Agreed the complaints about no upgrade pricing stem from the ASSumption that the upgrade pricing should be cheaper. As you point out this doesn't take into consideration the actual value of the apps. iLife and iWork are certainly worth more than $79 if one is actually going to use a majority of the applications in the suite.
Also many can't see the forest through the trees. If Apple ships out full versions as the upgrade it doesn't obsolete your prior purchase. I sold my iWork 08 for %30 of its value and this would have been more difficult had I just had an upgrade disc for iWork 09.
You guys are screwing up what I've said.
I'm ONLY talking about an upgrade price for iWork FROM Appleworks. The Appleworks upgrade was LESS than the price for iWork.
It's like when a magazine goes out of business. They don't just leave you in the lurch, they give you a subscription to a similar magazine, or a choice between several.
If Apple had just left Appleworks, and didn't come out with something to supersede it, that would have been different, of course. But iWork was the successor. Apple could have given $20 off the price for anyone with version 6. That would have matched the last upgrade price I paid for Appleworks.
They abandoned Appleworks, the best selling software they ever had, for it's time. They could have improved it, but decided to go in an entirely different direction. It took years before they came close to providing all that it had, though individual programs in iworks were better.
They never gave those of us who owned it upgrade pricing either!
How far do you want to go back? MacPaint?
They abandoned major parts of the OS, well after third parties has given them major support. This was well before OS X that Im talking about.
iDVD hasn't see any improvements for a couple of years, because Apple doesn't want us making DVD's anymore, they want us to put all our stuff in Mobile ME instead.
There are other major areas in which they've abandoned software.
Heck, AOL was an Apple division before they sold it and the name was turned into AOL.
I'm sure Logic 9 will be out before the Final Cut Pro updates.
The beta was sent out a month ago, and from what I've seen this could be the most significant update of Logic yet. With the i7/i5 iMacs and i7 mobiles chips coming real soon there is absolutely no need for DSP Pro Tools HD anymore.
From what I've seen from the beta, Logic 9 has superior audio editing features compared to Pro Tools and the new virtual instruments and plug-ins are just breathtaking.
In fact I think 3rd party plug-in manufactures such as IK Multimedia, Waves, Synthogy, Native Instruments etc. are going to s*** themselves when they see Logic 9, because the integrated effects, virtual instruments (new sample library and sampler) are actually better than the ones you have to pay for.
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
This doesn't make sense. Audio Units are effects available to everyone so regardless of what Apple delivers in Logic Studio there's room for product from IK, NI and more. Mainstage doesn't compete with Ableton insomuch as it facilites and environment for using Logic files in a live setting. Yes Ableton does that and so so so much more it's hard to really make that comparison.
This doesn't make sense. Audio Units are effects available to everyone so regardless of what Apple delivers in Logic Studio there's room for product from IK, NI and more. Mainstage doesn't compete with Ableton insomuch as it facilites and environment for using Logic files in a live setting. Yes Ableton does that and so so so much more it's hard to really make that comparison.
I was responding to:
Quote:
In fact I think 3rd party plug-in manufactures such as IK Multimedia, Waves, Synthogy, Native Instruments etc. are going to s*** themselves when they see Logic 9, because the integrated effects, virtual instruments (new sample library and sampler) are actually better than the ones you have to pay for.
So, why will people buy things from IK, NI, Synthogy, etc if Apple is just going to bundle freebies that are supposedly "actually better" with Logic? They don't even have to be better - just "almost as good" to knock them out of the market. This is the kind of BS I'd expect from Microsoft.
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market. This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
I actually took that statement with a grain of salt.
I can see Apple developing some nice sounding instruments and effects but I just don't see them putting IK, Sonalksis and others to shame.
In fact I can't remember a time when Apple delivered an app so stunning in performance that the competition was significantly behind.
Apple's makes the software look better than 3rd party for the most part but I've learned to temper my enthusiasm to a point when I read about how xxx unreleased product is going to blow all comers away.
I'd personally like to see the market for increasing peoples awareness of music and most importantly creating music grow so that there's significant room for everyone to deliver product.
I wouldn't be surprised if Appleworks had been more popular than any other of Apple's PAID for software.
It would be good to remember that AW was cross platform, which most of Apple's newer software is not, which limits their popularity.
AW was the standard software around the country, and in a number of other countries, in the K-12 school systems. That's no longer so with iWork. Apple made a conscious choice to give that leadership up.
I can tell you that here, in the NYC public school system, it caused more than a bit of a problem. It's one of the main reasons why Office Student/Teacher Edition became so popular. Apple chose to sell that in its stores, and even to recommend it to school systems instead of their own product. We had that happen here in meetings in the Office of Technology Assessment where I'm an advisor (upaid!).
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
ALL software companies are forced to do that.
Yes, forced!
Because their customers demand new features. They demand that features be built in that they normally have to pay extra for. The companies must advance their products.
This is unique to Apple?
The plug-in companies learn to live with this, and they EXPECT it. They just have to keep on their toes, and offer ever better products to match.
These companies are happy that the main programs have plug-in frameworks to begin with, or there would be NO business for them, as they wouldn't exist.
Name one company with a major product that has plug-in frameworks that hasn't incorporated third party functionality into the program. I can't think of a single one.
So, why will people buy things from IK, NI, Synthogy, etc if Apple is just going to bundle freebies that are supposedly "actually better" with Logic? They don't even have to be better - just "almost as good" to knock them out of the market. This is the kind of BS I'd expect from Microsoft.
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market. This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
Logic Studio is hardly free (although the student pricing is pretty reasonable).
Don't forget it was Apple's refusal to compete with third party developers that caused a lot of stagnation in the System 7 era.
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market.
So you made a so-so audio product for OS X and Apple has to never make something similar because it "screws" you?
If you want users to prefer your products to Apple's then make something *significantly better*. Else, if Apple's own included for free software is better (or even good enough), I will use that.
Do you really propose that Apple shoud NOT DEVELOP new functionality in this area, so you can continue to sell something that could be included for free? Really? Why?
And what about the end user. Having this functionality cheaper or free actually benefits me as an end user --and I am Apple's customer, not you.
Quote:
This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
Then you better stop making easily reproducable products with marginal value.
I don't see NI or Waves complaining.
Oh, and "JambaLaya retails for $189.00 USD.". What the duck? Half the price of a DAW?
You are comitting marketing hara kiri by not listing your app on these sites. No one will know about your product unless you can effectively market it and the aforementioned sites along with a PrMac account will go a long way toward getting people to check out your product.
You are comitting marketing hara kiri by not listing your app on these sites. No one will know about your product unless you can effectively market it and the aforementioned sites along with a PrMac account will go a long way toward getting people to check out your product.
I've heard the name of the product, but I don't know anyone who has ever used it. I use Pro Tools, and no matter how good Apple's product is, they wont supplant it, though I have seen one or two think Apple will. Fat chance!
Just like thinking Aperture would push Photoshop out. Even Lightroom has several times the sales. Of course, Adobe was working on Lightroom before Apple ever started work on Aperture.
But, I just don't get what these guys complain about. If their program isn't that great, it's their own fault.
It's like a Broadway show. They spend millions to start. Hire expensive people, take the show on the road, and do rewrites. Finally, it comes to NYC and opens on Broadway, the critics hate it, and it closes the next day. Why?
Because the people working on it are too close to it. They don't see how bad it is, because it's their baby.
We see that with Tv shows, movies, music, etc.
Same thing with programs. How can anything they wrote, and labored over, be bad?
Making a good product isn't even half the battle. The rest is marketing and delivery. The guy that makes Numerology is a bonafied genius but how many people outside of the audio realm have heard of him or his product?
The internet gives you the ability to market your product without going bankrupt but the sweat equity is in generating the buzz.
Hey look at it this way if you hit 100 messageboards and complain about Apple and link to your product that's potentially hundreds of new people checking your site out. In the end negative attention trails positive attention only slightly where marketing is concerned.
I haven't been in AI for a while, but I came here hoping for some whispers about A3. In the absence of any sources, I'll predict that A3 will have a lot more tools for PS-style manipulation.
Some of those tools are there already, but they're difficult to access.* So it seems like a safe assumption that when Apple is ready to boast about Aperture's image manipulation prowess, it will make those features readily accessible. Moreover, I'll guess that Apple won't be going head-to-head with Photoshop so much as the specialist photo-editing packages.
-----------------
*I'm referring to Images > Edit with > Dodge & Burn, which isn't mentioned in the User Manual.
I haven't been in AI for a while, but I came here hoping for some whispers about A3. In the absence of any sources, I'll predict that A3 will have a lot more tools for PS-style manipulation.
Some of those tools are there already, but they're difficult to access.* So it seems like a safe assumption that when Apple is ready to boast about Aperture's image manipulation prowess, it will make those features readily accessible. Moreover, I'll guess that Apple won't be going head-to-head with Photoshop so much as the specialist photo-editing packages.
-----------------
*I'm referring to Images > Edit with > Dodge & Burn, which isn't mentioned in the User Manual.
Both Aperture and Lightroom are designed for photographers who want RAW conversion, basic editing, as well as easier cataloging of their files. Photoshop is aimed at a different group, and has many third party workflow systems for it that neither Aperture or Lightroom will get.
Comments
Agreed the complaints about no upgrade pricing stem from the ASSumption that the upgrade pricing should be cheaper. As you point out this doesn't take into consideration the actual value of the apps. iLife and iWork are certainly worth more than $79 if one is actually going to use a majority of the applications in the suite.
Also many can't see the forest through the trees. If Apple ships out full versions as the upgrade it doesn't obsolete your prior purchase. I sold my iWork 08 for %30 of its value and this would have been more difficult had I just had an upgrade disc for iWork 09.
You guys are screwing up what I've said.
I'm ONLY talking about an upgrade price for iWork FROM Appleworks. The Appleworks upgrade was LESS than the price for iWork.
It's like when a magazine goes out of business. They don't just leave you in the lurch, they give you a subscription to a similar magazine, or a choice between several.
If Apple had just left Appleworks, and didn't come out with something to supersede it, that would have been different, of course. But iWork was the successor. Apple could have given $20 off the price for anyone with version 6. That would have matched the last upgrade price I paid for Appleworks.
That seems fair to me.
After that, what Apple has been doing is fine.
They abandoned Appleworks, the best selling software they ever had, for it's time. They could have improved it, but decided to go in an entirely different direction. It took years before they came close to providing all that it had, though individual programs in iworks were better.
They never gave those of us who owned it upgrade pricing either!
How far do you want to go back? MacPaint?
They abandoned major parts of the OS, well after third parties has given them major support. This was well before OS X that Im talking about.
iDVD hasn't see any improvements for a couple of years, because Apple doesn't want us making DVD's anymore, they want us to put all our stuff in Mobile ME instead.
There are other major areas in which they've abandoned software.
Heck, AOL was an Apple division before they sold it and the name was turned into AOL.
I fixed that for you.
I'm sure Logic 9 will be out before the Final Cut Pro updates.
The beta was sent out a month ago, and from what I've seen this could be the most significant update of Logic yet. With the i7/i5 iMacs and i7 mobiles chips coming real soon there is absolutely no need for DSP Pro Tools HD anymore.
From what I've seen from the beta, Logic 9 has superior audio editing features compared to Pro Tools and the new virtual instruments and plug-ins are just breathtaking.
In fact I think 3rd party plug-in manufactures such as IK Multimedia, Waves, Synthogy, Native Instruments etc. are going to s*** themselves when they see Logic 9, because the integrated effects, virtual instruments (new sample library and sampler) are actually better than the ones you have to pay for.
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
This doesn't make sense. Audio Units are effects available to everyone so regardless of what Apple delivers in Logic Studio there's room for product from IK, NI and more. Mainstage doesn't compete with Ableton insomuch as it facilites and environment for using Logic files in a live setting. Yes Ableton does that and so so so much more it's hard to really make that comparison.
This doesn't make sense. Audio Units are effects available to everyone so regardless of what Apple delivers in Logic Studio there's room for product from IK, NI and more. Mainstage doesn't compete with Ableton insomuch as it facilites and environment for using Logic files in a live setting. Yes Ableton does that and so so so much more it's hard to really make that comparison.
I was responding to:
In fact I think 3rd party plug-in manufactures such as IK Multimedia, Waves, Synthogy, Native Instruments etc. are going to s*** themselves when they see Logic 9, because the integrated effects, virtual instruments (new sample library and sampler) are actually better than the ones you have to pay for.
So, why will people buy things from IK, NI, Synthogy, etc if Apple is just going to bundle freebies that are supposedly "actually better" with Logic? They don't even have to be better - just "almost as good" to knock them out of the market. This is the kind of BS I'd expect from Microsoft.
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market. This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
I can see Apple developing some nice sounding instruments and effects but I just don't see them putting IK, Sonalksis and others to shame.
In fact I can't remember a time when Apple delivered an app so stunning in performance that the competition was significantly behind.
Apple's makes the software look better than 3rd party for the most part but I've learned to temper my enthusiasm to a point when I read about how xxx unreleased product is going to blow all comers away.
I'd personally like to see the market for increasing peoples awareness of music and most importantly creating music grow so that there's significant room for everyone to deliver product.
I fixed that for you.
I wouldn't be surprised if Appleworks had been more popular than any other of Apple's PAID for software.
It would be good to remember that AW was cross platform, which most of Apple's newer software is not, which limits their popularity.
AW was the standard software around the country, and in a number of other countries, in the K-12 school systems. That's no longer so with iWork. Apple made a conscious choice to give that leadership up.
I can tell you that here, in the NYC public school system, it caused more than a bit of a problem. It's one of the main reasons why Office Student/Teacher Edition became so popular. Apple chose to sell that in its stores, and even to recommend it to school systems instead of their own product. We had that happen here in meetings in the Office of Technology Assessment where I'm an advisor (upaid!).
Great. So Apple competes with their developers once again and plays 800 lb gorilla and trashes yet another market. This, in my view, makes them jerks. The whole point of audio units being discrete products that smaller developers can build and make a nice little business from is right out the window. If I were IK Multimedia, NI, or the others I'd be looking to port to VSTs on the PC and never look back. Never mind bringing out Mainstage to compete with the developers of live oriented performance hosts like Ableton, RAX, and Jambalaya.
Really, I don't know why I bother developing for that platform - Apple invariably screws their developers in the end. For me, this would make it the third time
ALL software companies are forced to do that.
Yes, forced!
Because their customers demand new features. They demand that features be built in that they normally have to pay extra for. The companies must advance their products.
This is unique to Apple?
The plug-in companies learn to live with this, and they EXPECT it. They just have to keep on their toes, and offer ever better products to match.
These companies are happy that the main programs have plug-in frameworks to begin with, or there would be NO business for them, as they wouldn't exist.
Name one company with a major product that has plug-in frameworks that hasn't incorporated third party functionality into the program. I can't think of a single one.
I was responding to:
So, why will people buy things from IK, NI, Synthogy, etc if Apple is just going to bundle freebies that are supposedly "actually better" with Logic? They don't even have to be better - just "almost as good" to knock them out of the market. This is the kind of BS I'd expect from Microsoft.
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market. This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
Logic Studio is hardly free (although the student pricing is pretty reasonable).
Don't forget it was Apple's refusal to compete with third party developers that caused a lot of stagnation in the System 7 era.
I was responding to:
Mainstage totally *does* compete with RAX and Jambalaya (I wrote Jambalaya - I think Mainstage is garbage and unstable and I wrote Jambalaya before it even came out - but Mainstage is free and its hard to market against 'free' - if you disagree - you go out and sell Jambalaya to live musicians that already have Mainstage and tell me how that goes - I'll give you half the money for every sale).
Sorry, Apple is totally being the uncool 800 lb gorilla in the audio production market.
So you made a so-so audio product for OS X and Apple has to never make something similar because it "screws" you?
If you want users to prefer your products to Apple's then make something *significantly better*. Else, if Apple's own included for free software is better (or even good enough), I will use that.
Do you really propose that Apple shoud NOT DEVELOP new functionality in this area, so you can continue to sell something that could be included for free? Really? Why?
And what about the end user. Having this functionality cheaper or free actually benefits me as an end user --and I am Apple's customer, not you.
This will be the third product I've built for their platform that they've decided to either obsolete or release a free version of.
Then you better stop making easily reproducable products with marginal value.
I don't see NI or Waves complaining.
Oh, and "JambaLaya retails for $189.00 USD.". What the duck? Half the price of a DAW?
Are you crazy man?
Jambalaya
NOT listed at
Apple.com/downloads
Macupdate.com
Versiontracker.com
Iusethis.com
You are comitting marketing hara kiri by not listing your app on these sites. No one will know about your product unless you can effectively market it and the aforementioned sites along with a PrMac account will go a long way toward getting people to check out your product.
Here's a major problem.
Jambalaya
NOT listed at
Apple.com/downloads
Macupdate.com
Versiontracker.com
Iusethis.com
You are comitting marketing hara kiri by not listing your app on these sites. No one will know about your product unless you can effectively market it and the aforementioned sites along with a PrMac account will go a long way toward getting people to check out your product.
I've heard the name of the product, but I don't know anyone who has ever used it. I use Pro Tools, and no matter how good Apple's product is, they wont supplant it, though I have seen one or two think Apple will. Fat chance!
Just like thinking Aperture would push Photoshop out.
But, I just don't get what these guys complain about. If their program isn't that great, it's their own fault.
It's like a Broadway show. They spend millions to start. Hire expensive people, take the show on the road, and do rewrites. Finally, it comes to NYC and opens on Broadway, the critics hate it, and it closes the next day. Why?
Because the people working on it are too close to it. They don't see how bad it is, because it's their baby.
We see that with Tv shows, movies, music, etc.
Same thing with programs. How can anything they wrote, and labored over, be bad?
They don't get it.
Somehow, the good ones survive, and prosper.
The internet gives you the ability to market your product without going bankrupt but the sweat equity is in generating the buzz.
Hey look at it this way if you hit 100 messageboards and complain about Apple and link to your product that's potentially hundreds of new people checking your site out. In the end negative attention trails positive attention only slightly where marketing is concerned.
I haven't been in AI for a while, but I came here hoping for some whispers about A3. In the absence of any sources, I'll predict that A3 will have a lot more tools for PS-style manipulation.
Some of those tools are there already, but they're difficult to access.* So it seems like a safe assumption that when Apple is ready to boast about Aperture's image manipulation prowess, it will make those features readily accessible. Moreover, I'll guess that Apple won't be going head-to-head with Photoshop so much as the specialist photo-editing packages.
-----------------
*I'm referring to Images > Edit with > Dodge & Burn, which isn't mentioned in the User Manual.
EDIT: Hello Google! A quick search found a much better discussion of Aperture 3 than my ramblings: see http://blogs.oreilly.com/aperture/20...want-in-a.html
Well I'm itching for an Aperture upgrade.
I haven't been in AI for a while, but I came here hoping for some whispers about A3. In the absence of any sources, I'll predict that A3 will have a lot more tools for PS-style manipulation.
Some of those tools are there already, but they're difficult to access.* So it seems like a safe assumption that when Apple is ready to boast about Aperture's image manipulation prowess, it will make those features readily accessible. Moreover, I'll guess that Apple won't be going head-to-head with Photoshop so much as the specialist photo-editing packages.
-----------------
*I'm referring to Images > Edit with > Dodge & Burn, which isn't mentioned in the User Manual.
EDIT: Hello Google! A quick search found a much better discussion of Aperture 3 than my ramblings: see http://blogs.oreilly.com/aperture/20...want-in-a.html
I pretty much agree with that.
Both Aperture and Lightroom are designed for photographers who want RAW conversion, basic editing, as well as easier cataloging of their files. Photoshop is aimed at a different group, and has many third party workflow systems for it that neither Aperture or Lightroom will get.