So this wonderful, revolutionary phone that is the first I've owned where I've had not a single problem, dropped call or wanted to throw at a wall is wrecking the industry?
Sounds like Craig Moffett is a big baby that needs mommy to give his biddy back before he throws a tantrum.
Quite. As usual it is a matter of perception. And very often that perception inexplicably falls into a well worn pattern of supporting the status quo. The media report that workers strike for more money - higher pay - for instance. And often the public get pissed off with the strikers because they themselves are affected in one way or the other. Rarely does the media portray the strikers as striking for a decent living wage. The assumption usually is that the workers are greedy, not the paymasters. I am not saying the workers are always right but it always strikes me that the reporting automatically tends to slanted in support of the status quo.
So is it Apple wrecking the phone industry or is the industry wrecking itself? Did file sharing and Apple destroy the music industry or did the music industry run itself in to the ground (as much as this really is the case)?
Hello!? This analyst is at least a couple of years behind: There were literally dozens of AI posters who said exactly the same thing when iPhone 2G came out in June 2007.
i wouldn't be so quick to say that. it is possible that the next iphone will be one that has the tech to open up to more networks, and LTE might be the new standard at that point. who knows.
Being a ?standard? and being implemented are two very different things. First of all, Verizon can?t just flip a switch. Secondly, this needs to be tested and planned so it?s not going to magically be in place in under a year for the entire country. Then you have to consider that when LTE is well saturated there will still Verizon?s CDMA and CDMA2000 networks, which the iPhone doesn?t support. Let?s assume that the next iPhone supports GSM, CDMA, WCDMA, CDMA2000 and LTE all on the same chip. Who makes this chip? When will Apple get this chip to test? How much will it be? How large will it be? How power hungry will it be?
Even more pressing is the fact the normal radio development has not yet occurred for LTE. There are no LTE USB or EC/34 cards for notebooks that I?ve read about. These are products that are not constrained in the same way by size and power usage like thin mobile phones. Where is are the other mobile vendors using or announcing their future use of these products? If you?ve read something please post a link.
Finally, LTE is not the next step, faster WCDMA is. We now only have 7.2Mbps downlink and 384Kbps uplink on the iPhone. We still don?t have HSUPA in the iPhone despite my notebook USB card having a 14.4Mbps and 2Mbps HSUPA for about 2 years now. Then there is even faster HSUPA and then Evolved HSPA which no carrier can yet support. Verizon?s bolstering of supporting LTE and the mention of the iPhone was just a clever vapornet ruse to stop potential deserters from jumping to AT&T for the iPhone.
It is important to keep in mind that the initial 3G tech that ATT uses called WCDMA/UMTS has been designed for widespread use of data on a sustained basis. It is essentially Wide Band CDMA that uses asynch tech. Voice and data packets travel over the same 5 MHZ channel. Voice has time sensitive QoS, while data can lag but maintain integrity. The problem is where there are too many data users, there is not enough room for voice transmission and voice calls drop. Furthermore, the size of the WCDMA coverage per tower shrinks as usage increases... so users at the edge can experienced dropped calls often. Power consumption control is also difficult.
The Verizon networks uses a more "primitive" tech called CDMA 2000 or 1X and EVDO. Basically the narrow band tech uses 1.25 MHz channel primarily for voice and is called 1X... it can also transmit data. However, the bulk of the data is transmitted over a separate data only EVDO 1.25 MHz channel. So voice and data do not interfere. Then there are frequency used issues as well.
The CDMA2000 tech is essentially controlled by an American company called QCOM. The WCDMA was pushed by the EU in an effort to take control of the tech from QCOM and dilute their influence and royalties. Again, it was not data friendly in practice.. new variations called HSPDA, will improve data performance. It will take a lot of money. Not sure of ATT will kick in the money.
However, ATT was the best way for Apple to max out its investment in the iPhone, since VZ did not want to play ball by Apple's rules.
Thanks for explaining the differences and pointing out that there is still a long way to go from an investment point of view to get this right.
"At times, though, it also has the caustic effect of suggesting an conspiracy at the carrier to limit useful services, such as voice over IP calls, when cost or technical reasons are the real motivators."
Hmmm, so that's why the rest of the world has MMS and Tethering? In Hong Kong we have tethering for free too!
Cell phone companies brought this on themselves with all these complicated, long contracts that are barely-legal scams, prices that change from invoice to invoice, and shoddy, crappy customer service. The CEOs of these badly-run companies are making hundreds of millions of dollars. They can never sell enough services to pay their overpaid lazy executives and so they force all kinds of charges and fees on their customers. On top of all this, we find out they've also been feeding our private conversations directly to the US Government spy agencies.
I wish we could go back to the days when there was real competition among phone companies, and with 2 phone calls you could cancel your current carrier and move to a new one with no stupid "cancellation" fees, which are purely meant to stifle competition in the marketplace. Since then, the cost of mobile plans has skyrocketed while service has decreased.
AT&T and others got themselves into this mess, and, like the RIAA, it appears they plan to just keep doing the same bullshit instead of innovating and improving their service. Eventually they will make themselves obsolete unless they adapt and change to meet the demands of the 21st Century.
1. Apple needs to lower the costs of its plans to make people happy and get more customers.
2. AT&T needs to be prepared technically for any new business venture they join.
Apple and AT&T need to learn some lessons and let's hope they will.
I thought I paid my monthly bill and plan costs to AT&T, not Apple.
I love how people (pertaining to the iPhone) call it the "Apple tax" when once I walk out the door with the phone, Apple no longer gets my money (apart from the iTunes store, of course).
If Apple has wrecked the cell phone business then they have done so by doing what the cell phone industry refuses to do ..... listen to it's customers. Let the wrecking continue !
with no media phones at all.. isn't change just awful.. gosh, here we had an industry sitting on its arse with a bunch of the most useless innovations called cell phones for years.. and when something comes along that makes EVERYTHING else obsolete in a heart beat..
this analzit gets upset and whines to.. to who?..
Just who or what should change the industry if it isn't innovation? The analzit who wakes up one day out of touch as this guy obviously is.. or the consumer and feature phone innovators on or created new demand?
As for ATT.. the last time i looked their dividend was around 9%.. Now, if they can afford to finance their own innovations (keeping up with the hardware) and pay that dividend do you think this analzit has anything really important to say?
Well, a recognition party might be a good idea.. to affirm that innovative change RULES!!
What he is whining about is that more innovation or features for less $... more for less more for less... that is how consumer electronics companies thrive.. Dick Schultz didn't invent Best Buy before the industry filled up the big box stores he started.. He was forward looking and embraced the changes going on around him.. If ATT can't keep up someone else will step in.. and Apple will expand to more distribution.. it is natural selection at its best..
What he is speaking about is simply out of touch with retail.. or consumer electronics.. or looking forward instead of backwards.. Since when should the consumer want to pay more for more? or less for less? The idea is that the consumer will migrate to more features for the same.. (and bitch bitch bitch) or ideally to more features for less.. and then still bitch bitch bitch..
The consumer rules!
What these statements really mean is that change has so dramatically obstructed how this fellow sees things.. that he has nothing left to do but to get out of the way.. since he has just not been able to see what the future is - he has not been able to keep up.. Just how would he have managed the change of the past three years i wonder? Would ATT invent the Iphone instead of Apple.. would that have made him happy.. like would the record companies invent the ipod instead of Apple? .. and now he is stuck in the past calling "what is" counter productive or destructive rather than rational and logical.. After all is said .. Apple didn't talk anyone into anything they didn't want to do.. ATT took a chance and a bite out of the Apple... Anyone who says that has been detrimental to their bottom line is simply.. OUT OF TOUCH ..
Another year and I'll be with the iPhone pack. When Steve introduces the next generation iPhone (iPhone 4GL?) at next year's WWDC to work on Verizon's LTE network coming in the second half of 2010, I'm in. I actually hate both Verizon and AT&T, but Verizon is definitely the lesser of two evils.
att is rolling out its new network and a lot of its 3g is also being updated to 800MHz frequency range. VZW is too, this is gonna change the whole scene. as both are higher frequencies now, and ATT being higher than VZW for the most part.
Put ATT and VZW all at sub 1 GHz, I guarantee, you will see coverage like never before on both networks, particularly inside buildings and such.
AT&T and all of the other cellular providers imagine an Internet with a toll booth at every entry point, on every device, and at every node or junction. Consumers want an internet with unlimited everything, one monthly charge per customer (not per device), no mention of terms like: Contracts, Kilobytes, Roaming Charges, Cancellation Charges, etc.
They have these things (less the roaming. be realistic here) they are called European operators. I have an all you can eat data plan. PERIOD. All data, all the time...?15 a month. 3.2 kb/s with a phone, and 7.2 kb/s if you buy a data modem from the operator. American carriers are screwing over their own base.
Now that Verizon will allow all of its phones to have WiFi, that brings it one step closer to agreement with Apple. But they are still far apart on other agreements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak
When Steve introduces the next generation iPhone (iPhone 4GL?) at next year's WWDC to work on Verizon's LTE network coming in the second half of 2010, I'm in.
The MMS Apple is using on the iPhone is a specific 3G only variant. Not all carriers yet use it.
Covering Hong Kong with tethering is like covering the New York metropolitan area. If that's all AT&T had to cover it would be much simpler than covering the entire United States. If all of China has free tethering then you would be saying something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cendrillon
Hmmm, so that's why the rest of the world has MMS and Tethering? In Hong Kong we have tethering for free too!
You mean that Apple is giving customers what they want.... such as forcing customers to take data plans which cost $30+ per month which kicks back to Apple, along with the other subsidy that AT&T is extorted to give Apple?
Apple is not forcing customers to take $30 data plans and Apple does not get a kick back. They used to with the original iPhone. Now AT&T pays apple the subsidy up front. AT&T recoups over the 2 years mostly from the $30/mo data plan.
If US carriers only had to cover the equivalent area of Finland, that would be like covering the state of New Mexico.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
They have these things (less the roaming. be realistic here) they are called European operators. I have an all you can eat data plan. PERIOD. All data, all the time...€15 a month. 3.2 kb/s with a phone, and 7.2 kb/s if you buy a data modem from the operator. American carriers are screwing over their own base.
Apple is not forcing customers to take $30 data plans and Apple does not get a kick back. They used to with the original iPhone. Now AT&T pays apple the subsidy up front. AT&T recoups over the 2 years mostly from the $30/mo data plan.
Exactly. Apple is raping customers indirectly through the data plan sham.
Comments
Sounds like Craig Moffett is a big baby that needs mommy to give his biddy back before he throws a tantrum.
If anything, it's AT&T wrecking itself.
Quite. As usual it is a matter of perception. And very often that perception inexplicably falls into a well worn pattern of supporting the status quo. The media report that workers strike for more money - higher pay - for instance. And often the public get pissed off with the strikers because they themselves are affected in one way or the other. Rarely does the media portray the strikers as striking for a decent living wage. The assumption usually is that the workers are greedy, not the paymasters. I am not saying the workers are always right but it always strikes me that the reporting automatically tends to slanted in support of the status quo.
So is it Apple wrecking the phone industry or is the industry wrecking itself? Did file sharing and Apple destroy the music industry or did the music industry run itself in to the ground (as much as this really is the case)?
Yawn.
****
You're making Bambi cry.
EDIT:
Please don't quote offensive language.
i wouldn't be so quick to say that. it is possible that the next iphone will be one that has the tech to open up to more networks, and LTE might be the new standard at that point. who knows.
Being a ?standard? and being implemented are two very different things. First of all, Verizon can?t just flip a switch. Secondly, this needs to be tested and planned so it?s not going to magically be in place in under a year for the entire country. Then you have to consider that when LTE is well saturated there will still Verizon?s CDMA and CDMA2000 networks, which the iPhone doesn?t support. Let?s assume that the next iPhone supports GSM, CDMA, WCDMA, CDMA2000 and LTE all on the same chip. Who makes this chip? When will Apple get this chip to test? How much will it be? How large will it be? How power hungry will it be?
Even more pressing is the fact the normal radio development has not yet occurred for LTE. There are no LTE USB or EC/34 cards for notebooks that I?ve read about. These are products that are not constrained in the same way by size and power usage like thin mobile phones. Where is are the other mobile vendors using or announcing their future use of these products? If you?ve read something please post a link.
Finally, LTE is not the next step, faster WCDMA is. We now only have 7.2Mbps downlink and 384Kbps uplink on the iPhone. We still don?t have HSUPA in the iPhone despite my notebook USB card having a 14.4Mbps and 2Mbps HSUPA for about 2 years now. Then there is even faster HSUPA and then Evolved HSPA which no carrier can yet support. Verizon?s bolstering of supporting LTE and the mention of the iPhone was just a clever vapornet ruse to stop potential deserters from jumping to AT&T for the iPhone.
It is important to keep in mind that the initial 3G tech that ATT uses called WCDMA/UMTS has been designed for widespread use of data on a sustained basis. It is essentially Wide Band CDMA that uses asynch tech. Voice and data packets travel over the same 5 MHZ channel. Voice has time sensitive QoS, while data can lag but maintain integrity. The problem is where there are too many data users, there is not enough room for voice transmission and voice calls drop. Furthermore, the size of the WCDMA coverage per tower shrinks as usage increases... so users at the edge can experienced dropped calls often. Power consumption control is also difficult.
The Verizon networks uses a more "primitive" tech called CDMA 2000 or 1X and EVDO. Basically the narrow band tech uses 1.25 MHz channel primarily for voice and is called 1X... it can also transmit data. However, the bulk of the data is transmitted over a separate data only EVDO 1.25 MHz channel. So voice and data do not interfere. Then there are frequency used issues as well.
The CDMA2000 tech is essentially controlled by an American company called QCOM. The WCDMA was pushed by the EU in an effort to take control of the tech from QCOM and dilute their influence and royalties. Again, it was not data friendly in practice.. new variations called HSPDA, will improve data performance. It will take a lot of money. Not sure of ATT will kick in the money.
However, ATT was the best way for Apple to max out its investment in the iPhone, since VZ did not want to play ball by Apple's rules.
Thanks for explaining the differences and pointing out that there is still a long way to go from an investment point of view to get this right.
Hmmm, so that's why the rest of the world has MMS and Tethering? In Hong Kong we have tethering for free too!
I wish we could go back to the days when there was real competition among phone companies, and with 2 phone calls you could cancel your current carrier and move to a new one with no stupid "cancellation" fees, which are purely meant to stifle competition in the marketplace. Since then, the cost of mobile plans has skyrocketed while service has decreased.
AT&T and others got themselves into this mess, and, like the RIAA, it appears they plan to just keep doing the same bullshit instead of innovating and improving their service. Eventually they will make themselves obsolete unless they adapt and change to meet the demands of the 21st Century.
1. Apple needs to lower the costs of its plans to make people happy and get more customers.
2. AT&T needs to be prepared technically for any new business venture they join.
Apple and AT&T need to learn some lessons and let's hope they will.
I thought I paid my monthly bill and plan costs to AT&T, not Apple.
I love how people (pertaining to the iPhone) call it the "Apple tax" when once I walk out the door with the phone, Apple no longer gets my money (apart from the iTunes store, of course).
this analzit gets upset and whines to.. to who?..
Just who or what should change the industry if it isn't innovation? The analzit who wakes up one day out of touch as this guy obviously is.. or the consumer and feature phone innovators on or created new demand?
As for ATT.. the last time i looked their dividend was around 9%.. Now, if they can afford to finance their own innovations (keeping up with the hardware) and pay that dividend do you think this analzit has anything really important to say?
Well, a recognition party might be a good idea.. to affirm that innovative change RULES!!
What he is whining about is that more innovation or features for less $... more for less more for less... that is how consumer electronics companies thrive.. Dick Schultz didn't invent Best Buy before the industry filled up the big box stores he started.. He was forward looking and embraced the changes going on around him.. If ATT can't keep up someone else will step in.. and Apple will expand to more distribution.. it is natural selection at its best..
What he is speaking about is simply out of touch with retail.. or consumer electronics.. or looking forward instead of backwards.. Since when should the consumer want to pay more for more? or less for less? The idea is that the consumer will migrate to more features for the same.. (and bitch bitch bitch) or ideally to more features for less.. and then still bitch bitch bitch..
The consumer rules!
What these statements really mean is that change has so dramatically obstructed how this fellow sees things.. that he has nothing left to do but to get out of the way.. since he has just not been able to see what the future is - he has not been able to keep up.. Just how would he have managed the change of the past three years i wonder? Would ATT invent the Iphone instead of Apple.. would that have made him happy.. like would the record companies invent the ipod instead of Apple? .. and now he is stuck in the past calling "what is" counter productive or destructive rather than rational and logical.. After all is said .. Apple didn't talk anyone into anything they didn't want to do.. ATT took a chance and a bite out of the Apple... Anyone who says that has been detrimental to their bottom line is simply.. OUT OF TOUCH ..
Another year and I'll be with the iPhone pack. When Steve introduces the next generation iPhone (iPhone 4GL?) at next year's WWDC to work on Verizon's LTE network coming in the second half of 2010, I'm in. I actually hate both Verizon and AT&T, but Verizon is definitely the lesser of two evils.
att is rolling out its new network and a lot of its 3g is also being updated to 800MHz frequency range. VZW is too, this is gonna change the whole scene. as both are higher frequencies now, and ATT being higher than VZW for the most part.
Put ATT and VZW all at sub 1 GHz, I guarantee, you will see coverage like never before on both networks, particularly inside buildings and such.
This author is so far off the deep end. Whoa!
AT&T and all of the other cellular providers imagine an Internet with a toll booth at every entry point, on every device, and at every node or junction. Consumers want an internet with unlimited everything, one monthly charge per customer (not per device), no mention of terms like: Contracts, Kilobytes, Roaming Charges, Cancellation Charges, etc.
They have these things (less the roaming. be realistic here) they are called European operators. I have an all you can eat data plan. PERIOD. All data, all the time...?15 a month. 3.2 kb/s with a phone, and 7.2 kb/s if you buy a data modem from the operator. American carriers are screwing over their own base.
When Steve introduces the next generation iPhone (iPhone 4GL?) at next year's WWDC to work on Verizon's LTE network coming in the second half of 2010, I'm in.
Covering Hong Kong with tethering is like covering the New York metropolitan area. If that's all AT&T had to cover it would be much simpler than covering the entire United States. If all of China has free tethering then you would be saying something.
Hmmm, so that's why the rest of the world has MMS and Tethering? In Hong Kong we have tethering for free too!
You mean that Apple is giving customers what they want.... such as forcing customers to take data plans which cost $30+ per month which kicks back to Apple, along with the other subsidy that AT&T is extorted to give Apple?
Apple is not forcing customers to take $30 data plans and Apple does not get a kick back. They used to with the original iPhone. Now AT&T pays apple the subsidy up front. AT&T recoups over the 2 years mostly from the $30/mo data plan.
They have these things (less the roaming. be realistic here) they are called European operators. I have an all you can eat data plan. PERIOD. All data, all the time...€15 a month. 3.2 kb/s with a phone, and 7.2 kb/s if you buy a data modem from the operator. American carriers are screwing over their own base.
If US carriers only had to cover the equivalent area of Finland, that would be like covering New Mexico in the US.
I use Finland because this is where I currently am. Remove Finland, insert EUROPE then continue to have the operators screw you over.
Apple is not forcing customers to take $30 data plans and Apple does not get a kick back. They used to with the original iPhone. Now AT&T pays apple the subsidy up front. AT&T recoups over the 2 years mostly from the $30/mo data plan.
Exactly. Apple is raping customers indirectly through the data plan sham.