I really don't see the novelty in this patent application. Has this patent even been approved? I'd like more details from the AI source, is this patent pending or what stage in the patent process this is.
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
EDIT: Answered my own question, it's patent application 20090110872 with a filing date October 31, 2007 at the USPTO.
I really don't see the novelty in this patent application. Has this patent even been approved? I'd like more details from the AI source, is this patent pending or what stage in the patent process this is.
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
EDIT: Answered my own question, it's patent application 20090110872 with a filing date October 31, 2007 at the USPTO.
I guess this is another example of USPTO blindly awarding patents for stuff that has plenty of "prior art".
I guess this is another example of USPTO blindly awarding patents for stuff that has plenty of "prior art".
What I've learned over the years is that all you need to do is change one component, out of many, to get a patent. So Apple will never corner the high modulus FRP computer market, by any means.
Since the article mentioned cooling the resin below its Tg (edit: and it says it is a thermoplastic resin) , it sounds more like a thermoplastic resin to me. Still tough to recycle with all those carbon fibers in it.
Not sure how patentable this is, given the fact that the outer layers have a name, scrim layers, it seems as if this would be a standard process by now. Maybe the patent is just for computer cases or for protection against patent trolls.
Exactly! This isn't even patentable. They're patenting a process that has existed in the CF thermoplastic community for at least the last decade. Scrim layer is commonly used to create a paintable surface -- standard. Even if it is a patent for computer cases there is still prior art: http://www.americanmatrixcorp.com This company has been making CF computer cases for about the last 8 years.
Does the USPTO buckle under pressure from large companies like Apple and just let anything they file sail thru? IMHO someone should challenge this patent and speak up for all the small companies who have been using this process within their community for years.
Ahh, carbon fiber composites are not impact or scratch resistant at all. In fact, one of the dangers of carbon fiber bikes is sudden failure from impact (it basically breaks like glass).
Must not have been a thermoplastic process. IIRC many CF bikes just use fabric & epoxy in a bladder or vacuum mold. Specialized made some CF&kevlar handlebars close to 15yrs ago that were bombproof -- just incredibly expensive. Even after the first break from applying pressure to the center of the bar (supporting the ends on blocks) it wasn't even close to a catastrophic failure for the bar, it held together and still sustained 75% of the pressure from the first break before any further damage occurred.
Some claim it can be ground up and reused for other purposes, but I've yet to see a practical one.
Bushings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8CoreWhore
So a form of plastic it is, but carbon fiber is best - but they don't want it to look like typical CF and they don't want to paint it -thus the scrim layer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
Scrim layers are used for multiple reasons. You can use one that is textured to make it easier to paint -- thermoplastic carbonfiber isn't as glamorous as clear epoxied CF that is nicely polished. Another reason is to use a scrim of mylar as 8CoreWhore mentioned. This kind of scrim helps fill in the voids in the woven fabric. Many times you'll alternate mylar and CF layers. Apply heat and pressure and you get a nice solid, and strong, part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
You bring up a good point. Aluminum is a very good heat conductor, composites using no metal are not.
It would be harder to cool the internals of a laptop made from this material, as it is using any other resin or plastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Pffft!
I'm holding out for nano-tubes.
Mesophase pitch carbon fiber. Check it out. The stuff is pretty amazing, but incredibly difficult to work with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8CoreWhore
A google search of CF Vs Alum regarding rigidity - I see lots of references saying CF is more rigid. Of course, there are all sorts of considerations - but think common uses like bikes, tripods, etc - if CF wasn't rigid, brake pads on CF forks would drag, etc. http://tinyurl.com/cgw2jm I'm betting on a "tablet" back.
If you look at the diagram in apples patent you see that they are gaining rigidity by alternating the direction of the unidirectional layers.
I don't understand, I feel like Apple is stepping off their own turf and entering a new wold of invention.
I never would have imagined Apple would patent a material. It's just not their thing. Through history, computer companies have used the materials at their disposal. It's unheard of that such a company makes a material of their own.
What scares me is that this idea, this simple addition of aesthetics atop strength, will not be available to the public for however many years. This begs the question, will Apple begin licensing this material if there is a public demand for it? Will they manufacture it themselves and sell it? Is this a new revenue stream?
Apple has been creating its own doors. Literally cutting a hole in a bare wall, and installing a fully-functional door with hinges. With their recent acquisitions of chip guru's, they will be making even more technology that is available to nobody else but themselves.
All I have to say is this is an exciting time in Apple's history, and the history of computers as well.
I don't understand, I feel like Apple is stepping off their own turf and entering a new wold of invention.
I never would have imagined Apple would patent a material. It's just not their thing. Through history, computer companies have used the materials at their disposal. It's unheard of that such a company makes a material of their own.
What scares me is that this idea, this simple addition of aesthetics atop strength, will not be available to the public for however many years. This begs the question, will Apple begin licensing this material if there is a public demand for it? Will they manufacture it themselves and sell it? Is this a new revenue stream?
Apple has been creating its own doors. Literally cutting a hole in a bare wall, and installing a fully-functional door with hinges. With their recent acquisitions of chip guru's, they will be making even more technology that is available to nobody else but themselves.
All I have to say is this is an exciting time in Apple's history, and the history of computers as well.
Don't worry. Such patents are not meant to prevent the competition from making CF computers. It's far too easy to work around such a patent. This is what is sometimes called a "defensive patent". Its purpose is so that once they do get around to using this in a real product, nobody comes out of the woodwork claiming that this is stepping on their patent.
It doesn't really prevent anyone from claiming it, but having their process patented probably means that no court will award the claimant a temporary injunction and stop Apple's selling them.
Incredibly expensive stuff to make a computer case out of.
That's pretty standard technique. It's used for everything including plywood.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
That's interesting. I'm familiar with much of this but haven't seen bearings stated as having been made from reclaimed material, which doesn't mean that some aren't. I just wonder how they get the fibers to align. The edges of carbon fibers are very scratchy.
Quote:
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
It is indeed. In small quantities, I suppose it might convey an advantage there without adding too much to the cost.
Quote:
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
I haven't read the patent, but as it appears to be a process patent, that's different.
They wouldn't be patenting the idea of a scrim layer, or cross banding, but the way to to accomplish the manufacturing of it so that it would lead to higher quality materials, less expensive manufacturing costs, simpler production, or whatever.
That would be an allowable, and fair reason, to get a patent.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
Recycled carbon fiber is a (comparatively) short chain fiber. I wonder if they intend to use recycled carbon fiber as a part of their "green" image campaign?
Recycled carbon fiber is a (comparatively) short chain fiber. I wonder if they intend to use recycled carbon fiber as a part of their "green" image campaign?
They would have to chemically, and physically, separate out the epoxy, or polyester resins, which constitute anywhere from about 25 to 75% of the composite.
Comments
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
EDIT: Answered my own question, it's patent application 20090110872 with a filing date October 31, 2007 at the USPTO.
No, no, no, no, no! I like the aluminum! Don't go back to anything that looks plasticky!
Sorry but I want a tough book, rugged phone, you name it. Carbon Fiber Composites aren't the "plastic" you think it to be.
I really don't see the novelty in this patent application. Has this patent even been approved? I'd like more details from the AI source, is this patent pending or what stage in the patent process this is.
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
EDIT: Answered my own question, it's patent application 20090110872 with a filing date October 31, 2007 at the USPTO.
I guess this is another example of USPTO blindly awarding patents for stuff that has plenty of "prior art".
I guess this is another example of USPTO blindly awarding patents for stuff that has plenty of "prior art".
What I've learned over the years is that all you need to do is change one component, out of many, to get a patent. So Apple will never corner the high modulus FRP computer market, by any means.
It's basically a factorial problem.
Since the article mentioned cooling the resin below its Tg (edit: and it says it is a thermoplastic resin) , it sounds more like a thermoplastic resin to me. Still tough to recycle with all those carbon fibers in it.
Not sure how patentable this is, given the fact that the outer layers have a name, scrim layers, it seems as if this would be a standard process by now. Maybe the patent is just for computer cases or for protection against patent trolls.
Exactly! This isn't even patentable. They're patenting a process that has existed in the CF thermoplastic community for at least the last decade. Scrim layer is commonly used to create a paintable surface -- standard. Even if it is a patent for computer cases there is still prior art: http://www.americanmatrixcorp.com This company has been making CF computer cases for about the last 8 years.
Does the USPTO buckle under pressure from large companies like Apple and just let anything they file sail thru? IMHO someone should challenge this patent and speak up for all the small companies who have been using this process within their community for years.
I'm guessing this is probably more about design/asthetics and jumping ahead of the competition that loosing 100 grams.
I'm pretty sure Lenovo, Sony, Asus... others maybe... already use carbon-fibre in some of their notebook cases.
So it doesn't really look like jumping ahead competition.
I'm kind of baffled. While carbons are considered high-tech, aluminium is perceived as, well, more noble, luxury material.
Ahh, carbon fiber composites are not impact or scratch resistant at all. In fact, one of the dangers of carbon fiber bikes is sudden failure from impact (it basically breaks like glass).
Must not have been a thermoplastic process. IIRC many CF bikes just use fabric & epoxy in a bladder or vacuum mold. Specialized made some CF&kevlar handlebars close to 15yrs ago that were bombproof -- just incredibly expensive. Even after the first break from applying pressure to the center of the bar (supporting the ends on blocks) it wasn't even close to a catastrophic failure for the bar, it held together and still sustained 75% of the pressure from the first break before any further damage occurred.
Some claim it can be ground up and reused for other purposes, but I've yet to see a practical one.
Bushings.
So a form of plastic it is, but carbon fiber is best - but they don't want it to look like typical CF and they don't want to paint it -thus the scrim layer.
Mylar scrim is already used extensively in the high modulus sailcloth industry.
Scrim layers are used for multiple reasons. You can use one that is textured to make it easier to paint -- thermoplastic carbonfiber isn't as glamorous as clear epoxied CF that is nicely polished. Another reason is to use a scrim of mylar as 8CoreWhore mentioned. This kind of scrim helps fill in the voids in the woven fabric. Many times you'll alternate mylar and CF layers. Apply heat and pressure and you get a nice solid, and strong, part.
You bring up a good point. Aluminum is a very good heat conductor, composites using no metal are not.
It would be harder to cool the internals of a laptop made from this material, as it is using any other resin or plastic.
Pffft!
I'm holding out for nano-tubes.
Mesophase pitch carbon fiber. Check it out. The stuff is pretty amazing, but incredibly difficult to work with.
A google search of CF Vs Alum regarding rigidity - I see lots of references saying CF is more rigid. Of course, there are all sorts of considerations - but think common uses like bikes, tripods, etc - if CF wasn't rigid, brake pads on CF forks would drag, etc. http://tinyurl.com/cgw2jm I'm betting on a "tablet" back.
If you look at the diagram in apples patent you see that they are gaining rigidity by alternating the direction of the unidirectional layers.
I never would have imagined Apple would patent a material. It's just not their thing. Through history, computer companies have used the materials at their disposal. It's unheard of that such a company makes a material of their own.
What scares me is that this idea, this simple addition of aesthetics atop strength, will not be available to the public for however many years. This begs the question, will Apple begin licensing this material if there is a public demand for it? Will they manufacture it themselves and sell it? Is this a new revenue stream?
Apple has been creating its own doors. Literally cutting a hole in a bare wall, and installing a fully-functional door with hinges. With their recent acquisitions of chip guru's, they will be making even more technology that is available to nobody else but themselves.
All I have to say is this is an exciting time in Apple's history, and the history of computers as well.
Bushings.
Have you a reference for that?
Mesophase pitch carbon fiber. Check it out. The stuff is pretty amazing, but incredibly difficult to work with.
Incredibly expensive stuff to make a computer case out of.
If you look at the diagram in apples patent you see that they are gaining rigidity by alternating the direction of the unidirectional layers.
That's pretty standard technique. It's used for everything including plywood.
What's with Apple's obsession with anorexic products?
Trying to give the public, which licks thin products, what they want.
Remember the RAZR?
Thin LCD and Plasma Tvs, etc?
This is what people want.
Trying to give the public, which licks thin products, what they want.
Remember the RAZR?
Thin LCD and Plasma Tvs, etc?
This is what people want.
I agree... people want sexy computers. Porn sells.
I don't understand, I feel like Apple is stepping off their own turf and entering a new wold of invention.
I never would have imagined Apple would patent a material. It's just not their thing. Through history, computer companies have used the materials at their disposal. It's unheard of that such a company makes a material of their own.
What scares me is that this idea, this simple addition of aesthetics atop strength, will not be available to the public for however many years. This begs the question, will Apple begin licensing this material if there is a public demand for it? Will they manufacture it themselves and sell it? Is this a new revenue stream?
Apple has been creating its own doors. Literally cutting a hole in a bare wall, and installing a fully-functional door with hinges. With their recent acquisitions of chip guru's, they will be making even more technology that is available to nobody else but themselves.
All I have to say is this is an exciting time in Apple's history, and the history of computers as well.
Don't worry. Such patents are not meant to prevent the competition from making CF computers. It's far too easy to work around such a patent. This is what is sometimes called a "defensive patent". Its purpose is so that once they do get around to using this in a real product, nobody comes out of the woodwork claiming that this is stepping on their patent.
It doesn't really prevent anyone from claiming it, but having their process patented probably means that no court will award the claimant a temporary injunction and stop Apple's selling them.
I agree... people want sexy computers. Porn sells.
Sorry about that.
Have you a reference for that?
Incredibly expensive stuff to make a computer case out of.
That's pretty standard technique. It's used for everything including plywood.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
That's interesting. I'm familiar with much of this but haven't seen bearings stated as having been made from reclaimed material, which doesn't mean that some aren't. I just wonder how they get the fibers to align. The edges of carbon fibers are very scratchy.
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
It is indeed. In small quantities, I suppose it might convey an advantage there without adding too much to the cost.
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
I haven't read the patent, but as it appears to be a process patent, that's different.
They wouldn't be patenting the idea of a scrim layer, or cross banding, but the way to to accomplish the manufacturing of it so that it would lead to higher quality materials, less expensive manufacturing costs, simpler production, or whatever.
That would be an allowable, and fair reason, to get a patent.
I shouldn't have said ground up, but chopped up. Chopped fiber is used to make small parts like bushings and thermoplastics can be re-worked, so technically its possible. Its like wood press-board but using thermoplastic carbon. The process time would increase a good bit to melt all the existing plastic and gradually apply more pressure to reduce voids.
Pitch-carbon is expensive stuff, but would be good for heat transfer. Use it dissipate heat away from chips to another heatsink like copper tubes.
Yeah, standard technique, which is why the patent surprises me.
Recycled carbon fiber is a (comparatively) short chain fiber. I wonder if they intend to use recycled carbon fiber as a part of their "green" image campaign?
Recycled carbon fiber is a (comparatively) short chain fiber. I wonder if they intend to use recycled carbon fiber as a part of their "green" image campaign?
They would have to chemically, and physically, separate out the epoxy, or polyester resins, which constitute anywhere from about 25 to 75% of the composite.