Apple has at least two significant advantages over most of its rivals in the mobile (phone and media player) space.
1. Apple has had the best supply-chain management in the US for at least the last 2 years (see AMR surveys). This is Cook's forte. Since it looks like Apple is willing to accept a smaller margin (30% instead of 32-35%) and have established preferred status with flash suppliers through their investment and market share, they have the wherewithal to have better hardware at any given price, or to charge less for the same hardware. This is enough to stay ahead (or even defeat) most competitors, however, since MS has shown a willingness to take losses, and subsidize via its monopoly profits on Windows/Office, MS can offset any supply-chain pricing disadvantage it faces.
2. Apple has been a leading innovator in ways that really matter to the user experience, including software, GUIs, and industrial design, by investing in R&D and having vision (going to where the puck is going to be). By doing so, it has been able to set the terms of the competition (or battlefield), forcing everyone to fight on its terms and radically changing those terms whenever a competitor approaches. This is the value of Steve Jobs. In the mobile space, they upended everyone with multi-touch, and access to the real Internet. Then while their competitors was chasing that, they switched on the SDK and the App Store in year 2. iPhone 3.0 software now points to dock-connected hardware accessories and local wifi-based collaboration/gaming apps. And rumors point to something more with the user experience for video. The competitors are certainly arriving on the multi-touch hardware front (but likely at a higher sales price or at a lower margin/profit point, and assuming no patent infringement), but still far away on the App Store.
So there's still room to have a somewhat conservative hardware refresh for iPhone/iPod touch this year(i.e., selling on momentum but really losing ground). But if this year's refresh is conservative, then no later than the next update in 2010, Apple will have to have changed the game on its competitors again. (And I think they will in ways we're only barely imagining right now.)
(BTW, a third advantage is the retail Apple Stores, and a fourth advantage is marketing insight.)
Ok this thread is getting completely out of hand with hearsay and rumors and what ifs.
First off - APPS. Since this is based on Windows CE, the countless Windows Mobile apps that already exist could conceivably run fine on it. If you don't know about them, then don't even bother commenting on this. Otherwise, anyone who actually DOES know about WM apps knows that there are a ton of free apps that do exactly the same thing that paid apps in the app store do.
Secondly - Stop comparing this thing to the 2009 Touch FFS!!! Rather than sit there and talk about what you think the Touch might have, just focus on what Microsoft has announced the Zune will have. Bringing up rumors and trying to pass them off as nonexistent facts speaks wonders to someone's intelligence.
Finally - XBox integration. 30 Million sold and people here still think this won't be an eye catching feature of the Zune. Amazing.
What intrigues me the most with this Zune is the HD video output. With a wifi connection and Orb, I'll be able to stream my hd movies to my friends TV's, not to mention if I simply transfer them to the internal memory of this thing. I've got a fairly large library of movies, and even if they aren't 720p, the zune's native widescreen video output means I won't have to use standard rca cables for a 4:3 display that I crop.
Bottom line, this is a very decent product, and YES, it WILL give the ipod touch a run for it's money. Anyone who thinks it won't is living in a dream world, a fantasy, a place of myth and legend where Apple gives a crap about you defending them.
It might be new but it's still just 3 generations back from what iPods do. Apple is and will always be the a mere cheap copy of an iPod. Get the real thing, get an iPod Touch.
It's funny when Apple fans say things like this, then they go and defend Apple in even worse ways than the "fanboys" they were just talking about.
MS can't make a decent OS? Funny you say that, considering Windows had SMP/multi-processor support well before Apple did. Windows also had pre-emptive multi-tasking half a decade before Apple did. Plus, for years now, Windows has been taking full advantage of the GPU for video playback. Snow Leopard *might* finally do this, well over 10 years after Microsoft started laying the ground work for such features.
You missed the point. We could debate all day about the differences, MS wins here and Apple wins there however overall Apple has a better mix of features that I want in computers etc. That's all. I don't really like how MS "packages" their products because I'm not part of their demographic. I don't want a cheap iphone clone with some improved features and lacking others. I simply want an Iphone. As a package Apple products simply fit my needs better.
Ok this thread is getting completely out of hand with hearsay and rumors and what ifs.
First off - APPS. Since this is based on Windows CE, the countless Windows Mobile apps that already exist could conceivably run fine on it. If you don't know about them, then don't even bother commenting on this. Otherwise, anyone who actually DOES know about WM apps knows that there are a ton of free apps that do exactly the same thing that paid apps in the app store do.
Secondly - Stop comparing this thing to the 2009 Touch FFS!!! Rather than sit there and talk about what you think the Touch might have, just focus on what Microsoft has announced the Zune will have. Bringing up rumors and trying to pass them off as nonexistent facts speaks wonders to someone's intelligence.
Finally - XBox integration. 30 Million sold and people here still think this won't be an eye catching feature of the Zune. Amazing.
What intrigues me the most with this Zune is the HD video output. With a wifi connection and Orb, I'll be able to stream my hd movies to my friends TV's, not to mention if I simply transfer them to the internal memory of this thing. I've got a fairly large library of movies, and even if they aren't 720p, the zune's native widescreen video output means I won't have to use standard rca cables for a 4:3 display that I crop.
Bottom line, this is a very decent product, and YES, it WILL give the ipod touch a run for it's money. Anyone who thinks it won't is living in a dream world, a fantasy, a place of myth and legend where Apple gives a crap about you defending them.
I've repeatedly said Xbox integration is the key to the zHD's success. Large installed base of xbox gives them a great foot in the door.
Don't tell people to forget about heresay then mention how the zune could "conceivably" run WinMo Apps. Going by your rationale, Apps have not been confirmed by Microsoft and should thus be left out of the discussion. Based strictly on announced facts, the Zune HD looks to be a solid PMP, but little else. Compared to the current features of the iPod Touch, it falls short in overall capability.
Entrenched IT and support interests for whom the platform is a gold mine of support?
People who are forced to have their home systems sync'd with those entrenched IT systems?
Walmart model (cheapo crap) sells more quantity than quality (more expensive) stores?
Just sayin'.
Spot on! I hate to use the same old automobile analogy, but it works. High volumes of cheaper cars in and of itself does NOT make them better than lower volume, more expensive vehicles.
With such a device the last thing you want to represent is an OS. it's an Information device, not a desktop computer.
There still using the "Start Button - Menu" theory.
Apple figured out a long time ago that removing the complexity to the user was key. Keep the OS out of the way. The only concept of OS should be to those who develop applications.
I find it amazing that after 30 years that some still think that representing an Electronic-Piece of paper is the key to a user interface. People do not think of the world in terms of a notepad, the perceived world/reality are Objects with Relationships. And as the user's perception changes so does the Reality. For example, at home provides a different perspective of the world than that of being at work.
Sorry to babble..
Bottom line... these devices need the ability to change with the user and their perception. Microsoft has never figured this out... they simply want compatibility with Windows. All of their SmartPhone demonstrate this, as does the Zune it just provides a little higher abstraction.
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
It looks better. Just like the new Apple keyboards with the numberpad chopped off. Less clutter. It's not ergonomic to type numbers all day without a number pad either. How do you explain that?
Interesting. If this unit came out when the iPod Nano came out, I would say that Apple would have a fight on their hands. As it is, iPod Nano is on gen 3 and you have the iPod touch for $200.
So the product looks good, Microsoft will get greedy with MS points, etc, and its 3-5 years late.
It should be interesting to read the articles about it and then see how it fares.
Spot on! I hate to use the same old automobile analogy, but it works. High volumes of cheaper cars in and of itself does NOT make them better than lower volume, more expensive vehicles.
Whatever. It's not about better - it's about something that works- period. if it didn't work people wouldn't use it. Enough said.
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
those touchsmart computers are universally accepted as gimmicky. That's not to say touch-screen computing is pointless, however, in it's current state, its a lame stab at differentiating your product from the rest.
What I don't understand is why AppleInsider fails to comment on the video that they post. They mention in the article that the reviewer claims the Zune is more responsive than the iPod Touch. However, it is clear in the video that the guy hits menu items multiple times to get it to respond. They claim it has a better UI, but the text is clearly cut off. If that is Microsoft's idea of a better UI, it is pretty retarded. The Gizmodo guy loses all credibility when he claims the photo he is looking at is HD. What a moron. The Zune HD loses credibility because they are misusing the term HD.
Whatever. It's not about better - it's about something that works- period. if it didn't work people wouldn't use it. Enough said.
I have to disagree. People are so entrenched with Windows, they just walk into their local Best Buy and pick the nicest looking, cheapest Windows box they see. I'm talking about the masses, not the small percentage of reasonably tech-minded consumers. The masses are quite simply unaware of any alternatives. Linux has its advantages just like OSX has it's advantages. But most people are not aware enough to give it a try, or they are afraid to switch. You can't argue the fact that the biggest thing Windows has going for it is inertia and low cost. Find me an advertisement which actually touts the benefits of Windows over Mac, instead of simply advertising your hardware partners' low cost.
What I don't understand is why AppleInsider fails to comment on the video that they post. They mention in the article that the reviewer claims the Zune is more responsive than the iPod Touch. However, it is clear in the video that the guy hits menu items multiple times to get it to respond. They claim it has a better UI, but the text is clearly cut off. If that is Microsoft's idea of a better UI, it is pretty retarded. The Gizmodo guy loses all credibility when he claims the photo he is looking at is HD. What a moron. The Zune HD loses credibility because they are misusing the term HD.
typical MS smoke and mirrors..."specs this! Specs that! more RAM! more gigabytes! buy me! Ignore overall functionality! I have bigger screen! Nevermind the horrible resolution! I cost less!"
typical MS smoke and mirrors..."specs this! Specs that! more RAM! more gigabytes! buy me! Ignore overall functionality! I have bigger screen! Nevermind the horrible resolution! I cost less!"
Comments
1. Apple has had the best supply-chain management in the US for at least the last 2 years (see AMR surveys). This is Cook's forte. Since it looks like Apple is willing to accept a smaller margin (30% instead of 32-35%) and have established preferred status with flash suppliers through their investment and market share, they have the wherewithal to have better hardware at any given price, or to charge less for the same hardware. This is enough to stay ahead (or even defeat) most competitors, however, since MS has shown a willingness to take losses, and subsidize via its monopoly profits on Windows/Office, MS can offset any supply-chain pricing disadvantage it faces.
2. Apple has been a leading innovator in ways that really matter to the user experience, including software, GUIs, and industrial design, by investing in R&D and having vision (going to where the puck is going to be). By doing so, it has been able to set the terms of the competition (or battlefield), forcing everyone to fight on its terms and radically changing those terms whenever a competitor approaches. This is the value of Steve Jobs. In the mobile space, they upended everyone with multi-touch, and access to the real Internet. Then while their competitors was chasing that, they switched on the SDK and the App Store in year 2. iPhone 3.0 software now points to dock-connected hardware accessories and local wifi-based collaboration/gaming apps. And rumors point to something more with the user experience for video. The competitors are certainly arriving on the multi-touch hardware front (but likely at a higher sales price or at a lower margin/profit point, and assuming no patent infringement), but still far away on the App Store.
So there's still room to have a somewhat conservative hardware refresh for iPhone/iPod touch this year(i.e., selling on momentum but really losing ground). But if this year's refresh is conservative, then no later than the next update in 2010, Apple will have to have changed the game on its competitors again. (And I think they will in ways we're only barely imagining right now.)
(BTW, a third advantage is the retail Apple Stores, and a fourth advantage is marketing insight.)
First off - APPS. Since this is based on Windows CE, the countless Windows Mobile apps that already exist could conceivably run fine on it. If you don't know about them, then don't even bother commenting on this. Otherwise, anyone who actually DOES know about WM apps knows that there are a ton of free apps that do exactly the same thing that paid apps in the app store do.
Secondly - Stop comparing this thing to the 2009 Touch FFS!!! Rather than sit there and talk about what you think the Touch might have, just focus on what Microsoft has announced the Zune will have. Bringing up rumors and trying to pass them off as nonexistent facts speaks wonders to someone's intelligence.
Finally - XBox integration. 30 Million sold and people here still think this won't be an eye catching feature of the Zune. Amazing.
What intrigues me the most with this Zune is the HD video output. With a wifi connection and Orb, I'll be able to stream my hd movies to my friends TV's, not to mention if I simply transfer them to the internal memory of this thing. I've got a fairly large library of movies, and even if they aren't 720p, the zune's native widescreen video output means I won't have to use standard rca cables for a 4:3 display that I crop.
Bottom line, this is a very decent product, and YES, it WILL give the ipod touch a run for it's money. Anyone who thinks it won't is living in a dream world, a fantasy, a place of myth and legend where Apple gives a crap about you defending them.
like the way they talk up how wonderful Macbooks were after all of their staff recieved their fancy Macbooks?
Well, yes actually. They seem to smile upon anyone who gives them product or $$.
Hardly makes me take them very seriously from any angle.
... Plus HP has a touch screen desk top already...
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
It's funny when Apple fans say things like this, then they go and defend Apple in even worse ways than the "fanboys" they were just talking about.
MS can't make a decent OS? Funny you say that, considering Windows had SMP/multi-processor support well before Apple did. Windows also had pre-emptive multi-tasking half a decade before Apple did. Plus, for years now, Windows has been taking full advantage of the GPU for video playback. Snow Leopard *might* finally do this, well over 10 years after Microsoft started laying the ground work for such features.
You missed the point. We could debate all day about the differences, MS wins here and Apple wins there however overall Apple has a better mix of features that I want in computers etc. That's all. I don't really like how MS "packages" their products because I'm not part of their demographic. I don't want a cheap iphone clone with some improved features and lacking others. I simply want an Iphone. As a package Apple products simply fit my needs better.
Put down the kool-aid drip and become a realist- if window products are all so sheet why do they dominate?.
Um, inertia resulting from monopoly status?
Entrenched IT and support interests for whom the platform is a gold mine of support?
People who are forced to have their home systems sync'd with those entrenched IT systems?
Walmart model (cheapo crap) sells more quantity than quality (more expensive) stores?
Just sayin'.
Ok this thread is getting completely out of hand with hearsay and rumors and what ifs.
First off - APPS. Since this is based on Windows CE, the countless Windows Mobile apps that already exist could conceivably run fine on it. If you don't know about them, then don't even bother commenting on this. Otherwise, anyone who actually DOES know about WM apps knows that there are a ton of free apps that do exactly the same thing that paid apps in the app store do.
Secondly - Stop comparing this thing to the 2009 Touch FFS!!! Rather than sit there and talk about what you think the Touch might have, just focus on what Microsoft has announced the Zune will have. Bringing up rumors and trying to pass them off as nonexistent facts speaks wonders to someone's intelligence.
Finally - XBox integration. 30 Million sold and people here still think this won't be an eye catching feature of the Zune. Amazing.
What intrigues me the most with this Zune is the HD video output. With a wifi connection and Orb, I'll be able to stream my hd movies to my friends TV's, not to mention if I simply transfer them to the internal memory of this thing. I've got a fairly large library of movies, and even if they aren't 720p, the zune's native widescreen video output means I won't have to use standard rca cables for a 4:3 display that I crop.
Bottom line, this is a very decent product, and YES, it WILL give the ipod touch a run for it's money. Anyone who thinks it won't is living in a dream world, a fantasy, a place of myth and legend where Apple gives a crap about you defending them.
I've repeatedly said Xbox integration is the key to the zHD's success. Large installed base of xbox gives them a great foot in the door.
Don't tell people to forget about heresay then mention how the zune could "conceivably" run WinMo Apps. Going by your rationale, Apps have not been confirmed by Microsoft and should thus be left out of the discussion. Based strictly on announced facts, the Zune HD looks to be a solid PMP, but little else. Compared to the current features of the iPod Touch, it falls short in overall capability.
Um, inertia resulting from monopoly status?
Entrenched IT and support interests for whom the platform is a gold mine of support?
People who are forced to have their home systems sync'd with those entrenched IT systems?
Walmart model (cheapo crap) sells more quantity than quality (more expensive) stores?
Just sayin'.
Spot on! I hate to use the same old automobile analogy, but it works. High volumes of cheaper cars in and of itself does NOT make them better than lower volume, more expensive vehicles.
With such a device the last thing you want to represent is an OS. it's an Information device, not a desktop computer.
There still using the "Start Button - Menu" theory.
Apple figured out a long time ago that removing the complexity to the user was key. Keep the OS out of the way. The only concept of OS should be to those who develop applications.
I find it amazing that after 30 years that some still think that representing an Electronic-Piece of paper is the key to a user interface. People do not think of the world in terms of a notepad, the perceived world/reality are Objects with Relationships. And as the user's perception changes so does the Reality. For example, at home provides a different perspective of the world than that of being at work.
Sorry to babble..
Bottom line... these devices need the ability to change with the user and their perception. Microsoft has never figured this out... they simply want compatibility with Windows. All of their SmartPhone demonstrate this, as does the Zune it just provides a little higher abstraction.
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
It looks better. Just like the new Apple keyboards with the numberpad chopped off. Less clutter. It's not ergonomic to type numbers all day without a number pad either. How do you explain that?
........ For now, Lam claims that only Microsoft's usual insistence on Windows-only support is likely to keep him from owning one himself.
"I would take this in a heartbeat, provided they get around to making a Mac client," he says.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Interesting. If this unit came out when the iPod Nano came out, I would say that Apple would have a fight on their hands. As it is, iPod Nano is on gen 3 and you have the iPod touch for $200.
So the product looks good, Microsoft will get greedy with MS points, etc, and its 3-5 years late.
It should be interesting to read the articles about it and then see how it fares.
Just a thought.
en
Spot on! I hate to use the same old automobile analogy, but it works. High volumes of cheaper cars in and of itself does NOT make them better than lower volume, more expensive vehicles.
Whatever. It's not about better - it's about something that works- period. if it didn't work people wouldn't use it. Enough said.
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
those touchsmart computers are universally accepted as gimmicky. That's not to say touch-screen computing is pointless, however, in it's current state, its a lame stab at differentiating your product from the rest.
Seriously... can someone explain the virtues of a touch screen desktop monitor to me (other than at a standing kiosk)?
Just think about the experience of interacting with the screen all day by having to extend your arms horizontally. Talk about an ergonomic nightmare.
I'm truly curious.
My thoughts exactly.
Whatever. It's not about better - it's about something that works- period. if it didn't work people wouldn't use it. Enough said.
I have to disagree. People are so entrenched with Windows, they just walk into their local Best Buy and pick the nicest looking, cheapest Windows box they see. I'm talking about the masses, not the small percentage of reasonably tech-minded consumers. The masses are quite simply unaware of any alternatives. Linux has its advantages just like OSX has it's advantages. But most people are not aware enough to give it a try, or they are afraid to switch. You can't argue the fact that the biggest thing Windows has going for it is inertia and low cost. Find me an advertisement which actually touts the benefits of Windows over Mac, instead of simply advertising your hardware partners' low cost.
What I don't understand is why AppleInsider fails to comment on the video that they post. They mention in the article that the reviewer claims the Zune is more responsive than the iPod Touch. However, it is clear in the video that the guy hits menu items multiple times to get it to respond. They claim it has a better UI, but the text is clearly cut off. If that is Microsoft's idea of a better UI, it is pretty retarded. The Gizmodo guy loses all credibility when he claims the photo he is looking at is HD. What a moron. The Zune HD loses credibility because they are misusing the term HD.
typical MS smoke and mirrors..."specs this! Specs that! more RAM! more gigabytes! buy me! Ignore overall functionality! I have bigger screen! Nevermind the horrible resolution! I cost less!"
::vomit::
typical MS smoke and mirrors..."specs this! Specs that! more RAM! more gigabytes! buy me! Ignore overall functionality! I have bigger screen! Nevermind the horrible resolution! I cost less!"
::vomit::
I like this guy.