My friend is a well-paid freelance consultant. He pointed out that with the time he had spent trying to get his Vista laptop to work properly, he could have bought a Macbook - and a Mercedes.
The value of a Mac increases with the value you put on your time and frustration - whether you measure that financially or, more importantly, as time to spend doing something else with your life.
I think this is a good point that many people here who base their purchases on price alone just do not get.
For example, I use a Mac in the office where everyone else uses Windows. Every day there is drama with the Windows machines where if it's not the physical machine being unstable, they have problems with system stability, crashes, freezing, BSD, viruses, etc.. So much productivity is lost that people do not factor in. It's irrelevant that they use many common parts, it's the entire package which includes the parts, build-quality, OS, user-experience, product-support, etc. Things the critics never really take into consideration.
My Mac on the other hand, never had anything go wrong with it and I spend all my time using my Mac as the tool it should be as opposed to a Windows machines that is like a patient on life-support.
I bill by the hour and my clients expect results. The money I would lose on lost productivity due to those problems more than surpasses the extra money spent up-front on a Mac.
The Wallmart documentary says it best: "The high cost of low prices".
I'm not against low prices. Even in this economy, it would be ridiculous to waste money that does not need to be spent. But one gets what they pay for.
But those defenders of low prices must have had their head stuck in the sand for so long that their backs are permanently stuck in that position. So sad.
Just wanted to say that I enjoy your comments. I've been reading them in this and other threads here and they're spot on.
I often wonder why Macs and Windows based machines can't just peacefully coexist. To me, they cater to different markets.
I did own a Mac for a short time--a PowerMac Dual G4 (1.3 GHz) running OS X Tiger, and I absolutely loved it. Everything was so intuitive--it seemed like it more closely meshed with my own thought processes and what I wanted out of an OS. And the hardware worked so much more harmoniously with the OS than I had ever experienced with a Windows machine. Unfortunately I had to sell it during a time when my family was strapped for cash.
Now we are intensely devoted to getting out of debt and putting off any unnecessary expenses until that goal is achieved. For the time being, I am using what I refer to as my "custom junker" PC for my computing needs. When the time is right, I will be buying another Mac. Could I buy a cheaper Windows based machine sooner? I could, yes. And I might even be somewhat pleased with it. But it wouldn't be a Mac. Delayed gratification is worth it.
And I'll probably keep my "custom junker" and upgrade it piece by piece for the sheer fun of it, because I'm a computer geek like that.
If you find something to relate to in what I say, I think that's great.
I'm glad to be here. Make too many of the kind of comments I make on Neowin.net, for example, and you get banned. Some people are just way too squeamish when it comes to debate. I've noticed around here, though, that people tend to have a thicker skin. Good to see.
I'm just wondering: has anyone seen an actual window existing without a wall? I mean the "Window" itself is a hollow in the wall, so Window its the part of the wall, which is missing, right? So the slogen "Windows - Life without walls" is actually saying "Life without windows". Or am i getting the message wrong? )))
(By the way: in the sense of security, "Windows" is an excelent choice of name for that OS.).
I think the intent of the slogan is to imply just the open-ness of "windows" without the containment or boundaries of "walls."
When you take it too literally, it does set itself up for ridicule, but then again, "think different" was not correct when taken literally either..
Apple must be pleased. Free advertising paid for by MS. Advertising that legitimizes Apple's own message: if you want cutting edge cool, and best quality, pay a bit more for a Mac. If you want adequate for a budget price, stick with Windows. Apple is not trying to steal the entire market; all they're trying to do is skim the cream off the top. Someday, when they've monopolized the high end, they'll start worrying about the low end. But right now, whether it's true or false, the reputation for being expensive is actually to their benefit. Apple has a brilliant business strategy, and now MS is falling all over itself to help out!
Apple must be pleased. Free advertising paid for by MS. Advertising that legitimizes Apple's own message: if you want cutting edge cool, and best quality, pay a bit more for a Mac. If you want adequate for a budget price, stick with Windows. Apple is not trying to steal the entire market; all they're trying to do is skim the cream off the top. Someday, when they've monopolized the high end, they'll start worrying about the low end. But right now, whether it's true or false, the reputation for being expensive is actually to their benefit. Apple has a brilliant business strategy, and now MS is falling all over itself to help out!
Good points.
Had MS just not included those references to Apple, all they'd then have is harmless, mediocre ad that resembles a generic car commercial. Lame and safe. But as it stands . . . they've just implied that their users are . . . losers.
It's not even a clever or creative dig at Apple (in the spirit of the I'm a Mac ads), it's just a derivative "we're cheaper" ad that has gone horribly wrong.
I think the Honda/Accura thing is off base. If you choose a Honda over an Accura, you still have a pretty dandy car but if you choose Windows over OS X, what you have is a steaming pile of unworkable crap. MS is in a VERY sharp downward trajectory but people don't get it the way people didn't get AIG and Citi. It looks impossible...until it starts looking possible...and then it's too late to make it impossible ever again.
So I have a bet with a friend for $1000 on the fact that I bet Apple would obtain a 20% market share worldwide within 10 years. I made the bet about 2 years ago and at this pace and the current state of things going on over at Microsoft, I plan to collect my winnings within the next 3-5 years.
Also... you know things are bad when long time PC guys like Dallas Mavericks owner and tech entrepreneur/blogger Mark Cuban write posts called Once you go Mac within a year or so of shooting this HP TV commercial. Oops! Can't imagine HP liked that too much. As Mark says... "I had gotten to the point where I was embarrassed to be a PC owner. The thought of someone calling me and asking me to go to my computer to find something was paralyzing."
Microsoft has lost all direction/innovation. While they're still a giant they better watchout or they'll be the one with 10% market share. Ballmer specifically is an embarrassment and should be replaced immediately.
If Microsoft portrayed the software and support expenses of generic Windows PCs into its slot machine graphics, the results would be less flattering.
I think the ads are pointless as well, but you can't convince me that someone who needs to run Microsoft Office and Quicken, surf the internet, and check their e-mail is getting a better deal buying a Mac. If someone's got $800 to buy a laptop they aren't going to buy a Mac, period. These people are Windows buyers no matter what. Apple has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in these people. They wouldn't build laptops with "precision aluminum unibody enclosures" if they were. I'm curious why Microsoft thinks they need to make this point.
As far as the "extra expense of software and support" - I call BS. My wife's HP Pavillion is going on three years old and its still going strong, it doesn't raid my wallet at night for extra cash. I dual boot, and I haven't had to spend an extra dime on Vista. Avira is great free antivirus software, Spybot is free, and Office only costs about $70 when you order it with a new Windows machine. 90% of still and video cameras come with free software (no one "needs" iLife, its fun if you like using it). And if people are replacing an old PC, they've probably got a bunch of software already. What the hell is there to spend a lot of money on? $700 will buy you a decent Dell or HP laptop.
As far as the Mac being trouble free? Well, mine have been for 15 years, but the Genius bar always seems to have a wait when I drop by the Apple store, so some people obviously have their issues.
So this ad campaign and all this posturing is ridiculous. If you want a Mac, buy a Mac. If you've got $1000, buy a $700 PC and save yourself a few bucks. If $1000 is a lot of money to you, spend it wisely.
Many time the phrase, "You get what you pay for," doesn't work but sometimes it does.
I can go buy 20 capsule box of Clartin 10mg at Walmart for my allergies. It will cost me $20, or I can read the active ingredients on the box of Equate's 30 capsule equivalent for only $8. Both are sold on the same display counter. Both contain the same active ingredients (10mg Loratadine). If I buy the brand name I lose big time. I'm not getting the premium I paid for.
I have had 3 Macs since 1995. The first two were expandable, are still working, and use Mac OS Tiger. Other than system software and memory upgrades, I never used that expansion capability. They still doing functional work.
The third and last Mac is an early April Intel iMac. It has everything I would ever need for up to date computing. But I have not experienced any of the frustrations my PC friends have. Have never had to reinstall the system, have had to find another computer to use because the Mac was being repaired, or needed to use anti-virus protection. I enjoy using my computer and can accomplish many task easily, that my PC friends, only can envy.
I paid the premium price that is Apple, but unlike buying "Clartin," I did get what I paid for. My PC friends have bought twice the amount of hardware than me, and none of it gave them the enjoyment that my Mac has given me.
My friend...pointed out that with the time he had spent trying to get his Vista laptop to work properly, he could have bought a Macbook - and a Mercedes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
I think this is a good point...
For example, I use a Mac in the office where everyone else uses Windows. Every day there is drama with the Windows machines where if it's not the physical machine being unstable, they have problems with system stability, crashes, freezing, BSD, viruses, etc..
I think the ads are pointless as well, but you can't convince me that someone who needs to run Microsoft Office and Quicken, surf the internet, and check their e-mail is getting a better deal buying a Mac. If someone's got $800 to buy a laptop they aren't going to buy a Mac, period. These people are Windows buyers no matter what. Apple has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in these people. They wouldn't build laptops with "precision aluminum unibody enclosures" if they were. I'm curious why Microsoft thinks they need to make this point.
As far as the "extra expense of software and support" - I call BS. My wife's HP Pavillion is going on three years old and its still going strong, it doesn't raid my wallet at night for extra cash. I dual boot, and I haven't had to spend an extra dime on Vista. Avira is great free antivirus software, Spybot is free, and Office only costs about $70 when you order it with a new Windows machine. 90% of still and video cameras come with free software (no one "needs" iLife, its fun if you like using it). And if people are replacing an old PC, they've probably got a bunch of software already. What the hell is there to spend a lot of money on? $700 will buy you a decent Dell or HP laptop.
As far as the Mac being trouble free? Well, mine have been for 15 years, but the Genius bar always seems to have a wait when I drop by the Apple store, so some people obviously have their issues.
So this ad campaign and all this posturing is ridiculous. If you want a Mac, buy a Mac. If you've got $1000, buy a $700 PC and save yourself a few bucks. If $1000 is a lot of money to you, spend it wisely.
You know, I agree with you to a point.. I know there are plenty of computer users who will never do anything more than email, surf the web, import a few photos and open the occasional word doc.. For them, if they are already accustomed to PC's and are on a tight budget, they may be better off buying a $500 to $700 PC.. As Apple has clearly re-iterated time and time again, they are not interested in creating products for that demographic.
The Mac's real value is in the software, for people who want to do more than the above.. The integration between the Mac hardware and OSX, and media creation with the iLife/iWork apps and Apple's mobile devices is where the real value lies for most users.. And of course, to do a lot of the media creation that you can do on a Mac, you will need better specs than you will find on most budget PC's. Hence, even with a 13" screen, the entry level MacBook is a very capable machine and reasonably priced for what you get.
Microsoft Office is the biggest piece of junk on the planet. It is very expensive and buggy. Let's look at the windoze OS. WIN 95 = junk, WIN 98 = junk, WIN Me = junk, WIN XP = almost useful, WIN VISTA = Junk, WIN 7 = unknown. Does Microsoft make hardware? Xbox = ring of death, MS mouse = works usually, MS Keyboard = junk, Zune = worthless.
I think that they need to look for a new line of business while they still have a war chest.
Comments
said:should have Rush Limbaugh in the Ad..........
...they look like twins, Balmer and Limbaugh. Two beef head bullies.
Never happen, Limbaugh is a diehard MacFanboy.
Do they sell Toyotas that have better specs and more features than a Lexus?
Analogy Fail...
Fiat and Ferrari, made by same manufacturer, I don't think we have to argue about the differences.
Was Microsoft's current anti-Apple advertising campaign also developed using Macs?
I'm not sure about that, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft's Mojave Experiment website is hosted on a Linux & Apache server.
http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/apache?
http://michael.susens-schurter.com/b...-linux-apache/
Oh, the irony.
My friend is a well-paid freelance consultant. He pointed out that with the time he had spent trying to get his Vista laptop to work properly, he could have bought a Macbook - and a Mercedes.
The value of a Mac increases with the value you put on your time and frustration - whether you measure that financially or, more importantly, as time to spend doing something else with your life.
I think this is a good point that many people here who base their purchases on price alone just do not get.
For example, I use a Mac in the office where everyone else uses Windows. Every day there is drama with the Windows machines where if it's not the physical machine being unstable, they have problems with system stability, crashes, freezing, BSD, viruses, etc.. So much productivity is lost that people do not factor in. It's irrelevant that they use many common parts, it's the entire package which includes the parts, build-quality, OS, user-experience, product-support, etc. Things the critics never really take into consideration.
My Mac on the other hand, never had anything go wrong with it and I spend all my time using my Mac as the tool it should be as opposed to a Windows machines that is like a patient on life-support.
I bill by the hour and my clients expect results. The money I would lose on lost productivity due to those problems more than surpasses the extra money spent up-front on a Mac.
The Wallmart documentary says it best: "The high cost of low prices".
I'm not against low prices. Even in this economy, it would be ridiculous to waste money that does not need to be spent. But one gets what they pay for.
But those defenders of low prices must have had their head stuck in the sand for so long that their backs are permanently stuck in that position. So sad.
Just wanted to say that I enjoy your comments. I've been reading them in this and other threads here and they're spot on.
I often wonder why Macs and Windows based machines can't just peacefully coexist. To me, they cater to different markets.
I did own a Mac for a short time--a PowerMac Dual G4 (1.3 GHz) running OS X Tiger, and I absolutely loved it. Everything was so intuitive--it seemed like it more closely meshed with my own thought processes and what I wanted out of an OS. And the hardware worked so much more harmoniously with the OS than I had ever experienced with a Windows machine. Unfortunately I had to sell it during a time when my family was strapped for cash.
Now we are intensely devoted to getting out of debt and putting off any unnecessary expenses until that goal is achieved. For the time being, I am using what I refer to as my "custom junker" PC for my computing needs. When the time is right, I will be buying another Mac. Could I buy a cheaper Windows based machine sooner? I could, yes. And I might even be somewhat pleased with it. But it wouldn't be a Mac. Delayed gratification is worth it.
And I'll probably keep my "custom junker" and upgrade it piece by piece for the sheer fun of it, because I'm a computer geek like that.
If you find something to relate to in what I say, I think that's great.
I'm glad to be here. Make too many of the kind of comments I make on Neowin.net, for example, and you get banned. Some people are just way too squeamish when it comes to debate. I've noticed around here, though, that people tend to have a thicker skin. Good to see.
I'm just wondering: has anyone seen an actual window existing without a wall? I mean the "Window" itself is a hollow in the wall, so Window its the part of the wall, which is missing, right? So the slogen "Windows - Life without walls" is actually saying "Life without windows". Or am i getting the message wrong?
(By the way: in the sense of security, "Windows" is an excelent choice of name for that OS.).
I think the intent of the slogan is to imply just the open-ness of "windows" without the containment or boundaries of "walls."
When you take it too literally, it does set itself up for ridicule, but then again, "think different" was not correct when taken literally either..
Just being the devil's advocate here...
Apple must be pleased. Free advertising paid for by MS. Advertising that legitimizes Apple's own message: if you want cutting edge cool, and best quality, pay a bit more for a Mac. If you want adequate for a budget price, stick with Windows. Apple is not trying to steal the entire market; all they're trying to do is skim the cream off the top. Someday, when they've monopolized the high end, they'll start worrying about the low end. But right now, whether it's true or false, the reputation for being expensive is actually to their benefit. Apple has a brilliant business strategy, and now MS is falling all over itself to help out!
Good points.
Had MS just not included those references to Apple, all they'd then have is harmless, mediocre ad that resembles a generic car commercial. Lame and safe. But as it stands . . . they've just implied that their users are . . . losers.
It's not even a clever or creative dig at Apple (in the spirit of the I'm a Mac ads), it's just a derivative "we're cheaper" ad that has gone horribly wrong.
Also... you know things are bad when long time PC guys like Dallas Mavericks owner and tech entrepreneur/blogger Mark Cuban write posts called Once you go Mac within a year or so of shooting this HP TV commercial. Oops! Can't imagine HP liked that too much. As Mark says... "I had gotten to the point where I was embarrassed to be a PC owner. The thought of someone calling me and asking me to go to my computer to find something was paralyzing."
Microsoft has lost all direction/innovation. While they're still a giant they better watchout or they'll be the one with 10% market share. Ballmer specifically is an embarrassment and should be replaced immediately.
If Microsoft portrayed the software and support expenses of generic Windows PCs into its slot machine graphics, the results would be less flattering.
I think the ads are pointless as well, but you can't convince me that someone who needs to run Microsoft Office and Quicken, surf the internet, and check their e-mail is getting a better deal buying a Mac. If someone's got $800 to buy a laptop they aren't going to buy a Mac, period. These people are Windows buyers no matter what. Apple has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in these people. They wouldn't build laptops with "precision aluminum unibody enclosures" if they were. I'm curious why Microsoft thinks they need to make this point.
As far as the "extra expense of software and support" - I call BS. My wife's HP Pavillion is going on three years old and its still going strong, it doesn't raid my wallet at night for extra cash. I dual boot, and I haven't had to spend an extra dime on Vista. Avira is great free antivirus software, Spybot is free, and Office only costs about $70 when you order it with a new Windows machine. 90% of still and video cameras come with free software (no one "needs" iLife, its fun if you like using it). And if people are replacing an old PC, they've probably got a bunch of software already. What the hell is there to spend a lot of money on? $700 will buy you a decent Dell or HP laptop.
As far as the Mac being trouble free? Well, mine have been for 15 years, but the Genius bar always seems to have a wait when I drop by the Apple store, so some people obviously have their issues.
So this ad campaign and all this posturing is ridiculous. If you want a Mac, buy a Mac. If you've got $1000, buy a $700 PC and save yourself a few bucks. If $1000 is a lot of money to you, spend it wisely.
I can go buy 20 capsule box of Clartin 10mg at Walmart for my allergies. It will cost me $20, or I can read the active ingredients on the box of Equate's 30 capsule equivalent for only $8. Both are sold on the same display counter. Both contain the same active ingredients (10mg Loratadine). If I buy the brand name I lose big time. I'm not getting the premium I paid for.
I have had 3 Macs since 1995. The first two were expandable, are still working, and use Mac OS Tiger. Other than system software and memory upgrades, I never used that expansion capability. They still doing functional work.
The third and last Mac is an early April Intel iMac. It has everything I would ever need for up to date computing. But I have not experienced any of the frustrations my PC friends have. Have never had to reinstall the system, have had to find another computer to use because the Mac was being repaired, or needed to use anti-virus protection. I enjoy using my computer and can accomplish many task easily, that my PC friends, only can envy.
I paid the premium price that is Apple, but unlike buying "Clartin," I did get what I paid for. My PC friends have bought twice the amount of hardware than me, and none of it gave them the enjoyment that my Mac has given me.
My friend...pointed out that with the time he had spent trying to get his Vista laptop to work properly, he could have bought a Macbook - and a Mercedes.
I think this is a good point...
For example, I use a Mac in the office where everyone else uses Windows. Every day there is drama with the Windows machines where if it's not the physical machine being unstable, they have problems with system stability, crashes, freezing, BSD, viruses, etc..
[CENTER]
I JUST SPENT THE ENTIRE DAY TODAY
RE-IMAGING MY WINDOWS XP LAPTOP
BECAUSE OF A SOFTWARE PROBLEM.
(9 hours later, I'm still not done)
For the love of God, WHY??? WHY????
I think the ads are pointless as well, but you can't convince me that someone who needs to run Microsoft Office and Quicken, surf the internet, and check their e-mail is getting a better deal buying a Mac. If someone's got $800 to buy a laptop they aren't going to buy a Mac, period. These people are Windows buyers no matter what. Apple has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in these people. They wouldn't build laptops with "precision aluminum unibody enclosures" if they were. I'm curious why Microsoft thinks they need to make this point.
As far as the "extra expense of software and support" - I call BS. My wife's HP Pavillion is going on three years old and its still going strong, it doesn't raid my wallet at night for extra cash. I dual boot, and I haven't had to spend an extra dime on Vista. Avira is great free antivirus software, Spybot is free, and Office only costs about $70 when you order it with a new Windows machine. 90% of still and video cameras come with free software (no one "needs" iLife, its fun if you like using it). And if people are replacing an old PC, they've probably got a bunch of software already. What the hell is there to spend a lot of money on? $700 will buy you a decent Dell or HP laptop.
As far as the Mac being trouble free? Well, mine have been for 15 years, but the Genius bar always seems to have a wait when I drop by the Apple store, so some people obviously have their issues.
So this ad campaign and all this posturing is ridiculous. If you want a Mac, buy a Mac. If you've got $1000, buy a $700 PC and save yourself a few bucks. If $1000 is a lot of money to you, spend it wisely.
You know, I agree with you to a point.. I know there are plenty of computer users who will never do anything more than email, surf the web, import a few photos and open the occasional word doc.. For them, if they are already accustomed to PC's and are on a tight budget, they may be better off buying a $500 to $700 PC.. As Apple has clearly re-iterated time and time again, they are not interested in creating products for that demographic.
The Mac's real value is in the software, for people who want to do more than the above.. The integration between the Mac hardware and OSX, and media creation with the iLife/iWork apps and Apple's mobile devices is where the real value lies for most users.. And of course, to do a lot of the media creation that you can do on a Mac, you will need better specs than you will find on most budget PC's. Hence, even with a 13" screen, the entry level MacBook is a very capable machine and reasonably priced for what you get.
Let's see... this is a web-only campaign, so whatever crappy PC the viewer brings with them they will likely stick with... another brilliant MS move.
No, the "Lauren" commercial is being aired on television already..
I think that they need to look for a new line of business while they still have a war chest.
I JUST SPENT THE ENTIRE DAY TODAY
RE-IMAGING MY WINDOWS XP LAPTOP
BECAUSE OF A SOFTWARE PROBLEM.
(9 hours later, I'm still not done)
For the love of God, WHY??? WHY????