Hear hear. BTW, Powerbooks with Mac OS X Tiger can be had for a few hundred on eBay or craigslist. I bought a Powerbook G4 a few years ago and it was great. I'm on a Windows laptop now; which is ok as long as I maintain it properly (I'd rather just stick to one platform, and most of my programs are Windows-based and already paid for).
Macbooks and Mac Minis with intel CPUs can be had for a few hundred more. (G4 support will be phased out once the next Mac OS X is released.)
Just shop carefully and look for 1GB RAM at least; I think trying it out is the only way to really appreciate Mac OS X.
I still use my PowerBook G4 15" Ti from Nov 2002. It was the last Ti model at 867 MHz. Still in mint condition, 1 GB RAM, 120 GB HD, AirPort, and Dual Layer SuperDrive (thanks to OWC when the Combo drive died). Running Leopard is just fine, even though Tiger feels faster. However, some programs I use require Leopard. Works great for everything I do when I am away from home. So people can give OS X Leopard a test drive with older Mac hardware for reasonable prices, and not be disappointed.
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
"Gonna get stuck with the computer when they go under"?
"Hurts Apple"?
All statements made by individuals who seriously do not think too deeply about any given topic before they write. These are little more than scare tactics of extreme loyalists. And I say this as a Mac lover since 1984, who has never purchase a Mac outside Apple, and I own a substantial amount of AAPL to boot.
The fact is that Apple has turned a blind eye to mid-range computing users. These folks are the Middle Class of computer users. These people are indeed, mainstream. These folks want more power and expandability than the Mini (yes, even the new March 2009 Mini) can provide, yet cannot afford the premium priced Mac Pro. And while the iMac would normally be a great option for many of these people, Glossy Hell is not attractive to many of them (nor to me). Don't try to defend gloss by saying it doesn't bother YOU. That doesn't magically make it not bother everyone else. Therefore, the iMac's gloss removes it from the running for most people. Hence the need for a mid-range Apple tower, which currently does not exist.
If anything Psystar deserves some praise for having the guts to fill a need. They saw it. They filled it. They filled that need despite the fact they knew they would be sued. Now if they merely copied the Mac Mini or some other machine Apple already sells, I too would side with all of you in saying that Psystar should be shut down now, and that in such a case they would be doing Apple great harm. But that is NOT the case.
Despite what many of you in this thread claim, it is indeed CHEAPER to go with a pre-built clone, or build your own using the EFI-X module. To deny this is to show one's utter ignorance price versus performance (without the gloss). We are talking about mid-range towers here, folks. This is not a direct comparison to the Mac Mini. If anything, you should be comparing prices to the Mac Pro. There is a cost savings. In regards to the $1,700 config mentioned in this thread, consider the power and expandability you get with that! And consider that many people already have a monitor to go with it -- a matte LCD at that! It's very reasonably priced and super fast, something you cannot say about the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is still faster and looks beautiful, but most mainstream people (myself included) don't have the money for a Mac Pro. But we do have money for a mid-range tower.
Will you be "stuck" with a machine should Psystar die this November? Hardly. Some people apparently plan to keep using the hardware until it stops working. Yes, Apple could make changes that prevent you from upgrading, UNLESS you then add a $200 EFI-X module which Apple cannot block. The only way Apple could block the EFI-X module is if they were to tie the OS to a special chip on the logic board. But if they do that, they would lose compatibility with older Mac hardware -- something Apple is not likely to do for a long time. Hence, in light of the existence of EFI-X, your purchase is rather safe. And even though EFI-X costs $200, the total amount of money you spend for the power and expandability you get is much, much lower than any comparable Mac Pro. It's still a sound deal moneywise. And even if EFI-X doesn't cut it for you, the box still could be used for Linux or Windows, I suppose. The box would not suddenly become junk.
Again, I am a Mac lover and have been since 1984. I don't really want to promote anything outside Apple. But there is a need and people have been pounding on that need for a long time, yet Apple has chosen to ignore the masses. It is only common sense that someone in a free market would come to the rescue to fill a need. Psystar has done this, as well as the EFI-X people. Indeed, I myself would be buying an iMac now if it weren't for the gloss. For the iMac is the only thing close to a mid-range machine in Apple's lineup. But I will NOT buy the gloss. Plus, you can get a quad-core chip and more RAM for less with a non-Apple machine. It's sad, but that is the state of things now. It's not my fault. The ball is in Apple's court.
And before you think me just an oddball, consider that Ric Ford of Macintouch feels the exact same way. Go to macintouch.com and read the EFI-X reader reports completely. Just because the Mini or iMac or Mac Pro may satisfy YOU, that doesn't mean all other people must be satisfied with the same thing. Until Apple does the right thing, EFI-X and Psystar will continue to exist. If Apple kills of Psystar, another with rise in its place. This will continue until Apple builds a reasonably priced mid-range Mac with a non-gloss option.
Since no one has ever admitted to buying a Psystar computer, nor have they admitted to wanting one, then your comments don't seem to have much merit. Where are the sales figures? Is there any evidence to show that Psystar has even sold an OS X clone? If Apple felt there was a demand for a minitower, they would have continued to make them. However, there isn't one despite the few people here that claim to want one. iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
Since no one has ever admitted to buying a Psystar computer, nor have they admitted to wanting one, then your comments don't seem to have much merit. Where are the sales figures? Is there any evidence to show that Psystar has even sold an OS X clone? If Apple felt there was a demand for a minitower, they would have continued to make them. However, there isn't one despite the few people here that claim to want one. iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
expanding the range is not normally a sign that something isn't selling so I'll bet Pystar have sold a fair few.
Apple knows the demand for the mini tower is there....they just don't know how to do it and still make 35% on it. They aren't interested in marketshare only profit per unit.
iMacs aren't selling like crazy, no apple product does unless its an ipod.
Apple will probably only sell 3 mill iMacs this year..worldwide!!!
btw..I bought a glossy screen, had it 2 days and took it back, just awful, giving me headaches.
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
reputational damage is an interesting one.
Seeing as this year worldwide Apple will likely sell 10m units in an overall market of 260mill, there is an argument to be made that their sales are insufficient ..overall, to be 'damageable'
i wonder if this is the old double bluff by Apple. Force it to go to court ......lose and then by default have to go licensing the OS.
Apple makes much more money without the backlash of the macheads..!
expanding the range is not normally a sign that something isn't selling so I'll bet Pystar have sold a fair few.
Apple knows the demand for the mini tower is there....they just don't know how to do it and still make 35% on it. They aren't interested in marketshare only profit per unit.
iMacs aren't selling like crazy, no apple product does unless its an ipod.
Apple will probably only sell 3 mill iMacs this year..worldwide!!!
btw..I bought a glossy screen, had it 2 days and took it back, just awful, giving me headaches.
So if Psystar has sold any, why hasn't anyone come out to brag about how great they are, or how bad they are? No one on this board has ever admitted to buying one, nor on Macworld. I guess you don't pay attention to prior news in which Apple has set record sales on Macs, not iPods. 3 million iMac sales is pretty good, defeats your complaint about glossy screens, doesn't it? Did you take your tube TV back too? Those have glossy screens.
I find it hilarious that Psystar is selling server Hackintoshes. Yep, that's what every sysadmin wants: A completely unsupported, hacked server with questionable support and made by a company that could be sued out of existence by this time next year.
This looks like a good update to Psystar's product line. It could be good in schools, where wireless for example is unnecessary. It looks like Psystar is outperforming Apple in terms of value for money... compare to the Mac Mini and you will see what I am talking about. Sure, the Mini is an appealing design... but... the specs aren't even close.
Competition is good. I think it is quite clever what Psystar is doing, at least, that guy will end up much wealthier than I will, so in that respect, he seems clever.
Why don't you go buy one since it's good for value of money?
iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
Count me as someone who bought a glossy iMac, and is NOT happy with it. I'd almost go so far as to say I hate it. The only reason I bought it is because Apple didn't have any other reasonable choices. You simply cannot count iMac purchases as proof that Mac users don't want an alternative configuration if Apple doesn't offer that alternative to compare the sales to.
I guess you didn't bother to go to Psystar's website to back up your claim. If you configure their so-called $599 computer with FireWire, Bluetooth (which is a USB dongle!), Wireless, and add $49 for a Keyboard and Mouse (which they do not include), the price jumps to $866.99, and you still need to spend a few hundred for a decent monitor. Most users do use FireWire (hard drives, DV cameras) and Bluetooth for wireless keyboards and mice. So it is not $370 cheaper. If you add the more expensive processor, memory, hard drive, video, throw in iLife and iWork, and extra warranty, now you are up to $1,723.98, and you are still missing the monitor. Still think it is $370 cheaper? Also, you can't restore the computer until you release all your rights against the company and request their restore CD.
So now you're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into to win? Your maxed out Open(3) has a Quad core processor (not even an option in the Mini), the same amount of RAM as a maxed out Mini, 2 7200RPM 1TB hard drives versus the Mini's 5400RPM 320GB drive, and a better video card with dedicated memory. Gee, you forgot to throw in Blu-Ray to bring it up to $2022. I maxed out the Mini by throwing in an Apple monitor. Mini's price $2269. Look at that, the Open(3) is cheaper now.
Let's look at the base Open(3):
Open(3) has a 2.8GHz processor. The Mini can only be upgraded to a 2.26GHz for an additional $150.
Open(3) has 2GB of RAM. The Mini can be upgraded to 2GB for an additional $50. I'll call this a wash as its DDR2 vs. DDR3.
Open(3) has a 500GB hard drive. The Mini can be upgraded to 320GB for an additional $175.
Open(3)'s premium keyboard/mouse set is $49. The Mini's is $98, twice as much.
So you're looking at the Mini costing $374 more and still not matching the Open(3)'s specs. I'll even give you the Firewire and Wi-Fi, iLife (bought full price from the Apple Store) and $20 to upgrade the video card for dual-monitor support. I still don't see the importance of Bluetooth since there aren't that many Bluetooth keyboards/mice so will not include it in the price. You'd have to pay for iWork, the extended warranty and a monitor on either computer so those get dropped. Even then, the Mini is still $176 more. And the best part is that if you don't need Wi-Fi or Firewire, you don't have to pay for them and can save yourself an additional $178 for a savings of a $354 versus a mini that still doesn't match it in specs.
So now you're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into to win? Your maxed out Open(3) has a Quad core processor (not even an option in the Mini), the same amount of RAM as a maxed out Mini, 2 7200RPM 1TB hard drives versus the Mini's 5400RPM 320GB drive, and a better video card with dedicated memory. Gee, you forgot to throw in Blu-Ray to bring it up to $2022. I maxed out the Mini by throwing in an Apple monitor. Mini's price $2269. Look at that, the Open(3) is cheaper now.
I don't understand the basis for your argument. I think we all know that any machine with desktop-grade components are going to give you more bang for the buck over a machine with notebook-grade parts. Like it or not, the Mac mini isn't marketed as a low-end PC, just Apple's low-end PC.
I can build the machine Psystar offers with better components at a lower price and stil OS X running on it. I'll even save a few more dollars from not having to buy some parts I have laying around. I'll even save an additional $150 for DLing a torrent of OSx86. If I'm going to be breaking the law I might as well go all in.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
Have you actually visited their website and configured a machine?
I have and was able to configure a 2.8 ghz quad core machine with 4 gbs RAM, 1 Terabyte HDD, opical drive, and a 9800 gt video card for $1600. It was the open pro machine, but my point is that psystar packs more more machine for the money, compared to Apple, if you look at the components that make up the machine.
The reality is that people that pine for an xMac want exactly what psysytar is offering. The xMac is the psystar Open Pro.
So if Psystar has sold any, why hasn't anyone come out to brag about how great they are, or how bad they are? No one on this board has ever admitted to buying one, nor on Macworld. I guess you don't pay attention to prior news in which Apple has set record sales on Macs, not iPods. 3 million iMac sales is pretty good, defeats your complaint about glossy screens, doesn't it? Did you take your tube TV back too? Those have glossy screens.
Wow a sales record of 3 million. Hooly-dooly. Why, that's less than 1% of the computer market. That's amazing.
Don't delude yourself.
And what about the millions before who bought mattes? I suppose they were all unsatisfied retards, huh?
Same for all those who don't want one of Apple's all-in-ones.
I think this is great, and want to build my own Hackintosh tower to do music on. I've got an imac, and whilst I love it, I need a tower and will never be able to afford a Mac Pro, especially here in Australia
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
I was going to stay out of this arguement, but your comments need addressing.
You state that the $600.00 isn't a nice price. You have to consider that most folks who would buy this system already have a keyboard, mouse and monitor - just like with the Mac mini. Most folks don't use firewire anymore, but it can be added if needed. Wireless on a desktop? If you truly need it, you can get a reliable PCI card cheap. You forgot to mention that the $50.00 they charge you gets you both Life AND iWork.
Let us compare the differences for similar machines. I am not including the iMac since it is a all-in-one machine.
Psystar:
Leopard + iLife + iWork
2.8Ghz Core Duo
2GB RAM
500GB 7200RPM HDD
20x DVD burner
Geforce 9500GT w/512MB dedicated (DVI and VGA)
3 Port Firewire 800
Wireless N
Bluetooth
$997.00
Mac Mini:
Leopard + iLife + iWork
2.26Ghz Core Duo
2GB RAM
320GB 5400RPM HDD
8x DVD burner
Intel Geforce 9400M 256MB shared (display port and mini-dvi_
1 Port Firewire 800
Wireless N
Bluetooth
$998.00
Bang for buck, the Psystar wins. HOW is this not a good deal? Please don't include that "maybe" there will be driver conflicts, etc. That conjecture has no basis in fact. It seems that it would be in Psystars best interest to make sure everything works.
Would I buy one? Maybe. These machines don't have support for Bootcamp, which is a downer. But, I haven't heard anything negative regarding virtualization with these machines. You would think if someone wanted to poo-poo Psystar that issue would have been brought up by now.
The point that NEEDS to be made is that Apple is totally IGNORING a sector of the market. Many of use would prefer a mini-tower Mac, yet Apple refuses to provide such a device. My old mac mini is nice, but upgrading it is really a pain in the a#$ and there is only so much I can do. The new models don't even allow for cpu swaps...grrr. The iMac doesn't work either. All-in-one is a bad idea. With a mini-tower, if my monitor goes down, I just swap it out. With the iMac, I loose my computer while it is repaired. The Mac Pro is too much machine and too expensive as well.
As it stands, my next machine will be a windows machine since I need expandability. If Apple would provide another option, I would jump at it.
I don't understand the basis for your argument. I think we all know that any machine with desktop-grade components are going to give you more bang for the buck over a machine with notebook-grade parts. Like it or not, the Mac mini isn't marketed as a low-end PC, just Apple's low-end PC.
My point was to dispute hillstone's ridiculous claim that the Open(3) was more expensive than a Mini when all he did was unfairly max out the Open(3). At that point, a fair comparison would be between the Open(3) and a Mac Pro. And that's a fight the Mac Pro loses as well. To get a vaguely comparable Mac Pro is nearly $3000 versus the Open(3)'s $1700.
And your last point is also relevant. As others have said, the Open(3) fills a niche that Apple is unwilling to fill. I have an iMac because that's all I could afford at the time. The Pro was too expensive and the Mini too underpowered. If Psystar had been around two years ago when I wanted to switch, I would have seriously considered giving them my $600 instead of the $1600 I gave Apple.
My point was to dispute hillstone's ridiculous claim that the Open(3) was more expensive than a Mini when all he did was unfairly max out the Open(3). At that point, a fair comparison would be between the Open(3) and a Mac Pro. And that's a fight the Mac Pro loses as well. To get a vaguely comparable Mac Pro is nearly $3000 versus the Open(3)'s $1700.
And your last point is also relevant. As others have said, the Open(3) fills a niche that Apple is unwilling to fill. I have an iMac because that's all I could afford at the time. The Pro was too expensive and the Mini too underpowered. If Psystar had been around two years ago when I wanted to switch, I would have seriously considered giving them my $600 instead of the $1600 I gave Apple.
Adding the components to the Psystar to equally match the Mini makes the Psystar more expensive than the Mini. You never bothered to go to their site to do it yourself. You just claimed their $599 stripped version was a better deal, when it is lacking features.
So go buy one if you think it is so great and let us know how you feel about it. Just don't talk BS like you have been doing.
Bang for buck, the Psystar wins. HOW is this not a good deal? Please don't include that "maybe" there will be driver conflicts, etc. That conjecture has no basis in fact. It seems that it would be in Psystars best interest to make sure everything works.
You make some valid points. But like many Apple computer users i rely on a decent second hand price when I upgrade. It's a luxury few other computer users enjoy. I'd be curious to know how much one of these budget Mac clones would fetch on Ebay.
Comments
Hear hear. BTW, Powerbooks with Mac OS X Tiger can be had for a few hundred on eBay or craigslist. I bought a Powerbook G4 a few years ago and it was great. I'm on a Windows laptop now; which is ok as long as I maintain it properly (I'd rather just stick to one platform, and most of my programs are Windows-based and already paid for).
Macbooks and Mac Minis with intel CPUs can be had for a few hundred more. (G4 support will be phased out once the next Mac OS X is released.)
Just shop carefully and look for 1GB RAM at least; I think trying it out is the only way to really appreciate Mac OS X.
I still use my PowerBook G4 15" Ti from Nov 2002. It was the last Ti model at 867 MHz. Still in mint condition, 1 GB RAM, 120 GB HD, AirPort, and Dual Layer SuperDrive (thanks to OWC when the Combo drive died). Running Leopard is just fine, even though Tiger feels faster. However, some programs I use require Leopard. Works great for everything I do when I am away from home. So people can give OS X Leopard a test drive with older Mac hardware for reasonable prices, and not be disappointed.
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
"Who cares?"
"Only an idiot would buy this"?
"It's not cheaper"?
"Gonna get stuck with the computer when they go under"?
"Hurts Apple"?
All statements made by individuals who seriously do not think too deeply about any given topic before they write. These are little more than scare tactics of extreme loyalists. And I say this as a Mac lover since 1984, who has never purchase a Mac outside Apple, and I own a substantial amount of AAPL to boot.
The fact is that Apple has turned a blind eye to mid-range computing users. These folks are the Middle Class of computer users. These people are indeed, mainstream. These folks want more power and expandability than the Mini (yes, even the new March 2009 Mini) can provide, yet cannot afford the premium priced Mac Pro. And while the iMac would normally be a great option for many of these people, Glossy Hell is not attractive to many of them (nor to me). Don't try to defend gloss by saying it doesn't bother YOU. That doesn't magically make it not bother everyone else. Therefore, the iMac's gloss removes it from the running for most people. Hence the need for a mid-range Apple tower, which currently does not exist.
If anything Psystar deserves some praise for having the guts to fill a need. They saw it. They filled it. They filled that need despite the fact they knew they would be sued. Now if they merely copied the Mac Mini or some other machine Apple already sells, I too would side with all of you in saying that Psystar should be shut down now, and that in such a case they would be doing Apple great harm. But that is NOT the case.
Despite what many of you in this thread claim, it is indeed CHEAPER to go with a pre-built clone, or build your own using the EFI-X module. To deny this is to show one's utter ignorance price versus performance (without the gloss). We are talking about mid-range towers here, folks. This is not a direct comparison to the Mac Mini. If anything, you should be comparing prices to the Mac Pro. There is a cost savings. In regards to the $1,700 config mentioned in this thread, consider the power and expandability you get with that! And consider that many people already have a monitor to go with it -- a matte LCD at that! It's very reasonably priced and super fast, something you cannot say about the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro is still faster and looks beautiful, but most mainstream people (myself included) don't have the money for a Mac Pro. But we do have money for a mid-range tower.
Will you be "stuck" with a machine should Psystar die this November? Hardly. Some people apparently plan to keep using the hardware until it stops working. Yes, Apple could make changes that prevent you from upgrading, UNLESS you then add a $200 EFI-X module which Apple cannot block. The only way Apple could block the EFI-X module is if they were to tie the OS to a special chip on the logic board. But if they do that, they would lose compatibility with older Mac hardware -- something Apple is not likely to do for a long time. Hence, in light of the existence of EFI-X, your purchase is rather safe. And even though EFI-X costs $200, the total amount of money you spend for the power and expandability you get is much, much lower than any comparable Mac Pro. It's still a sound deal moneywise. And even if EFI-X doesn't cut it for you, the box still could be used for Linux or Windows, I suppose. The box would not suddenly become junk.
Again, I am a Mac lover and have been since 1984. I don't really want to promote anything outside Apple. But there is a need and people have been pounding on that need for a long time, yet Apple has chosen to ignore the masses. It is only common sense that someone in a free market would come to the rescue to fill a need. Psystar has done this, as well as the EFI-X people. Indeed, I myself would be buying an iMac now if it weren't for the gloss. For the iMac is the only thing close to a mid-range machine in Apple's lineup. But I will NOT buy the gloss. Plus, you can get a quad-core chip and more RAM for less with a non-Apple machine. It's sad, but that is the state of things now. It's not my fault. The ball is in Apple's court.
And before you think me just an oddball, consider that Ric Ford of Macintouch feels the exact same way. Go to macintouch.com and read the EFI-X reader reports completely. Just because the Mini or iMac or Mac Pro may satisfy YOU, that doesn't mean all other people must be satisfied with the same thing. Until Apple does the right thing, EFI-X and Psystar will continue to exist. If Apple kills of Psystar, another with rise in its place. This will continue until Apple builds a reasonably priced mid-range Mac with a non-gloss option.
Since no one has ever admitted to buying a Psystar computer, nor have they admitted to wanting one, then your comments don't seem to have much merit. Where are the sales figures? Is there any evidence to show that Psystar has even sold an OS X clone? If Apple felt there was a demand for a minitower, they would have continued to make them. However, there isn't one despite the few people here that claim to want one. iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
Since no one has ever admitted to buying a Psystar computer, nor have they admitted to wanting one, then your comments don't seem to have much merit. Where are the sales figures? Is there any evidence to show that Psystar has even sold an OS X clone? If Apple felt there was a demand for a minitower, they would have continued to make them. However, there isn't one despite the few people here that claim to want one. iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
expanding the range is not normally a sign that something isn't selling so I'll bet Pystar have sold a fair few.
Apple knows the demand for the mini tower is there....they just don't know how to do it and still make 35% on it. They aren't interested in marketshare only profit per unit.
iMacs aren't selling like crazy, no apple product does unless its an ipod.
Apple will probably only sell 3 mill iMacs this year..worldwide!!!
btw..I bought a glossy screen, had it 2 days and took it back, just awful, giving me headaches.
Psystar will lose in court.
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
reputational damage is an interesting one.
Seeing as this year worldwide Apple will likely sell 10m units in an overall market of 260mill, there is an argument to be made that their sales are insufficient ..overall, to be 'damageable'
i wonder if this is the old double bluff by Apple. Force it to go to court ......lose and then by default have to go licensing the OS.
Apple makes much more money without the backlash of the macheads..!
....possile but improbable.
expanding the range is not normally a sign that something isn't selling so I'll bet Pystar have sold a fair few.
Apple knows the demand for the mini tower is there....they just don't know how to do it and still make 35% on it. They aren't interested in marketshare only profit per unit.
iMacs aren't selling like crazy, no apple product does unless its an ipod.
Apple will probably only sell 3 mill iMacs this year..worldwide!!!
btw..I bought a glossy screen, had it 2 days and took it back, just awful, giving me headaches.
So if Psystar has sold any, why hasn't anyone come out to brag about how great they are, or how bad they are? No one on this board has ever admitted to buying one, nor on Macworld. I guess you don't pay attention to prior news in which Apple has set record sales on Macs, not iPods. 3 million iMac sales is pretty good, defeats your complaint about glossy screens, doesn't it? Did you take your tube TV back too? Those have glossy screens.
This looks like a good update to Psystar's product line. It could be good in schools, where wireless for example is unnecessary. It looks like Psystar is outperforming Apple in terms of value for money... compare to the Mac Mini and you will see what I am talking about. Sure, the Mini is an appealing design... but... the specs aren't even close.
Competition is good. I think it is quite clever what Psystar is doing, at least, that guy will end up much wealthier than I will, so in that respect, he seems clever.
Why don't you go buy one since it's good for value of money?
iMacs are selling like crazy, even if YOU don't like a glossy screen. The rest of the millions that have bought them, are quite happy with them.
Count me as someone who bought a glossy iMac, and is NOT happy with it. I'd almost go so far as to say I hate it. The only reason I bought it is because Apple didn't have any other reasonable choices. You simply cannot count iMac purchases as proof that Mac users don't want an alternative configuration if Apple doesn't offer that alternative to compare the sales to.
I guess you didn't bother to go to Psystar's website to back up your claim. If you configure their so-called $599 computer with FireWire, Bluetooth (which is a USB dongle!), Wireless, and add $49 for a Keyboard and Mouse (which they do not include), the price jumps to $866.99, and you still need to spend a few hundred for a decent monitor. Most users do use FireWire (hard drives, DV cameras) and Bluetooth for wireless keyboards and mice. So it is not $370 cheaper. If you add the more expensive processor, memory, hard drive, video, throw in iLife and iWork, and extra warranty, now you are up to $1,723.98, and you are still missing the monitor. Still think it is $370 cheaper? Also, you can't restore the computer until you release all your rights against the company and request their restore CD.
So now you're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into to win? Your maxed out Open(3) has a Quad core processor (not even an option in the Mini), the same amount of RAM as a maxed out Mini, 2 7200RPM 1TB hard drives versus the Mini's 5400RPM 320GB drive, and a better video card with dedicated memory. Gee, you forgot to throw in Blu-Ray to bring it up to $2022. I maxed out the Mini by throwing in an Apple monitor. Mini's price $2269. Look at that, the Open(3) is cheaper now.
Let's look at the base Open(3):
Open(3) has a 2.8GHz processor. The Mini can only be upgraded to a 2.26GHz for an additional $150.
Open(3) has 2GB of RAM. The Mini can be upgraded to 2GB for an additional $50. I'll call this a wash as its DDR2 vs. DDR3.
Open(3) has a 500GB hard drive. The Mini can be upgraded to 320GB for an additional $175.
Open(3)'s premium keyboard/mouse set is $49. The Mini's is $98, twice as much.
So you're looking at the Mini costing $374 more and still not matching the Open(3)'s specs. I'll even give you the Firewire and Wi-Fi, iLife (bought full price from the Apple Store) and $20 to upgrade the video card for dual-monitor support. I still don't see the importance of Bluetooth since there aren't that many Bluetooth keyboards/mice so will not include it in the price. You'd have to pay for iWork, the extended warranty and a monitor on either computer so those get dropped. Even then, the Mini is still $176 more. And the best part is that if you don't need Wi-Fi or Firewire, you don't have to pay for them and can save yourself an additional $178 for a savings of a $354 versus a mini that still doesn't match it in specs.
Clearly the Mini is cheaper...
So now you're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into to win? Your maxed out Open(3) has a Quad core processor (not even an option in the Mini), the same amount of RAM as a maxed out Mini, 2 7200RPM 1TB hard drives versus the Mini's 5400RPM 320GB drive, and a better video card with dedicated memory. Gee, you forgot to throw in Blu-Ray to bring it up to $2022. I maxed out the Mini by throwing in an Apple monitor. Mini's price $2269. Look at that, the Open(3) is cheaper now.
I don't understand the basis for your argument. I think we all know that any machine with desktop-grade components are going to give you more bang for the buck over a machine with notebook-grade parts. Like it or not, the Mac mini isn't marketed as a low-end PC, just Apple's low-end PC.
I can build the machine Psystar offers with better components at a lower price and stil OS X running on it. I'll even save a few more dollars from not having to buy some parts I have laying around. I'll even save an additional $150 for DLing a torrent of OSx86. If I'm going to be breaking the law I might as well go all in.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
Have you actually visited their website and configured a machine?
I have and was able to configure a 2.8 ghz quad core machine with 4 gbs RAM, 1 Terabyte HDD, opical drive, and a 9800 gt video card for $1600. It was the open pro machine, but my point is that psystar packs more more machine for the money, compared to Apple, if you look at the components that make up the machine.
The reality is that people that pine for an xMac want exactly what psysytar is offering. The xMac is the psystar Open Pro.
So if Psystar has sold any, why hasn't anyone come out to brag about how great they are, or how bad they are? No one on this board has ever admitted to buying one, nor on Macworld. I guess you don't pay attention to prior news in which Apple has set record sales on Macs, not iPods. 3 million iMac sales is pretty good, defeats your complaint about glossy screens, doesn't it? Did you take your tube TV back too? Those have glossy screens.
Wow a sales record of 3 million. Hooly-dooly. Why, that's less than 1% of the computer market. That's amazing.
Don't delude yourself.
And what about the millions before who bought mattes? I suppose they were all unsatisfied retards, huh?
Same for all those who don't want one of Apple's all-in-ones.
What a joke...
Psystar will lose in court.
I think Apple will be able to prove that Psystar will harm their brand by reselling OS/X on their computers.
I think the way around it is to not install OS/X, but sell shrink wrapped copies alongside their computers.
I don't think there will be many takers though.
The $599 Psystar hardly represents a great deal. AFter you add FW, Bluetooth, wireless N, iLife, monitor, keyboard, and mouse you are in iMac price range.
The folks interested in this type of computer will just build their own.
Psystar might be better off just selling their "hack."
I was going to stay out of this arguement, but your comments need addressing.
You state that the $600.00 isn't a nice price. You have to consider that most folks who would buy this system already have a keyboard, mouse and monitor - just like with the Mac mini. Most folks don't use firewire anymore, but it can be added if needed. Wireless on a desktop? If you truly need it, you can get a reliable PCI card cheap. You forgot to mention that the $50.00 they charge you gets you both Life AND iWork.
Let us compare the differences for similar machines. I am not including the iMac since it is a all-in-one machine.
Psystar:
Leopard + iLife + iWork
2.8Ghz Core Duo
2GB RAM
500GB 7200RPM HDD
20x DVD burner
Geforce 9500GT w/512MB dedicated (DVI and VGA)
3 Port Firewire 800
Wireless N
Bluetooth
$997.00
Mac Mini:
Leopard + iLife + iWork
2.26Ghz Core Duo
2GB RAM
320GB 5400RPM HDD
8x DVD burner
Intel Geforce 9400M 256MB shared (display port and mini-dvi_
1 Port Firewire 800
Wireless N
Bluetooth
$998.00
Bang for buck, the Psystar wins. HOW is this not a good deal? Please don't include that "maybe" there will be driver conflicts, etc. That conjecture has no basis in fact. It seems that it would be in Psystars best interest to make sure everything works.
Would I buy one? Maybe. These machines don't have support for Bootcamp, which is a downer. But, I haven't heard anything negative regarding virtualization with these machines. You would think if someone wanted to poo-poo Psystar that issue would have been brought up by now.
The point that NEEDS to be made is that Apple is totally IGNORING a sector of the market. Many of use would prefer a mini-tower Mac, yet Apple refuses to provide such a device. My old mac mini is nice, but upgrading it is really a pain in the a#$ and there is only so much I can do. The new models don't even allow for cpu swaps...grrr. The iMac doesn't work either. All-in-one is a bad idea. With a mini-tower, if my monitor goes down, I just swap it out. With the iMac, I loose my computer while it is repaired. The Mac Pro is too much machine and too expensive as well.
As it stands, my next machine will be a windows machine since I need expandability. If Apple would provide another option, I would jump at it.
I don't understand the basis for your argument. I think we all know that any machine with desktop-grade components are going to give you more bang for the buck over a machine with notebook-grade parts. Like it or not, the Mac mini isn't marketed as a low-end PC, just Apple's low-end PC.
My point was to dispute hillstone's ridiculous claim that the Open(3) was more expensive than a Mini when all he did was unfairly max out the Open(3). At that point, a fair comparison would be between the Open(3) and a Mac Pro. And that's a fight the Mac Pro loses as well. To get a vaguely comparable Mac Pro is nearly $3000 versus the Open(3)'s $1700.
And your last point is also relevant. As others have said, the Open(3) fills a niche that Apple is unwilling to fill. I have an iMac because that's all I could afford at the time. The Pro was too expensive and the Mini too underpowered. If Psystar had been around two years ago when I wanted to switch, I would have seriously considered giving them my $600 instead of the $1600 I gave Apple.
My point was to dispute hillstone's ridiculous claim that the Open(3) was more expensive than a Mini when all he did was unfairly max out the Open(3). At that point, a fair comparison would be between the Open(3) and a Mac Pro. And that's a fight the Mac Pro loses as well. To get a vaguely comparable Mac Pro is nearly $3000 versus the Open(3)'s $1700.
And your last point is also relevant. As others have said, the Open(3) fills a niche that Apple is unwilling to fill. I have an iMac because that's all I could afford at the time. The Pro was too expensive and the Mini too underpowered. If Psystar had been around two years ago when I wanted to switch, I would have seriously considered giving them my $600 instead of the $1600 I gave Apple.
Adding the components to the Psystar to equally match the Mini makes the Psystar more expensive than the Mini. You never bothered to go to their site to do it yourself. You just claimed their $599 stripped version was a better deal, when it is lacking features.
So go buy one if you think it is so great and let us know how you feel about it. Just don't talk BS like you have been doing.
More competition is great.
Goes to show you how much of a premium you pay for Apple products lol.
You obviously don't understand what goes into what you buy.
Bang for buck, the Psystar wins. HOW is this not a good deal? Please don't include that "maybe" there will be driver conflicts, etc. That conjecture has no basis in fact. It seems that it would be in Psystars best interest to make sure everything works.
You make some valid points. But like many Apple computer users i rely on a decent second hand price when I upgrade. It's a luxury few other computer users enjoy. I'd be curious to know how much one of these budget Mac clones would fetch on Ebay.