Exactly. People are starting to have their whole life in their computers. Family pictures, movies, music, financial data.. etc. Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files. I already lost enough data from my older Windows PCs due to HDD failures caused by Windows hibernation and other cheap HW issues. At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore.
While I like Apple systems and have used them since my first Apple IIc I really think you need to pay attention to what you just wrote...
"...Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files...At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore..."
Um, does this mean you wouldn't trust your files with a $599.00 Mac Mini...or even a refurbished Mac Mini selling in the mid $400s?
Apple really does need to adjust their prices to be more in line with the current market, especially with laptops. The thing with laptops is, most of them are the same. The same parts, made in the same factory. HP sells a number of laptops that have better specs than their Mac counterparts for less than half of the Mac. Apple's premium is OS X. Sure it's worth more money to get the Mac, but how much more? A few hundred dollars, maybe, but not double the price or more.
I've been doing a lot of comparison shopping on laptops lately, as both my wife and my mother in law want to buy new ones, and neither is all that hot on Macs. It's impossible for me to sell them on why they need a Mac (even if it can run Windows), when they cost so much more for no legitimate reason. If the specs were that much better, I could use that, but in many cases the cheaper PC laptop even beats the Mac on specs. The fact that no Mac laptop even has a memory card reader or a number pad is something I have to agree with my wife as being inexcusable. It's very frustrating, to the point that it's making me reconsider if I want to buy a Macbook Pro myself when I could get a much better HP for less than half the price. The fact that I could conceivably hackintosh it if I bought the right model is even more enticing.
I've never seen a laptop on the PC side that was anywhere close to be comparable to a Mac laptop at half the price.
Memory card reader. Puhleeze that's just a dust collector and most laptops don't have a number pad unless they're 17" or larger.
What's inexcusable to me is shipping VGA outputs in 2000 fckn 9 or the craptastic PC keyboards that buckle or lose keyes easily. I laugh everytime I walk into Best Buy and start counting the displaymodels with missing keys.
Participants found on Craigslist were given between $700 to $2,000 to buy a computer fitting certain criteria, and were told they could keep the computer they selected.
One participant named Lauren was told to buy a 17" notebook for less than $1000. She was then filmed entering an Apple Store where she couldn't find one. Lauren then heads to Best Buy and selects a $699 HP machine running Windows. That experience was turned into a 60 second TV spot for Microsoft after the agency told the buyer that the purpose of the excursion was really to promote Windows.
What an idiot. She deserve to be using a PC. If some one gave me $1000 to buy a 17" laptop (that cost less than $1000) and I got to keep the laptop I buy. You can be sure I'll find one for $999.99.
Unless of course, if I got to keep the change. Then I'll look for one that cost $499.00
When my mom needed a new computer (last November), to process her pics from her new Nikon D60, I wanted something that could last her for years, and for the price ($600), it wasn't the pidly Mac Mini with a gig of RAM, an 80 GB HD, etc, but the Dell with 4 GB of RAM and a 640 GB HD, GMA x3100 graphics....
I can do the photo editing on my $600 Mini, but it's a bit slow, and the 80 GB HD is a serious drawback, and iPhoto simply sucks.
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
Shit OS
Shit graphics
Lots of RAM and HDD space
What impact do you think graphics performance will have on a 60 year old woman?
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
Shit OS
Shit graphics
Lots of RAM and HDD space
I think you completely missed the "last November" part. The then Mini had shit graphics, shit HD, next to no RAM for the money, and not even a DVD burner for $600. I know, because that's the same Mini I have, but got in Dec 07, but in no way, could I recommend that for her at that time.
Plus, the Dell had a built-in card reader, so all she has to do, is stick the memory card into the reader.
At the time, OSX would've been fine, but iLife wasn't worth it, and all she really uses her computer for, is e-mail, web, storing photos, and Freecell. What could an overpriced Mini do that a Dell couldn't, especially considering most of time is spent in a web browser, for that, the OS is irrelevant.
As for lasting for years, the last PC I built for her, lasted about 5 years, cost about $900 at the time, including an LCD monitor, and a quiet Antec Sonata case, as that's what she wanted. I think I can count on one hand, the number of crashes she ever had with it, maybe 3 or 4. And it was running an Nvidia FX5500 at the very end, which she never, ever noticed was even there.
Freecell, web, e-mail, and pictures. That's all my mom has ever really used her PC for. If people think that it has to be on a $1000+ computer anymore, with a particular OS, they're just crazy.
What impact do you think graphics performance will have on a 60 year old woman?
She does photowork thus the GPU is becoming more important within a Mac workflow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
I think you completely missed the "last November" part. The then Mini had shit graphics, shit HD, next to no RAM for the money, and not even a DVD burner for $600. I know, because that's the same Mini I have, but got in Dec 07, but in no way, could I recommend that for her at that time.
Plus, the Dell had a built-in card reader, so all she has to do, is stick the memory card into the reader.
At the time, OSX would've been fine, but iLife wasn't worth it, and all she really uses her computer for, is e-mail, web, storing photos, and Freecell. What could an overpriced Mini do that a Dell couldn't, especially considering most of time is spent in a web browser, for that, the OS is irrelevant.
As for lasting for years, the last PC I built for her, lasted about 5 years, cost about $900 at the time, including an LCD monitor, and a quiet Antec Sonata case, as that's what she wanted. I think I can count on one hand, the number of crashes she ever had with it, maybe 3 or 4. And it was running an Nvidia FX5500 at the very end, which she never, ever noticed was even there.
Freecell, web, e-mail, and pictures. That's all my mom has ever really used her PC for. If people think that it has to be on a $1000+ computer anymore, with a particular OS, they're just crazy.
Yes that would make a big difference there. I feel safe in recommending the new Mac mini to my mother ..in fact I may just buy one for her but I do see the quandry you were in. I wish I could say my mother hasn't crashed her PC that much but she tends to be a maverick and isn't afraid of trying new software out and often something goes haywire.
Agreed on the last part. it's getting to the point where the basics are easily covered by the entry level computers. I'd like to see Apple do a better job of maintaining the mini. It's not a cash cow..so what. If they had made the iMac more compelling they wouldn't have to be so miserly with the mini.
While I like Apple systems and have used them since my first Apple IIc I really think you need to pay attention to what you just wrote...
"...Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files...At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore..."
Um, does this mean you wouldn't trust your files with a $599.00 Mac Mini...or even a refurbished Mac Mini selling in the mid $400s?
We are about $600 computers that suppose to offer high end specs and performance. I know what I wrote might seem unclear but you need to follow the discussion to get the picture
Haha, cheap technique MS, you guys are a software company, not a hardware company like you all want the public to see, stick to ads that prove your OS is not as bad as people think rather then showing that you guys are "hardware" companies and besides, in hardware sales, PC still beats Mac like nuts, MS is just overreacting over the boo boo of their lamo Vista sales and use PC hardwares as a cover up. LAME!
As a Mac and PC user, mostly mac now, this might work. Check out the new screen shots if windows mobile, it's leaps and bound better than 6.5. I think it's only a matter if time before MSFT catches on w the GUI.
Anyway, with todayies economy us the fact that apple over charges, and alawya has a gotcha ALS MacBook good gpu but no FireWire, ovrrprced mini, an enemic education iMac with 5+year gpu, apple in terms of computers, are over priced and behind ( no i7 or mid range), and could sway some users.
After years if pounding from apple maybe karma or reaping what you sow is coming to Apple but then again, after seeing past msft commercials, does anyone have faith in msft's marketing and promotions deparments?????
Say what you want but try and get your parents/grandparents (or most non-tech savvy) 50+ year old customers to buy an apple when they can walk into a best buy and get one for 1/2 the price? (I stress NON TECH SAVVY Baby boomers I don't hate you!)
Example, my mother-in-law destroys her notebook computers. She bangs them around, tries to run 3 anti-virus programs at the same time and pulls the plug out while it is still shutting down. I Tried to explain "But you don't have to have 3x anti virus programs with a Mac" and "They are more expensive but they come with these (showed iLife programs) that basically do what you want to do 90% of the time. But all I got was "Yeah.. but look I can get an HP/Asus/Acer/Toshiba for only $799 on sale at Best Buy!!"
It was hopeless, especially since many people lost more than half of their 401k/savings/stocks they are more paranoid now than ever. Yes the 9% market share (mostly on these forums) are technophiles with a higher-education degree, still have decent if not very well paying jobs and survived the economic downturn but there are way more wal-mart budget consumers than there are of us so as long as Apple continues this pricing strategy they will only happily stay at the sub 15% level.
Actually, it's a well done ad for folks that really don't know better, or for people really on a budget and this is all they need. It will probably do well for MS.
Personally, if I were on such a tight budget, I'd just look for a used MacBook, or settle with a white MacBook, which I currently use, but I can see the appeal of this ad for many buyers.
"One HP buyer pointed out that this model series "has the worst screen I have ever seen in my life. It's the 1440x900 screen and the viewing angles are so poor that even when sitting directly eye level with the screen it is totally washed out. If I go a little bit off-axis the screen results in a negative image."
I must admit, as someone that has to support Macs, I see many of the new MacBooks that I could say the same thing about the screen's look... they are just awful, and I wouldn't purchase one because of that fact alone, not including the lack of FW. I'll continue to hold onto my old white MacBook.
Finally, what is it with Ballmer?! Is he on crack or something? He scares the crap outta me!
She does photowork thus the GPU is becoming more important within a Mac workflow.
Yes that would make a big difference there. I feel safe in recommending the new Mac mini to my mother ..in fact I may just buy one for her but I do see the quandry you were in. I wish I could say my mother hasn't crashed her PC that much but she tends to be a maverick and isn't afraid of trying new software out and often something goes haywire.
Agreed on the last part. it's getting to the point where the basics are easily covered by the entry level computers. I'd like to see Apple do a better job of maintaining the mini. It's not a cash cow..so what. If they had made the iMac more compelling they wouldn't have to be so miserly with the mini.
You know. I think people really forget that when Vista came out msft still supported so and win me and 98. Msft going for one os nowkeeping in mind I. T. never updated to vista but will for Win 7 combined with one os from Redmond, I think microsoft may have a hit this time around and Apple will be fine but will focus more on consumer electronics. They have IMHO, lost their vision as a computer developer, especially one if cutting edge.
Expect to get what you pay for. As the old saying goes, "Quality is like buying oats. If you want good, fresh oats, you’ll have to pay a fair price. If, however, you’re satisfied with oats that have already passed through the horse, you may be able to save a little money."
She says "I'm just not cool enough to be a Mac person"
That Ad Agency is dumber than I can even imagine!!!
Yep. She also says "I got just what I wanted," but she went to the Apple store first, because that's what she really wanted. Then she settled for something else, based upon price. That's fine -- money's tight for many folks -- but to say this ad sends mixed messages would be the understatement of the year.
Synopsis:
? I really want a Mac.
? I don't have enough money; I'm not "cool enough" to be a Mac person.
Actually, it's a well done ad for folks that really don't know better, or for people really on a budget and this is all they need. It will probably do well for MS.
Personally, if I were on such a tight budget, I'd just look for a used MacBook, or settle with a white MacBook, which I currently use, but I can see the appeal of this ad for many buyers.
"One HP buyer pointed out that this model series "has the worst screen I have ever seen in my life. It's the 1440x900 screen and the viewing angles are so poor that even when sitting directly eye level with the screen it is totally washed out. If I go a little bit off-axis the screen results in a negative image."
I must admit, as someone that has to support Macs, I see many of the new MacBooks that I could say the same thing about the screen's look... they are just awful, and I wouldn't purchase one because of that fact alone, not including the lack of FW. I'll continue to hold onto my old white MacBook.
Finally, what is it with Ballmer?! Is he on crack or something? He scares the crap outta me!
without starting a flame war can we be real here???
Terrible screen? You do know the white and black MacBooks have terrible screens right? A far cry trim the mbpro line. Look at any white/black MacBook from an angle. Terrible. And these are still $1000.00. Surprised no one picked up on this. Hmm.
Comments
Exactly. People are starting to have their whole life in their computers. Family pictures, movies, music, financial data.. etc. Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files. I already lost enough data from my older Windows PCs due to HDD failures caused by Windows hibernation and other cheap HW issues. At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore.
While I like Apple systems and have used them since my first Apple IIc I really think you need to pay attention to what you just wrote...
"...Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files...At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore..."
Um, does this mean you wouldn't trust your files with a $599.00 Mac Mini...or even a refurbished Mac Mini selling in the mid $400s?
Apple really does need to adjust their prices to be more in line with the current market, especially with laptops. The thing with laptops is, most of them are the same. The same parts, made in the same factory. HP sells a number of laptops that have better specs than their Mac counterparts for less than half of the Mac. Apple's premium is OS X. Sure it's worth more money to get the Mac, but how much more? A few hundred dollars, maybe, but not double the price or more.
I've been doing a lot of comparison shopping on laptops lately, as both my wife and my mother in law want to buy new ones, and neither is all that hot on Macs. It's impossible for me to sell them on why they need a Mac (even if it can run Windows), when they cost so much more for no legitimate reason. If the specs were that much better, I could use that, but in many cases the cheaper PC laptop even beats the Mac on specs. The fact that no Mac laptop even has a memory card reader or a number pad is something I have to agree with my wife as being inexcusable. It's very frustrating, to the point that it's making me reconsider if I want to buy a Macbook Pro myself when I could get a much better HP for less than half the price. The fact that I could conceivably hackintosh it if I bought the right model is even more enticing.
I've never seen a laptop on the PC side that was anywhere close to be comparable to a Mac laptop at half the price.
Memory card reader. Puhleeze that's just a dust collector and most laptops don't have a number pad unless they're 17" or larger.
What's inexcusable to me is shipping VGA outputs in 2000 fckn 9 or the craptastic PC keyboards that buckle or lose keyes easily. I laugh everytime I walk into Best Buy and start counting the displaymodels with missing keys.
Participants found on Craigslist were given between $700 to $2,000 to buy a computer fitting certain criteria, and were told they could keep the computer they selected.
One participant named Lauren was told to buy a 17" notebook for less than $1000. She was then filmed entering an Apple Store where she couldn't find one. Lauren then heads to Best Buy and selects a $699 HP machine running Windows. That experience was turned into a 60 second TV spot for Microsoft after the agency told the buyer that the purpose of the excursion was really to promote Windows.
What an idiot. She deserve to be using a PC. If some one gave me $1000 to buy a 17" laptop (that cost less than $1000) and I got to keep the laptop I buy. You can be sure I'll find one for $999.99.
Unless of course, if I got to keep the change. Then I'll look for one that cost $499.00
Way to go. Will this one have little 7 year old girls alone on a computer?
When my mom needed a new computer (last November), to process her pics from her new Nikon D60, I wanted something that could last her for years, and for the price ($600), it wasn't the pidly Mac Mini with a gig of RAM, an 80 GB HD, etc, but the Dell with 4 GB of RAM and a 640 GB HD, GMA x3100 graphics....
I can do the photo editing on my $600 Mini, but it's a bit slow, and the 80 GB HD is a serious drawback, and iPhoto simply sucks.
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
Shit OS
Shit graphics
Lots of RAM and HDD space
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
Shit OS
Shit graphics
Lots of RAM and HDD space
What impact do you think graphics performance will have on a 60 year old woman?
A $600 PC is going to last for years but it won't be easy. She's already at a disadvantage because of the craptastic GMA x3100. Not even close to the Nvidia GPU in the new Mac mini. The RAM and HDD can be upgraded in both machines.
Shit OS
Shit graphics
Lots of RAM and HDD space
I think you completely missed the "last November" part. The then Mini had shit graphics, shit HD, next to no RAM for the money, and not even a DVD burner for $600. I know, because that's the same Mini I have, but got in Dec 07, but in no way, could I recommend that for her at that time.
Plus, the Dell had a built-in card reader, so all she has to do, is stick the memory card into the reader.
At the time, OSX would've been fine, but iLife wasn't worth it, and all she really uses her computer for, is e-mail, web, storing photos, and Freecell. What could an overpriced Mini do that a Dell couldn't, especially considering most of time is spent in a web browser, for that, the OS is irrelevant.
As for lasting for years, the last PC I built for her, lasted about 5 years, cost about $900 at the time, including an LCD monitor, and a quiet Antec Sonata case, as that's what she wanted. I think I can count on one hand, the number of crashes she ever had with it, maybe 3 or 4. And it was running an Nvidia FX5500 at the very end, which she never, ever noticed was even there.
Freecell, web, e-mail, and pictures. That's all my mom has ever really used her PC for. If people think that it has to be on a $1000+ computer anymore, with a particular OS, they're just crazy.
What impact do you think graphics performance will have on a 60 year old woman?
She does photowork thus the GPU is becoming more important within a Mac workflow.
I think you completely missed the "last November" part. The then Mini had shit graphics, shit HD, next to no RAM for the money, and not even a DVD burner for $600. I know, because that's the same Mini I have, but got in Dec 07, but in no way, could I recommend that for her at that time.
Plus, the Dell had a built-in card reader, so all she has to do, is stick the memory card into the reader.
At the time, OSX would've been fine, but iLife wasn't worth it, and all she really uses her computer for, is e-mail, web, storing photos, and Freecell. What could an overpriced Mini do that a Dell couldn't, especially considering most of time is spent in a web browser, for that, the OS is irrelevant.
As for lasting for years, the last PC I built for her, lasted about 5 years, cost about $900 at the time, including an LCD monitor, and a quiet Antec Sonata case, as that's what she wanted. I think I can count on one hand, the number of crashes she ever had with it, maybe 3 or 4. And it was running an Nvidia FX5500 at the very end, which she never, ever noticed was even there.
Freecell, web, e-mail, and pictures. That's all my mom has ever really used her PC for. If people think that it has to be on a $1000+ computer anymore, with a particular OS, they're just crazy.
Yes that would make a big difference there. I feel safe in recommending the new Mac mini to my mother ..in fact I may just buy one for her but I do see the quandry you were in. I wish I could say my mother hasn't crashed her PC that much but she tends to be a maverick and isn't afraid of trying new software out and often something goes haywire.
Agreed on the last part. it's getting to the point where the basics are easily covered by the entry level computers. I'd like to see Apple do a better job of maintaining the mini. It's not a cash cow..so what. If they had made the iMac more compelling they wouldn't have to be so miserly with the mini.
While I like Apple systems and have used them since my first Apple IIc I really think you need to pay attention to what you just wrote...
"...Personally, I wouldn't trust a $600 computer with my files...At least with Mac and TC I don't have to worry about backup anymore..."
Um, does this mean you wouldn't trust your files with a $599.00 Mac Mini...or even a refurbished Mac Mini selling in the mid $400s?
We are about $600 computers that suppose to offer high end specs and performance. I know what I wrote might seem unclear but you need to follow the discussion to get the picture
More free advertising for Apple! Thanks, PC!
As a Mac and PC user, mostly mac now, this might work. Check out the new screen shots if windows mobile, it's leaps and bound better than 6.5. I think it's only a matter if time before MSFT catches on w the GUI.
Anyway, with todayies economy us the fact that apple over charges, and alawya has a gotcha ALS MacBook good gpu but no FireWire, ovrrprced mini, an enemic education iMac with 5+year gpu, apple in terms of computers, are over priced and behind ( no i7 or mid range), and could sway some users.
After years if pounding from apple maybe karma or reaping what you sow is coming to Apple but then again, after seeing past msft commercials, does anyone have faith in msft's marketing and promotions deparments?????
Example, my mother-in-law destroys her notebook computers. She bangs them around, tries to run 3 anti-virus programs at the same time and pulls the plug out while it is still shutting down. I Tried to explain "But you don't have to have 3x anti virus programs with a Mac" and "They are more expensive but they come with these (showed iLife programs) that basically do what you want to do 90% of the time. But all I got was "Yeah.. but look I can get an HP/Asus/Acer/Toshiba for only $799 on sale at Best Buy!!"
It was hopeless, especially since many people lost more than half of their 401k/savings/stocks they are more paranoid now than ever. Yes the 9% market share (mostly on these forums) are technophiles with a higher-education degree, still have decent if not very well paying jobs and survived the economic downturn but there are way more wal-mart budget consumers than there are of us so as long as Apple continues this pricing strategy they will only happily stay at the sub 15% level.
Personally, if I were on such a tight budget, I'd just look for a used MacBook, or settle with a white MacBook, which I currently use, but I can see the appeal of this ad for many buyers.
"One HP buyer pointed out that this model series "has the worst screen I have ever seen in my life. It's the 1440x900 screen and the viewing angles are so poor that even when sitting directly eye level with the screen it is totally washed out. If I go a little bit off-axis the screen results in a negative image."
I must admit, as someone that has to support Macs, I see many of the new MacBooks that I could say the same thing about the screen's look... they are just awful, and I wouldn't purchase one because of that fact alone, not including the lack of FW. I'll continue to hold onto my old white MacBook.
Finally, what is it with Ballmer?! Is he on crack or something? He scares the crap outta me!
She does photowork thus the GPU is becoming more important within a Mac workflow.
Yes that would make a big difference there. I feel safe in recommending the new Mac mini to my mother ..in fact I may just buy one for her but I do see the quandry you were in. I wish I could say my mother hasn't crashed her PC that much but she tends to be a maverick and isn't afraid of trying new software out and often something goes haywire.
Agreed on the last part. it's getting to the point where the basics are easily covered by the entry level computers. I'd like to see Apple do a better job of maintaining the mini. It's not a cash cow..so what. If they had made the iMac more compelling they wouldn't have to be so miserly with the mini.
You know. I think people really forget that when Vista came out msft still supported so and win me and 98. Msft going for one os nowkeeping in mind I. T. never updated to vista but will for Win 7 combined with one os from Redmond, I think microsoft may have a hit this time around and Apple will be fine but will focus more on consumer electronics. They have IMHO, lost their vision as a computer developer, especially one if cutting edge.
HOLY CRAP - watch the ad...
She says "I'm just not cool enough to be a Mac person"
That Ad Agency is dumber than I can even imagine!!!
Yep. She also says "I got just what I wanted," but she went to the Apple store first, because that's what she really wanted. Then she settled for something else, based upon price. That's fine -- money's tight for many folks -- but to say this ad sends mixed messages would be the understatement of the year.
Synopsis:
? I really want a Mac.
? I don't have enough money; I'm not "cool enough" to be a Mac person.
? Wow. PCs are cheaper, so I'll get one of those.
? "I got just what I wanted." <--- (You did?!?)
Actually, it's a well done ad for folks that really don't know better, or for people really on a budget and this is all they need. It will probably do well for MS.
Personally, if I were on such a tight budget, I'd just look for a used MacBook, or settle with a white MacBook, which I currently use, but I can see the appeal of this ad for many buyers.
"One HP buyer pointed out that this model series "has the worst screen I have ever seen in my life. It's the 1440x900 screen and the viewing angles are so poor that even when sitting directly eye level with the screen it is totally washed out. If I go a little bit off-axis the screen results in a negative image."
I must admit, as someone that has to support Macs, I see many of the new MacBooks that I could say the same thing about the screen's look... they are just awful, and I wouldn't purchase one because of that fact alone, not including the lack of FW. I'll continue to hold onto my old white MacBook.
Finally, what is it with Ballmer?! Is he on crack or something? He scares the crap outta me!
without starting a flame war can we be real here???
Terrible screen? You do know the white and black MacBooks have terrible screens right? A far cry trim the mbpro line. Look at any white/black MacBook from an angle. Terrible. And these are still $1000.00. Surprised no one picked up on this. Hmm.