Well this question may be a repeat, but for some reason the search function isn't working for me so I will ask again. If you decide to do the hack that enables tethering on your iphone can AT&T find out.
So... you want to know if you steal from AT&T, will they be able to hold you financially responsible for the products you steal from them?
It's a contract. If you didn't like the terms, you shouldn't have signed on!
What exactly would he he stealing? If you pay for data, using that data is hardly stealing. It may be against the TOS, but it is over the top to call it stealing. But, then I am a bit old school and believe in net neutrality. It isn't as though you have a choice in providers for the iPhone. If the US had only a single ISP, I would disagree with them imposing restrictions, like only visiting approved sites.
To the OP, they could do deep packet inspection, but this is unlikely. If your usage goes up, they might isolate your acct for a closer look. If it is even remotely possible for them to determine that you are tethering, you have to weigh if getting caught and billed or cut off is worth it for you.
What exactly would he he stealing? If you pay for data, using that data is hardly stealing. It may be against the TOS, but it is over the top to call it stealing...
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
The TOS is the contract... per the contract you sign with ATT, you may not tether. Whether you like it or not, that's the contract. If you choose to do so anyway, you are taking something (data, bandwidth, whatever) that you already agreed does not belong to you.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this stuff?? Go ahead and do it if you want, I'll never know, and probably neither will ATT ... just don't pretend you're not stealing.
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
The TOS is the contract... per the contract you sign with ATT, you may not tether. Whether you like it or not, that's the contract. If you choose to do so anyway, you are taking something (data, bandwidth, whatever) that you already agreed does not belong to you.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this stuff?? Go ahead and do it if you want, I'll never know, and probably neither will ATT ... just don't pretend you're not stealing.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Certainly, you would be violating your TOS and therefore your contract. But, you have paid to access data on their network. That they have chosen to impose restrictions on how you may use it, is a contract stipulation, but choosing to use it in a way that violates the contract does not make it theft. You have paid for the access to the network. It makes you liable for penalties or termination of your service, but it is impossible to steal what you have paid for. Violating a contract does not equal theft. It means you have broken your contract. You are still paying for everything you are using, therefore it cannot be theft.
If your local water utility imposed a restriction that you could only water your lawn on Tuesdays, but that you could use as much as you wanted otherwise, and you paid in full for this service, does it make it theft if you water your lawn on Monday and pay the bill for the water used? Of course it doesn't. It does mean you have violated their contract and are subject to penalty. And just as you cannot opt for a different water provider, you cannot opt for a different iPhone provider, so the contract is simply a requirement for the service/product.
I don't believe Honda should be able to tell me how to use a car I have paid for, that Bell should be able to determine who I call nor that my ISP should restrict what activities I do online, with in the law.
Data is data. paid is paid. Violating a contract is not necessarily theft. If you have paid for data and stay within the allotment, then using that paid for data is not theft.
Amen. I planned/plan on tethering a lot. Still can't believe it wasn't their on day one. If I have to pay extra for it, I'll figure out how to get it for free any way possible. Plus their friggin' data plan is expensive. I'll use it but not as much as a lot of people probably. I wish they had a cheaper tier or a per-megabyte metering or something. AT&T is really stupid at this. They deserve everything they get. In a way, our community is fixing their product for free. They should be paying us! I'm still considering unlocking my phone and going Tmobile or someone else...it's very tempting with the new 3GS tool and the fact that you can just restore the phone...
It just stuns me how people will justify criminal activity simply because they "want" something. They'll sign contracts and then whine because they don't like what's in them.
What's the point of having laws at all if you have the "right" to pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't??
Sure, I'd love to tether my phone to my laptop for free... but that's subject to the agreement I signed with ATT.
Suppose ATT decided to start charging you extra for access to certain domains... Would you claim they couldn't do that because it was against the terms of the contract??... Or is breaking the terms of the contract only OK when YOU are doing it?
Like I said... I think tethering included at the current rate would be great. SMS/MMS messages are no more than data... I'd like to see them drop the extra charge for that as well.
But we wanted the iPhones bad enough that we agreed to these things... so you can live with it, or you can steal the services if you don't want to pay for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
Data is data. paid is paid. Violating a contract is not necessarily theft. If you have paid for data and stay within the allotment, then using that paid for data is not theft.
But tethered data used on your laptop is NOT data you've paid for (you signed a contract stating such... the "fine print" put restrictions on the term "unlimited".)... US contract law sees it as the equivalent of theft, regardless of what YOU call it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
I don't believe Honda should be able to tell me how to use a car I have paid for, that Bell should be able to determine who I call nor that my ISP should restrict what activities I do online, with in the law.
Honda doesn't make you sign a contract that limits how you drive... you merely buy the car and they understand that you do whatever you want with it.
Bell DOES utilize a usage contract (I assume, they're not my service provider.)... Don't they charge different rates for calling different locations. (Long-distance and International rates??? additional fees for caller ID, call waiting, call forwarding???)
Better check the fine print of the agreement you have with your ISP... most DO have restrictions on what you can do with your internet connection (for example: I'm not allowed to host a commercial web-site from my home ISP connection ... unless I pay additional charges for that use.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
And just as you cannot opt for a different water provider, you cannot opt for a different iPhone provider, so the contract is simply a requirement for the service/product.
If you don't like ATT's contract, then don't use ATT ... you CAN opt for a different cell-phone provider. Neither Apple or ATT cares if you jailbreak the phone... as long as you pay any early termination fees you may be subject to if you go that route.
Certainly, you would be violating your TOS and therefore your contract. But, you have paid to access data on their network. That they have chosen to impose restrictions on how you may use it, is a contract stipulation, but choosing to use it in a way that violates the contract does not make it theft. You have paid for the access to the network. It makes you liable for penalties or termination of your service, but it is impossible to steal what you have paid for. Violating a contract does not equal theft. It means you have broken your contract. You are still paying for everything you are using, therefore it cannot be theft.
But you didn't pay to tether your laptop to the network. You made a binding agreement that you would not use your network access in that way. And if you do so you open yourself to a lawsuit.
While violating a contract may not get you thrown in jail, it is still none the less illegal. Laws have been written that when parties have entered into an agreement (i.e. a contact) that that agreement is binding on both parties. And that the aggrieved party may take the violating party to court and seek redress. Depending on the laws and monetary values involved that could be substantial. The RIAA just got a $2.9 million settlement in another case where someone didn't think they were stealing.
But you didn't pay to tether your laptop to the network. You made a binding agreement that you would not use your network access in that way. And if you do so you open yourself to a lawsuit.
Yes. Exactly. And a lawsuit if civil, not criminal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresee
While violating a contract may not get you thrown in jail, it is still none the less illegal. Laws have been written that when parties have entered into an agreement (i.e. a contact) that that agreement is binding on both parties. And that the aggrieved party may take the violating party to court and seek redress. Depending on the laws and monetary values involved that could be substantial. The RIAA just got a $2.9 million settlement in another case where someone didn't think they were stealing.
The RIAA case was not based on contract law, but on copyright law. The people that have lost (most have simply settled) have been found guilty of copyright infringement. Certainly an argument could be made that they did steal, as copyrighted material is a good that can be transferred and therefore can be stolen.
I am not arguing whether tethering against the TOS is illegal, though it likely is not. It is certainly a violation of your contract with your provider and doing so will open you up to penalties within their agreements, such as fines or termination of the contract. This does not equate to theft.
When AT&T opened up and changed their TOS to deny video streaming (since retracted) did that make them guilty of theft? If it did, it was on a massive scale as they were then stealing from millions of subscribers. But, no it does not mean they stole. They reserve the right to change the TOS without notice. You have no similar right, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is, that tethering is a violation of a contract. That is it. That is not theft. It is a violation of a private contract by one of the parties, but not one where a good or service was taken without payment. The data used by tethering was fully paid for.
If your contract with your car company said you were not allowed to speed while driving the car, you then speeding does not mean you stole from them. You violated the contract, but hardly committed theft.
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
I replied to this post already, but this single sentence needs separate rebuttal. What exactly was taken? Data? You paid for the data. You took nothing that was not paid for. You violated the usage agreement, but is not theft in any practical way. Call me an anarchist, but I do not believe that my vendors should tell me how to use the goods and services I purchase from them.
They reserve the right to change the TOS without notice. You have no similar right, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is, that tethering is a violation of a contract.
And when they change the TOS they must inform you... and you then have the right to back out of the contract without penalty. Are you going to notify ATT that you will be tethering?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
...It is a violation of a private contract by one of the parties, but not one where a good or service was taken without payment. The data used by tethering was fully paid for.
You ARE taking a service without paying... the tethering data is NOT data that was fully paid for... per the contract.
Wrong is wrong whether a civil matter or criminal. You're just parsing words. My point is that people like you seem to have no sense of right and wrong anymore. Violating a contract is wrong. Just because it violates civil tort law rather than a criminal law doesn't make it any "less wrong".
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
And when they change the TOS they must inform you... and you then have the right to back out of the contract without penalty. Are you going to notify ATT that you will be tethering?
You ARE taking a service without paying... the tethering data is NOT data that was fully paid for... per the contract.
They may have to notify you, but I would verify if you can then cancel your service without penalty.
You are not taking anything. You are using data that you have paid for. It is simply how you are using it that is in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot
Wrong is wrong whether a civil matter or criminal. You're just parsing words. My point is that people like you seem to have no sense of right and wrong anymore. Violating a contract is wrong. Just because it violates civil tort law rather than a criminal law doesn't make it any "less wrong".
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
It isn't a matter of parsing words, but of using the right words. Simply throwing out random, incorrect words does you no good and does not validate your arguments. For instance, using the word theft incorrectly does not make it theft.
Tethering would not likely violate tort law, unless they could show they suffered some damages. Since you did not use any data that you did not pay for, damages would be difficult to prove. It would be a violation of a contract and so would fall under contract law. The terms of the contract would spell out the penalties, which would likely be limited to suspension or termination of the service.
Please try not to put words into my mouth. Violating a private contract may be wrong, but it is hardly illegal and definitely not theft. Breaking a contract simply breaks the contract. It may mean it is no longer valid. It may specify penalties. Violating a private contract is NOT the same as violating the law, criminal or civil or copyright. One does not exclude the other, but one does not equate to the other by necessity either.
Madoff was a thief. Theft is theft. Violating terms of service is not. If you break your contract or violate the TOS, be prepared to pay the price and suffer the consequences. I never argued that violating your contract was right or wrong. Just that it is not theft, as much as you may want it to be.
I do disagree with AT&T imposing such a draconian restriction on their users, mainly from an ethical point of view. I do think it is wrong for corporations to determine how you can use their goods and services, but that is the twisted world we live in. I am not a corporate nuthugger that says "thank you" when they tell me to bend over. Some people will simply bend over. Others will actually argue that it is wrong not to do so.
What is right and what is wrong? Wrong is advertising unlimited data and then placing limits on it. Wrong is a corporation telling you how to behave. Wrong is defending unreasonable restrictions on usage.
Don't like the terms, take your business elsewhere and buy the iPhone and service from a competitor. Oh, wait.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ... well, apparently it's the honest, upstanding, morally correct thing to do.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ... well, apparently it's the honest, upstanding, morally correct thing to do.
I guess if your argument makes no sense, you start to just make up things to argue against. repeatedly. To finish your last sentence:
Quote:
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ...
...a violation of the terms but not theft. Because you paid. Already. In full. But used it in a way they decided you ought not to.
I have never advocated that you or the OP or anyone else tether and break their TOS. Just that it was ridiculous to claim that this is theft. It may be wrong, but it is not theft.
Let's all play your game: So, you are saying that whatever terms a corporation decides to place on your usage, whether they are unethical or go against principles of fair use are okeedokey and that violating these terms makes you a felon. Actually, I guess this is not playing your 'let's make things up game" as I think this is actually what you believe.
You have a warped sense of what is criminal and what is not. You seem to want whatever you disagree with to be illegal and call contract violations theft. You are a RIAA, AT&T, P&G, MPAA wet dream. It is sort of weak to unquestioningly accept what AT&T tells you is right and wrong. Corporate actions are often not a good source for a Moral compass.
You are coming very close to ad hom attacks. Ironically, by your definition, you are now a thief, as you have now violating the TOS of this site, and your logic equates this to theft. You are using the service provided but are violating the TOS. As such, you ought to report yourself and resign your account on AI. You are morally upstanding enough to back up your own silly logic, no? I don't really expect you to stick to your guns on this.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
All Tulkas EVER said was that it is not theft. He's not saying that it's moral to do it, or that it's okay, or trying to justify someone else's actions. His only point is that it is not a criminal act. You seem to be arguing with someone who is trying to justify their violation of the TOS, but there's nobody in this thread doing that. I have no idea how you can't tell this from reading what he's saying.
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see it being a criminal violation unless your usage caused damage to their network (through extremely high data usage, maybe, or by causing the network to be unavailable to other users). Civil violations, which may or may not be wrong, are not illegal by the definition of the word..
I'll agree that the term "theft" by strict definition, does not fit the circumstances.
I will not agree that it is "OK" to access the network contrary to the terms of an agreement.
The point I was trying to make was not that it was a criminal offense worthy of the death penalty. I am just continually amazed that people seem to have no sense of right or wrong anymore.
The OP clearly understands that his contract does not allow tethering... that data used on his laptop is not included in the "unlimited" data he is paying for. Nevertheless, he wants to maintain his current contract, but use it in ways he has already agreed not to.
He's not stealing a physical object, nor even intellectual property, but he has expressed a desire to use ATT's network in a way that he admits is contrary to his agreed upon contract. He KNOWS he should pay an additional fee (whatever they decide that will be) but he'd rather take their "product" without paying for it.
And he doesn't even think he's doing anything wrong!
Criminal?... No, not by law. Wrong?... how can anyone say otherwise?
I would still argue "theft of services" is an accurate assessment of his plans, whether or not a lawyer would agree to that terminology or whether such theft is considered "criminal" by law.
My apologies for possibly confusing Tulkas' posts as being from the OP... As the kids say: "my bad".
The RIAA and MPAA would call ripping a CD or DVD to your hard drive for personal use stealing. Are they right? After all, you bought a piece of plastic with a license to play the contents on specific players. If you want to play them on other types of players such as MP3 players and portable computers, you have to buy a different license. Yes, you paid for it. Yes, viewed in a certain light, it is stealing.
I believe it is the entertainment cartels that have no sense of right and wrong.
I have enable tethering on my iPhone without conscience. I did pay for the data. In fact, I paid for unlimited data. I pay extra for the plan just because it is an iPhone. To me, tethering my iPhone is just using a bigger screen to access the same, unlimited data. There are times when I need a bigger screen for the web. AT&T does not want me to use the unlimited data I pay for. Then again, they do not want me using MMS or any other advanced feature on their network. They think they are doing us a favor by letting us make calls. I cannot take their idea of right and wrong any more seriously than that of a mob boss. Sure, they have the right to interrupt my service. That does not mean that I am doing anything immoral. It is not even clear if it is illegal. Ultimately, it has to be sorted out in the courts. Remember, there was a time when the cotton industry thought it was perfectly alright to own people. What is legal and contractual is not a measure of what is right.
It just stuns me how people will justify criminal activity simply because they "want" something. They'll sign contracts and then whine because they don't like what's in them.
What's the point of having laws at all if you have the "right" to pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't??
Sure, I'd love to tether my phone to my laptop for free... but that's subject to the agreement I signed with ATT.
Suppose ATT decided to start charging you extra for access to certain domains... Would you claim they couldn't do that because it was against the terms of the contract??... Or is breaking the terms of the contract only OK when YOU are doing it?
Like I said... I think tethering included at the current rate would be great. SMS/MMS messages are no more than data... I'd like to see them drop the extra charge for that as well.
But we wanted the iPhones bad enough that we agreed to these things... so you can live with it, or you can steal the services if you don't want to pay for them.
But tethered data used on your laptop is NOT data you've paid for (you signed a contract stating such... the "fine print" put restrictions on the term "unlimited".)... US contract law sees it as the equivalent of theft, regardless of what YOU call it.
Honda doesn't make you sign a contract that limits how you drive... you merely buy the car and they understand that you do whatever you want with it.
Bell DOES utilize a usage contract (I assume, they're not my service provider.)... Don't they charge different rates for calling different locations. (Long-distance and International rates??? additional fees for caller ID, call waiting, call forwarding???)
Better check the fine print of the agreement you have with your ISP... most DO have restrictions on what you can do with your internet connection (for example: I'm not allowed to host a commercial web-site from my home ISP connection ... unless I pay additional charges for that use.)
If you don't like ATT's contract, then don't use ATT ... you CAN opt for a different cell-phone provider. Neither Apple or ATT cares if you jailbreak the phone... as long as you pay any early termination fees you may be subject to if you go that route.
First of all, DAD, may I call you that cause that is what you are acting like a parent. I just wanted to know if I decided to lie, cheat, or steal just to tether my iphone to my laptop will AT&T find out? I don't need the lectures I'm fully aware of penalties and we as Iphone users aren't the first and won't be the last to illegally tether their phone to our laptop. If you go over to ppcgeeks.com, which is a winmo community, they are doing it on every carrier out there. So i don't need your jesus preach right from wrong crap.
As for my question I asked from the beginning thanks to everyone who answered.
P.S. KingOfSomewhereHot i never once complained about AT&T's service if I wanted to complain I would have never left Verizon and paid ETF's for two lines just to get the 3GS. I am and was fully aware of AT&T and their shortcomings as a Second place service provider before I switched so spare all of us and post somewhere else.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say what Bush and his administration did isn't wrong either? The reason while several of my friends are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for no particular reason at all. Oh maybe you are going to say it's because of 9/11, yeah you seem like one of those guys. You need to investigate at some of the events that took place before 9/11 went down that would make you question who all benefited from the towers being destroyed. There turned out to be a big pay-day for a bunch of people that were put into the right places at the right time before it all happened. The media never said anything about that though.
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say what Bush and his administration did isn't wrong either? The reason while several of my friends are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for no particular reason at all. Oh maybe you are going to say it's because of 9/11, yeah you seem like one of those guys. You need to investigate at some of the events that took place before 9/11 went down that would make you question who all benefited from the towers being destroyed. There turned out to be a big pay-day for a bunch of people that were put into the right places at the right time before it all happened. The media never said anything about that though.
And there's a hanger with an alien spacecraft in it out in the New Mexico desert.
Again... the whole idea of crime and punishment got carried away here... I'm still amazed at the general lack of moral conviction to be found these days.
Sign a contract... abide by the terms of that contract. Whether or not you like the terms, you did agree to them. ... Son.
I am just continually amazed that people seem to have no sense of right or wrong anymore.
You ought to live in the past. It was awesome, you could keep slaves and it was not against the law or wrong in any way. In those good old days, people had a much keener sense of right and wrong.
Furthermore, if someone tried to charge you $30 for something you already paid for, you were entitled to shoot them.
Comments
It's a contract. If you didn't like the terms, you shouldn't have signed on!
So... you want to know if you steal from AT&T, will they be able to hold you financially responsible for the products you steal from them?
It's a contract. If you didn't like the terms, you shouldn't have signed on!
What exactly would he he stealing? If you pay for data, using that data is hardly stealing. It may be against the TOS, but it is over the top to call it stealing. But, then I am a bit old school and believe in net neutrality. It isn't as though you have a choice in providers for the iPhone. If the US had only a single ISP, I would disagree with them imposing restrictions, like only visiting approved sites.
To the OP, they could do deep packet inspection, but this is unlikely. If your usage goes up, they might isolate your acct for a closer look. If it is even remotely possible for them to determine that you are tethering, you have to weigh if getting caught and billed or cut off is worth it for you.
What exactly would he he stealing? If you pay for data, using that data is hardly stealing. It may be against the TOS, but it is over the top to call it stealing...
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
The TOS is the contract... per the contract you sign with ATT, you may not tether. Whether you like it or not, that's the contract. If you choose to do so anyway, you are taking something (data, bandwidth, whatever) that you already agreed does not belong to you.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this stuff?? Go ahead and do it if you want, I'll never know, and probably neither will ATT ... just don't pretend you're not stealing.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
The TOS is the contract... per the contract you sign with ATT, you may not tether. Whether you like it or not, that's the contract. If you choose to do so anyway, you are taking something (data, bandwidth, whatever) that you already agreed does not belong to you.
Why is it so hard for people to understand this stuff?? Go ahead and do it if you want, I'll never know, and probably neither will ATT ... just don't pretend you're not stealing.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Certainly, you would be violating your TOS and therefore your contract. But, you have paid to access data on their network. That they have chosen to impose restrictions on how you may use it, is a contract stipulation, but choosing to use it in a way that violates the contract does not make it theft. You have paid for the access to the network. It makes you liable for penalties or termination of your service, but it is impossible to steal what you have paid for. Violating a contract does not equal theft. It means you have broken your contract. You are still paying for everything you are using, therefore it cannot be theft.
If your local water utility imposed a restriction that you could only water your lawn on Tuesdays, but that you could use as much as you wanted otherwise, and you paid in full for this service, does it make it theft if you water your lawn on Monday and pay the bill for the water used? Of course it doesn't. It does mean you have violated their contract and are subject to penalty. And just as you cannot opt for a different water provider, you cannot opt for a different iPhone provider, so the contract is simply a requirement for the service/product.
I don't believe Honda should be able to tell me how to use a car I have paid for, that Bell should be able to determine who I call nor that my ISP should restrict what activities I do online, with in the law.
Data is data. paid is paid. Violating a contract is not necessarily theft. If you have paid for data and stay within the allotment, then using that paid for data is not theft.
What's the point of having laws at all if you have the "right" to pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't??
Sure, I'd love to tether my phone to my laptop for free... but that's subject to the agreement I signed with ATT.
Suppose ATT decided to start charging you extra for access to certain domains... Would you claim they couldn't do that because it was against the terms of the contract??... Or is breaking the terms of the contract only OK when YOU are doing it?
Like I said... I think tethering included at the current rate would be great. SMS/MMS messages are no more than data... I'd like to see them drop the extra charge for that as well.
But we wanted the iPhones bad enough that we agreed to these things... so you can live with it, or you can steal the services if you don't want to pay for them.
Data is data. paid is paid. Violating a contract is not necessarily theft. If you have paid for data and stay within the allotment, then using that paid for data is not theft.
But tethered data used on your laptop is NOT data you've paid for (you signed a contract stating such... the "fine print" put restrictions on the term "unlimited".)... US contract law sees it as the equivalent of theft, regardless of what YOU call it.
I don't believe Honda should be able to tell me how to use a car I have paid for, that Bell should be able to determine who I call nor that my ISP should restrict what activities I do online, with in the law.
Honda doesn't make you sign a contract that limits how you drive... you merely buy the car and they understand that you do whatever you want with it.
Bell DOES utilize a usage contract (I assume, they're not my service provider.)... Don't they charge different rates for calling different locations. (Long-distance and International rates??? additional fees for caller ID, call waiting, call forwarding???)
Better check the fine print of the agreement you have with your ISP... most DO have restrictions on what you can do with your internet connection (for example: I'm not allowed to host a commercial web-site from my home ISP connection ... unless I pay additional charges for that use.)
And just as you cannot opt for a different water provider, you cannot opt for a different iPhone provider, so the contract is simply a requirement for the service/product.
If you don't like ATT's contract, then don't use ATT ... you CAN opt for a different cell-phone provider. Neither Apple or ATT cares if you jailbreak the phone... as long as you pay any early termination fees you may be subject to if you go that route.
Certainly, you would be violating your TOS and therefore your contract. But, you have paid to access data on their network. That they have chosen to impose restrictions on how you may use it, is a contract stipulation, but choosing to use it in a way that violates the contract does not make it theft. You have paid for the access to the network. It makes you liable for penalties or termination of your service, but it is impossible to steal what you have paid for. Violating a contract does not equal theft. It means you have broken your contract. You are still paying for everything you are using, therefore it cannot be theft.
But you didn't pay to tether your laptop to the network. You made a binding agreement that you would not use your network access in that way. And if you do so you open yourself to a lawsuit.
While violating a contract may not get you thrown in jail, it is still none the less illegal. Laws have been written that when parties have entered into an agreement (i.e. a contact) that that agreement is binding on both parties. And that the aggrieved party may take the violating party to court and seek redress. Depending on the laws and monetary values involved that could be substantial. The RIAA just got a $2.9 million settlement in another case where someone didn't think they were stealing.
But you didn't pay to tether your laptop to the network. You made a binding agreement that you would not use your network access in that way. And if you do so you open yourself to a lawsuit.
Yes. Exactly. And a lawsuit if civil, not criminal.
While violating a contract may not get you thrown in jail, it is still none the less illegal. Laws have been written that when parties have entered into an agreement (i.e. a contact) that that agreement is binding on both parties. And that the aggrieved party may take the violating party to court and seek redress. Depending on the laws and monetary values involved that could be substantial. The RIAA just got a $2.9 million settlement in another case where someone didn't think they were stealing.
The RIAA case was not based on contract law, but on copyright law. The people that have lost (most have simply settled) have been found guilty of copyright infringement. Certainly an argument could be made that they did steal, as copyrighted material is a good that can be transferred and therefore can be stolen.
I am not arguing whether tethering against the TOS is illegal, though it likely is not. It is certainly a violation of your contract with your provider and doing so will open you up to penalties within their agreements, such as fines or termination of the contract. This does not equate to theft.
When AT&T opened up and changed their TOS to deny video streaming (since retracted) did that make them guilty of theft? If it did, it was on a massive scale as they were then stealing from millions of subscribers. But, no it does not mean they stole. They reserve the right to change the TOS without notice. You have no similar right, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is, that tethering is a violation of a contract. That is it. That is not theft. It is a violation of a private contract by one of the parties, but not one where a good or service was taken without payment. The data used by tethering was fully paid for.
If your contract with your car company said you were not allowed to speed while driving the car, you then speeding does not mean you stole from them. You violated the contract, but hardly committed theft.
Taking something (that belongs to someone else) that you have no right to ... is pretty much stealing.
I replied to this post already, but this single sentence needs separate rebuttal. What exactly was taken? Data? You paid for the data. You took nothing that was not paid for. You violated the usage agreement, but is not theft in any practical way. Call me an anarchist, but I do not believe that my vendors should tell me how to use the goods and services I purchase from them.
They reserve the right to change the TOS without notice. You have no similar right, but that doesn't really matter. The fact is, that tethering is a violation of a contract.
And when they change the TOS they must inform you... and you then have the right to back out of the contract without penalty. Are you going to notify ATT that you will be tethering?
...It is a violation of a private contract by one of the parties, but not one where a good or service was taken without payment. The data used by tethering was fully paid for.
You ARE taking a service without paying... the tethering data is NOT data that was fully paid for... per the contract.
Wrong is wrong whether a civil matter or criminal. You're just parsing words. My point is that people like you seem to have no sense of right and wrong anymore. Violating a contract is wrong. Just because it violates civil tort law rather than a criminal law doesn't make it any "less wrong".
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
And when they change the TOS they must inform you... and you then have the right to back out of the contract without penalty. Are you going to notify ATT that you will be tethering?
You ARE taking a service without paying... the tethering data is NOT data that was fully paid for... per the contract.
They may have to notify you, but I would verify if you can then cancel your service without penalty.
You are not taking anything. You are using data that you have paid for. It is simply how you are using it that is in question.
Wrong is wrong whether a civil matter or criminal. You're just parsing words. My point is that people like you seem to have no sense of right and wrong anymore. Violating a contract is wrong. Just because it violates civil tort law rather than a criminal law doesn't make it any "less wrong".
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
It isn't a matter of parsing words, but of using the right words. Simply throwing out random, incorrect words does you no good and does not validate your arguments. For instance, using the word theft incorrectly does not make it theft.
Tethering would not likely violate tort law, unless they could show they suffered some damages. Since you did not use any data that you did not pay for, damages would be difficult to prove. It would be a violation of a contract and so would fall under contract law. The terms of the contract would spell out the penalties, which would likely be limited to suspension or termination of the service.
Please try not to put words into my mouth. Violating a private contract may be wrong, but it is hardly illegal and definitely not theft. Breaking a contract simply breaks the contract. It may mean it is no longer valid. It may specify penalties. Violating a private contract is NOT the same as violating the law, criminal or civil or copyright. One does not exclude the other, but one does not equate to the other by necessity either.
Madoff was a thief. Theft is theft. Violating terms of service is not. If you break your contract or violate the TOS, be prepared to pay the price and suffer the consequences. I never argued that violating your contract was right or wrong. Just that it is not theft, as much as you may want it to be.
I do disagree with AT&T imposing such a draconian restriction on their users, mainly from an ethical point of view. I do think it is wrong for corporations to determine how you can use their goods and services, but that is the twisted world we live in. I am not a corporate nuthugger that says "thank you" when they tell me to bend over. Some people will simply bend over. Others will actually argue that it is wrong not to do so.
What is right and what is wrong? Wrong is advertising unlimited data and then placing limits on it. Wrong is a corporation telling you how to behave. Wrong is defending unreasonable restrictions on usage.
Don't like the terms, take your business elsewhere and buy the iPhone and service from a competitor. Oh, wait.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ... well, apparently it's the honest, upstanding, morally correct thing to do.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ... well, apparently it's the honest, upstanding, morally correct thing to do.
I guess if your argument makes no sense, you start to just make up things to argue against. repeatedly. To finish your last sentence:
If you don't like the contract terms, then quit using the service. Willfully doing something specifically prohibited by the contract YOU AGREED TO, but continuing to use the service is ...
...a violation of the terms but not theft. Because you paid. Already. In full. But used it in a way they decided you ought not to.
I have never advocated that you or the OP or anyone else tether and break their TOS. Just that it was ridiculous to claim that this is theft. It may be wrong, but it is not theft.
Let's all play your game: So, you are saying that whatever terms a corporation decides to place on your usage, whether they are unethical or go against principles of fair use are okeedokey and that violating these terms makes you a felon. Actually, I guess this is not playing your 'let's make things up game" as I think this is actually what you believe.
You have a warped sense of what is criminal and what is not. You seem to want whatever you disagree with to be illegal and call contract violations theft. You are a RIAA, AT&T, P&G, MPAA wet dream. It is sort of weak to unquestioningly accept what AT&T tells you is right and wrong. Corporate actions are often not a good source for a Moral compass.
You are coming very close to ad hom attacks. Ironically, by your definition, you are now a thief, as you have now violating the TOS of this site, and your logic equates this to theft. You are using the service provided but are violating the TOS. As such, you ought to report yourself and resign your account on AI. You are morally upstanding enough to back up your own silly logic, no? I don't really expect you to stick to your guns on this.
Now I see... right is whatever YOU want, wrong is anything someone ELSE does that you DON'T like.
All Tulkas EVER said was that it is not theft. He's not saying that it's moral to do it, or that it's okay, or trying to justify someone else's actions. His only point is that it is not a criminal act. You seem to be arguing with someone who is trying to justify their violation of the TOS, but there's nobody in this thread doing that. I have no idea how you can't tell this from reading what he's saying.
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see it being a criminal violation unless your usage caused damage to their network (through extremely high data usage, maybe, or by causing the network to be unavailable to other users). Civil violations, which may or may not be wrong, are not illegal by the definition of the word..
I will not agree that it is "OK" to access the network contrary to the terms of an agreement.
The point I was trying to make was not that it was a criminal offense worthy of the death penalty. I am just continually amazed that people seem to have no sense of right or wrong anymore.
The OP clearly understands that his contract does not allow tethering... that data used on his laptop is not included in the "unlimited" data he is paying for. Nevertheless, he wants to maintain his current contract, but use it in ways he has already agreed not to.
He's not stealing a physical object, nor even intellectual property, but he has expressed a desire to use ATT's network in a way that he admits is contrary to his agreed upon contract. He KNOWS he should pay an additional fee (whatever they decide that will be) but he'd rather take their "product" without paying for it.
And he doesn't even think he's doing anything wrong!
Criminal?... No, not by law. Wrong?... how can anyone say otherwise?
I would still argue "theft of services" is an accurate assessment of his plans, whether or not a lawyer would agree to that terminology or whether such theft is considered "criminal" by law.
My apologies for possibly confusing Tulkas' posts as being from the OP... As the kids say: "my bad".
The RIAA and MPAA would call ripping a CD or DVD to your hard drive for personal use stealing. Are they right? After all, you bought a piece of plastic with a license to play the contents on specific players. If you want to play them on other types of players such as MP3 players and portable computers, you have to buy a different license. Yes, you paid for it. Yes, viewed in a certain light, it is stealing.
I believe it is the entertainment cartels that have no sense of right and wrong.
I have enable tethering on my iPhone without conscience. I did pay for the data. In fact, I paid for unlimited data. I pay extra for the plan just because it is an iPhone. To me, tethering my iPhone is just using a bigger screen to access the same, unlimited data. There are times when I need a bigger screen for the web. AT&T does not want me to use the unlimited data I pay for. Then again, they do not want me using MMS or any other advanced feature on their network. They think they are doing us a favor by letting us make calls. I cannot take their idea of right and wrong any more seriously than that of a mob boss. Sure, they have the right to interrupt my service. That does not mean that I am doing anything immoral. It is not even clear if it is illegal. Ultimately, it has to be sorted out in the courts. Remember, there was a time when the cotton industry thought it was perfectly alright to own people. What is legal and contractual is not a measure of what is right.
It just stuns me how people will justify criminal activity simply because they "want" something. They'll sign contracts and then whine because they don't like what's in them.
What's the point of having laws at all if you have the "right" to pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't??
Sure, I'd love to tether my phone to my laptop for free... but that's subject to the agreement I signed with ATT.
Suppose ATT decided to start charging you extra for access to certain domains... Would you claim they couldn't do that because it was against the terms of the contract??... Or is breaking the terms of the contract only OK when YOU are doing it?
Like I said... I think tethering included at the current rate would be great. SMS/MMS messages are no more than data... I'd like to see them drop the extra charge for that as well.
But we wanted the iPhones bad enough that we agreed to these things... so you can live with it, or you can steal the services if you don't want to pay for them.
But tethered data used on your laptop is NOT data you've paid for (you signed a contract stating such... the "fine print" put restrictions on the term "unlimited".)... US contract law sees it as the equivalent of theft, regardless of what YOU call it.
Honda doesn't make you sign a contract that limits how you drive... you merely buy the car and they understand that you do whatever you want with it.
Bell DOES utilize a usage contract (I assume, they're not my service provider.)... Don't they charge different rates for calling different locations. (Long-distance and International rates??? additional fees for caller ID, call waiting, call forwarding???)
Better check the fine print of the agreement you have with your ISP... most DO have restrictions on what you can do with your internet connection (for example: I'm not allowed to host a commercial web-site from my home ISP connection ... unless I pay additional charges for that use.)
If you don't like ATT's contract, then don't use ATT ... you CAN opt for a different cell-phone provider. Neither Apple or ATT cares if you jailbreak the phone... as long as you pay any early termination fees you may be subject to if you go that route.
First of all, DAD, may I call you that cause that is what you are acting like a parent. I just wanted to know if I decided to lie, cheat, or steal just to tether my iphone to my laptop will AT&T find out? I don't need the lectures I'm fully aware of penalties and we as Iphone users aren't the first and won't be the last to illegally tether their phone to our laptop. If you go over to ppcgeeks.com, which is a winmo community, they are doing it on every carrier out there. So i don't need your jesus preach right from wrong crap.
As for my question I asked from the beginning thanks to everyone who answered.
P.S. KingOfSomewhereHot i never once complained about AT&T's service if I wanted to complain I would have never left Verizon and paid ETF's for two lines just to get the 3GS. I am and was fully aware of AT&T and their shortcomings as a Second place service provider before I switched so spare all of us and post somewhere else.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you think Ponzi, Madhoff, et al did nothing wrong either?
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say what Bush and his administration did isn't wrong either? The reason while several of my friends are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for no particular reason at all. Oh maybe you are going to say it's because of 9/11, yeah you seem like one of those guys. You need to investigate at some of the events that took place before 9/11 went down that would make you question who all benefited from the towers being destroyed. There turned out to be a big pay-day for a bunch of people that were put into the right places at the right time before it all happened. The media never said anything about that though.
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say what Bush and his administration did isn't wrong either? The reason while several of my friends are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for no particular reason at all. Oh maybe you are going to say it's because of 9/11, yeah you seem like one of those guys. You need to investigate at some of the events that took place before 9/11 went down that would make you question who all benefited from the towers being destroyed. There turned out to be a big pay-day for a bunch of people that were put into the right places at the right time before it all happened. The media never said anything about that though.
And there's a hanger with an alien spacecraft in it out in the New Mexico desert.
Again... the whole idea of crime and punishment got carried away here... I'm still amazed at the general lack of moral conviction to be found these days.
Sign a contract... abide by the terms of that contract. Whether or not you like the terms, you did agree to them. ... Son.
I am just continually amazed that people seem to have no sense of right or wrong anymore.
You ought to live in the past. It was awesome, you could keep slaves and it was not against the law or wrong in any way. In those good old days, people had a much keener sense of right and wrong.
Furthermore, if someone tried to charge you $30 for something you already paid for, you were entitled to shoot them.
With a cannon.
C.