Apple close to unveiling guarded Snow Leopard UI overhaul

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  • Reply 101 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    My thought on this is that many of the "features" that Apple is adding, Quicktime X, the Cocoa Finder, and numerous others, will work perfectly well on a late dual cpu G4, and on G5 machines. Apple could have a release for them, without the Intel, multicore features, and announce that it will be the last PPC release, except for bug, and security fixes



    I agree with this, re PPC support for Snow Leopard.



    I use the system requirements for iLife 09 as my basis for this and believe that PPC will get some

    of the SL goodness, although it may be slowish and stuttery and annoying, a little like iMovie 09

    on PPC iMac at home.
  • Reply 102 of 122
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bikerdude View Post


    I agree with this, re PPC support for Snow Leopard.



    I use the system requirements for iLife 09 as my basis for this and believe that PPC will get some

    of the SL goodness, although it may be slowish and stuttery and annoying, a little like iMovie 09

    on PPC iMac at home.



    The problem though is that if Apple delivers a PPC version it simply slows the development cycle down. For every feature they add they have to debug and test it on x86 and PPC.



    Granted I'm sure Apple really wants to deliver a solid OS for PPC users and frankly Leopard seems to be that OS but I'm not sure they really want to extend PPC legacy support out another OS cycle. Most PPC based Macs are going on 4 years old or older. It's becoming a natural time for them to be upgraded.
  • Reply 103 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    The problem though is that if Apple delivers a PPC version it simply slows the development cycle down. For every feature they add they have to debug and test it on x86 and PPC.



    Granted I'm sure Apple really wants to deliver a solid OS for PPC users and frankly Leopard seems to be that OS but I'm not sure they really want to extend PPC legacy support out another OS cycle. Most PPC based Macs are going on 4 years old or older. It's becoming a natural time for them to be upgraded.



    I can't argue with any of that, but I think that there is a lot in the iLife 09 software that runs on PPC which could be enhanced with what I have read about SL.



    Granted, a PPC G5 iMac will not get much benefit from most of what I have read on here but I would hope that the PowerMacs of the same era with multi cores could really see improvements.



    I think this would spur sales of more modern machines for these users as apposed to not supporting them and having those users hang on to what they have for grim death.
  • Reply 104 of 122
    Russian speaking people can view this post here
  • Reply 105 of 122
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by football930 View Post


    i'm guessing it will look something like this





    To those of you who said that this little mock up was horrible... what exactly makes it that way? Other than the background of the Icon View window being dark grey with black text, I like the idea of a direct thumbnail resize slider... and possibly using those other dark bars as favorites.



    As to the dark background with black text: you DO know that you can do that in Leopard, and I believe Tiger as well. In Icon View, hit Cmd-J, and choose a different color or even a background picture if ya want for just that window. I have some of my reference graphic folders with dark grey background and monster icons. Nothing new there.
  • Reply 106 of 122
    foljsfoljs Posts: 386member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greglo View Post


    No, that's not a safe assumption. I suggest you go and watch a single 400 MB+ flash movie (i.e. online TV) and watch as Safari ratchets up to over 1.5 GB of memory use, even with a restart and everything cleared.



    Em, if you are regularly (or even once) watching 400 MB+ flash movies, I thing the problem lies in your browsing habits. And Safari crashing is a fair punishment to that (I would also suggest been poked with hot iron, but that's just me).



    Quote:

    It's 'too much' when I can 'assess' that the memory usage is: a.) Disproportionate to the tasks being performed. b.) Disproportionate to the time running.



    And you can "assess" that based on what? Your engineering degree and/oe deep knowledge of the trade-offs decided?



    Quote:

    I probably would, yes. Unfortunately Safari does that caching (see a.)) but is still slow.



    Yes, like shown on all those benchmarks that show it *blazing* fast and faster than other browsers...



    Quote:

    Eventually when the program hits over 1 GB generally its impossible to carry on with any sort reasonable responsiveness.



    When it get's "over 1 GB" eh? Must be those nice, nimble 400MB+ flash files you keep watching...



    Quote:

    Apple hasn't focused on anything with Safari 3. They just need you to believe they did.



    A qualified opinion if I ever show one. You *do* know that the code for Safari's engine is Open Source and out there, and that the progress to it is generally well documented on the development blog?
  • Reply 107 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    The problem though is that if Apple delivers a PPC version it simply slows the development cycle down. For every feature they add they have to debug and test it on x86 and PPC.



    Granted I'm sure Apple really wants to deliver a solid OS for PPC users and frankly Leopard seems to be that OS but I'm not sure they really want to extend PPC legacy support out another OS cycle. Most PPC based Macs are going on 4 years old or older. It's becoming a natural time for them to be upgraded.



    They can afford to do this one more time. It's good will. How much is that worth?



    They are no longer a small company, personnel numbers are no longer an excuse for anything they do.
  • Reply 108 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


    To those of you who said that this little mock up was horrible... what exactly makes it that way? Other than the background of the Icon View window being dark grey with black text, I like the idea of a direct thumbnail resize slider... and possibly using those other dark bars as favorites.



    As to the dark background with black text: you DO know that you can do that in Leopard, and I believe Tiger as well. In Icon View, hit Cmd-J, and choose a different color or even a background picture if ya want for just that window. I have some of my reference graphic folders with dark grey background and monster icons. Nothing new there.



    Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. What you've done shouldn't be done.
  • Reply 109 of 122
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    They can afford to do this one more time. It's good will. How much is that worth?



    They are no longer a small company, personnel numbers are no longer an excuse for anything they do.



    I've got 5 PPC Macs myself so it's not like i'm not affected. I disagree about the personnel, from what I've read Bertrand Serlet's team is quite small. I think it's clear that the iPhone work delayed the release of Leopard and it could do the same with Snow Leopard.



    While it's nice to think about Apple throwing PPC owners a bone they are a business that needs profits and helping people keep their 4+ year old Mac going isn't generating the type of business that keeps Wall St happy.
  • Reply 110 of 122
    lorrelorre Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    They can afford to do this one more time. It's good will. How much is that worth?



    They are no longer a small company, personnel numbers are no longer an excuse for anything they do.



    I can see Apple still supporting PPC up until 2011, but that doesn't mean Snow Leopard will be PPC.



    Apple still supports Macs with G3 processors.



    Tiger still gets security updates, Safari 4 hast a Tiger version, iWork '09 works with Tiger and G4 processors of 500MHz (which are OLD) etc. You can run the latest and greatest iWork on machines that are 9 years old, if that doesn't show Apple is all for legacy support, I don't know what is.



    Your PPC G5 machines will be well supported by Apple for years to come, but I think it's about time that Apple releases some new products that ditch PPC.
  • Reply 111 of 122
    hezekiahbhezekiahb Posts: 448member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    If Apple will be moving to light type over a dark background, that's not in the guidelines.



    In fact, that's OUT of guidelines overall, where in publishing, it's long been recognized that light type on a dark background is less legible, and less readable. I don't see how following Apple's OLD guidelines will help.



    On print this may be true but on backlit screens I have found this to be very untrue. If I have a large article to read I often press Ctrl+option+Cmd+8 to invert colors so I can read the article. This is especially helpful in low light conditions where my screen is much dimmer.
  • Reply 112 of 122
    gustavgustav Posts: 826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post


    On print this may be true but on backlit screens I have found this to be very untrue. If I have a large article to read I often press Ctrl+option+Cmd+8 to invert colors so I can read the article. This is especially helpful in low light conditions where my screen is much dimmer.



    It must be subjective. Even on long articles, dark text on a light background is more comfortable for me to read. I can't stand sites that have light text on dark backgrounds. My coworker is the opposite.
  • Reply 113 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I've got 5 PPC Macs myself so it's not like i'm not affected. I disagree about the personnel, from what I've read Bertrand Serlet's team is quite small. I think it's clear that the iPhone work delayed the release of Leopard and it could do the same with Snow Leopard.



    While it's nice to think about Apple throwing PPC owners a bone they are a business that needs profits and helping people keep their 4+ year old Mac going isn't generating the type of business that keeps Wall St happy.



    I really can't agree with that. As you know, I'm one of those people who always talks about Apple as a business, in response to people who ask for features that almost no one wants. This is different. Apple used to be quite good at this. It seems that the bigger and richer they get, the less they want to keep their older machine using customers happy.



    I don't care how small his team is, it should be bigger. There's no excuse for Apple to not spend some of that $28.5 billion on personnel. I know that it takes time to get new people up and running, but they've now had almost two years to do so after the fiasco with the original iPhone.



    Making excuses for them doesn't cut the mustard. You simply can't say that having another 20 programmers on staff for projects like this is going to make any difference in their profitability. How much does their salaries cut into $1 billion in profit each quarter?
  • Reply 114 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lorre View Post


    I can see Apple still supporting PPC up until 2011, but that doesn't mean Snow Leopard will be PPC.



    Apple still supports Macs with G3 processors.



    Tiger still gets security updates, Safari 4 hast a Tiger version, iWork '09 works with Tiger and G4 processors of 500MHz (which are OLD) etc. You can run the latest and greatest iWork on machines that are 9 years old, if that doesn't show Apple is all for legacy support, I don't know what is.



    Your PPC G5 machines will be well supported by Apple for years to come, but I think it's about time that Apple releases some new products that ditch PPC.



    Apple "supports" those old machines with help with some problems. The law is that companies must provide a certain level of support for products that are 7 years old. That's why Apple "supports" those old machines in minimal ways. But it doesn't support them with new OS updates, upgrades, or software.



    In fact, if your machine is less than an 866 MHz G4, Apple doesn't give you any OS support at all. Now, this could extend to all PPC machines. Even those bought three years ago.



    We used to be able to tell our PC using friends that we could install the latest OS on a machine 5 to 8 years old. now, we can't say that.



    If you carefully read what I said, I wasn't calling for a full 10.6 release for the PPC machines. Only for the ones that had enough "oomph" to run what could be expected to run on a PPC machine. Obviously, areas in which those machine couldn't function couldn't be supported. But much could. It wouldn't need to be a Universal version of the release. There could, and should be, two versions. The Intel version wouldn't be burdened by having PPC code.



    Honestly, this wouldn't cost Apple more than a couple of million to do. It's just the cost of a dozen, or at most two dozen, extra programmers over the time needed. It's not as though Apple doesn't already have many on staff.



    I've also pointed out that Apple could easily afford this. They are no longer the $5.5 billion company whose continuation was in doubt. But, then, they were more concerned about supporting older customers than they are now. Ironic, isn't it?
  • Reply 115 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post


    On print this may be true but on backlit screens I have found this to be very untrue. If I have a large article to read I often press Ctrl+option+Cmd+8 to invert colors so I can read the article. This is especially helpful in low light conditions where my screen is much dimmer.



    It's true on monitors as well. There have been more than a few studies over the years that show that. If you're different, well, that's you.



    You can turn the brightness and contrast to the point at which you are satisfied.



    It's also a myth that the eye and brain cares whether something is backlit or not. It really doesn't know the difference. It's all a matter of brightness and contrast. Black type over a light grey background is considered to be excellent. Or changing the background to some other warm pastel shade.



    I've measured the brightness levels of magazine pages, and compared them to that of properly set-up monitors, and the levels are about the same. Too many people leave a monitor at factory levels, which are far too blue, and too bright. That could be a problem. The responsibility for that is with the user.
  • Reply 116 of 122
    New Mac user here.. What does it typically cost to upgrade to a new version of Mac OS?

    I just got my MacBook Pro last year so it's running Leopard.



    Thanks
  • Reply 117 of 122
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by reason2009 View Post


    New Mac user here.. What does it typically cost to upgrade to a new version of Mac OS?

    I just got my MacBook Pro last year so it's running Leopard.



    Thanks



    Teach a man to fish...
  • Reply 118 of 122
    thttht Posts: 4,630member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    It's the difference between an document centred UI (Windows) and an application centred UI (almost any Unix system and Macs). It's one of the main advantages of Macs in general and a central reason as to why the UI is easier to use than Windows.



    To think that they should change the central differentiating factor of the OS so that it's like MS Windows, (which would break almost every application out there), just because people who use multiple monitors have a "hard time" with it is just nuts.



    Who says I want it like MS Windows?



    I said I favored right-click pop-up menus (maybe even a half-pie hierarchal pop-up menu), but putting a menu button a la the gear (the action) button is more of a 2nd option in my mind. Right or secondary click options are right there, next to the object one is trying to do something with. For small screens and single-tasking orienting computing back in the 80s, the app menus were a good solution, but we've really gone a lot bigger in screen sizes, screen resolutions, and the number of things going on at the same time in the past 2 decades. It is really long past time to start moving away from some of the UI conventions of the past because "app-menus in the MenuBar UI" convention isn't really holding up.
  • Reply 119 of 122
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by reason2009 View Post


    New Mac user here.. What does it typically cost to upgrade to a new version of Mac OS?

    I just got my MacBook Pro last year so it's running Leopard.



    Thanks



    Often amazon, and some other stores, offer the OS at a discount from Apple's price. So you may see it at $10 to $20 off.
  • Reply 120 of 122
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Yes, if they're additions, or better ways of doing things.



    To me features means the ability to do something new, not merely a new presentation of the same thing. You wouldn't call a car offered in a new color a feature. My point is what constitutes a feature is up for debate. Apple can completely change the color and location of it's GUI without considering this to be a feature.
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