Sprint's nav is free because Sprint is desperate and barely alive. I had Sprint nav when it was $10 a month. Both Sprint and Palm are on their last, desperate gasp. They are not competing with Apple and AT&T. They are competing with the grim reaper.
I agree with this statement, there is a reason why certain carriers (see sprint and cricket) have a rediculous plan with everything but the kitchen sink included. This is because THEIR coverage is weak. Im sorry but i would rather shell out the extra coin for good coverage . I have had sprint in the past as a work phone and it was the worst experience. A lot of my calls were dropped on my route and data? fuggettaboutit! I have had no problems with at&t at all and i travel through the mountains and various other parts of the country. and as for the pre? im sorry but i do not see folks switching from at&t to go to sprint to just get the pre, but i do see a lot of people switching from sprint to get the iphone.
The reality is that at this stage Apple is enabling AT&T.
"Enabling" perhaps. I kinda like the word "tolerating."
As to Apple's position that it's sticking with a single wireless standard for iPhones, I'd bet that at this very moment they have fully functioning lab versions that work on practically every standard out there - present and anticipated. Apple has the cash and resources to plow billions into R&D, and they're not the kind who allow themselves to be boxed in to any single technology when there are good alternatives.
So what happens when AT&T's exclusivity agreement is up? Apple will be in the driver's seat to deal with additional wireless carriers. With its huge installed base of iPhone users, AT&T will make whatever concessions it needs to hold on to subscribers. Apple will have the leverage of the most advanced, flexible and desirable products in the marketplace, and it won't be pretty for AT&T. Don't think that Apple is ignoring the marketplace's gripes about AT&T. Apple just isn't talking about what it plans to do.
Way to go, was this what you were doing for five months, instead of perhaps getting MMS and Tethering all ready to go? way to go HOP TO IT! Its pretty embarrassing for Apple to have a carrier not have all its features ready to go, especially its the home carrier of where the iPhone was originated..Gold star to you! \
I'll warn you - this begins a long rant against AT&T
1. AT&T Navigator is a desperate attempt to extract more revenue from iPhone users, serving up an app-styled system that offers little extra value for the $120/year price.
2. So far, AT&T has gotten a pass in the media about its resistance to tethering iPhones to notebooks, thus enabling a truly portable Internet connection for iPhone notebook users.
3. Despite what it says, this sorry behemoth is still wedded to copper - paired wire wireline POTS to residential phone customers. They'll get out of this when the contribution of the business drops below the salvage value from ripping out the wire and selling it as scrap.
4. Don't think Apple is unaware of or will overlook AT&T's anti-customer behavior by trying to prevent iPhone tethering or dragging its feet on MMS.
If you're an investor for the long pull, you want to be loading up on AAPL and getting out of T while you can. It's the difference between a creative organization focused on new opportunities to win customers and a mossbound has-been trying to hold on to businesses that matter less and less in the marketplace.
(1) Every single carrier charges the same $10 a month and $3 a day subscription for TBT navigation --- it's a massive success so far.
(2) Every other carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering --- that's why you don't see newspaper reporters complaining about it.
(3) Carriers only have so much money they can spend on infrastructure. AT&T spent many more bucks on subsidizing the iphone to people like you, so they can't match Verizon's spending on 3G network builds and fiber optics network.
(4) Other carriers around the world are charging twice (even 4x) the money per MMS than SMS. AT&T is charging MMS the same price as SMS. And as I said in (2), every iphone carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering.
(5) There is no comparision between investing in AT&T or Apple stock. If you want to compare, then do a comparision of AT&T and Verizon stock.
If nothing else, I'll certainly agree with you on that!
Yes, AT&T is a safe utility stock with safe yields on stable dividend payouts. Apple is a much higher risk tech stock that doesn't pay any dividends at all.
Yes, AT&T is a safe utility stock with safe yields on stable dividend payouts. Apple is a much higher risk tech stock that doesn't pay any dividends at all.
Yeah, okay. Tell me all about safe yields and stable dividends. Try telling me about total return. Last fall I sold T and bought AAPL. Care to guess since then what's provided better return and what's sucking wind?
The old paradigms about communications utilities are no longer sacrosanct, as phone consumers continually migrate away from regulated wireline monopolies in an increasingly competitive wireless world. POTS is no longer as large or secure a revenue and earnings generator for stable dividends, and the steady deterioration in AT&T's share price and market cap to book value reflects its overall loss of investors' confidence.
Let's revisit this subject in a year and see where AT&T stands then with respect to those "safe" yields. Moreover, watch what happens to this "safe utility" when it loses its iPhone exclusivity.
Yeah, okay. Tell me all about safe yields and stable dividends. Try telling me about total return. Last fall I sold T and bought AAPL. Care to guess since then what's provided better return and what's sucking wind?
I never said that AAPL is a bad investment. I said that it is a higher risk investment that cannot be compared with a low risk, low growth, stable utility stock.
You are basically comparing two entirely different animals --- like putting money in a safe bank deposit vs. buying penny stocks.
The iPhone did not have TBT at the time, we were using Google Maps. Furthermore no we didn't take a direct route. We stopped in different cities to see friends/family along the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Do you really need turn-by-turn directions to get from CA to NY? Just get on I-80 and drive East till you see the GW bridge. Well, OK, the whole I-95 thing at the end could be confusing to some, I guess.
I'll warn you - this begins a long rant against AT&T, ignited by their Navigator announcement and the recognition that this bloated relic in the communications industry still has it all wrong strategically, and may be in even more trouble in the long-run than Microsoft.
Within all of AT&T's faults you have to remember they are a big part of the reason the iPhone exists. Apple pitched the idea to them without a prototype. AT&T had faith that Apple would create a great enough device that they went along with Apple's unusual stipulations for how the device would be carried and sold. No other phone maker had been able to make such a deal.
Quote:
AT&T Navigator is a desperate attempt to extract more revenue from iPhone users, serving up an app-styled system that offers little extra value for the $120/year price.
Why shouldn't AT&T offer it's services? Every mobile carrier around the world offers extended services to extract more revenue. In many cases the customer is locked into the carriers service. In this case their is a choice to accept AT&T's service.
Quote:
So far, AT&T has gotten a pass in the media about its resistance to tethering iPhones to notebooks, thus enabling a truly portable Internet connection for iPhone notebook users.
AT&T hasn't gotten a pass for this at all, at Apple's conference the media laughed about ATT not supporting tethering. The reality is that in places like New York their network is already at capacity, tethering would would be a disaster. AT&T is likely waiting to complete network upgrades that will add additional bandwidth for tethering.
"Enabling" perhaps. I kinda like the word "tolerating."
As to Apple's position that it's sticking with a single wireless standard for iPhones, I'd bet that at this very moment they have fully functioning lab versions that work on practically every standard out there - present and anticipated. Apple has the cash and resources to plow billions into R&D, and they're not the kind who allow themselves to be boxed in to any single technology when there are good alternatives.
So what happens when AT&T's exclusivity agreement is up? Apple will be in the driver's seat to deal with additional wireless carriers. With its huge installed base of iPhone users, AT&T will make whatever concessions it needs to hold on to subscribers. Apple will have the leverage of the most advanced, flexible and desirable products in the marketplace, and it won't be pretty for AT&T. Don't think that Apple is ignoring the marketplace's gripes about AT&T. Apple just isn't talking about what it plans to do.
I have no doubt that you are 100% correct with regard to Apple and their R&D. However Apple really does get very stubborn about certain things and also convinces themselves that certain niches bring the cash and for whatever reason, they won't leave them. I guess what I'm talking about is the premise of every single xMac thread ever created. Apple doesn't think a reasonable consumer tower will make money and so despite the ease with which they could create it, it doesn't exist.
This feels very much the same. Apple enjoys what they get from AT&T and they are certainly making money on it, and even though you would think having a couple more vendors available would radically broaden their market (just like the xMac would) for whatever reason, they might not do it.
That would suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
(1) Every single carrier charges the same $10 a month and $3 a day subscription for TBT navigation --- it's a massive success so far.
(2) Every other carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering --- that's why you don't see newspaper reporters complaining about it.
(3) Carriers only have so much money they can spend on infrastructure. AT&T spent many more bucks on subsidizing the iphone to people like you, so they can't match Verizon's spending on 3G network builds and fiber optics network.
(4) Other carriers around the world are charging twice (even 4x) the money per MMS than SMS. AT&T is charging MMS the same price as SMS. And as I said in (2), every iphone carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering.
(5) There is no comparision between investing in AT&T or Apple stock. If you want to compare, then do a comparision of AT&T and Verizon stock.
I see your points with tethering but many companies are now eithing including or starting to bundle GPS services for a cost lower than $10 a month. The smart company is going to be the one that creates the $.99 cent value meal or combo meal of cellular services. Those things can really add up. VZW has visual voicemail available. If they made it a buck per month, per phone, most people would probably add it without much thought just on impulse. I doubt most people use GPS that much in terms of day to day data usage. Make it an impulse buy. $1 a day or $3 per month per phone.
Competition is forcing VZ to alter it's tyranical practices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman
Yes and when I get my GPS app included for $20 a month and you have to pay $30 a month for data and $10 a month more for this app, you are being charged a lot more money. BTW, I looked into what I suspect you were talking about with regard to Verizon. They've been less than perfect in the past but have opened their network to included GPS services within smartphones and are even releasing new ROMs to enable the service within previously released phones. They've already done this for the Storm and Samsung Omnia i910.
I have no doubt that you are 100% correct with regard to Apple and their R&D. However Apple really does get very stubborn about certain things and also convinces themselves that certain niches bring the cash and for whatever reason, they won't leave them. I guess what I'm talking about is the premise of every single xMac thread ever created. Apple doesn't think a reasonable consumer tower will make money and so despite the ease with which they could create it, it doesn't exist.
What do you mean by niche? GSM is the dominant world standard, CDMA is the niche.
As far as the Xmac, notebooks are far outselling desktops in number and generate more revenue per unit sold.
Quote:
VZW has visual voicemail available. If they made it a buck per month, per phone, most people would probably add it without much thought just on impulse.
Visual Voicemail is included with the iPhone. You aren't up in arms about VZ charging extra for it?
DIT: The dash mount just improves the GPS signal - the app will function fine without it (at least that's what they said during the keynote)
Aha. So TomTom is basically just providing their UI and maps... I'd expect them to sell this app for about $50 then. They have to keep their price up there or they will cannibalize their own hardware sales.
Aha. So TomTom is basically just providing their UI and maps... I'd expect them to sell this app for about $50 then. They have to keep their price up there or they will cannibalize their own hardware sales.
So what if they cannibalize their hardware sales?
TomTom now owns 1 of the 2 map makers of the world --- it's much better for them to sit back and collect their king's ransom from their duopolistic position.
Competition is forcing VZ to alter it's tyranical practices.
That is better than competition apparently making them adopt tyrannical practices ala AT&T.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
What do you mean by niche? GSM is the dominant world standard, CDMA is the niche.
Yes well regardless of what the world adopts turning your nose up at the 140 million customers within the U.S. who use both Verizon and Sprint is not good business. Competitors like Blackberry essentually have all these customers to themselves with no competition. Sometimes you have to play well with others. Apple promotes MS Office even while offering a competitor. They should be able to manage to offer a phone with both standards in it.
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As far as the Xmac, notebooks are far outselling desktops in number and generate more revenue per unit sold.
You keep trying to make it an OR question when it is an AND question. No one has to make a choice between CDMA or GSM. They can support both. Apple doesn't have to choose between laptops and an xMac, they can easily make both. They can make plenty of profits and have even more sales from all these categories.
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Visual Voicemail is included with the iPhone. You aren't up in arms about VZ charging extra for it?
My reasoning is quite consistent. It would fit right within that value proposition I mentioned that makes choices almost impulse items. Visual voicemail costs $3 a month and you have a choice about that $3.
So let's add it up. I spend $20 a month to get email, data/internet, vcast, and gps. I can add VVM for $3 for a total of $23.
Or I could go the AT&T route which INCLUDES VVM (which you noted isn't free as a bundle when the circumstances were reversed) and spend $30 for the data plus $10 for GPS.
Plus I have two phones in my household so I could spend $46 or... $80.
I'm supposed to be crying over spending $46? Better still I don't care about visualizing the listening of my voice messages so I spend... $40 instead of $80 and... I'm supposed to be crying.
TomTom now owns 1 of the 2 map makers of the world --- it's much better for them to sit back and collect their king's ransom from their duopolistic position.
If you have a lot of hardware in inventory, it's an important reason to want to avoid cannibalization.
That is better than competition apparently making them adopt tyrannical practices ala AT&T.
What AT&T tyrannical practices do you speak of?
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Yes well regardless of what the world adopts turning your nose up at the 140 million customers within the U.S. who use both Verizon and Sprint is not good business. Competitors like Blackberry essentually have all these customers to themselves with no competition. Sometimes you have to play well with others. Apple promotes MS Office even while offering a competitor. They should be able to manage to offer a phone with both standards in it.
CDMA is on its way out. Sprint and Verizon will phase it out over the next few years.
Apple decided to forgo 140 million potential customers to support nearly 4 billion potential customers.
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You keep trying to make it an OR question when it is an AND question. No one has to make a choice between CDMA or GSM. They can support both. Apple doesn't have to choose between laptops and an xMac, they can easily make both. They can make plenty of profits and have even more sales from all these categories.
Apple could fully support both. But there is a reason why they don't. Its a sound business strategy to pick one and focus your finite resources inon making the best product in that category. This strategy is working great for Apple.
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So let's add it up. I spend $20 a month to get email, data/internet, vcast, and gps. I can add VVM for $3 for a total of $23.
Or I could go the AT&T route which INCLUDES VVM (which you noted isn't free as a bundle when the circumstances were reversed) and spend $30 for the data plus $10 for GPS.
GPS does come with the $30, you have the option of paying for another GPS product if you so choose.
Here is how I see the value break down, I pay $30 to get:
push email that fully supports HTML5, reads Word/PDF/Excel/PowerPoint documents
unlimited data with a web browser that is HTML5 compliant
unlimited access to dozens of media services
thousands of 3rd party apps designed by the best software developers in the industry
Add it up, consider the level of coverage and service and figure it out for yourself. I already gave you my personal example.
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CDMA is on its way out. Sprint and Verizon will phase it out over the next few years.
Apple decided to forgo 140 million potential customers to support nearly 4 billion potential customers.
Everything is on the way out. Apple support 2G and it is on the way out. Do you think they will support much of what is on the iPhone now in a couple years? Do you think they are going to be sweating 2 mp cameras for example and god help them if the only display they support in two years is 320x200.
Everything is on the way out. Considering Apple has twenty million or so in sales for the iPhone worldwide, what makes you think they should scoff at a potential new and untapped market so large. Maybe including entire segments of the world that are undeveloped and don't even use cell phones might make you feel better, but doesn't change market dynamics. Other companies are catching up quick and aren't artificially limiting themselves.
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Apple could fully support both. But there is a reason why they don't. Its a sound business strategy to pick one and focus your finite resources inon making the best product in that category. This strategy is working great for Apple.
The reason they don't must be known to you and magic fairies. Apple is no longer a start up in the cell phone game. They are not a start up with limited resources or money. Claiming that you can just keep doing something until it fails is the worse kind of business planning. Many reviews for the GS note that the hardware is nothing new, the specs are finally coming up to not so far behind and the software was basically about adding what was missing from the iPhone compared to other smart phones (TBT GPS, MMS, copy/paste, etc.) Apple basically lucked into the app store since it clearly wasn't planned at the beginning but all their competitors will be there very soon.
The other point is that the competitors aren't just catching up but are moving at a much faster rate than one release a year. Palm has already had two updates. Their app store will be out in three months, not twelve. Palm Eon will be out in a couple months, not a couple years. The next version of the Storm will be out within a couple months and several other models have been upgraded as well.
Others are doing more with less in shorter time-frames. Apple has to respond.
Quote:
GPS does come with the $30, you have the option of paying for another GPS product if you so choose.
Here is how I see the value break down, I pay $30 to get:
* push email that fully supports HTML5, reads Word/PDF/Excel/PowerPoint documents
* unlimited data with a web browser that is HTML5 compliant
* unlimited access to dozens of media services
* thousands of 3rd party apps designed by the best software developers in the industry
* google maps
Listing everything that comes with the data plan is ridiculous. It is like declaring that because you pay your electric bill, everything that plugs into a wall is a feature of that bill.
Add it up, consider the level of coverage and service and figure it out for yourself. I already gave you my personal example.
At least in my experience with the iPhone, I've found AT&T to be a lot more open than the industry norm. I would not consider their network condition to be tyranny just incompetence.
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Everything is on the way out.
HDSPA has much more room to grow over the next few years and will naturally evolve into LTE. It has a longer future time line than EV-DO.
Quote:
Apple is no longer a start up in the cell phone game. They are not a start up with limited resources or money. Claiming that you can just keep doing something until it fails is the worse kind of business planning. Many reviews for the GS note that the hardware is nothing new, the specs are finally coming up to not so far behind and the software was basically about adding what was missing from the iPhone compared to other smart phones (TBT GPS, MMS, copy/paste, etc.) Apple basically lucked into the app store since it clearly wasn't planned at the beginning but all their competitors will be there very soon.
Every company has limited resouces. Some companies have access to more resources than others.
The hardware for the iPhone has always been off the shelf parts. The software has always been the differentiator. At least until Apple uses it's own chips in the near future.
The App Store was always planned. Apple announced the SDK was coming a couple of months after the original iPhone was launched.
Quote:
The other point is that the competitors aren't just catching up but are moving at a much faster rate than one release a year. Palm has already had two updates. Their app store will be out in three months, not twelve. Palm Eon will be out in a couple months, not a couple years. The next version of the Storm will be out within a couple months and several other models have been upgraded as well.
The Pre app store is already available. The SDK isn't publicly available.
For the past two and a half years people have been declaring the phone that will best the iPhone is about to come out soon.
Quote:
Others are doing more with less in shorter time-frames. Apple has to respond.
I don't understand this logic, why does Apple have to compete with companies who are doing more with less?
Quote:
Listing everything that comes with the data plan is ridiculous. It is like declaring that because you pay your electric bill, everything that plugs into a wall is a feature of that bill.
The iPhone is a purpose built platform. The electric plugs in my house are not. I'm not sure how you tie them together.
Comments
Sprint's nav is free because Sprint is desperate and barely alive. I had Sprint nav when it was $10 a month. Both Sprint and Palm are on their last, desperate gasp. They are not competing with Apple and AT&T. They are competing with the grim reaper.
I agree with this statement, there is a reason why certain carriers (see sprint and cricket) have a rediculous plan with everything but the kitchen sink included. This is because THEIR coverage is weak. Im sorry but i would rather shell out the extra coin for good coverage . I have had sprint in the past as a work phone and it was the worst experience. A lot of my calls were dropped on my route and data? fuggettaboutit! I have had no problems with at&t at all and i travel through the mountains and various other parts of the country. and as for the pre? im sorry but i do not see folks switching from at&t to go to sprint to just get the pre, but i do see a lot of people switching from sprint to get the iphone.
The reality is that at this stage Apple is enabling AT&T.
"Enabling" perhaps. I kinda like the word "tolerating."
As to Apple's position that it's sticking with a single wireless standard for iPhones, I'd bet that at this very moment they have fully functioning lab versions that work on practically every standard out there - present and anticipated. Apple has the cash and resources to plow billions into R&D, and they're not the kind who allow themselves to be boxed in to any single technology when there are good alternatives.
So what happens when AT&T's exclusivity agreement is up? Apple will be in the driver's seat to deal with additional wireless carriers. With its huge installed base of iPhone users, AT&T will make whatever concessions it needs to hold on to subscribers. Apple will have the leverage of the most advanced, flexible and desirable products in the marketplace, and it won't be pretty for AT&T. Don't think that Apple is ignoring the marketplace's gripes about AT&T. Apple just isn't talking about what it plans to do.
I'll warn you - this begins a long rant against AT&T
1. AT&T Navigator is a desperate attempt to extract more revenue from iPhone users, serving up an app-styled system that offers little extra value for the $120/year price.
2. So far, AT&T has gotten a pass in the media about its resistance to tethering iPhones to notebooks, thus enabling a truly portable Internet connection for iPhone notebook users.
3. Despite what it says, this sorry behemoth is still wedded to copper - paired wire wireline POTS to residential phone customers. They'll get out of this when the contribution of the business drops below the salvage value from ripping out the wire and selling it as scrap.
4. Don't think Apple is unaware of or will overlook AT&T's anti-customer behavior by trying to prevent iPhone tethering or dragging its feet on MMS.
If you're an investor for the long pull, you want to be loading up on AAPL and getting out of T while you can. It's the difference between a creative organization focused on new opportunities to win customers and a mossbound has-been trying to hold on to businesses that matter less and less in the marketplace.
(1) Every single carrier charges the same $10 a month and $3 a day subscription for TBT navigation --- it's a massive success so far.
(2) Every other carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering --- that's why you don't see newspaper reporters complaining about it.
(3) Carriers only have so much money they can spend on infrastructure. AT&T spent many more bucks on subsidizing the iphone to people like you, so they can't match Verizon's spending on 3G network builds and fiber optics network.
(4) Other carriers around the world are charging twice (even 4x) the money per MMS than SMS. AT&T is charging MMS the same price as SMS. And as I said in (2), every iphone carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering.
(5) There is no comparision between investing in AT&T or Apple stock. If you want to compare, then do a comparision of AT&T and Verizon stock.
There is no comparision between investing in AT&T or Apple stock.
If nothing else, I'll certainly agree with you on that!
If nothing else, I'll certainly agree with you on that!
Yes, AT&T is a safe utility stock with safe yields on stable dividend payouts. Apple is a much higher risk tech stock that doesn't pay any dividends at all.
Yes, AT&T is a safe utility stock with safe yields on stable dividend payouts. Apple is a much higher risk tech stock that doesn't pay any dividends at all.
Yeah, okay. Tell me all about safe yields and stable dividends. Try telling me about total return. Last fall I sold T and bought AAPL. Care to guess since then what's provided better return and what's sucking wind?
The old paradigms about communications utilities are no longer sacrosanct, as phone consumers continually migrate away from regulated wireline monopolies in an increasingly competitive wireless world. POTS is no longer as large or secure a revenue and earnings generator for stable dividends, and the steady deterioration in AT&T's share price and market cap to book value reflects its overall loss of investors' confidence.
Let's revisit this subject in a year and see where AT&T stands then with respect to those "safe" yields. Moreover, watch what happens to this "safe utility" when it loses its iPhone exclusivity.
Yeah, okay. Tell me all about safe yields and stable dividends. Try telling me about total return. Last fall I sold T and bought AAPL. Care to guess since then what's provided better return and what's sucking wind?
I never said that AAPL is a bad investment. I said that it is a higher risk investment that cannot be compared with a low risk, low growth, stable utility stock.
You are basically comparing two entirely different animals --- like putting money in a safe bank deposit vs. buying penny stocks.
Do you really need turn-by-turn directions to get from CA to NY? Just get on I-80 and drive East till you see the GW bridge. Well, OK, the whole I-95 thing at the end could be confusing to some, I guess.
I'll warn you - this begins a long rant against AT&T, ignited by their Navigator announcement and the recognition that this bloated relic in the communications industry still has it all wrong strategically, and may be in even more trouble in the long-run than Microsoft.
Within all of AT&T's faults you have to remember they are a big part of the reason the iPhone exists. Apple pitched the idea to them without a prototype. AT&T had faith that Apple would create a great enough device that they went along with Apple's unusual stipulations for how the device would be carried and sold. No other phone maker had been able to make such a deal.
AT&T Navigator is a desperate attempt to extract more revenue from iPhone users, serving up an app-styled system that offers little extra value for the $120/year price.
Why shouldn't AT&T offer it's services? Every mobile carrier around the world offers extended services to extract more revenue. In many cases the customer is locked into the carriers service. In this case their is a choice to accept AT&T's service.
So far, AT&T has gotten a pass in the media about its resistance to tethering iPhones to notebooks, thus enabling a truly portable Internet connection for iPhone notebook users.
AT&T hasn't gotten a pass for this at all, at Apple's conference the media laughed about ATT not supporting tethering. The reality is that in places like New York their network is already at capacity, tethering would would be a disaster. AT&T is likely waiting to complete network upgrades that will add additional bandwidth for tethering.
"Enabling" perhaps. I kinda like the word "tolerating."
As to Apple's position that it's sticking with a single wireless standard for iPhones, I'd bet that at this very moment they have fully functioning lab versions that work on practically every standard out there - present and anticipated. Apple has the cash and resources to plow billions into R&D, and they're not the kind who allow themselves to be boxed in to any single technology when there are good alternatives.
So what happens when AT&T's exclusivity agreement is up? Apple will be in the driver's seat to deal with additional wireless carriers. With its huge installed base of iPhone users, AT&T will make whatever concessions it needs to hold on to subscribers. Apple will have the leverage of the most advanced, flexible and desirable products in the marketplace, and it won't be pretty for AT&T. Don't think that Apple is ignoring the marketplace's gripes about AT&T. Apple just isn't talking about what it plans to do.
I have no doubt that you are 100% correct with regard to Apple and their R&D. However Apple really does get very stubborn about certain things and also convinces themselves that certain niches bring the cash and for whatever reason, they won't leave them. I guess what I'm talking about is the premise of every single xMac thread ever created. Apple doesn't think a reasonable consumer tower will make money and so despite the ease with which they could create it, it doesn't exist.
This feels very much the same. Apple enjoys what they get from AT&T and they are certainly making money on it, and even though you would think having a couple more vendors available would radically broaden their market (just like the xMac would) for whatever reason, they might not do it.
That would suck.
(1) Every single carrier charges the same $10 a month and $3 a day subscription for TBT navigation --- it's a massive success so far.
(2) Every other carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering --- that's why you don't see newspaper reporters complaining about it.
(3) Carriers only have so much money they can spend on infrastructure. AT&T spent many more bucks on subsidizing the iphone to people like you, so they can't match Verizon's spending on 3G network builds and fiber optics network.
(4) Other carriers around the world are charging twice (even 4x) the money per MMS than SMS. AT&T is charging MMS the same price as SMS. And as I said in (2), every iphone carriers in the world are charging for iphone tethering.
(5) There is no comparision between investing in AT&T or Apple stock. If you want to compare, then do a comparision of AT&T and Verizon stock.
I see your points with tethering but many companies are now eithing including or starting to bundle GPS services for a cost lower than $10 a month. The smart company is going to be the one that creates the $.99 cent value meal or combo meal of cellular services. Those things can really add up. VZW has visual voicemail available. If they made it a buck per month, per phone, most people would probably add it without much thought just on impulse. I doubt most people use GPS that much in terms of day to day data usage. Make it an impulse buy. $1 a day or $3 per month per phone.
Yes and when I get my GPS app included for $20 a month and you have to pay $30 a month for data and $10 a month more for this app, you are being charged a lot more money. BTW, I looked into what I suspect you were talking about with regard to Verizon. They've been less than perfect in the past but have opened their network to included GPS services within smartphones and are even releasing new ROMs to enable the service within previously released phones. They've already done this for the Storm and Samsung Omnia i910.
I have no doubt that you are 100% correct with regard to Apple and their R&D. However Apple really does get very stubborn about certain things and also convinces themselves that certain niches bring the cash and for whatever reason, they won't leave them. I guess what I'm talking about is the premise of every single xMac thread ever created. Apple doesn't think a reasonable consumer tower will make money and so despite the ease with which they could create it, it doesn't exist.
What do you mean by niche? GSM is the dominant world standard, CDMA is the niche.
As far as the Xmac, notebooks are far outselling desktops in number and generate more revenue per unit sold.
VZW has visual voicemail available. If they made it a buck per month, per phone, most people would probably add it without much thought just on impulse.
Visual Voicemail is included with the iPhone. You aren't up in arms about VZ charging extra for it?
DIT: The dash mount just improves the GPS signal - the app will function fine without it (at least that's what they said during the keynote)
Aha. So TomTom is basically just providing their UI and maps... I'd expect them to sell this app for about $50 then. They have to keep their price up there or they will cannibalize their own hardware sales.
Aha. So TomTom is basically just providing their UI and maps... I'd expect them to sell this app for about $50 then. They have to keep their price up there or they will cannibalize their own hardware sales.
So what if they cannibalize their hardware sales?
TomTom now owns 1 of the 2 map makers of the world --- it's much better for them to sit back and collect their king's ransom from their duopolistic position.
Competition is forcing VZ to alter it's tyranical practices.
That is better than competition apparently making them adopt tyrannical practices ala AT&T.
What do you mean by niche? GSM is the dominant world standard, CDMA is the niche.
Yes well regardless of what the world adopts turning your nose up at the 140 million customers within the U.S. who use both Verizon and Sprint is not good business. Competitors like Blackberry essentually have all these customers to themselves with no competition. Sometimes you have to play well with others. Apple promotes MS Office even while offering a competitor. They should be able to manage to offer a phone with both standards in it.
As far as the Xmac, notebooks are far outselling desktops in number and generate more revenue per unit sold.
You keep trying to make it an OR question when it is an AND question. No one has to make a choice between CDMA or GSM. They can support both. Apple doesn't have to choose between laptops and an xMac, they can easily make both. They can make plenty of profits and have even more sales from all these categories.
Visual Voicemail is included with the iPhone. You aren't up in arms about VZ charging extra for it?
My reasoning is quite consistent. It would fit right within that value proposition I mentioned that makes choices almost impulse items. Visual voicemail costs $3 a month and you have a choice about that $3.
So let's add it up. I spend $20 a month to get email, data/internet, vcast, and gps. I can add VVM for $3 for a total of $23.
Or I could go the AT&T route which INCLUDES VVM (which you noted isn't free as a bundle when the circumstances were reversed) and spend $30 for the data plus $10 for GPS.
Plus I have two phones in my household so I could spend $46 or... $80.
I'm supposed to be crying over spending $46? Better still I don't care about visualizing the listening of my voice messages so I spend... $40 instead of $80 and... I'm supposed to be crying.
You are hilarious.
So what if they cannibalize their hardware sales?
TomTom now owns 1 of the 2 map makers of the world --- it's much better for them to sit back and collect their king's ransom from their duopolistic position.
If you have a lot of hardware in inventory, it's an important reason to want to avoid cannibalization.
That is better than competition apparently making them adopt tyrannical practices ala AT&T.
What AT&T tyrannical practices do you speak of?
Yes well regardless of what the world adopts turning your nose up at the 140 million customers within the U.S. who use both Verizon and Sprint is not good business. Competitors like Blackberry essentually have all these customers to themselves with no competition. Sometimes you have to play well with others. Apple promotes MS Office even while offering a competitor. They should be able to manage to offer a phone with both standards in it.
CDMA is on its way out. Sprint and Verizon will phase it out over the next few years.
Apple decided to forgo 140 million potential customers to support nearly 4 billion potential customers.
You keep trying to make it an OR question when it is an AND question. No one has to make a choice between CDMA or GSM. They can support both. Apple doesn't have to choose between laptops and an xMac, they can easily make both. They can make plenty of profits and have even more sales from all these categories.
Apple could fully support both. But there is a reason why they don't. Its a sound business strategy to pick one and focus your finite resources inon making the best product in that category. This strategy is working great for Apple.
So let's add it up. I spend $20 a month to get email, data/internet, vcast, and gps. I can add VVM for $3 for a total of $23.
Or I could go the AT&T route which INCLUDES VVM (which you noted isn't free as a bundle when the circumstances were reversed) and spend $30 for the data plus $10 for GPS.
GPS does come with the $30, you have the option of paying for another GPS product if you so choose.
Here is how I see the value break down, I pay $30 to get:
What AT&T tyrannical practices do you speak of?
Add it up, consider the level of coverage and service and figure it out for yourself. I already gave you my personal example.
CDMA is on its way out. Sprint and Verizon will phase it out over the next few years.
Apple decided to forgo 140 million potential customers to support nearly 4 billion potential customers.
Everything is on the way out. Apple support 2G and it is on the way out. Do you think they will support much of what is on the iPhone now in a couple years? Do you think they are going to be sweating 2 mp cameras for example and god help them if the only display they support in two years is 320x200.
Everything is on the way out. Considering Apple has twenty million or so in sales for the iPhone worldwide, what makes you think they should scoff at a potential new and untapped market so large. Maybe including entire segments of the world that are undeveloped and don't even use cell phones might make you feel better, but doesn't change market dynamics. Other companies are catching up quick and aren't artificially limiting themselves.
Apple could fully support both. But there is a reason why they don't. Its a sound business strategy to pick one and focus your finite resources inon making the best product in that category. This strategy is working great for Apple.
The reason they don't must be known to you and magic fairies. Apple is no longer a start up in the cell phone game. They are not a start up with limited resources or money. Claiming that you can just keep doing something until it fails is the worse kind of business planning. Many reviews for the GS note that the hardware is nothing new, the specs are finally coming up to not so far behind and the software was basically about adding what was missing from the iPhone compared to other smart phones (TBT GPS, MMS, copy/paste, etc.) Apple basically lucked into the app store since it clearly wasn't planned at the beginning but all their competitors will be there very soon.
The other point is that the competitors aren't just catching up but are moving at a much faster rate than one release a year. Palm has already had two updates. Their app store will be out in three months, not twelve. Palm Eon will be out in a couple months, not a couple years. The next version of the Storm will be out within a couple months and several other models have been upgraded as well.
Others are doing more with less in shorter time-frames. Apple has to respond.
GPS does come with the $30, you have the option of paying for another GPS product if you so choose.
Here is how I see the value break down, I pay $30 to get:
* push email that fully supports HTML5, reads Word/PDF/Excel/PowerPoint documents
* unlimited data with a web browser that is HTML5 compliant
* unlimited access to dozens of media services
* thousands of 3rd party apps designed by the best software developers in the industry
* google maps
Listing everything that comes with the data plan is ridiculous. It is like declaring that because you pay your electric bill, everything that plugs into a wall is a feature of that bill.
Add it up, consider the level of coverage and service and figure it out for yourself. I already gave you my personal example.
At least in my experience with the iPhone, I've found AT&T to be a lot more open than the industry norm. I would not consider their network condition to be tyranny just incompetence.
Everything is on the way out.
HDSPA has much more room to grow over the next few years and will naturally evolve into LTE. It has a longer future time line than EV-DO.
Apple is no longer a start up in the cell phone game. They are not a start up with limited resources or money. Claiming that you can just keep doing something until it fails is the worse kind of business planning. Many reviews for the GS note that the hardware is nothing new, the specs are finally coming up to not so far behind and the software was basically about adding what was missing from the iPhone compared to other smart phones (TBT GPS, MMS, copy/paste, etc.) Apple basically lucked into the app store since it clearly wasn't planned at the beginning but all their competitors will be there very soon.
Every company has limited resouces. Some companies have access to more resources than others.
The hardware for the iPhone has always been off the shelf parts. The software has always been the differentiator. At least until Apple uses it's own chips in the near future.
The App Store was always planned. Apple announced the SDK was coming a couple of months after the original iPhone was launched.
The other point is that the competitors aren't just catching up but are moving at a much faster rate than one release a year. Palm has already had two updates. Their app store will be out in three months, not twelve. Palm Eon will be out in a couple months, not a couple years. The next version of the Storm will be out within a couple months and several other models have been upgraded as well.
The Pre app store is already available. The SDK isn't publicly available.
For the past two and a half years people have been declaring the phone that will best the iPhone is about to come out soon.
Others are doing more with less in shorter time-frames. Apple has to respond.
I don't understand this logic, why does Apple have to compete with companies who are doing more with less?
Listing everything that comes with the data plan is ridiculous. It is like declaring that because you pay your electric bill, everything that plugs into a wall is a feature of that bill.
The iPhone is a purpose built platform. The electric plugs in my house are not. I'm not sure how you tie them together.