS X, but a derivative of it. Note that the GPL used by many open source codes specifically allows this use as long as the new derivative code is released into the open source community. This is why Apple returns the Webkit code back to the community.



    Yes, I think the copyright and EULA would allow Axiotron to modify the Mac minis and resell them, provided they come with a valid license for the software included on them.



    None of this strengthens Psystar's argument since they are not using any original Mac components. Look at the EULA for the hardware Apple sells - it is very different than the software EULA, so yes, there are definitely differences in the allowed use.



    There are actually many instances of specific use licenses in the software world. Think about educational software. The license specifically states that it may only be used in an educational setting. Microsoft is very clearly restricting the use of software purchased under this license. Or, should MS only sell one version at the higher price?
  • Reply 43 of 140
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    Except that they neglect to disclose the terms of the "license" until after purchase. Since I already bought and paid for the item, I simply don't recognize their right to ask me for agree to anything after the fact. I bought it, I own it, and I can sell it if I want to.



    The law says that if you don't agree the license terms then you can return it even if you opened it (remember the blogger who returned Windows Vista CD because he did not wish to agree to the terms?). In earlier ruling, the judge already said that people who purchase Mac OS DVD already know that they are only allowed to install it on Apple machines. So, unless the buyer is an idiot your argument is not valid. People who buy Mac OS DVD already know that they are only allowed to install it on Apple computer.
  • Reply 44 of 140
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quevar View Post


    I would be worried about these issues if they were actually in question. Go check out the Modbook:

    http://www.axiotron.com/index.php?id=modbook



    Which pretty much supports Pystar in that there is a market for Mac OS/X outside of Apple branded products.

    Quote:



    They have been modifying and reselling MacBooks for years and Apple has never said anything about them. They've even been at some of the Apple tradeshows. Why hasn't Apple gone after them? Because they are not violating the copyright of the software.



    Baring a legal agreement it isn't really clear that ModBook would be acceptable considering Apples attitude of the last few weeks.

    Quote:

    They are modifying the hardware and selling the OS intact in agreement with the EULA. Psystar on the other hand is violating the copyright by modifying and selling a derivative of the work (OS X).



    Well that is what isn't clear here. They do have some rights with respect to interoperability. Since they are doing a minimal amount of work to circumvent restrictions with respect to installation of the software it is not clear that there is an issue. Besides what gets installed is Mac OS, it really isn't a derivative.

    Quote:



    Have you ever read the EULA for a ball bearing? If they even exist, I am guessing that they are pretty unrestrictive, so that is an unrelated example.



    The point is that eula don't exist for such because they don't have law to support them. The software industry seems to be the only industry involved in shrink wrapped legal agreements even when many points in those agreements are not legal. Not to mention the very validity of and agreement you did not agree to in writing.

    Quote:



    1. Not in question here.



    2. Not in question here.



    3. Not in question here.



    It would be more useful if you would explain why it is not in question. Especially considering how Apple has run wild with the copyright sword of late.

    Quote:

    4. Why would it be unserviceable?



    Depends upon what you want to service. If access is so restricted that you can't get to system and configuration files then servicing will be difficult. At another level if you want to build diagnostic software you may need access to system features that are restricted.

    Quote:

    Take it to any mechanic. Apple has not once implied that an individual cannot do what they want with their machine.



    Oh but they have just this week when they announced that jailbreaks violate the DMCA. That can be taken as the first step in the surpression and censorship of information related to such activities. This is not a stretch either as doing what you want with a machine implies being able to communicate about it.



    In any event there isn't much difference between a jailbreak and installing Mac OS on different hardware. Also Apples position is a clear attack on the individuals right here.

    Quote:

    As for warranties if a company goes belly up, that is a good question to ask, but very different than the issue at hand.



    Not really. If you don't have the freedom to inspect and modify your device how can you reasonable expect to work on or repair it? Or to get anybody to do it for you. If Apple is successful in using the DMCA to make distribution of software tools to access your machine illegal then how would you maintain it if they went belly up. Moreso how would you maintain it economical in the current fianacial environment.

    Quote:

    5. No, I don't. If Apple was

    Do you want to live in a world where the only possible improvements to an item come from the manufacture?



    I'm not sure I follow you here as this is exactly what I'm concerned about. That is systems so artificially restricted that the manufacture is the only source of upgrades Or parts. We have already seen this ignorance with respect to ink jet printers, we don't need to see wild expansion beyond this.

    Quote:



    6. No, I don't, which is why I generally hate all cell phone makers in the US.



    Agreed! But you can't have this point of view and also support Apples current tactics with respect to Pystar. When it comes right down to it, it is the same basic problem. That is artificial restrictions being placed on software execution on hardware. It is about the use of copyright and other laws to restrict people from getting all the value they can out of hardware they own.

    Quote:

    Every cell phone company has a lock in. So Apple make an agreement with AT&T to only sell their phone through them. It's debatable if that is good for consumers or not.



    There is no debate to it at all, it is very bad for consumers. Now I've been very much against Apples approach to Pystar but I'm actually surprised that they have had such a free hand with iPhone. Even with iPhone the software restrictions are excessive.

    Quote:

    They can offer more services than they could have otherwise, but there are certain restrictions. I don't like AT&T, so I haven't bought an iPhone yet. Is this clear before I buy the phone? Yes. Am I forced to buy it? No. They have offered me something and I don't want it, so I don't buy it. As a consumer, I have a choice. Just like I have a choice about what computer to buy. Do I want an Mac that happens to run OS X or do I want another hardware companies computer that runs Windows? I have choices.



  • Reply 45 of 140
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    That's certainly the claim that the software companies keep making, thankfully the courts are increasingly ruling against such nonsense.



    When I buy a physical product at a store, I sign no lease or license agreement. I flat out purchased a physical product. It's mine to do what ever I want with it. Home depot can't tell me what I can or cannot build with the lumber I buy, Apple cannot tell me what computer I can install their OS onto. Home Depot cannot stop me from building something with that lumber and turning around and selling that new product for my own profit, Apple can't stop me from installing that OS onto a PC I build and turning around and selling that.



    The courts already ruled that software is covered under the copyright laws and that software is licensed not sold. I guess you also want to be able to buy a book, take out some chapter, add them to your own text, and then resell it for profit. I really think you should read this to understand how and why software is covered under copyright laws.
  • Reply 46 of 140
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    That's certainly the claim that the software companies keep making, thankfully the courts are increasingly ruling against such nonsense.



    When I buy a physical product at a store, I sign no lease or license agreement. I flat out purchased a physical product. It's mine to do what ever I want with it. Home depot can't tell me what I can or cannot build with the lumber I buy, Apple cannot tell me what computer I can install their OS onto. Home Depot cannot stop me from building something with that lumber and turning around and selling that new product for my own profit, Apple can't stop me from installing that OS onto a PC I build and turning around and selling that.



    No one is telling you what you can do with the "physical product." They are telling you what you can do with their copyrighted material. Being an unauthorized distributer of copyrighted material is one of those that companies tend to fight against. Just because you bought Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code doesn't mean you can rewrite parts and then reprint the book. That examples seems absurd, but what do you think Psystar is doing? They aren't selling an unopened boxed copy of OS X, they are selling a hacked copy of OS X installed (read: copied and reprinted) on their HDD.



    Apple hasn't gone after the OSx86 Project that started since Intel Macs came to fruition. They also haven't made any move toward EFiX. The former is just hobbyists, the latter is completely legal because they aren't altering Apple's code or acting as a reseller, they are just tricking the OS into thinking the HW is a Mac.
  • Reply 47 of 140
    quevarquevar Posts: 101member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Which pretty much supports Pystar in that there is a market for Mac OS/X outside of Apple branded products.



    True, there is a market, but that doesn't mean that they can use Apple's intellectual property to make themselves money without Apple's permission to use Apple's intellectual property.



    Quote:

    Baring a legal agreement it isn't really clear that ModBook would be acceptable considering Apples attitude of the last few weeks.



    When has Apple ever said anything about not being allowed to modify their hardware? The suit with Psystar is specifically about modifying their software and the hardware it can be installed on.



    Quote:

    Well that is what isn't clear here. They do have some rights with respect to interoperability. Since they are doing a minimal amount of work to circumvent restrictions with respect to installation of the software it is not clear that there is an issue. Besides what gets installed is Mac OS, it really isn't a derivative.



    Apple's EULA is exactly like Microsoft saying that you can only use educational licensed software in an educational realm. Are you saying that someone who can purchase it at the educational price should be able to buy educational software and then sell it at full price?



    Quote:

    The point is that eula don't exist for such because they don't have law to support them. The software industry seems to be the only industry involved in shrink wrapped legal agreements even when many points in those agreements are not legal. Not to mention the very validity of and agreement you did not agree to in writing.



    So, I never signed anything saying that murder is bad, so I should be able to kill as I so please? There are many contracts that are implicit. You agree to many things when you buy an airline ticket and get on the plane, but you never sign anything.



    Quote:

    Oh but they have just this week when they announced that jailbreaks violate the DMCA. That can be taken as the first step in the surpression and censorship of information related to such activities. This is not a stretch either as doing what you want with a machine implies being able to communicate about it.



    This is a different issue that the Psystar issue. I agree that jailbreaking violating the DMCA is a bad sign.



    Quote:

    In any event there isn't much difference between a jailbreak and installing Mac OS on different hardware.



    There is a big difference. One is about installing their software on something outside the bounds of the license AND selling it for profit. Jailbreaking is about personal use, which is a serious problem for consumers and I would be very worried about that.
  • Reply 48 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nagromme View Post


    But Apple would incur HUGE development and support expenses (and slow OS X development to a crawl) if they had to support--and test for--a zillion different PC boxes. None of which were designed along WITH the OS--one of OS X's strengths.



    There is no designed for Mac OS X anymore. Everything under the hood consists of stock PC parts. The only difference between a Dell laptop and one of Apple's products are the enclosure (does not need drivers), EFI firmware instead of BIOS, and the operating system.
  • Reply 49 of 140
    bsenkabsenka Posts: 799member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    I guess you also want to be able to buy a book, take out some chapter, add them to your own text, and then resell it for profit.



    I most certainly can do exactly that if I wanted to. The publisher already made their profit from the original copy. What I do with it after that is none of their business. There are companies that do this very thing. Here's one example of a company that turned printed books into journals: http://bookjournals.com/
  • Reply 50 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Who is capable of doing the sleuthing to track down the money behind Psystar and their endless legal strategizing?



    Look at the law firm. Their either doing it pro bono to increase their notoriety or have agreed to part of the settlement. Both of which are commonplace in high profile cases.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wheelhot View Post


    Owning a Mac is like owning a piece of artwork, if you do not appreciate the artwork, dont buy it. Have you seen any other company so dedicated into designing their products? Will there be any other company as crazy as apple to mill out a notebook casing out of a single block of aluminum, nope I dont think so. Apple does crazy stuffs cause Jobs cares about art a lot!.



    Unfortunately artwork is just about all that they are nowadays. Those who actually use their Macs and love the OS are at the mercy of those who only want something pretty to look at.
  • Reply 51 of 140
    End User License Agreements are for people who actually use the computer. I.E. - the END user. The final point in the distribution. Psystar is not the end user of the system. They have NO license from Apple. Do they even have a re-distribution agreement with Apple? Betting not.



    Mac OS X has never been marketed as a stand alone product. Mac OS X is always sold as part of an Apple Computer or else it is an upgrade to an existing Apple computer running MAC OS X. BTW, notice the name - MAC OS X (not just OS X)



    Just because people want MAC OS X to be a stand-alone product doesn't make it one.



    Unfortunately, it may be that upgrades will need to be distributed in a different manner. No more walking into a retail store and buying the upgrade. Or long lines on the upgrade release day. Software will be distributed via internet in a very lonely and unsocial manner.



    I really dislike Psystar. They act like a bunch of whiny kids who want to what they want - just because!
  • Reply 52 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    I most certainly can do exactly that if I wanted to. The publisher already made their profit from the original copy. What I do with it after that is none of their business. There are companies that do this very thing. Here's one example of a company that turned printed books into journals: http://bookjournals.com/



    No.



    You can't do this, it's illegal in exactly the same way as originally described. The journals you point to merely recycle old paper, not the actual printed works. They use old book covers that are *out* of copyright to make interesting covers for blank paper journals. Not the same thing at all.
  • Reply 53 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    There is no designed for Mac OS X anymore. Everything under the hood consists of stock PC parts. The only difference between a Dell laptop and one of Apple's products are the enclosure (does not need drivers), EFI firmware instead of BIOS, and the operating system.



    Again, this is just not true.



    Most Apple computers use custom Apple-designed motherboards. The fact that they use intel chips and the fact that some of the parts are the same as in other computers does not equate to them being "the same as a Dell" at all.



    People keep pushing this meme but it isn't true.
  • Reply 54 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    I most certainly can do exactly that if I wanted to. The publisher already made their profit from the original copy. What I do with it after that is none of their business. There are companies that do this very thing. Here's one example of a company that turned printed books into journals: http://bookjournals.com/



    Your analogy is poor and not thought out. If what you wanted ever came to pass, there wouldn't be much art, writing or music on the planet.



    If I take your idea to the extent that you are proposing, I could go to the store and buy a paperback copy of Lord of the Rings and then, since it is my "right," could change the character names, replace the ending and change the title. I could then sell this book under my name and a different title and the Tolkien estate could do nothing but sit back and watch me make money. You are having trouble with analogies.
  • Reply 55 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Again, this is just not true.



    Most Apple computers use custom Apple-designed motherboards. The fact that they use intel chips and the fact that some of the parts are the same as in other computers does not equate to them being "the same as a Dell" at all.



    People keep pushing this meme but it isn't true.



    CPU, North bridge, south bridge, GPU, firewire controller, audio processor, network controller, wireless chipset, etc. Not all, but just the major ones. The only thing that are really Apple designed are the fan controllers and the shape of the pCB board. But hey, if pretending we're still in the PowerPC era where all the chips were custom made for the given machine makes you feel better, go ahead.
  • Reply 56 of 140
    I swear that some of you posting on this thread must really be "Apple Insiders" - the way that you are bleating on and on in defense of Apples's defenseless, anti-consumer, anti-choice and anti-trust market monopoly in regards to OSX compatible hardware. Do some of you have stock in Apple as well?



    As a certified Apple Tech and freelance Consultant, I have bought and sold hundreds of thousands of dollars in Apple's hardware and software. I have no problems respecting Apple's right to protect their branded and designed products (software/hardware) from being illegally copied or patent compromised by another company without due compensation, or prior authorization from Apple.



    What I am strongly objecting to - is Apple's position that only Apple can sell the hardware that can run it's software exclusively. And the fact that Apple is purposely writing code into it's OS that specifically locks the user of their software into using ONLY Apple's own proprietary hardware (closed loop business model), is precisely why the EU ( as well as other parts of the world outside the US ) will not legally recognize Apple's absurd monopoly as it now stands.



    We all know what Apple is really afraid of here - real competition in the hardware market. Once Apple loses it's current stranglehold over the hardware that can run it's OS and applications, then the whole "we don't do $500 computers" arrogance is kaput overnight.



    Apple has put out some great machines/hardware like the current model iMacs and the intel Mac Mini (badly in need of a upgrade), and they have also sold some really overpriced and overhyped stinkers- like the cheaply made, underspeced, recently discontinued, plastic Macbooks, or the bad logic board (ram slot failures) G4 Powerbooks and the whole G5 Powermac fiasco - especially the "Liquid Cooled" Dual processor models that sold for almost 3K and are now fancy doorstops or sculpture for many unlucky owners.



    I know that there is a boatload of crappy PC hardware out there with just as many if not more issued concerning quality and performance - so there is no perfect alternative hardware for running OSX, but at least one should have the option (CHOICE) as a consumer in purchasing or building a computer that can run any OS that is sold in the retail market - especially when they all basically on on the very same hardware.



    In this economy, Apple will not be able to continue forcing us OSX users/fans to purchase ONLY their "high-end" computers and other hardware without resistance. We WILL hack, modify, or reconfigure any and all products to suit our needs as an end user/owner. OSX can run as easily and efficiently on a generic $500 laptop or desktop, as well as a top-of-the-line Mac Pro. Apple knows this - that's why they are fighting so hard too keep the hardware loop closed by modifying OSX - purposely limiting it's compatibility to only Apple branded machines. OSX flies on an AMD quad core, and is quite respectable on a $399 Asus EEE PC.



    http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/dreams-ca...-pc-323279.php.



    Psystar might not win their battle against the Big Bad Apple and it's phalanx of lawyers, but they are another necessary chink in Apple's Anti-Competitive hardware armor that will eventually have to open up and liberate OSX from Apple only equipment.



    OSX may be the best OS available right now and I'd be willing to pay more for it, but not if it's crippled and closed - opening it up will only make it better and more widely used, Apple's hardware revenue be damned.
  • Reply 57 of 140
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsenka View Post


    I most certainly can do exactly that if I wanted to. The publisher already made their profit from the original copy. What I do with it after that is none of their business. There are companies that do this very thing. Here's one example of a company that turned printed books into journals: http://bookjournals.com/



    No you can not. The site you pointed out to uses old books with expired copyright. think you should go and read carefully what is said on their website and if you don't believe me try contacting them and ask them if they can do one of the current copyrighted books. As I said earlier, you need to go read about the copyright law. There are many educational websites that explains what copyright laws means such as Wikipedia.
  • Reply 58 of 140
    qrmqrm Posts: 9member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevielee View Post


    Psystar might not win their battle against the Big Bad Apple and it's phalanx of lawyers, but they are another necessary chink in Apple's Anti-Competitive hardware armor that will eventually have to open up and liberate OSX from Apple only equipment.



    OSX may be the best OS available right now and I'd be willing to pay more for it, but not if it's crippled and closed - opening it up will only make it better and more widely used, Apple's hardware revenue be damned.



    Ok, then...



    How would you describe what Psystar is doing? My understanding is that they have assembled a PC and are modifying a reportedly purchased copy of Mac OS X to run on that hardware and then reselling the result as an OS X computer. In other words, it would appear that they are purchasing a licence to Mac OS X, modifying it the software, reselling it, and then denying Apple's claims of copyright violation. This was after their original complaint that Apple deliberately crippling Mac OS X to not run on their hardware was somehow illegal.



    You clearly disagree strongly with Apple's choice of business model and would rather see Apple focus on its system software exclusively (and thus compete directly with Microsoft?). Apple chooses instead to remain a hardware company. That is their choice and one for which they will be judged ultimately by their shareholders (of which I am not one). So far, in these difficult times, Apple seems to be doing better than others.



    I too am frustrated by the lack of a lower-priced headless desktop or an upgrade to the languishing Mac Mini. I would like to think that Apple will respond to that market but, in the meantime, I keep my G4 MDD dual 867 running, primarily in the role of a home media server.
  • Reply 59 of 140
    bsenkabsenka Posts: 799member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    No you can not. The site you pointed out to uses old books with expired copyright. think you should go and read carefully what is said on their website and if you don't believe me try contacting them and ask them if they can do one of the current copyrighted books. As I said earlier, you need to go read about the copyright law. There are many educational websites that explains what copyright laws means such as Wikipedia.



    Yes I can. I can rip apart a book, write in it, glue things to it, then turn around and sell it. The copyright holder has zero case against such a thing, because I paid them for their product.



    As a holder of several registered copyrights, I'm quite aware of copyright law especially with regards to publishing. There is NO restriction on value added reselling of legally purchased works.



    The Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books (for example) that the journal maker in my link uses are absolutely NOT expired copyrights.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ouroboros View Post


    Your analogy is poor and not thought out. If what you wanted ever came to pass, there wouldn't be much art, writing or music on the planet.



    If I take your idea to the extent that you are proposing, I could go to the store and buy a paperback copy of Lord of the Rings and then, since it is my "right," could change the character names, replace the ending and change the title. I could then sell this book under my name and a different title and the Tolkien estate could do nothing but sit back and watch me make money. You are having trouble with analogies.



    What you describe is absolutely legal, and does nothing to infringe on the profits of the Tolkien estate. Every one of your books sold requires the purchase of one of theirs.
  • Reply 60 of 140
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Again, this is just not true.



    Most Apple computers use custom Apple-designed motherboards. The fact that they use intel chips and the fact that some of the parts are the same as in other computers does not equate to them being "the same as a Dell" at all.



    People keep pushing this meme but it isn't true.



    But it is very true. I get sick of this argument that Apple's hardware is superior to everyone else.



    Apple may use their own custom designed motherboards but this is something that everybody does to when standard motherboard sizes will not fit into their design of case or shell. What you are really saying is that Apple have cut a motherboard to fit the shape of a MBP's insides. Big deal. It is still a standard PC motherboard, the same standard motherboard that PC vendors have been using for years. Every other component of an Apple computer is shared with the PC world, they are all made in factories in the far East, you crack open a MBP and you will find components that are shared with everyone else windows PC's.
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