You know, everyone says you need a geek squad however you ever notice that the people that have BSOD are normally those that tweak their rig???
Most people who don't touch their PC are those computeres that are 5 years old and never have problems.
I think the typical Mac user is changing. Gone are the Pro user and remaining elitism users but a new batch of switchers who know the difference between FSB, BIOS, over clocking and with this comes knowledge that "hey I am paying to much" or "this mac update is under powered ( refresh ), and I think Apple will have to address this crowd as they are larger than the 1.5% of users from 4 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I hope for their sakes that anyone that falls for this con and 'saves' money buyng a cheap PC keeps it and doesn't buy anything else. They will need the 'savinngs' to pay the geek to get it going several times before they ditch it and buy another 'cheap' PC ... and so the cycle goes for the average PC user ... over and over and over again.
Of course the trolls out in force in defense of the ads are not really buying into the concept as such, they simply don't want to see an end to the gravy train. Their endless supply of easy money charging hundreds of dollars to get a PC going that froze up due to a lock up in the anti-virus software or an M$ update done twice over etc. makes M$ the Golden Goose to them.
It took me forever to get through your post, it was so poorly constructed.
You deserve Windows. Stick with it. You're getting a bargain-basement brand that treats you the same way.
And yeah, we ALL conveniently worked at Apple.
Actually I did work at Apple. Pasadena CA. Worked there over a year teaching one to one classes. I also make cd sample libraries for a large music distributor.
First off, I use a mac 99% of the time and while this ms have been uncalled for, I was asleep, woke up to a nightmare, read this and replied on my iPhone. Why attack the actress when Jobs has been busy caring less about computer, more about the iPhone. He was mean to attack her.
Regarding working at Apple, not sure what I can tell you to prove it. Ask a question only an apple person could know. Every morning they had daily D where 80% of part time non insured minium wage employees had to listen to a meeting on how to sell.
When the iPhone first came out we called AT&T to get an okay to sell the phone which lasted only a week. One day we sold phones with no limits the next day the policy changed. I also have A MAC GSX account that genius use to track parts, orders etcetera, so I can look up things only apple and IT tech firms can do so ask me. Gsx.apple.com.
Normally she. The posts ramble is due to the small screen on iPhone and can point out several posts made here from others on an iPhone.
While I appreciate apple I hope and look forward to the days the truth comes out about jobs and we see more agressive computers and not all about the iPhone or $500 ram upgrades.
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
For what it's worth I now work with entertainment client who need IT work for msft and apple. I use VPN, ARD, RD for windows servers, terminal to install updates across networks or ARD and unix comands, GSX to check repairs as we also are certified apple repair, and have iphone e 3 sdk, snow leopard, and much more. Working at apple was fun but after a while and going from logic FCP classes to mostly iLife was a bore. Also beta tested for Sony, tascam, Sibelius and have scored feature film trailers at $200 per hour so I could care less what aone here thinks.
I've used macs for over 20 years. Between my wife and myself and work + home, we use 5 macs (two owned at home). And apple is charging too much.
I am reminded of the 80s/90s when they were outrageously arrogant in pricing; anyone remember the 90 day warranties on internal hardware that (as I understand it) had 1-year manufacturer warranties; we pay, apple doesn't? And here we are charging $2500+ for a 17" mac, over $2k for a 15" - oh yes, margins up, market share ... better, but no where near where it could be. There is still software I want for which I would have to run boot camp because it does not work in parallels etc.
No, I am not a windows-lover pretending to be a machead. I use macs all the time. Macs and linux, and windows when that is what is available (e.g. classroom-projector systems).
But come on. $2k for a 15" laptop? How about all the wireless problems? (I'm one of those who had them. I hope one of the recent updates fixed it. It has been a royal pain). How about the ports we don't get? I gather firewire is coming back to the macbook [non-pro] line, but - where else can you spend so much and not get the ports you need? At its best Apple delivers form and function in spades, but form has been taking over lately - witness the loss of firewire at the low end, no non-glare option except at 17", ...
Apple is smart to aim higher and avoid bargain-basement offerings but is shooting themselves in the foot with their high pricing levels. They put too much on iLife and iWork and OS X and cut ports and charge a premium (for me, with iffy wireless for years ... Airport: Scanning ... and scanning...). They need to make adjustment. This isn't smart, as real market share opens tons of doors. If not for the halo effect and the 'gift' of vista, would the mac share have increased at all?
Bottom line, not a good business policy. Particularly in this economy, they need to attract more to the platform. Then they can go to town when the recession eases up.
I think it's easy to forget that Apple is, first and foremost, a business. It's poignant to note that 10 years ago, Microsoft could have bought Apple out 10x over, and still had change to swallow Google. If you look at the current market cap of the two companies, MSFT is barely 60% bigger than Apple, despite owning a virtual monopoly on computer software (OS and Office).
While Microsoft has spent the last 10 years trying to figure out how to get into search, consoles and stamp out Firefox (it's failed at all 3), Apple has targeted the platforms that are ubiquitous to daily living. iPod is the obvious one, but iPhone, iTunes and even ATV, are gunning for a market that once captured, will be hard to wrestle from Apple's grip.
MSFT has good reason to be worried IMO. It will become more and more difficult to justify 7 versions of each OS, with pricing as high as $400, when the world is moving towards light-weight devices that rely on cloud computing power. Windows 7 completely fails to address this issue, as it looks as though there are going to be multiple versions, with the basic versions being crippled so far, that they're barely better than XP. Office is now surely stagnant, with little reason to upgrade now everyone can interchange XML.
The only bright light for MSFT is Silverlight, to which we Mac users are eternally grateful, as we can share in Netflix glory via Firefox or Safari. But Silverlight might actually be the platform that renders the need for Windows obsolete. It could actually help neutral cloud computing solutions to Office, WMP or even gaming, making the platform it's used upon completely irrelevant.
On the costing side, Macs are expensive, but I think we all benefit from there being a high level of entry, because it means that any application, or OS enhancement, is going to be of a higher quality and have better stability. I do actually feel sorry for Windows developers, who are forever having to consider what crapy hardware or software their users may be running.
I've used macs for over 20 years. Between my wife and myself and work + home, we use 5 macs (two owned at home). And apple is charging too much.
I am reminded of the 80s/90s when they were outrageously arrogant in pricing; anyone remember the 90 day warranties on internal hardware that (as I understand it) had 1-year manufacturer warranties; we pay, apple doesn't? And here we are charging $2500+ for a 17" mac, over $2k for a 15" - oh yes, margins up, market share ... better, but no where near where it could be. There is still software I want for which I would have to run boot camp because it does not work in parallels etc.
No, I am not a windows-lover pretending to be a machead. I use macs all the time. Macs and linux, and windows when that is what is available (e.g. classroom-projector systems).
But come on. $2k for a 15" laptop? How about all the wireless problems? (I'm one of those who had them. I hope one of the recent updates fixed it. It has been a royal pain). How about the ports we don't get? I gather firewire is coming back to the macbook [non-pro] line, but - where else can you spend so much and not get the ports you need? At its best Apple delivers form and function in spades, but form has been taking over lately - witness the loss of firewire at the low end, no non-glare option except at 17", ...
Apple is smart to aim higher and avoid bargain-basement offerings but is shooting themselves in the foot with their high pricing levels. They put too much on iLife and iWork and OS X and cut ports and charge a premium (for me, with iffy wireless for years ... Airport: Scanning ... and scanning...). They need to make adjustment. This isn't smart, as real market share opens tons of doors. If not for the halo effect and the 'gift' of vista, would the mac share have increased at all?
Bottom line, not a good business policy. Particularly in this economy, they need to attract more to the platform. Then they can go to town when the recession eases up.
Then don't buy them. All these threads are the same. Mac's are too much. I can buy a better spec'd Windoze PC for 1/2 the amount. Great, knock yourself out. No one is telling you, or forcing you to buy Apple products.
Actually I did work at Apple. Pasadena CA. Worked there over a year teaching one to one classes. I also make cd sample libraries for a large music distributor.
First off, I use a mac 99% of the time and while this ms have been uncalled for, I was asleep, woke up to a nightmare, read this and replied on my iPhone. Why attack the actress when Jobs has been busy caring less about computer, more about the iPhone. He was mean to attack her.
Regarding working at Apple, not sure what I can tell you to prove it. Ask a question only an apple person could know. Every morning they had daily D where 80% of part time non insured minium wage employees had to listen to a meeting on how to sell.
When the iPhone first came out we called AT&T to get an okay to sell the phone which lasted only a week. One day we sold phones with no limits the next day the policy changed. I also have A MAC GSX account that genius use to track parts, orders etcetera, so I can look up things only apple and IT tech firms can do so ask me. Gsx.apple.com.
Normally she. The posts ramble is due to the small screen on iPhone and can point out several posts made here from others on an iPhone.
While I appreciate apple I hope and look forward to the days the truth comes out about jobs and we see more agressive computers and not all about the iPhone or $500 ram upgrades.
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
For what it's worth I now work with entertainment client who need IT work for msft and apple. I use VPN, ARD, RD for windows servers, terminal to install updates across networks or ARD and unix comands, GSX to check repairs as we also are certified apple repair, and have iphone e 3 sdk, snow leopard, and much more. Working at apple was fun but after a while and going from logic FCP classes to mostly iLife was a bore. Also beta tested for Sony, tascam, Sibelius and have scored feature film trailers at $200 per hour so I could care less what aone here thinks.
OK.
Why do use a platform that you obviously dislike? Your whole post is just filled with anti-Apple invective. It seems unlikely that these feelings in you surfaced just recently.
You praise OSx86. So why are you using Apple hardware 99% of the time? By your logic only suckers do that. You can have a far faster PC for far less money, that you build yourself and run OS X. Yet you still choose a Mac 99% of the time.
EFI to "cripple" the Bios. Same question.
Outrageously priced replacement parts. Again, why use Apple hardware when you have total control over a PC?
"Crippled machines that cost $2000 simply due to the need you want graphics. What a joke. I have macs but they are way over priced and use many of the same parts, only the shell is different and before intel, apple lied out their asses about performance."
And you use a machine like this 99% of the time??
And you even have an iPhone!! The absolute height of $$$ for a brand name. This particular item, curiously, goes completely against your beliefs about how much money to spend on hardware. Unless of course you "got it as a gift." Which would lead me to ask whether that same exceedingly generous person is also paying for your data plan. In any case, the iPhone is for suckers, right? Overpriced hardware, when a Windows Mobile phone for a fraction of the cost could do most of what your iPhone can. iPhones are certainly not cheap. At all. No copy/paste (yet), no flash, no multitasking?? So you'd still admit to using an overpriced, feature-crippled phone?
I'll be the first one to apologize and take back the implication that you never worked for Apple, but the rest of your post makes no sense unless you're a masochist, OR . . . unless Windows is even worse. In which case Windows must be truly, truly, garbage-ware. Yet you seem to prefer non-Apple hardware. So you want to run OSx86? If that's the case, why do you "use a Mac 99% of the time"?
Or do you use all those Macs you happen to own ("I have Macs") for work purposes for that entertainment client? If so, then you're using a Mac 99% of the time for work. What do you use as your personal system that 1% of the time? The OSx86 Dell/HP/custom system that you make absolutely no mention of, or the Windows box you make no mention of? You sure have a lot of Macs for someone who clearly dislikes the platform.
You've got a bit of a split-personality issue going on here . . .
hiimamac said "Every morning they had daily D where 80% of part time non insured minium wage employees had to listen to a meeting on how to sell."
shame on you. even though you worked at Apple doesn't give you the right to spread lies.
Apple pays very generously for a retailer, way above minimum wage. you obviously know this, having worked at Apple.
also, any part time job anywhere won't offer insurance (maybe a rare one, but it's not the norm).
the work environment, moral and training is the envy of most retailers or any jobs for the most part
and yes, they are taught to sell ... down. oh, imagine that... asking someone why they need a computer than selling them one that fits their needs, not the most expensive computer.
But the perception exists regardless, and it is prominent.
Yes I know it exists. But my point is that it has existed for years and yet Apple's 'more expensive' Macs have been growing sales at a faster rate then the ever cheaper PCs
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Jobs claimed there were roughly 25 million active users when he first came back. And sometime within the last year they claimed roughly the same number again. So has the Mac really grown?
Yes it has. Remember that in the first few years of Job's return, Mac sales were in the doldrums. It's quite likely that the amount of active Mac users didn't really change that much... while the amount of PC users took off. It's only in the last four years that the Mac has started to reclaim some of it's lost market share.
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Only if you look at quarterly snapshots designed to look rosey and take that as gospel. Over the long run they've mostly only replaced defections and monetized the existing base.
Do I detect a little cynicism? Gartner and IDC provide the figures (that everybody disects every quarter). Who is trying to make it rosey?
3.1 million Macs sold in 2003.
9.9 million Macs sold in 2008.
Either Apple has some new cutomers or the "existing base" appear to be buying three times as many Macs as before.
Good God ... regardless of the quality of these MS adverts (which do, quite clearly, seem fairly clueless), the quality of the front page reporting on this site, particularly where D.E.D. has anything to do with it, is turning it into a joke.
Responding to a ham-fisted dig from Microsoft by spewing cluelessly pro-Apple invective is no way to win an argument, but this is exactly what this site does every time Dilger gets to post under his "Prince McLean" pseudonym.
I don't know how the connection between Roughly Drafted and AppleInsider works, but it has been of no benefit to AI as far as I have seen over the last few years.
Nope, I'm not a troll (and I don't know what an "astroturfer" is) - I'm just a long-time Mac user who has become frustrated with their hardware offerings as of late.
Charles, this is an old thread now and you might not see this, but you just don't know what you're talking about here. An astroturfer (like "mosx" and many others on this thread), are individuals who are paid by Microsoft to post on forums like this when an add comes out so as to seem like they are just regular users (Like Lauren in the commercial), when in fact they are paid shills. There are enough astro-turfers on this thread for me to assume you are one based on your comments which are just totally wrong.
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Originally Posted by CharlesS
(replacement parts) Typically one or two orders of magnitude lower than the price of a new Mac.
The cost of replacement parts on a PC over the life of a PC has been shown many times to be greater than the cost of just buying a Mac in the first place. You can argue all you want, but these are the facts. You are saying here that the parts are ten to a hundred times cheaper, which is just ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by CharlesS
(Macs last longer) This may be true for the high-end expensive models with slots, but the ones that most people can afford have become disposable computers these days. I know that I haven't been able to get many years out of those.
Again, just not true at all. Look up the facts on these issues rather than just spouting off about what you think or what your experience has been.
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Originally Posted by CharlesS
(repair costs built in) You get a one year warranty, and unless it's a high-end, expensive machine, you need to buy AppleCare since just about anything that goes wrong is going to need a motherboard replacement. Heck, on the new iMacs you can't even replace the hard drive without major surgery, and on the Mac mini you can't even upgrade the RAM without voiding the warranty. And these are desktop machines!
Again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The one year warranty covers almost all repairs since with *any* machine the vast majority of things that can go wrong with it go wrong in the first year. I've been repairing computers for years, and everyone knows this. You are seriously and purposely misleading people with this drivel you are spouting here. The Mac mini is the easiest computer to upgrade and you won't void the warranty by putting in memory.
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Originally Posted by CharlesS
(don't need antivirus or repair utilities)You've never had a disk messed up in such a way that you needed DiskWarrior to recover it?
Again, you are out of touch. Diskwarrior hasn't been necessary (and actually doesn't do anything that the system itself cannot do), for many years now.
What I said in my original post still stands. The TCO (total cost of ownership) of a Mac is *lower* than a PC. It always has been and always will be. They last longer, they need less repairs, the majority of the repairs are covered by warranty, and they need no antivirus or maintenance products. They are made of higher quality parts, not the same parts as the average PC and are designed better than the average PC as well.
Those are the facts and nothing you can say will change them.
Microsoft would rather not talk about "Total Cost of Ownership". Not even counting the free software end of things, the cost to keep a PC healthy and running over the course of a few years can really add up.
My dad uses a PC to edit video for his business and keeping it running runs into some bucks. I am a Microsoft certified System engineer and also Comptia A+ and N+ certified so I actually save him a lot of repair costs. To keep the price of PC's down they often use very cheap parts or put in power supplies that can't even handle a PC with all its slots filled up. He gets a new PC about every two years, not because he needs the horsepower but two years is about the limit they last for him before the problems really start coming. It is cheaper for him to get a new one than be without a PC while it is being repaired. Of course that is really 3 PC's and they are used probably 15 hours a day easy.
I recently upgraded my 8 year old eMac with a bigger, faster internal hard drive and a 16x dual layer DVD burner for under 100 bucks. I have faster Macs, like my laptop, but the old eMac still works great.
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
.
Well excuse me, what a totally clueless comment. Just for example; if for your job you need to access one of those bloody web sites a lot that only work with IE then why on Earth would you want to boot into Boot camp? No ability to copy and paste into the Mac environment, no ability to continue working in whatever you are doing in the Mac side ... and no need for speed. Your comment only applies to games enthusiasts. Real world people love having their cake and eat it, i.e Parallels or VMWare while staying in OSX. I am in Windows most of the day on a third screen while working away on the other two in OS X.
Microsoft would rather not talk about "Total Cost of Ownership". Not even counting the free software end of things, the cost to keep a PC healthy and running over the course of a few years can really add up.
My dad uses a PC to edit video for his business and keeping it running runs into some bucks. I am a Microsoft certified System engineer and also Comptia A+ and N+ certified so I actually save him a lot of repair costs. To keep the price of PC's down they often use very cheap parts or put in power supplies that can't even handle a PC with all its slots filled up. He gets a new PC about every two years, not because he needs the horsepower but two years is about the limit they last for him before the problems really start coming. It is cheaper for him to get a new one than be without a PC while it is being repaired. Of course that is really 3 PC's and they are used probably 15 hours a day easy.
I recently upgraded my 8 year old eMac with a bigger, faster internal hard drive and a 16x dual layer DVD burner for under 100 bucks. I have faster Macs, like my laptop, but the old eMac still works great.
Well said.
As pro video person I have to say you really should try to talk your dad into Final Cut Pro on a Mac. he'd love it do pieces I am sure. I used Avid and Media 100 but they seem like distant nightmares now lol.
Charles, this is an old thread now and you might not see this, but you just don't know what you're talking about here.
Do you really think these sorts of "you're a doo-doo head" posts strengthen your argument? Because they actually do quite the reverse.
Quote:
An astroturfer (like "mosx" and many others on this thread), are individuals who are paid by Microsoft to post on forums like this when an add comes out so as to seem like they are just regular users (Like Lauren in the commercial), when in fact they are paid shills. There are enough astro-turfers on this thread for me to assume you are one based on your comments which are just totally wrong.
I'd think that I wouldn't have been exclusively developing Mac software for the last eight years if that were the case. Seriously, don't resort to namecalling to bolster weak arguments - it's transparent, and not convincing. Also, don't make assumptions about people just because they say things you disagree with - it just makes you look foolish.
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The cost of replacement parts on a PC over the life of a PC has been shown many times to be greater than the cost of just buying a Mac in the first place. You can argue all you want, but these are the facts.
Are you serious? You think the average PC user buys $1500 (a typical price of a Mac) worth in parts for their machine?
Oh wait, you said "many times". Taking that conservatively to mean 3-5 times, then you think that a person who buys a $700 Dell is going to then buy $4500 to $7500 worth of parts for it?
Are you nuts?
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You are saying here that the parts are ten to a hundred times cheaper, which is just ridiculous.
If a Mac costs $1500 as a base price, then if a card to add USB 3.0, eSATA, FireWire 3200, or something else that didn't come with the computer ends up costing between $15 and $150, it's one to two orders of magnitude cheaper than a new Mac. Basic math.
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Again, just not true at all. Look up the facts on these issues rather than just spouting off about what you think or what your experience has been.
What's just not true? That most people can't afford $2500 for a Mac with slots? That most of the Macs people can actually buy can't be upgraded and need to be replaced once you outgrow the standard equipment?
And really. I'd like to see your source for that assertion of yours that the average PC user spends several times the price of a Mac on replacement parts.
Quote:
Again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The one year warranty covers almost all repairs since with *any* machine the vast majority of things that can go wrong with it go wrong in the first year. I've been repairing computers for years, and everyone knows this.
In my family alone there have been two iMac G5s, three iBook G4s, one PowerBook G4, and one MacBook Pro which have had the optical drive fail. All but the MBP happened after the first year. The two iMacs also had their power supplies fail after the first year, and one of the iBooks had its AirPort card fail... after the first year. Hard drive failure isn't that uncommon with laptops either, due to the greater amount of wear and tear they tend to incur as a result of being portable. Needless to say, an extended warranty is a pretty sound decision with any laptop.
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You are seriously and purposely misleading people with this drivel you are spouting here.
What? Telling people to get AppleCare with a Mac laptop? That's just sound advice.
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The Mac mini is the easiest computer to upgrade and you won't void the warranty by putting in memory.
What? The Mac mini is the easiest one to upgrade? Easier than the MacBook whose hard drive is right under the battery? Easier than the Mac Pro? The only Mac harder to upgrade than the Mac mini is the Intel-based iMac, and possibly the MacBook Air (since I don't really know much about what's involved in upgrading that particular model). You have to use a putty knife, for God's sake. And it most likely will void the warranty, since Apple lists no customer-installable parts for that machine. The user manual instructs you to take it into an authorized service provider if you want to swap the RAM.
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Again, you are out of touch. Diskwarrior hasn't been necessary (and actually doesn't do anything that the system itself cannot do), for many years now.
You repair Macs, and you don't think there's anything that DiskWarrior can fix that fsck_hfs can't? Um... okay. I can't count the number of times DW has saved me from having to reformat a drive where Apple's disk repair tools were throwing up their hands. DW's not a tool you need to use very often, but it's definitely a good one to have, especially since HFS+ is getting to be quite a creaky file system these days.
I mean, you could also make an argument for antivirus software being unnecessary on Windows as long as you kept your software up to date, employed a good firewall, used a non-IE browser, and were very careful about what you downloaded and what web sites you browsed to. Wouldn't necessarily make it a good idea, though.
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They are made of higher quality parts, not the same parts as the average PC
This isn't true either. Apple uses processors from Intel, hard drives from Seagate, Toshiba, et al., GPUs from NVidia (unfortunately), RAM from Micron, Samsung, etc. It's the same stuff that goes into any other computer. The only really unique thing in there is the EFI firmware - everything else about the Mac experience comes from the software, not the hardware.
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and are designed better than the average PC as well.
In some ways, I'll grant that. Macs are better looking, easily, and they tend to be smaller and lighter. However, they also tend to be less flexible due to the lack of expandability in all but the most expensive models, and sometimes the thin design seems to lead to overheating issues.
I guess your just a troll or an astroturfer, but I have to point out that everything you say here is 100% wrong. Almost any study on the matter ever done comes to the conclusion that Macs have a *lower* TCO.
To be specific, your argument is "full of it" in that:
your upgrade parts also have a cost that needs to be factored in
Macs last typically far longer than a regular PC.
most support and repair costs are built into the price on a Mac
no antivirus or "repair" programs needed to purchase
1] Yes, upgrade parts have an added cost. A whole new Macintosh because your current one isn't upgradable to newer standards, that's a whole new added cost all together!
To add to this argument, most parts that are Macintosh compatible or Mac only are more expensive (minus things like keyboards and the like) especially when you throw in the "Made for Mac" monkier/licensing.
2] Incorrect, Macs use the same internals as a PC, and therefore last the same amount of time. Less so because Apple lets the machines run hot, causing them to burn out quicker than some PCs (My MBP only lasted 2 years because the Graphics chip burnt out litterally. And I had it on a cooler pad, and fans running at full when the machine was on through an SMC hack. PCs have that control downloadable for free.)
3] Repair/Replacement costs for PCs are the same One Year warranty for most products. You can buy the 3 year warranty too if you wish, like Apple Care. Depends where you shop or what you buy. Even some credit cards these days give extra an warranty on your items too, regardless of PC or Mac.
4] There are some very fine AV/AS/FW programs out for PCs that are Free. Check Avira, AVG, Comodo. Mac's built-in firewall is sadly non-configurable and I have yet to find a free version that rivals LittleSnitch. You can compare the fact that Macs have far less Viruses for them, but with the proper tools and saftey precautions, PCs are virus-free too. I will give you the argument that it is harder to hack a Mac. Expect this to change as the platform becomes more popular in enterprise and there is more profitable to hack/violate.
I will give you the fact that you do get iLife, and that you do get OS X. Sadly, these items are not updated and bugs are not fixed quick enough in my opinion. Windows has its own issues too, don't get me wrong (it took them long enough to get Vista working properly).
But basically, the overall TCO, Mac is still higher. Trust me, it is. I spent more on my Macs to keep them running than I ever have on my PCs.
So please, argue away!
(FYI, I was Mac till 1995, then PC, then Mac again in 2003, now PC since 2008. I know I'm not the only one. When Apple gets their act together, I'll consider purchasing their products again.)
There are no PCI slots on all-in-one PC's either. Apple doesn't compete in the traditional desktop market, if they did, the desktops would have PCI slots. Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges my friend. You have a point on the macbooks, although the average person won't add an expresscard in the first place.
On a side note: you can have a BMW and a Chev with the same horsepower, that doesn't make the cars comparable. The same applies to computers. You may not need lightweight and thin laptops made from aluminum not plastic, you may not need ambient light sensors that autmatically adjust screen and keyboard brightness, or a slot-loading drive, or multi-touch, or a magsafe cord, or a hard drive drop sensor, etc. The fact that you don't need/want those things doesn't mean they don't add to the cost.
But they are competing. iMac is the only Apple's desktop offer (short of Mac Pro) thus it is competing with every other desktop platform out there, be it Windows, Linux... whatever. The only problem the way I see it is - for desktop market, iMac is crippled and overpriced.
Apple needs proper mid-range desktop, and desperately. Only problem is, such machine would easily destroy iMac sales. It could easily be made to be much more powerful than iMac, yet cheaper (desktop parts are in general cheaper than notebook parts iMac is utilizing)... so we are unlikely to see one.
Other things... most HP notebooks (others as well much as I know) - even cheap 6710b and likes - come nowadays with so called 3D drive protection (with motion sensor), fingerprint reader, webcam, secondary battery and docking option... Lenovo R500 might not be made of aluminium, but it does have carbon-fibres enforced shell and will survive without visible damage - according to some reviews - a grown up person standing on it. It might not have slot-load optical disk, but it's optical disk can be user-removed and replaced with 2nd battery. Or with BR drive. It does not have multi-touch pad but it has that ugly little joystick some people seem to like much. It does not have illuminated keyboard but it does have handy little LED light possitioned above the screen and directed so that it illuminates keyboard, and, if necessary, a paper you might need to read from while working in dark. And let me quote you - The fact that you don't need/want those things doesn't mean they don't add to the cost; And it is still lower than equally equipped Mac.
Here in NZ, you can get one of them for NZ$1500. 15" MacBook Pro will cost you NZ$3500. That is not minor price difference.
You know, everyone says you need a geek squad however you ever notice that the people that have BSOD are normally those that tweak their rig???
Most people who don't touch their PC are those computeres that are 5 years old and never have problems.
I think the typical Mac user is changing. Gone are the Pro user and remaining elitism users but a new batch of switchers who know the difference between FSB, BIOS, over clocking and with this comes knowledge that "hey I am paying to much" or "this mac update is under powered ( refresh ), and I think Apple will have to address this crowd as they are larger than the 1.5% of users from 4 years ago.
Nice unsubstantiated comment about BSOD. I've got two sister-in-laws who have roughly screwed over their systems for the past 4 years [including new systems to replace older Windows PCs] and I've not charged them to fix them.
More than once I've been accused of breaking the system, until I finally had to knock them down to the level of their expertise, embarrass my brothers and tell them both they married idiots; and to forget about having any more free support because they either lack long term memories, can't take direction or refuse to accept blame for their own actions in ultimately getting malware, viruses and broken peripherals due to both of them being too inept to work on them.
Both of my siblings don't even let them touch their professional tools in their respective trades and finally deferred to my decades of expertise and education, neither ever could touch.
I've moved one to Linux on the Desktop and her next purchase is a Mac for the laptop.
The other one [the one that has been the biggest pain in the rear] is about to purchase her first MacBook Pro 17".
I told her that if she screws this up I'm charging $195/hr to fix it. She has been told by her husband to stop wasting money on PCs and just buy the AppleCare so that she and the two of her brother-in-laws with OS X can enjoy her company once more without being free resources to fix her mistakes.
The average consumer has not changed since Win95 arrived and proclaimed itself the PC friendly version of Mac OS 7.x.
Windows systems have been a POS to trouble shoot since the DOS 5.x days. Device Drivers and third party products have too often been a crap shoot.
All three platforms [Windows, Linux and OS X] have experts who can fix and work without skipping a beat.
That's just reality.
Microsoft has had decades to streamline the Device Driver system, jettison the Registry approach and more. They continue to release a POS that does work well within a small set of preferred third party OEMs, but consistently blows chunks more often than you will ever see within Linux, not to mention OS X.
If you look at Linux Kernel 2.6.29 and the list of mature third party product options you'll see it's grown up immensely.
I'll say that Windows had created a huge third party market for companies to require massive add-on device drivers so you can "take advantage of the device full feature set" [printers, scanners, all-in-one products with fax] while these same devices work in Linux and OS X with no added binary additions. They don't get to take advantage of the HP integrated graphics tools and whatnot, but no one buys these peripherals for such addons. People don't buy an HP Inkjet/Photoprinter because they want to use Photoshop Elements. Hell, they just want to print pictures.
With all their billions, Microsoft doesn't make the solutions under the old acronym KISS: they designed their system to be as vertically tied as possible. That's their business model.
The biggest winner for Microsoft has been Office. That cash cow is running out of time.
Enjoy the games, until OpenGL 3.1 and OpenCL 1.0 enabled games start eroding away the DirectX10x market.
SONY is a huge supporter of OpenGL and OpenCL. They are in a great position to leverage their expertise in Parallel Programming and help their gaming developers out in how to best leverage OpenCL on the Playstation 3.
Nintendo is on-board as well.
OpenCL enabled 10.6 is going to just make the entire OS X experience more enjoyable.
Hell, OpenCL enabled Xorg and GNOME/KDE is going to make Linux, FreeBSD, OpenSolaris and other lesser known platform experience far more enjoyable.
Windows will never embrace OpenCL even though Nvidia, AMD/ATi and Intel are all embracing it.
These subtleties will become quite visible in the world of High Definition.
Comments
Most people who don't touch their PC are those computeres that are 5 years old and never have problems.
I think the typical Mac user is changing. Gone are the Pro user and remaining elitism users but a new batch of switchers who know the difference between FSB, BIOS, over clocking and with this comes knowledge that "hey I am paying to much" or "this mac update is under powered ( refresh ), and I think Apple will have to address this crowd as they are larger than the 1.5% of users from 4 years ago.
I hope for their sakes that anyone that falls for this con and 'saves' money buyng a cheap PC keeps it and doesn't buy anything else. They will need the 'savinngs' to pay the geek to get it going several times before they ditch it and buy another 'cheap' PC ... and so the cycle goes for the average PC user ... over and over and over again.
Of course the trolls out in force in defense of the ads are not really buying into the concept as such, they simply don't want to see an end to the gravy train. Their endless supply of easy money charging hundreds of dollars to get a PC going that froze up due to a lock up in the anti-virus software or an M$ update done twice over etc. makes M$ the Golden Goose to them.
It took me forever to get through your post, it was so poorly constructed.
You deserve Windows. Stick with it. You're getting a bargain-basement brand that treats you the same way.
And yeah, we ALL conveniently worked at Apple.
Actually I did work at Apple. Pasadena CA. Worked there over a year teaching one to one classes. I also make cd sample libraries for a large music distributor.
First off, I use a mac 99% of the time and while this ms have been uncalled for, I was asleep, woke up to a nightmare, read this and replied on my iPhone. Why attack the actress when Jobs has been busy caring less about computer, more about the iPhone. He was mean to attack her.
Regarding working at Apple, not sure what I can tell you to prove it. Ask a question only an apple person could know. Every morning they had daily D where 80% of part time non insured minium wage employees had to listen to a meeting on how to sell.
When the iPhone first came out we called AT&T to get an okay to sell the phone which lasted only a week. One day we sold phones with no limits the next day the policy changed. I also have A MAC GSX account that genius use to track parts, orders etcetera, so I can look up things only apple and IT tech firms can do so ask me. Gsx.apple.com.
Normally she. The posts ramble is due to the small screen on iPhone and can point out several posts made here from others on an iPhone.
While I appreciate apple I hope and look forward to the days the truth comes out about jobs and we see more agressive computers and not all about the iPhone or $500 ram upgrades.
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
For what it's worth I now work with entertainment client who need IT work for msft and apple. I use VPN, ARD, RD for windows servers, terminal to install updates across networks or ARD and unix comands, GSX to check repairs as we also are certified apple repair, and have iphone e 3 sdk, snow leopard, and much more. Working at apple was fun but after a while and going from logic FCP classes to mostly iLife was a bore. Also beta tested for Sony, tascam, Sibelius and have scored feature film trailers at $200 per hour so I could care less what aone here thinks.
I am reminded of the 80s/90s when they were outrageously arrogant in pricing; anyone remember the 90 day warranties on internal hardware that (as I understand it) had 1-year manufacturer warranties; we pay, apple doesn't? And here we are charging $2500+ for a 17" mac, over $2k for a 15" - oh yes, margins up, market share ... better, but no where near where it could be. There is still software I want for which I would have to run boot camp because it does not work in parallels etc.
No, I am not a windows-lover pretending to be a machead. I use macs all the time. Macs and linux, and windows when that is what is available (e.g. classroom-projector systems).
But come on. $2k for a 15" laptop? How about all the wireless problems? (I'm one of those who had them. I hope one of the recent updates fixed it. It has been a royal pain). How about the ports we don't get? I gather firewire is coming back to the macbook [non-pro] line, but - where else can you spend so much and not get the ports you need? At its best Apple delivers form and function in spades, but form has been taking over lately - witness the loss of firewire at the low end, no non-glare option except at 17", ...
Apple is smart to aim higher and avoid bargain-basement offerings but is shooting themselves in the foot with their high pricing levels. They put too much on iLife and iWork and OS X and cut ports and charge a premium (for me, with iffy wireless for years ... Airport: Scanning ... and scanning...). They need to make adjustment. This isn't smart, as real market share opens tons of doors. If not for the halo effect and the 'gift' of vista, would the mac share have increased at all?
Bottom line, not a good business policy. Particularly in this economy, they need to attract more to the platform. Then they can go to town when the recession eases up.
While Microsoft has spent the last 10 years trying to figure out how to get into search, consoles and stamp out Firefox (it's failed at all 3), Apple has targeted the platforms that are ubiquitous to daily living. iPod is the obvious one, but iPhone, iTunes and even ATV, are gunning for a market that once captured, will be hard to wrestle from Apple's grip.
MSFT has good reason to be worried IMO. It will become more and more difficult to justify 7 versions of each OS, with pricing as high as $400, when the world is moving towards light-weight devices that rely on cloud computing power. Windows 7 completely fails to address this issue, as it looks as though there are going to be multiple versions, with the basic versions being crippled so far, that they're barely better than XP. Office is now surely stagnant, with little reason to upgrade now everyone can interchange XML.
The only bright light for MSFT is Silverlight, to which we Mac users are eternally grateful, as we can share in Netflix glory via Firefox or Safari. But Silverlight might actually be the platform that renders the need for Windows obsolete. It could actually help neutral cloud computing solutions to Office, WMP or even gaming, making the platform it's used upon completely irrelevant.
On the costing side, Macs are expensive, but I think we all benefit from there being a high level of entry, because it means that any application, or OS enhancement, is going to be of a higher quality and have better stability. I do actually feel sorry for Windows developers, who are forever having to consider what crapy hardware or software their users may be running.
I've used macs for over 20 years. Between my wife and myself and work + home, we use 5 macs (two owned at home). And apple is charging too much.
I am reminded of the 80s/90s when they were outrageously arrogant in pricing; anyone remember the 90 day warranties on internal hardware that (as I understand it) had 1-year manufacturer warranties; we pay, apple doesn't? And here we are charging $2500+ for a 17" mac, over $2k for a 15" - oh yes, margins up, market share ... better, but no where near where it could be. There is still software I want for which I would have to run boot camp because it does not work in parallels etc.
No, I am not a windows-lover pretending to be a machead. I use macs all the time. Macs and linux, and windows when that is what is available (e.g. classroom-projector systems).
But come on. $2k for a 15" laptop? How about all the wireless problems? (I'm one of those who had them. I hope one of the recent updates fixed it. It has been a royal pain). How about the ports we don't get? I gather firewire is coming back to the macbook [non-pro] line, but - where else can you spend so much and not get the ports you need? At its best Apple delivers form and function in spades, but form has been taking over lately - witness the loss of firewire at the low end, no non-glare option except at 17", ...
Apple is smart to aim higher and avoid bargain-basement offerings but is shooting themselves in the foot with their high pricing levels. They put too much on iLife and iWork and OS X and cut ports and charge a premium (for me, with iffy wireless for years ... Airport: Scanning ... and scanning...). They need to make adjustment. This isn't smart, as real market share opens tons of doors. If not for the halo effect and the 'gift' of vista, would the mac share have increased at all?
Bottom line, not a good business policy. Particularly in this economy, they need to attract more to the platform. Then they can go to town when the recession eases up.
Then don't buy them. All these threads are the same. Mac's are too much. I can buy a better spec'd Windoze PC for 1/2 the amount. Great, knock yourself out. No one is telling you, or forcing you to buy Apple products.
Actually I did work at Apple. Pasadena CA. Worked there over a year teaching one to one classes. I also make cd sample libraries for a large music distributor.
First off, I use a mac 99% of the time and while this ms have been uncalled for, I was asleep, woke up to a nightmare, read this and replied on my iPhone. Why attack the actress when Jobs has been busy caring less about computer, more about the iPhone. He was mean to attack her.
Regarding working at Apple, not sure what I can tell you to prove it. Ask a question only an apple person could know. Every morning they had daily D where 80% of part time non insured minium wage employees had to listen to a meeting on how to sell.
When the iPhone first came out we called AT&T to get an okay to sell the phone which lasted only a week. One day we sold phones with no limits the next day the policy changed. I also have A MAC GSX account that genius use to track parts, orders etcetera, so I can look up things only apple and IT tech firms can do so ask me. Gsx.apple.com.
Normally she. The posts ramble is due to the small screen on iPhone and can point out several posts made here from others on an iPhone.
While I appreciate apple I hope and look forward to the days the truth comes out about jobs and we see more agressive computers and not all about the iPhone or $500 ram upgrades.
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
For what it's worth I now work with entertainment client who need IT work for msft and apple. I use VPN, ARD, RD for windows servers, terminal to install updates across networks or ARD and unix comands, GSX to check repairs as we also are certified apple repair, and have iphone e 3 sdk, snow leopard, and much more. Working at apple was fun but after a while and going from logic FCP classes to mostly iLife was a bore. Also beta tested for Sony, tascam, Sibelius and have scored feature film trailers at $200 per hour so I could care less what aone here thinks.
OK.
Why do use a platform that you obviously dislike? Your whole post is just filled with anti-Apple invective. It seems unlikely that these feelings in you surfaced just recently.
You praise OSx86. So why are you using Apple hardware 99% of the time? By your logic only suckers do that. You can have a far faster PC for far less money, that you build yourself and run OS X. Yet you still choose a Mac 99% of the time.
EFI to "cripple" the Bios. Same question.
Outrageously priced replacement parts. Again, why use Apple hardware when you have total control over a PC?
"Crippled machines that cost $2000 simply due to the need you want graphics. What a joke. I have macs but they are way over priced and use many of the same parts, only the shell is different and before intel, apple lied out their asses about performance."
And you use a machine like this 99% of the time??
And you even have an iPhone!! The absolute height of $$$ for a brand name. This particular item, curiously, goes completely against your beliefs about how much money to spend on hardware. Unless of course you "got it as a gift." Which would lead me to ask whether that same exceedingly generous person is also paying for your data plan. In any case, the iPhone is for suckers, right? Overpriced hardware, when a Windows Mobile phone for a fraction of the cost could do most of what your iPhone can. iPhones are certainly not cheap. At all. No copy/paste (yet), no flash, no multitasking?? So you'd still admit to using an overpriced, feature-crippled phone?
I'll be the first one to apologize and take back the implication that you never worked for Apple, but the rest of your post makes no sense unless you're a masochist, OR . . . unless Windows is even worse. In which case Windows must be truly, truly, garbage-ware. Yet you seem to prefer non-Apple hardware. So you want to run OSx86? If that's the case, why do you "use a Mac 99% of the time"?
Or do you use all those Macs you happen to own ("I have Macs") for work purposes for that entertainment client? If so, then you're using a Mac 99% of the time for work. What do you use as your personal system that 1% of the time? The OSx86 Dell/HP/custom system that you make absolutely no mention of, or the Windows box you make no mention of? You sure have a lot of Macs for someone who clearly dislikes the platform.
You've got a bit of a split-personality issue going on here . . .
......Why attack the actress when Jobs has been busy caring less about computer, more about the iPhone. He was mean to attack her. .....
....Normally she. The posts ramble is due to the small screen on iPhone and can point out several posts made here from others on an iPhone.....
...While I appreciate apple I hope and look forward to the days the truth comes out about jobs ...
..... and have scored feature film trailers at $200 per hour so I could care less what aone here thinks.
Look Hi, you may be a very nice guy, and you are obviously extremely talented but you really are beginning to sound like a bit of a dick.
shame on you. even though you worked at Apple doesn't give you the right to spread lies.
Apple pays very generously for a retailer, way above minimum wage. you obviously know this, having worked at Apple.
also, any part time job anywhere won't offer insurance (maybe a rare one, but it's not the norm).
the work environment, moral and training is the envy of most retailers or any jobs for the most part
and yes, they are taught to sell ... down. oh, imagine that... asking someone why they need a computer than selling them one that fits their needs, not the most expensive computer.
But the perception exists regardless, and it is prominent.
Yes I know it exists. But my point is that it has existed for years and yet Apple's 'more expensive' Macs have been growing sales at a faster rate then the ever cheaper PCs
Jobs claimed there were roughly 25 million active users when he first came back. And sometime within the last year they claimed roughly the same number again. So has the Mac really grown?
Yes it has. Remember that in the first few years of Job's return, Mac sales were in the doldrums. It's quite likely that the amount of active Mac users didn't really change that much... while the amount of PC users took off. It's only in the last four years that the Mac has started to reclaim some of it's lost market share.
Only if you look at quarterly snapshots designed to look rosey and take that as gospel. Over the long run they've mostly only replaced defections and monetized the existing base.
Do I detect a little cynicism? Gartner and IDC provide the figures (that everybody disects every quarter). Who is trying to make it rosey?
3.1 million Macs sold in 2003.
9.9 million Macs sold in 2008.
Either Apple has some new cutomers or the "existing base" appear to be buying three times as many Macs as before.
Responding to a ham-fisted dig from Microsoft by spewing cluelessly pro-Apple invective is no way to win an argument, but this is exactly what this site does every time Dilger gets to post under his "Prince McLean" pseudonym.
I don't know how the connection between Roughly Drafted and AppleInsider works, but it has been of no benefit to AI as far as I have seen over the last few years.
Cheers
Jim
Nope, I'm not a troll (and I don't know what an "astroturfer" is) - I'm just a long-time Mac user who has become frustrated with their hardware offerings as of late.
Charles, this is an old thread now and you might not see this, but you just don't know what you're talking about here. An astroturfer (like "mosx" and many others on this thread), are individuals who are paid by Microsoft to post on forums like this when an add comes out so as to seem like they are just regular users (Like Lauren in the commercial), when in fact they are paid shills. There are enough astro-turfers on this thread for me to assume you are one based on your comments which are just totally wrong.
(replacement parts) Typically one or two orders of magnitude lower than the price of a new Mac.
The cost of replacement parts on a PC over the life of a PC has been shown many times to be greater than the cost of just buying a Mac in the first place. You can argue all you want, but these are the facts. You are saying here that the parts are ten to a hundred times cheaper, which is just ridiculous.
(Macs last longer) This may be true for the high-end expensive models with slots, but the ones that most people can afford have become disposable computers these days. I know that I haven't been able to get many years out of those.
Again, just not true at all. Look up the facts on these issues rather than just spouting off about what you think or what your experience has been.
(repair costs built in) You get a one year warranty, and unless it's a high-end, expensive machine, you need to buy AppleCare since just about anything that goes wrong is going to need a motherboard replacement. Heck, on the new iMacs you can't even replace the hard drive without major surgery, and on the Mac mini you can't even upgrade the RAM without voiding the warranty. And these are desktop machines!
Again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The one year warranty covers almost all repairs since with *any* machine the vast majority of things that can go wrong with it go wrong in the first year. I've been repairing computers for years, and everyone knows this. You are seriously and purposely misleading people with this drivel you are spouting here. The Mac mini is the easiest computer to upgrade and you won't void the warranty by putting in memory.
(don't need antivirus or repair utilities)You've never had a disk messed up in such a way that you needed DiskWarrior to recover it?
Again, you are out of touch. Diskwarrior hasn't been necessary (and actually doesn't do anything that the system itself cannot do), for many years now.
What I said in my original post still stands. The TCO (total cost of ownership) of a Mac is *lower* than a PC. It always has been and always will be. They last longer, they need less repairs, the majority of the repairs are covered by warranty, and they need no antivirus or maintenance products. They are made of higher quality parts, not the same parts as the average PC and are designed better than the average PC as well.
Those are the facts and nothing you can say will change them.
My dad uses a PC to edit video for his business and keeping it running runs into some bucks. I am a Microsoft certified System engineer and also Comptia A+ and N+ certified so I actually save him a lot of repair costs. To keep the price of PC's down they often use very cheap parts or put in power supplies that can't even handle a PC with all its slots filled up. He gets a new PC about every two years, not because he needs the horsepower but two years is about the limit they last for him before the problems really start coming. It is cheaper for him to get a new one than be without a PC while it is being repaired. Of course that is really 3 PC's and they are used probably 15 hours a day easy.
I recently upgraded my 8 year old eMac with a bigger, faster internal hard drive and a 16x dual layer DVD burner for under 100 bucks. I have faster Macs, like my laptop, but the old eMac still works great.
amen to that!
so true!
For those need windows why do I keep reading VM ware?! Makes no sense. If you have to have windows and will use it more than 5 minutes, install bootcamp as the system will run much faster.
.
Well excuse me, what a totally clueless comment. Just for example; if for your job you need to access one of those bloody web sites a lot that only work with IE then why on Earth would you want to boot into Boot camp? No ability to copy and paste into the Mac environment, no ability to continue working in whatever you are doing in the Mac side ... and no need for speed. Your comment only applies to games enthusiasts. Real world people love having their cake and eat it, i.e Parallels or VMWare while staying in OSX. I am in Windows most of the day on a third screen while working away on the other two in OS X.
Microsoft would rather not talk about "Total Cost of Ownership". Not even counting the free software end of things, the cost to keep a PC healthy and running over the course of a few years can really add up.
My dad uses a PC to edit video for his business and keeping it running runs into some bucks. I am a Microsoft certified System engineer and also Comptia A+ and N+ certified so I actually save him a lot of repair costs. To keep the price of PC's down they often use very cheap parts or put in power supplies that can't even handle a PC with all its slots filled up. He gets a new PC about every two years, not because he needs the horsepower but two years is about the limit they last for him before the problems really start coming. It is cheaper for him to get a new one than be without a PC while it is being repaired. Of course that is really 3 PC's and they are used probably 15 hours a day easy.
I recently upgraded my 8 year old eMac with a bigger, faster internal hard drive and a 16x dual layer DVD burner for under 100 bucks. I have faster Macs, like my laptop, but the old eMac still works great.
Well said.
As pro video person I have to say you really should try to talk your dad into Final Cut Pro on a Mac. he'd love it do pieces I am sure. I used Avid and Media 100 but they seem like distant nightmares now lol.
Charles, this is an old thread now and you might not see this, but you just don't know what you're talking about here.
Do you really think these sorts of "you're a doo-doo head" posts strengthen your argument? Because they actually do quite the reverse.
An astroturfer (like "mosx" and many others on this thread), are individuals who are paid by Microsoft to post on forums like this when an add comes out so as to seem like they are just regular users (Like Lauren in the commercial), when in fact they are paid shills. There are enough astro-turfers on this thread for me to assume you are one based on your comments which are just totally wrong.
I'd think that I wouldn't have been exclusively developing Mac software for the last eight years if that were the case. Seriously, don't resort to namecalling to bolster weak arguments - it's transparent, and not convincing. Also, don't make assumptions about people just because they say things you disagree with - it just makes you look foolish.
The cost of replacement parts on a PC over the life of a PC has been shown many times to be greater than the cost of just buying a Mac in the first place. You can argue all you want, but these are the facts.
Are you serious? You think the average PC user buys $1500 (a typical price of a Mac) worth in parts for their machine?
Oh wait, you said "many times". Taking that conservatively to mean 3-5 times, then you think that a person who buys a $700 Dell is going to then buy $4500 to $7500 worth of parts for it?
Are you nuts?
You are saying here that the parts are ten to a hundred times cheaper, which is just ridiculous.
If a Mac costs $1500 as a base price, then if a card to add USB 3.0, eSATA, FireWire 3200, or something else that didn't come with the computer ends up costing between $15 and $150, it's one to two orders of magnitude cheaper than a new Mac. Basic math.
Again, just not true at all. Look up the facts on these issues rather than just spouting off about what you think or what your experience has been.
What's just not true? That most people can't afford $2500 for a Mac with slots? That most of the Macs people can actually buy can't be upgraded and need to be replaced once you outgrow the standard equipment?
And really. I'd like to see your source for that assertion of yours that the average PC user spends several times the price of a Mac on replacement parts.
Again, you don't know what you're talking about here. The one year warranty covers almost all repairs since with *any* machine the vast majority of things that can go wrong with it go wrong in the first year. I've been repairing computers for years, and everyone knows this.
In my family alone there have been two iMac G5s, three iBook G4s, one PowerBook G4, and one MacBook Pro which have had the optical drive fail. All but the MBP happened after the first year. The two iMacs also had their power supplies fail after the first year, and one of the iBooks had its AirPort card fail... after the first year. Hard drive failure isn't that uncommon with laptops either, due to the greater amount of wear and tear they tend to incur as a result of being portable. Needless to say, an extended warranty is a pretty sound decision with any laptop.
You are seriously and purposely misleading people with this drivel you are spouting here.
What? Telling people to get AppleCare with a Mac laptop? That's just sound advice.
The Mac mini is the easiest computer to upgrade and you won't void the warranty by putting in memory.
What? The Mac mini is the easiest one to upgrade? Easier than the MacBook whose hard drive is right under the battery? Easier than the Mac Pro? The only Mac harder to upgrade than the Mac mini is the Intel-based iMac, and possibly the MacBook Air (since I don't really know much about what's involved in upgrading that particular model). You have to use a putty knife, for God's sake. And it most likely will void the warranty, since Apple lists no customer-installable parts for that machine. The user manual instructs you to take it into an authorized service provider if you want to swap the RAM.
Again, you are out of touch. Diskwarrior hasn't been necessary (and actually doesn't do anything that the system itself cannot do), for many years now.
You repair Macs, and you don't think there's anything that DiskWarrior can fix that fsck_hfs can't? Um... okay. I can't count the number of times DW has saved me from having to reformat a drive where Apple's disk repair tools were throwing up their hands. DW's not a tool you need to use very often, but it's definitely a good one to have, especially since HFS+ is getting to be quite a creaky file system these days.
I mean, you could also make an argument for antivirus software being unnecessary on Windows as long as you kept your software up to date, employed a good firewall, used a non-IE browser, and were very careful about what you downloaded and what web sites you browsed to. Wouldn't necessarily make it a good idea, though.
They are made of higher quality parts, not the same parts as the average PC
This isn't true either. Apple uses processors from Intel, hard drives from Seagate, Toshiba, et al., GPUs from NVidia (unfortunately), RAM from Micron, Samsung, etc. It's the same stuff that goes into any other computer. The only really unique thing in there is the EFI firmware - everything else about the Mac experience comes from the software, not the hardware.
and are designed better than the average PC as well.
In some ways, I'll grant that. Macs are better looking, easily, and they tend to be smaller and lighter. However, they also tend to be less flexible due to the lack of expandability in all but the most expensive models, and sometimes the thin design seems to lead to overheating issues.
I guess your just a troll or an astroturfer, but I have to point out that everything you say here is 100% wrong. Almost any study on the matter ever done comes to the conclusion that Macs have a *lower* TCO.
To be specific, your argument is "full of it" in that:
1] Yes, upgrade parts have an added cost. A whole new Macintosh because your current one isn't upgradable to newer standards, that's a whole new added cost all together!
To add to this argument, most parts that are Macintosh compatible or Mac only are more expensive (minus things like keyboards and the like) especially when you throw in the "Made for Mac" monkier/licensing.
2] Incorrect, Macs use the same internals as a PC, and therefore last the same amount of time. Less so because Apple lets the machines run hot, causing them to burn out quicker than some PCs (My MBP only lasted 2 years because the Graphics chip burnt out litterally. And I had it on a cooler pad, and fans running at full when the machine was on through an SMC hack. PCs have that control downloadable for free.)
3] Repair/Replacement costs for PCs are the same One Year warranty for most products. You can buy the 3 year warranty too if you wish, like Apple Care. Depends where you shop or what you buy. Even some credit cards these days give extra an warranty on your items too, regardless of PC or Mac.
4] There are some very fine AV/AS/FW programs out for PCs that are Free. Check Avira, AVG, Comodo. Mac's built-in firewall is sadly non-configurable and I have yet to find a free version that rivals LittleSnitch. You can compare the fact that Macs have far less Viruses for them, but with the proper tools and saftey precautions, PCs are virus-free too. I will give you the argument that it is harder to hack a Mac. Expect this to change as the platform becomes more popular in enterprise and there is more profitable to hack/violate.
I will give you the fact that you do get iLife, and that you do get OS X. Sadly, these items are not updated and bugs are not fixed quick enough in my opinion. Windows has its own issues too, don't get me wrong (it took them long enough to get Vista working properly).
But basically, the overall TCO, Mac is still higher. Trust me, it is. I spent more on my Macs to keep them running than I ever have on my PCs.
So please, argue away!
(FYI, I was Mac till 1995, then PC, then Mac again in 2003, now PC since 2008. I know I'm not the only one. When Apple gets their act together, I'll consider purchasing their products again.)
There are no PCI slots on all-in-one PC's either. Apple doesn't compete in the traditional desktop market, if they did, the desktops would have PCI slots. Compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges my friend. You have a point on the macbooks, although the average person won't add an expresscard in the first place.
On a side note: you can have a BMW and a Chev with the same horsepower, that doesn't make the cars comparable. The same applies to computers. You may not need lightweight and thin laptops made from aluminum not plastic, you may not need ambient light sensors that autmatically adjust screen and keyboard brightness, or a slot-loading drive, or multi-touch, or a magsafe cord, or a hard drive drop sensor, etc. The fact that you don't need/want those things doesn't mean they don't add to the cost.
But they are competing. iMac is the only Apple's desktop offer (short of Mac Pro) thus it is competing with every other desktop platform out there, be it Windows, Linux... whatever. The only problem the way I see it is - for desktop market, iMac is crippled and overpriced.
Apple needs proper mid-range desktop, and desperately. Only problem is, such machine would easily destroy iMac sales. It could easily be made to be much more powerful than iMac, yet cheaper (desktop parts are in general cheaper than notebook parts iMac is utilizing)... so we are unlikely to see one.
Other things... most HP notebooks (others as well much as I know) - even cheap 6710b and likes - come nowadays with so called 3D drive protection (with motion sensor), fingerprint reader, webcam, secondary battery and docking option... Lenovo R500 might not be made of aluminium, but it does have carbon-fibres enforced shell and will survive without visible damage - according to some reviews - a grown up person standing on it. It might not have slot-load optical disk, but it's optical disk can be user-removed and replaced with 2nd battery. Or with BR drive. It does not have multi-touch pad but it has that ugly little joystick some people seem to like much. It does not have illuminated keyboard but it does have handy little LED light possitioned above the screen and directed so that it illuminates keyboard, and, if necessary, a paper you might need to read from while working in dark. And let me quote you - The fact that you don't need/want those things doesn't mean they don't add to the cost; And it is still lower than equally equipped Mac.
Here in NZ, you can get one of them for NZ$1500. 15" MacBook Pro will cost you NZ$3500. That is not minor price difference.
You know, everyone says you need a geek squad however you ever notice that the people that have BSOD are normally those that tweak their rig???
Most people who don't touch their PC are those computeres that are 5 years old and never have problems.
I think the typical Mac user is changing. Gone are the Pro user and remaining elitism users but a new batch of switchers who know the difference between FSB, BIOS, over clocking and with this comes knowledge that "hey I am paying to much" or "this mac update is under powered ( refresh ), and I think Apple will have to address this crowd as they are larger than the 1.5% of users from 4 years ago.
Nice unsubstantiated comment about BSOD. I've got two sister-in-laws who have roughly screwed over their systems for the past 4 years [including new systems to replace older Windows PCs] and I've not charged them to fix them.
More than once I've been accused of breaking the system, until I finally had to knock them down to the level of their expertise, embarrass my brothers and tell them both they married idiots; and to forget about having any more free support because they either lack long term memories, can't take direction or refuse to accept blame for their own actions in ultimately getting malware, viruses and broken peripherals due to both of them being too inept to work on them.
Both of my siblings don't even let them touch their professional tools in their respective trades and finally deferred to my decades of expertise and education, neither ever could touch.
I've moved one to Linux on the Desktop and her next purchase is a Mac for the laptop.
The other one [the one that has been the biggest pain in the rear] is about to purchase her first MacBook Pro 17".
I told her that if she screws this up I'm charging $195/hr to fix it. She has been told by her husband to stop wasting money on PCs and just buy the AppleCare so that she and the two of her brother-in-laws with OS X can enjoy her company once more without being free resources to fix her mistakes.
The average consumer has not changed since Win95 arrived and proclaimed itself the PC friendly version of Mac OS 7.x.
Windows systems have been a POS to trouble shoot since the DOS 5.x days. Device Drivers and third party products have too often been a crap shoot.
All three platforms [Windows, Linux and OS X] have experts who can fix and work without skipping a beat.
That's just reality.
Microsoft has had decades to streamline the Device Driver system, jettison the Registry approach and more. They continue to release a POS that does work well within a small set of preferred third party OEMs, but consistently blows chunks more often than you will ever see within Linux, not to mention OS X.
If you look at Linux Kernel 2.6.29 and the list of mature third party product options you'll see it's grown up immensely.
I'll say that Windows had created a huge third party market for companies to require massive add-on device drivers so you can "take advantage of the device full feature set" [printers, scanners, all-in-one products with fax] while these same devices work in Linux and OS X with no added binary additions. They don't get to take advantage of the HP integrated graphics tools and whatnot, but no one buys these peripherals for such addons. People don't buy an HP Inkjet/Photoprinter because they want to use Photoshop Elements. Hell, they just want to print pictures.
With all their billions, Microsoft doesn't make the solutions under the old acronym KISS: they designed their system to be as vertically tied as possible. That's their business model.
The biggest winner for Microsoft has been Office. That cash cow is running out of time.
Enjoy the games, until OpenGL 3.1 and OpenCL 1.0 enabled games start eroding away the DirectX10x market.
SONY is a huge supporter of OpenGL and OpenCL. They are in a great position to leverage their expertise in Parallel Programming and help their gaming developers out in how to best leverage OpenCL on the Playstation 3.
Nintendo is on-board as well.
OpenCL enabled 10.6 is going to just make the entire OS X experience more enjoyable.
Hell, OpenCL enabled Xorg and GNOME/KDE is going to make Linux, FreeBSD, OpenSolaris and other lesser known platform experience far more enjoyable.
Windows will never embrace OpenCL even though Nvidia, AMD/ATi and Intel are all embracing it.
These subtleties will become quite visible in the world of High Definition.
/shakes fist in a futile gesture.
Signed the old forgotten penny slot way back in the corner.