You do know that FW is daisy-chainable right? I.E. if you have an external HD it's got 2 FW ports - that's not to connect it to 2 seperate computers - that's to connect another HD to it. That's another reason why FW is better than USB...
Yes, I'm well aware that FW is daisy-chainable... assuming that your devices HAVE two FW ports on them. In my dad's case, most of his devices (camcorders and such) do not.
Throw in that not all FW devices are created equal, and some, when daisy chained to slower devices, resort to the slower speed, and you have all kinds of fun to look forward to. Also, though I did not mention it in the original post as it wasn't relevant, in my dad's case, daisy chaining through the Drobo would be a pain due to the cable layout (Drobo all the way to one side, FW hub all the way on the other). Again, more cabling would be required.
My point was simply that Apple removed a port which used to be there, which for some folks can cause some grief. Throw in that, unlike USB, there are no redundant ports, should that one FW port go bad, a user would be SOL until they had their unit fixed. Minor point, but I've had ports die, and it's nice to have a fallback.
As for your final comment about "That's another reason why FW is better than USB", I won't bother getting into the USB vs. FW holy wars. I don't believe either is "better". Rather, I believe each was built to serve a certain purpose, and they each have their advantages/disadvantages.
So, there you have it... same old display technology... horrendous 20'' TN LCD with narrow viewing angles and brightness gradient and sort of average 24'' LCD with a few problems of its own as well... why on earth didn't they upgrade the displays to LED, like on every other recent Apple product?! It doesn't make any sense...
Definitely an upgrade to ignore... something better will come.
And the resolution on the 24 inch is reduced from 1920 to 1680. WHY??
I'm pretty sure that's just an error, Apple wouldn't lower the resolution.
Here's a question: did they get rid of the 9400M in the higher end models? There goes Apple's opportunity to finally offer a Hybrid SLI iMac, that would have made up for the lack of Quad core! What happened to the Core 2 Quads with 65 watt TDP? I want quad core!
Man! If you were around when the original iMac came out, you would've gone ape-shit! They dropped ALL legacy ports (ADB, serial and SCSI) off that sucker. But people still bought them, including me. I had keyboards, a trackball, a few external hard drives and a printer that wouldn't work with the iMac. I chose to buy it, so I just had to deal with it. I ended up getting an ethernet card for my Mac SE and used it as a file and print server - but damn was it slow!
Ummm... slightly different case. As you note, it was the "original iMac". So it's not exactly like Apple "dropped" anything relative to a previous iMac, since there wasn't one. You are referring to Apple's hardware shift from making Performas/Quadras/PowerMacs to iMacs, and yes, the loss of legacy ports was rough for certain folks. I recall those days well, and still have a SCSI Iomega ZIP drive laying around somewhere from that time.
[Ironically, it was exactly this "throw the baby out with the bathwater" approach that launched USB devices. Ironic considering Intel developed USB and USB ports had been standard on PC motherboards for years, but Intel couldn't do squat to get peripheral makers to jump on board. Then Apple leaves their users without a floppy drive for storage or the ability to print to any pre-existing printer, and voila!]
But that's not the same as a slight bump in specs. I'd say you had a better argument if you went with the PowerMac G3 to PowerMac G4 shift, when Apple did the same there, as in that case the unit looked pretty much the same but suddenly lost its ADB and SCSI ports. But with the iMac product line, from day one those legacy ports were not there.
And my point was solely that Apple removed a port altogether, leaving users with just a single FW port, and what the implications of that might be for some. Nothing more, nothing less.
with $1200 you can get a more powerful computer than any iMac.
With $1200 you can get a Core i7 PC that equals the new $2500 Mac Pro in performance.
Apple must not care that PCs are significantly less expensive than Macs and that, outside the US where Mac prices just increased dramatically, PC prices have not gone up much if at all.
In recent months the Canadian dollar has lost enormous value against the greenback, but the 1TB hard drive that would have cost me $120 last year still costs $120.
Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but this thread has ballooned, so I won't be looking back through it. Anyway, the new iMac's stand is tapered, unlike the old, rectangular stand
Pay attention. The iMac includes the new wired keyboard WITHOUT a numeric pad. That is something new. You can build to oder and get the original aluminum wired keyboard with numeric pad, but retail boxes will have the butchered keyboard without the numeric pad.
Read carefully, I said "option". The original poster though they completely removed the version with the numeric keypad. Personally, I hope they don't drop the one with a numeric keypad.
Too bad for those across the pond from us. I hope you all enjoyed the weak dollar while it lasted. Sucks to be you now.
Here in the US, you get the 24" imac with twice the storage and memory for $300 less than before. Slight drop in cpu clockspeed, but faster memory and updated architecture probably means slightly faster cpu. It looks like the GPU gets slightly worse, at least for games, but not by that much. Basically the update at the $1499 pricepoint went for storage, memory and display size over gpu and cpu speed.
While I can understand your frustration, you need to consider that the motherboards which carry all those dandy ports are being manufactured by intel. If intel is no longer producing a board with FW400 and FW800 or two FW800 ports then Apple obviously can't offer it. It sucks, but thats the sad truth. In the case of your dad's old G5, obviously Apple had more control back then working with IBM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fseesink
The problem isn't just the loss of a FW400 port. Your adapter cable works in such a case.
The bigger issue for some (my dad included) is that this new iMac only comes with ONE (1) FireWire port of any kind. Every iMac since the original iMac G5 has come with TWO (2) FireWire ports. Initially they were both FW400. Then, with the advent of the aluminum bodies, Apple shifted to one FW400 and one FW800.
Now you only get a single FW800 port. Why does this matter? Well, for one, anyone who has multiple FW devices now MUST buy a FW hub. But try to find some decent FW800 hubs. Sure, FW400 hubs exist (my dad uses a Belkin 6-port unit), but if you use that--which implies using a cable like the one you mention to connect the hub to the iMac--you've just effectively killed the entire point of FW800.
So let's say you can get a FW800 hub. And let's say (as I'm not sure this is the case) that connecting a FW400 device to a FW800 hub using a cable such as you mention does NOT cause the entire hub to shift into lowest-common-denominator 400Mbps mode. Even with all that, what happens when most of your devices, such as camcorders, are still FW400? All those FW400 cables you have? Useless. Now you need to buy several of the cables above, one for each device.
And if the hub DOES shift down into FW400 mode if there's a single FW400 device attached, see same note above about making FW800 port useless. For folks like my dad who have a Drobo (I have it connected to his iMac G5 using a cable similar to the one above), so much for finally getting that FW800 performance. He got the 2nd gen Drobo specifically with the idea that when he bought a new iMac, he'd finally get the full performance that its FW800 port offered.
Why did Apple not simply replace the FW400 port with another FW800 port, giving users at least two FW800 ports? It's not like it would take up more real estate on the back of the unit. THIS is one thing that does disappoint me. My dad has been itching to replace his iMac G5 1.9GHz unit. But with all the FW devices he currently has connected, he won't be able to do a simple swap if he bought a new iMac today. If he wants to be able to use the Drobo at full FW800 speed, he'll have to buy a FW800 hub (good luck finding one that offers 6+ ports for less than $100 if at all) and a crapload of the cables above. This, compared to simply buying one such cable to connect to his FW400 hub, then having the Drobo connect directly to the 2nd FW800 port.
So while I applaud the rest of the features (sure, I was hoping Apple would put a quadcore into the iMac, but maybe next time), this to me IS, in fact, taking away functionality that users used to have.
With $1200 you can get a Core i7 PC that equals the new $2500 Mac Pro in performance.
Apple must not care that PCs are significantly less expensive than Macs and that, outside the US where Mac prices just increased dramatically, PC prices have not gone up much if at all.
In recent months the Canadian dollar has lost enormous value against the greenback, but the 1TB hard drive that would have cost me $120 last year still costs $120.
Yes, I'm well aware that FW is daisy-chainable... assuming that your devices HAVE two FW ports on them. ...
Throw in that not all FW devices are created equal, and some, when daisy chained to slower devices, resort to the slower speed, and you have all kinds of fun to look forward to...
My point was simply that Apple removed a port which used to be there, which for some folks can cause some grief. Throw in that, unlike USB, there are no redundant ports,...
... each [USB, FW] was built to serve a certain purpose, and they each have their advantages/disadvantages.
ditto ditto ditto.
I also prefer my older Mac's two FW port setup as it allows more user and wire-friendly configurations to my several external FW devices.
Good point that many video FW devices have only one (1) FW port, so that really puts you at a disadvantage with lots of cable swapping and hub-purchasing ahead.
A single FW800 port now means lots of after-market purchase of 800-to-400 adapters and multi-FW hubs.
I wish they would have kept two FW ports - one 400, one 800 - that way lots more users would be able to more simply connect their existing and/or multiple devices.
I mean, how hard would it have been to have two FW ports? They increased the number of USB2 ports... There is space on the machine... the technology exists... other computer makers have more multiple port options (within similar price range).
I point these out not to start a pc vs mac issue, as I really do prefer the Mac over my PC.
I just wish Apple did not make a habit of : we give you a little more here, but at same time, we take away something you used to use there...
My favorite OS and computer company, once more a step or two forward, a step back (or sideways)...
Should be an asterisk on all of that - it's cheaper for the US Customers - all the overseas folks are getting hosed because Apple has adjusted those prices to reflect the rise in the USD.
#'s since July '08
USD up 26.17% vs EUR
USD up 42.31% vs GBP
USD up 50.23% vs AUD
Call it the price of voting in competent leadership.
It's about perceived value for money. Most PC users don't need a Core i7 but why is there so much hype about it?
Upgrade factor for me. I can get 2.66GHz i7 for almost the same money as 3GHz Core 2 Quad... but while that C2Q might be end of the road for DDR2 RAM and Intel 775 socket, I'm sure I'll be able to swap my i7 CPU with faster one (or even one with more cores) in a year or two while keeping same mobo and rest of the system, if I feel like minimizing expenses.
That being said, I'm still on AMD X2 and that system is still doing OK for me... so yeah, future upgrades aside, C2D or C2Q would fill all my needs today without any need for i7.
Wow I was really hoping/expecting they would have LED displays. Big disappointment!!! Although, the specs and pricing look pretty decent for the low-end 24" model.
First decent and useful comment on this thread. Thank you.
Let's put the intangible value of OS X off the table. Let's just look at straight up hardware. Can somebody please configure a comparable machine from Dell, HP, or whoever? Make something comparable to the new iMacs, and post the specs right here. Don't talk about making your own box, I'm talking about commercially available consumer desktops. I guarantee you'll find comparable prices on hardware. THEN we can throw in the intangible value of the OS (and bundled software) and the hardware design Apple is known for.
I'm sick of people complaining about a lack of value and things being overpriced. You'd think people on this site actually knew a thing or two about Apple computers besides their sticker price.
I've run through HP's on-line configuration and came up with this as a system I'd go for if I'd be bying right now:
I'd pay a 10 to 15% difference not 40% for these specs.
Somehow I both doubt that "Apple wants to Hose customers!? and that this is a "horrible update" I think it is a surprise about the LED issue, so I'm not buying just to replace my present iMac 24, but if you were going to buy the old one yesterday, you're getting a better one today...
Comments
You do know that FW is daisy-chainable right? I.E. if you have an external HD it's got 2 FW ports - that's not to connect it to 2 seperate computers - that's to connect another HD to it. That's another reason why FW is better than USB...
Yes, I'm well aware that FW is daisy-chainable... assuming that your devices HAVE two FW ports on them. In my dad's case, most of his devices (camcorders and such) do not.
Throw in that not all FW devices are created equal, and some, when daisy chained to slower devices, resort to the slower speed, and you have all kinds of fun to look forward to. Also, though I did not mention it in the original post as it wasn't relevant, in my dad's case, daisy chaining through the Drobo would be a pain due to the cable layout (Drobo all the way to one side, FW hub all the way on the other). Again, more cabling would be required.
My point was simply that Apple removed a port which used to be there, which for some folks can cause some grief. Throw in that, unlike USB, there are no redundant ports, should that one FW port go bad, a user would be SOL until they had their unit fixed. Minor point, but I've had ports die, and it's nice to have a fallback.
As for your final comment about "That's another reason why FW is better than USB", I won't bother getting into the USB vs. FW holy wars. I don't believe either is "better". Rather, I believe each was built to serve a certain purpose, and they each have their advantages/disadvantages.
So, there you have it... same old display technology... horrendous 20'' TN LCD with narrow viewing angles and brightness gradient and sort of average 24'' LCD with a few problems of its own as well... why on earth didn't they upgrade the displays to LED, like on every other recent Apple product?! It doesn't make any sense...
Definitely an upgrade to ignore... something better will come.
And the resolution on the 24 inch is reduced from 1920 to 1680. WHY??
Here's a question: did they get rid of the 9400M in the higher end models? There goes Apple's opportunity to finally offer a Hybrid SLI iMac, that would have made up for the lack of Quad core! What happened to the Core 2 Quads with 65 watt TDP? I want quad core!
Man! If you were around when the original iMac came out, you would've gone ape-shit! They dropped ALL legacy ports (ADB, serial and SCSI) off that sucker. But people still bought them, including me. I had keyboards, a trackball, a few external hard drives and a printer that wouldn't work with the iMac. I chose to buy it, so I just had to deal with it. I ended up getting an ethernet card for my Mac SE and used it as a file and print server - but damn was it slow!
Ummm... slightly different case. As you note, it was the "original iMac". So it's not exactly like Apple "dropped" anything relative to a previous iMac, since there wasn't one. You are referring to Apple's hardware shift from making Performas/Quadras/PowerMacs to iMacs, and yes, the loss of legacy ports was rough for certain folks. I recall those days well, and still have a SCSI Iomega ZIP drive laying around somewhere from that time.
[Ironically, it was exactly this "throw the baby out with the bathwater" approach that launched USB devices. Ironic considering Intel developed USB and USB ports had been standard on PC motherboards for years, but Intel couldn't do squat to get peripheral makers to jump on board. Then Apple leaves their users without a floppy drive for storage or the ability to print to any pre-existing printer, and voila!]
But that's not the same as a slight bump in specs. I'd say you had a better argument if you went with the PowerMac G3 to PowerMac G4 shift, when Apple did the same there, as in that case the unit looked pretty much the same but suddenly lost its ADB and SCSI ports. But with the iMac product line, from day one those legacy ports were not there.
And my point was solely that Apple removed a port altogether, leaving users with just a single FW port, and what the implications of that might be for some. Nothing more, nothing less.
with $1200 you can get a more powerful computer than any iMac.
With $1200 you can get a Core i7 PC that equals the new $2500 Mac Pro in performance.
Apple must not care that PCs are significantly less expensive than Macs and that, outside the US where Mac prices just increased dramatically, PC prices have not gone up much if at all.
In recent months the Canadian dollar has lost enormous value against the greenback, but the 1TB hard drive that would have cost me $120 last year still costs $120.
Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but this thread has ballooned, so I won't be looking back through it. Anyway, the new iMac's stand is tapered, unlike the old, rectangular stand
noticed that too
Pay attention. The iMac includes the new wired keyboard WITHOUT a numeric pad. That is something new. You can build to oder and get the original aluminum wired keyboard with numeric pad, but retail boxes will have the butchered keyboard without the numeric pad.
Read carefully, I said "option". The original poster though they completely removed the version with the numeric keypad. Personally, I hope they don't drop the one with a numeric keypad.
And the resolution on the 24 inch is reduced from 1920 to 1680. WHY??
I don't know where you're getting that from. From Apple's website:
Resolution
20-inch model: 1680 by 1050 pixels
24-inch models: 1920 by 1200 pixels
Here in the US, you get the 24" imac with twice the storage and memory for $300 less than before. Slight drop in cpu clockspeed, but faster memory and updated architecture probably means slightly faster cpu. It looks like the GPU gets slightly worse, at least for games, but not by that much. Basically the update at the $1499 pricepoint went for storage, memory and display size over gpu and cpu speed.
The problem isn't just the loss of a FW400 port. Your adapter cable works in such a case.
The bigger issue for some (my dad included) is that this new iMac only comes with ONE (1) FireWire port of any kind. Every iMac since the original iMac G5 has come with TWO (2) FireWire ports. Initially they were both FW400. Then, with the advent of the aluminum bodies, Apple shifted to one FW400 and one FW800.
Now you only get a single FW800 port. Why does this matter? Well, for one, anyone who has multiple FW devices now MUST buy a FW hub. But try to find some decent FW800 hubs. Sure, FW400 hubs exist (my dad uses a Belkin 6-port unit), but if you use that--which implies using a cable like the one you mention to connect the hub to the iMac--you've just effectively killed the entire point of FW800.
So let's say you can get a FW800 hub. And let's say (as I'm not sure this is the case) that connecting a FW400 device to a FW800 hub using a cable such as you mention does NOT cause the entire hub to shift into lowest-common-denominator 400Mbps mode. Even with all that, what happens when most of your devices, such as camcorders, are still FW400? All those FW400 cables you have? Useless. Now you need to buy several of the cables above, one for each device.
And if the hub DOES shift down into FW400 mode if there's a single FW400 device attached, see same note above about making FW800 port useless. For folks like my dad who have a Drobo (I have it connected to his iMac G5 using a cable similar to the one above), so much for finally getting that FW800 performance. He got the 2nd gen Drobo specifically with the idea that when he bought a new iMac, he'd finally get the full performance that its FW800 port offered.
Why did Apple not simply replace the FW400 port with another FW800 port, giving users at least two FW800 ports? It's not like it would take up more real estate on the back of the unit. THIS is one thing that does disappoint me. My dad has been itching to replace his iMac G5 1.9GHz unit. But with all the FW devices he currently has connected, he won't be able to do a simple swap if he bought a new iMac today. If he wants to be able to use the Drobo at full FW800 speed, he'll have to buy a FW800 hub (good luck finding one that offers 6+ ports for less than $100 if at all) and a crapload of the cables above. This, compared to simply buying one such cable to connect to his FW400 hub, then having the Drobo connect directly to the 2nd FW800 port.
So while I applaud the rest of the features (sure, I was hoping Apple would put a quadcore into the iMac, but maybe next time), this to me IS, in fact, taking away functionality that users used to have.
With $1200 you can get a Core i7 PC that equals the new $2500 Mac Pro in performance.
Apple must not care that PCs are significantly less expensive than Macs and that, outside the US where Mac prices just increased dramatically, PC prices have not gone up much if at all.
In recent months the Canadian dollar has lost enormous value against the greenback, but the 1TB hard drive that would have cost me $120 last year still costs $120.
edit...double.
Yes, I'm well aware that FW is daisy-chainable... assuming that your devices HAVE two FW ports on them. ...
Throw in that not all FW devices are created equal, and some, when daisy chained to slower devices, resort to the slower speed, and you have all kinds of fun to look forward to...
My point was simply that Apple removed a port which used to be there, which for some folks can cause some grief. Throw in that, unlike USB, there are no redundant ports,...
... each [USB, FW] was built to serve a certain purpose, and they each have their advantages/disadvantages.
ditto ditto ditto.
I also prefer my older Mac's two FW port setup as it allows more user and wire-friendly configurations to my several external FW devices.
Good point that many video FW devices have only one (1) FW port, so that really puts you at a disadvantage with lots of cable swapping and hub-purchasing ahead.
A single FW800 port now means lots of after-market purchase of 800-to-400 adapters and multi-FW hubs.
I wish they would have kept two FW ports - one 400, one 800 - that way lots more users would be able to more simply connect their existing and/or multiple devices.
I mean, how hard would it have been to have two FW ports? They increased the number of USB2 ports... There is space on the machine... the technology exists... other computer makers have more multiple port options (within similar price range).
I point these out not to start a pc vs mac issue, as I really do prefer the Mac over my PC.
I just wish Apple did not make a habit of : we give you a little more here, but at same time, we take away something you used to use there...
My favorite OS and computer company, once more a step or two forward, a step back (or sideways)...
Firewire is not a network topology so you run out of ports quickly.
Should be an asterisk on all of that - it's cheaper for the US Customers - all the overseas folks are getting hosed because Apple has adjusted those prices to reflect the rise in the USD.
#'s since July '08
USD up 26.17% vs EUR
USD up 42.31% vs GBP
USD up 50.23% vs AUD
Call it the price of voting in competent leadership.
It's about perceived value for money. Most PC users don't need a Core i7 but why is there so much hype about it?
Upgrade factor for me. I can get 2.66GHz i7 for almost the same money as 3GHz Core 2 Quad... but while that C2Q might be end of the road for DDR2 RAM and Intel 775 socket, I'm sure I'll be able to swap my i7 CPU with faster one (or even one with more cores) in a year or two while keeping same mobo and rest of the system, if I feel like minimizing expenses.
That being said, I'm still on AMD X2 and that system is still doing OK for me... so yeah, future upgrades aside, C2D or C2Q would fill all my needs today without any need for i7.
What a pathetic bunch of whiners on this thread (at least, on Page 1).
S.T.F.U.
Wow I was really hoping/expecting they would have LED displays. Big disappointment!!! Although, the specs and pricing look pretty decent for the low-end 24" model.
First decent and useful comment on this thread. Thank you.
Let's put the intangible value of OS X off the table. Let's just look at straight up hardware. Can somebody please configure a comparable machine from Dell, HP, or whoever? Make something comparable to the new iMacs, and post the specs right here. Don't talk about making your own box, I'm talking about commercially available consumer desktops. I guarantee you'll find comparable prices on hardware. THEN we can throw in the intangible value of the OS (and bundled software) and the hardware design Apple is known for.
I'm sick of people complaining about a lack of value and things being overpriced. You'd think people on this site actually knew a thing or two about Apple computers besides their sticker price.
I've run through HP's on-line configuration and came up with this as a system I'd go for if I'd be bying right now:
HP d5200t
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q9550 [2.83GHz]
6GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM
1TB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
1GB ATI Radeon HD 4850 [2 DVI, HDMI and VGA adapters]
HP w2558hc 25-inch Vivid Color widescreen flat panel monitor
Blu-ray player & SuperMulti DVD burner
LAN port on system board (10/100/1000Base-T), no wireless LAN
15-in-1 memory card reader, 2 USB, 1394, audio
Integrated 7.1 channel sound with front audio ports
Logitech X-540 speakers (5.1)
HP multimedia keyboard and HP optical mouse
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit
Microsoft(R) Office Home and Student Edition 2007 - Includes Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote
$2099.98
Or, if you feel like saving some money... same platform, lower specs:
HP d5200t
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q9400 [2.66GHz]
4 GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM [4x1024]
500GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
768MB NVIDIA GeForce 9600GS [DVI, VGA, HDMI]
HP w2207h 22 -inch widescreen flat panel monitor more info
LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
LAN port on system board (10/100/1000Base-T), no wireless LAN
15-in-1 memory card reader, 2 USB, 1394, audio
Integrated 7.1 channel sound with front audio ports
HP stereo speakers with subwoofer and remote (2.1) 30W
HP multimedia keyboard and HP optical mouse
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit
Microsoft(R) Office Home and Student Edition 2007 - Includes Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote
$1249.98
NO JOBS = NO APPLES!
WHAT A HORRIBLE UPDATE!
NO LED? NO BLU RAY? WHAT IS APPLE DOING?
the price of 2199$ US is 2599$ CDN LOL
NO THANKS!
Ps The exchange rate difference is not 40%
APPLE WANTS TO HOSE CUSTOMERS!
I'd pay a 10 to 15% difference not 40% for these specs.
Somehow I both doubt that "Apple wants to Hose customers!? and that this is a "horrible update" I think it is a surprise about the LED issue, so I'm not buying just to replace my present iMac 24, but if you were going to buy the old one yesterday, you're getting a better one today...