That's ridiculous- where do you get your facts from? Most everybody does their taxes these days and most people will/should be keeping budgets.
That's bull sh*t.
I do my own taxes - and for some other folks - and do databases - and custom spreadsheets with formulas that sometimes get too big to fit in a single cell - and a number of years ago when I was also running a cash register - I used to be able to do 240 "words" a minute on the 10 key (according to Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor) - but after using almost exclusively notebooks for the past 4 or 5 years - I have found that when I do get to a machine with a full keyboard including 10 key - that I forget to use it.
So I think the post was not suggesting that "numbers" are not important to people - but that the for most users the loss of the 10 key is really not that big a deal.
Count me in. Sure, I like having access to the keypad and the extra keys, but it's nice to be able to bring the mouse closer, especially if you're spending long days and nights working at the flat screen.
I change pointing devices from time to time to help reduce some aspects of repetitive stress injury. Switching keyboards is a convenient additional option. I also prefer the reliability of wired keyboards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnqh
I have to say I asked for this one.
The keyboard with num pad is just not ergonomical.
For the best typing position, the keyboard should be centered with the monitor. However, with the extended portion (about 7 inches), that pushes my mouse pad way to the right. Basically, I needed about 15 inches more space to the right of my typing position. On a small desk, that is impossible.
That's why I much prefer the MB and MBP keyboard. Some PC laptops comes with the built-in keypad, that would force the user to be tilted while working.
I even looked for third party USB keyboards without the num pad. Bought a ViewSonic one but it is crap. I have to say this new keyboard is ideal for me. Just wished it is cheaper.
I do my own taxes - and for some other folks - and do databases - and custom spreadsheets with formulas that sometimes get too big to fit in a single cell - and a number of years ago when I was also running a cash register - I used to be able to do 240 "words" a minute on the 10 key (according to Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor) - but after using almost exclusively notebooks for the past 4 or 5 years - I have found that when I do get to a machine with a full keyboard including 10 key - that I forget to use it.
So I think the post was not suggesting that "numbers" are not important to people - but that the for most users the loss of the 10 key is really not that big a deal.
Pecking at numbers at the top of your keyboard is just not more efficient than a numbered keyboard. I swear some people will just drink Koolaid and die if Apple tells them to.
What baffles me the most is... they changethe keyboard for they desktop machines, yet they don't "upgrade" it to the level of the new notebook keyboards.
The white-keyed keyboard of my 1st gen Alu iMac is on par with that of my white MacBook, and it's pretty good, but the keys on the new unibody notebooks feel much more solid, and give an overall higher impression of quality.
So basically, the Apple keyboard you get with your $5000 Mac Pro is of lesser quality than that of a $1200 MacBook.
Not to mention the black keys would match the rest of the machine a lot better.
Let me add to the chorus calling for more of the same. This is a good start, but it is just a start.
Apple needs both wired and wireless keyboards with a multi-touch trackpad and left/right mouse buttons taking the place of the numeric keypad. It would be a joy to use and, if made a bit smaller than the current keyboard with numeric keypad, it'd be compact enough to take along with a laptop. And since it means we don't need a mouse, our desks and laptop bags would be less cluttered.
Even more important, it'd let us get away from the number one problem of working while reclining. Here's how it works now. We elevate the laptop with screen, so we can recline rather than hunch over. For input, we add a separate keyboard in our lap for typing but--wait, how can we manage that pesky mouse? Whatever we do, it's always a nuisance, slipping off whatever contrived platform we have onto the floor. This new keyboard puts the mouse where it belongs, as a track pad with the keyboard on our lap. No slip, slip, sliding away.
Bonus points to Apple if it adds these features:
1. A bluetooth version that talks to iPhone and iPod touches, with the trackpad working with the touchscreen--a light touch to give us an on-screen cursor and a firmer touch makes a selection. That same feature could work with our computers, giving us a touch screen without a fingerprint-covered display.
2. The trackpad also works as a graphics tablet, again reducing clutter on desks. It wouldn't replace the professional ones from Wacom, but it'd do for the rest of us who'd never buy a tablet.
I want to have space to type properly and not a tiny keyboard like that.
The letters are the same size on all keyboards I believe. Only the arrow keys are smaller.
I don't really see the point though ? as someone mentioned earlier, why haven't they updated them to be more like the unibody notebooks is any ones guess.
This looks like a point for Microsoft to mock Apple with, if ever there was one.
And what exactly would their "mocking" consist of?
While I see this as a silly decision on Apple's part (at least making the small one standard on iMac), I can't imagine how MS (or really any PC company) would run with it.
I think this move to get rid of the num. pad and decrease the width of the keyboard is a good sign that Apple might be prepping a multi-touch glass trackpad for their desktop line. By have it be smaller, one could attach (via usb) a trackpad to either end of the keyboard (lefty or righty).
Don't blow this off, I think its gonna happen in some manner. Multi-touch is still non-existent on their desktop line, a glaring signal to me.
Thoughts?
I think the reason for the lack of numeric keypad is that by far most people do not use it. If you don't use it it is much better to have a small keyboard. The biggest advantage is that your keyboard takes less space on your desk. Apple addressed this when they brought out the wireless keyboard. If you don't use it a keypad is a pain as you have to move your hand much further to reach the mouse. Inefficient and bad for RSI victims, I believe.
If you need the numeric keypad it is available at no extra cost. You can't have wire less but this is a small tradeoff imo.
As far as a universal programable 'touch' keyboard goes - way too expensive for now but I would love to see it.
That's ridiculous- where do you get your facts from? Most everybody does their taxes these days and most people will/should be keeping budgets.
That's bull sh*t.
Not sure why you are even showing up this morning since you've been on my ignore list for a day or two now ...
In any case, wrong again. What I said was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
The average consumer "doesn't do numbers" and doesn't even track their finances in any appreciable way by using financial software or doing spreadsheets.
In what universe does having to do your taxes once a year qualify as a consumer doing any appreciable amount of number crunching on a regular basis? And yes, most people *should* use budgets, but most don't.
You also totally miss my point as usual. I am in *favour* of the number pad, although I wold like it as a separate accessory.
What I was doing there was describing a series of logical reasons why Apple might want to eliminate it given their market and the use people make of the thing. This involves putting yourself in other people's shoes and *thinking* as opposed to being a biased fool who resorts to a quick profanities aimed at total strangers who's ideas they don't understand.
And what exactly would their "mocking" consist of?
While I see this as a silly decision on Apple's part (at least making the small one standard on iMac), I can't imagine how MS (or really any PC company) would run with it.
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or conveniently without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
What I was doing there was describing a series of logical reasons why Apple might want to eliminate it given their market and the use people make of the thing. This involves putting yourself in other people's shoes and *thinking* as opposed to being a biased fool who resorts to a quick profanities aimed at total strangers who's ideas they don't understand.
It figures you would be trying to defend and make something "logical" out of anything illogical coming out from Apple.
Apple has made it possible to choose wich ever keyboard you want! There is now 3 konfigurations. All should be happy. But NOOOOOOO!!!!! Cry babies!!!
Besides... I use my number keypads every single minut during worktime. A little less during wake hometime. All on a MacBook Pro! I have owned numeric keyboards, but after buying and using the MBP and its keyboard, I have never wanted to look back!!! IT IS NO PROBLEM... if you ask me!
It´s all a matter of changing habits! AND then you have a keyboard that gives you more space, and gives room for upcoming external usb-devices, and other cool upgrades.
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or convenient without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
I still don't get how they would actually mock Apple - it's hard to imagine them trying to get that message across in a way that wouldn't make them look more ridiculous than Apple. And has the iMac ever really been aimed at the business/financial world? For the most part it's a consumer machine.
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or conveniently without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
i didnt see the business / financial world rushing to adopt Macs before this keyboard change, so, considering the fact we still have a FREE option of the old keyboard, how is this going to affect those businesses "on the fence" about buying macs? Right - it's not.
Agreed, i'll be mad as hell if i walk into a best buy and buy a iMac and it came with a keyboard with the number pad missing. This really is a bad idea, the Apple online store gives you a option when ordering a new machine but i wonder how stores like best buy are going to handle this.
If the models at Bestbuy display this abridged keyboard I wonder how sales will be affected by business students, accountants, and financial people in general?
Comments
That's ridiculous- where do you get your facts from? Most everybody does their taxes these days and most people will/should be keeping budgets.
That's bull sh*t.
I do my own taxes - and for some other folks - and do databases - and custom spreadsheets with formulas that sometimes get too big to fit in a single cell - and a number of years ago when I was also running a cash register - I used to be able to do 240 "words" a minute on the 10 key (according to Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor) - but after using almost exclusively notebooks for the past 4 or 5 years - I have found that when I do get to a machine with a full keyboard including 10 key - that I forget to use it.
So I think the post was not suggesting that "numbers" are not important to people - but that the for most users the loss of the 10 key is really not that big a deal.
I change pointing devices from time to time to help reduce some aspects of repetitive stress injury. Switching keyboards is a convenient additional option. I also prefer the reliability of wired keyboards.
I have to say I asked for this one.
The keyboard with num pad is just not ergonomical.
For the best typing position, the keyboard should be centered with the monitor. However, with the extended portion (about 7 inches), that pushes my mouse pad way to the right. Basically, I needed about 15 inches more space to the right of my typing position. On a small desk, that is impossible.
That's why I much prefer the MB and MBP keyboard. Some PC laptops comes with the built-in keypad, that would force the user to be tilted while working.
I even looked for third party USB keyboards without the num pad. Bought a ViewSonic one but it is crap. I have to say this new keyboard is ideal for me. Just wished it is cheaper.
I do my own taxes - and for some other folks - and do databases - and custom spreadsheets with formulas that sometimes get too big to fit in a single cell - and a number of years ago when I was also running a cash register - I used to be able to do 240 "words" a minute on the 10 key (according to Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor) - but after using almost exclusively notebooks for the past 4 or 5 years - I have found that when I do get to a machine with a full keyboard including 10 key - that I forget to use it.
So I think the post was not suggesting that "numbers" are not important to people - but that the for most users the loss of the 10 key is really not that big a deal.
Pecking at numbers at the top of your keyboard is just not more efficient than a numbered keyboard. I swear some people will just drink Koolaid and die if Apple tells them to.
The white-keyed keyboard of my 1st gen Alu iMac is on par with that of my white MacBook, and it's pretty good, but the keys on the new unibody notebooks feel much more solid, and give an overall higher impression of quality.
So basically, the Apple keyboard you get with your $5000 Mac Pro is of lesser quality than that of a $1200 MacBook.
Not to mention the black keys would match the rest of the machine a lot better.
Apple needs both wired and wireless keyboards with a multi-touch trackpad and left/right mouse buttons taking the place of the numeric keypad. It would be a joy to use and, if made a bit smaller than the current keyboard with numeric keypad, it'd be compact enough to take along with a laptop. And since it means we don't need a mouse, our desks and laptop bags would be less cluttered.
Even more important, it'd let us get away from the number one problem of working while reclining. Here's how it works now. We elevate the laptop with screen, so we can recline rather than hunch over. For input, we add a separate keyboard in our lap for typing but--wait, how can we manage that pesky mouse? Whatever we do, it's always a nuisance, slipping off whatever contrived platform we have onto the floor. This new keyboard puts the mouse where it belongs, as a track pad with the keyboard on our lap. No slip, slip, sliding away.
Bonus points to Apple if it adds these features:
1. A bluetooth version that talks to iPhone and iPod touches, with the trackpad working with the touchscreen--a light touch to give us an on-screen cursor and a firmer touch makes a selection. That same feature could work with our computers, giving us a touch screen without a fingerprint-covered display.
2. The trackpad also works as a graphics tablet, again reducing clutter on desks. It wouldn't replace the professional ones from Wacom, but it'd do for the rest of us who'd never buy a tablet.
So basically, the Apple keyboard you get with your $5000 Mac Pro is of lesser quality than that of a $1200 MacBook.
Not to mention the black keys would match the rest of the machine a lot better.
I like the idea of the black keys.
But, the Mac Pro does not come with the new, compact keyboard - but continues with the keyboard with keypad.
I want to have space to type properly and not a tiny keyboard like that.
The letters are the same size on all keyboards I believe. Only the arrow keys are smaller.
I don't really see the point though ? as someone mentioned earlier, why haven't they updated them to be more like the unibody notebooks is any ones guess.
On a desktop I like the number pad.
This looks like a point for Microsoft to mock Apple with, if ever there was one.
And what exactly would their "mocking" consist of?
While I see this as a silly decision on Apple's part (at least making the small one standard on iMac), I can't imagine how MS (or really any PC company) would run with it.
I think this move to get rid of the num. pad and decrease the width of the keyboard is a good sign that Apple might be prepping a multi-touch glass trackpad for their desktop line. By have it be smaller, one could attach (via usb) a trackpad to either end of the keyboard (lefty or righty).
Don't blow this off, I think its gonna happen in some manner. Multi-touch is still non-existent on their desktop line, a glaring signal to me.
Thoughts?
I think the reason for the lack of numeric keypad is that by far most people do not use it. If you don't use it it is much better to have a small keyboard. The biggest advantage is that your keyboard takes less space on your desk. Apple addressed this when they brought out the wireless keyboard. If you don't use it a keypad is a pain as you have to move your hand much further to reach the mouse. Inefficient and bad for RSI victims, I believe.
If you need the numeric keypad it is available at no extra cost. You can't have wire less but this is a small tradeoff imo.
As far as a universal programable 'touch' keyboard goes - way too expensive for now but I would love to see it.
That's ridiculous- where do you get your facts from? Most everybody does their taxes these days and most people will/should be keeping budgets.
That's bull sh*t.
Not sure why you are even showing up this morning since you've been on my ignore list for a day or two now ...
In any case, wrong again. What I said was:
The average consumer "doesn't do numbers" and doesn't even track their finances in any appreciable way by using financial software or doing spreadsheets.
In what universe does having to do your taxes once a year qualify as a consumer doing any appreciable amount of number crunching on a regular basis? And yes, most people *should* use budgets, but most don't.
You also totally miss my point as usual. I am in *favour* of the number pad, although I wold like it as a separate accessory.
What I was doing there was describing a series of logical reasons why Apple might want to eliminate it given their market and the use people make of the thing. This involves putting yourself in other people's shoes and *thinking* as opposed to being a biased fool who resorts to a quick profanities aimed at total strangers who's ideas they don't understand.
And what exactly would their "mocking" consist of?
While I see this as a silly decision on Apple's part (at least making the small one standard on iMac), I can't imagine how MS (or really any PC company) would run with it.
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or conveniently without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
What I was doing there was describing a series of logical reasons why Apple might want to eliminate it given their market and the use people make of the thing. This involves putting yourself in other people's shoes and *thinking* as opposed to being a biased fool who resorts to a quick profanities aimed at total strangers who's ideas they don't understand.
It figures you would be trying to defend and make something "logical" out of anything illogical coming out from Apple.
Apple has made it possible to choose wich ever keyboard you want! There is now 3 konfigurations. All should be happy. But NOOOOOOO!!!!! Cry babies!!!
Besides... I use my number keypads every single minut during worktime. A little less during wake hometime. All on a MacBook Pro! I have owned numeric keyboards, but after buying and using the MBP and its keyboard, I have never wanted to look back!!! IT IS NO PROBLEM... if you ask me!
It´s all a matter of changing habits! AND then you have a keyboard that gives you more space, and gives room for upcoming external usb-devices, and other cool upgrades.
...YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE though!
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or convenient without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
I still don't get how they would actually mock Apple - it's hard to imagine them trying to get that message across in a way that wouldn't make them look more ridiculous than Apple. And has the iMac ever really been aimed at the business/financial world? For the most part it's a consumer machine.
That Apple doesn't take the business/financial world seriously. Spreadsheets and anything numeric are just not completed and created as fast or conveniently without a number pad. Many Apple users (creative and publishing) never use it ,and that I understand, but you don't just cut off the non-creative user part of a desktop. What the hell were they thinking?
i didnt see the business / financial world rushing to adopt Macs before this keyboard change, so, considering the fact we still have a FREE option of the old keyboard, how is this going to affect those businesses "on the fence" about buying macs? Right - it's not.
Agreed, i'll be mad as hell if i walk into a best buy and buy a iMac and it came with a keyboard with the number pad missing. This really is a bad idea, the Apple online store gives you a option when ordering a new machine but i wonder how stores like best buy are going to handle this.
If the models at Bestbuy display this abridged keyboard I wonder how sales will be affected by business students, accountants, and financial people in general?