The real question is not whether or not Apple is to blame for this guy's death. It obviously isn't. The question is, how will Apple react to Foxconn's obviously over-the-top methods of keeping company secrets?
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them? It's a win-win for everyone. China gets a message that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Apple gets to keep it's shiny reputation.
It's only a matter of time before more and more of these horror stories come out of China. It's obvious someone is gunning for Apple specifically, now, too. This sort of thing happens all the time, and we think nothing of it, because we want cheap goods. But Apple, unlike many other companies, is more likely to care about its reputation.
Well, yeah, since it's China, I think it's called Communism.
Pet peeve of mine...
Communism is a form of government which chooses economic policies to achieve its philosophy. Capitalism is an economic system. Fascism is explicitly a mix of government and economics. China is an odd case since it is a communist government with an extreme form of capitalism but only in limited markets.
Yes, I am aware it says Capitalism is a social system in Wikipedia. It is wrong.
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US. The US government itself, needs to change the tax laws that allow companies like Apple to defer income taxes that result from manufacturing overseas. Companies such as Apple, Intel, use transfer pricing and do not pay any taxes in China and minimally in the US.
Again, the profits are kept in some tax heaven. Occasionally, the government give out a tax holiday and the companies can repatriate with a minimal tax of may be 5-15%.
Strategically, this kind of outsourcing transfer a lot of tech overseas. In the long run, this kind of thing comes to bite us. The huge supply chains, transfer of capital, manufacturing tech creates competition against us. It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
It was actually an interesting article right up to the point of slipping the "blame Apple" section in there. This is just arrogant tabloid reporting now.
Would just as much attention had been given if this were the prototype for the next Nintendo WII or maybe even the next Harry Potter book?
This isn't even remotely a blame on Apple. Every company demands secrecy from their vendors for unreleased products simply to stay ahead of whatever competition. It's sound business practice.
There is an obvious bias by the reporter to take yet another swipe at Apple.
Now, FoxConn on the other hand should face some kind of retribution for this. It appears that they have used some heavy-handed tactics and went seriously overboard.
The article didn't mention whether the prototype iPhone was ever recovered. Obviously the individual was let go without jailtime since he was able to go up to a roof and jump.
What gives?
WTF? He was an engineer that lost a prototype.... who the hell puts someone in Jail for that. You get fired for something like that but not put in jail. If he stole/sold the protoype you can look at legal action. Read the article. The only jab at apple is the last paragraph, they use factories that abuse thier workers.....but so does everyone else in china. Frankly i wish Apple products were made somewhere else.
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them?
No one holds off on buying an iPhone because of the manufacturer's business practices. An absurd suggestion. WHOSE phone would they buy instead?
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US.
It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
Yes, they should automate production right here in the USA. That would keep those manufacturing jobs from disappearing.
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US. The US government itself, needs to change the tax laws that allow companies like Apple to defer income taxes that result from manufacturing overseas. Companies such as Apple, Intel, use transfer pricing and do not pay any taxes in China and minimally in the US.
Again, the profits are kept in some tax heaven. Occasionally, the government give out a tax holiday and the companies can repatriate with a minimal tax of may be 5-15%.
Strategically, this kind of outsourcing transfer a lot of tech overseas. In the long run, this kind of thing comes to bite us. The huge supply chains, transfer of capital, manufacturing tech creates competition against us. It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
I agree with you, but it's not that simple. If we were to change our tax laws, and companies stopped building things in China, China would simply call in that gigantic debt we owe them. It's too late now to stop doing business with China altogether.
The real question is not whether or not Apple is to blame for this guy's death. It obviously isn't. The question is, how will Apple react to Foxconn's obviously over-the-top methods of keeping company secrets?
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them? It's a win-win for everyone. China gets a message that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Apple gets to keep it's shiny reputation.
It's only a matter of time before more and more of these horror stories come out of China. It's obvious someone is gunning for Apple specifically, now, too. This sort of thing happens all the time, and we think nothing of it, because we want cheap goods. But Apple, unlike many other companies, is more likely to care about its reputation.
Unfortunately the economics of production dictates that if Apple isn't using Foxconn, they will use another Chinese manufacturer which operates under the same rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwingrav
Communism is a form of government which chooses economic policies to achieve its philosophy. Capitalism is an economic system. Fascism is explicitly a mix of government and economics. China is an odd case since it is a communist government with an extreme form of capitalism but only in limited markets..
More to the point, in a Marxist-Communist system, all means of production are owned by the state. The justification for the accompanying one-party political system is that the party controls production and therefore protects the worker from exploitation. We could argue about whether that works in practice, but in reality, this is no longer the system in China. They have married the single-party control of Marxism to free-market economics. Individual rights are not protected, so exploitation by capitalism is maximized. The worst of both worlds.
No one holds off on buying an iPhone because of the manufacturer's business practices. An absurd suggestion. WHOSE phone would they buy instead?
I don't believe I was suggesting that. My point is that this is an opportunity for Apple to do something that's both decent and beneficial to its reputation. People aren't going to stop buying iPhones, either way. But acknowledging the problem and doing something about it does contribute to that incredible brand loyalty that Apple has always managed to generate. The short term hit to the bottom line would be made up for in spades over the long run.
Well, yeah, since it's China, I think it's called Communism.
The labels have become interchangeable of late, but Communism is the exact opposite of Capitalism. What China is today (despite the labels), is pretty much the exact definition of Fascism.
It's kind of ironic in a way for those of us old enough to remember the last century (and any students of history). Half the world fought a war to end the Fascist take over of Europe and people are still pilloried and even jailed today for daring to write a swastika on a wall or maintain that the Fascists were anything but purest evil.
Yet today the largest pure fascist state in the world (China) is dealt with like a "good partner" by the same countries that fought that war. Quite an incredible turn of events really but it says more about the demonisation of the Germans than it does about Fascism per se.
I don't believe I was suggesting that. My point is that this is an opportunity for Apple to do something that's both decent and beneficial to its reputation. People aren't going to stop buying iPhones, either way. But acknowledging the problem and doing something about it does contribute to that incredible brand loyalty that Apple has always managed to generate. The short term hit to the bottom line would be made up for in spades over the long run.
That's what I'm asking though - for any hit to be made up in the long run, there must be some sales that are lost today as a result of what they are going to "fix." So what sales are they losing in the short run, and who are they losing them to?
I think it's a shame so many people feel the need to make light the fact a man lost his life over this matter.
Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.
Which it hasn't been for a long time, at least since they gave up on Marxist economics. It's now a capitalist-totalitarian system. I don't know what you call that, but if not fascism, then what?
Yes, it is certainly not communism, as the main goal of communism was to stop the exploitation of workers. Calling China communist is 100% wrong. It does not really meet the definition of fascism either, as the number one characteristic of fascism would be: "Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak." The sheer fact that China is the largest creditor of the USA contradicts the fascism theory (and there are quite a few other things that do not match, e.g. most of the governmental violence targets "own" people). It is a totalitarian state with a high level of corporatism (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...an_corporatism) in the industrial areas. Whatever the security of Foxconn has done here, it is nothing the Pinkerton Agency would not have done in the US just a few decades ago (democracy has not stopped these killings either), or others in other parts of the world... it is not directly related to a political or sociological "system".
I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?
The current policy of laying people off in the USA and produce in low-wage countries is a dead-end street. I wish that Apple would play a model role here and put the "Made in U.S.A." sticker back on their products.
Comments
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them? It's a win-win for everyone. China gets a message that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Apple gets to keep it's shiny reputation.
It's only a matter of time before more and more of these horror stories come out of China. It's obvious someone is gunning for Apple specifically, now, too. This sort of thing happens all the time, and we think nothing of it, because we want cheap goods. But Apple, unlike many other companies, is more likely to care about its reputation.
Well, yeah, since it's China, I think it's called Communism.
Pet peeve of mine...
Communism is a form of government which chooses economic policies to achieve its philosophy. Capitalism is an economic system. Fascism is explicitly a mix of government and economics. China is an odd case since it is a communist government with an extreme form of capitalism but only in limited markets.
Yes, I am aware it says Capitalism is a social system in Wikipedia. It is wrong.
Again, the profits are kept in some tax heaven. Occasionally, the government give out a tax holiday and the companies can repatriate with a minimal tax of may be 5-15%.
Strategically, this kind of outsourcing transfer a lot of tech overseas. In the long run, this kind of thing comes to bite us. The huge supply chains, transfer of capital, manufacturing tech creates competition against us. It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
The real story here isn't Apple secrecy, or the guy jumping off a building -- it's capitalism, Chinese style. None dare call it fascism.
True. It's good to see someone gets it.
It was actually an interesting article right up to the point of slipping the "blame Apple" section in there. This is just arrogant tabloid reporting now.
Would just as much attention had been given if this were the prototype for the next Nintendo WII or maybe even the next Harry Potter book?
This isn't even remotely a blame on Apple. Every company demands secrecy from their vendors for unreleased products simply to stay ahead of whatever competition. It's sound business practice.
There is an obvious bias by the reporter to take yet another swipe at Apple.
Now, FoxConn on the other hand should face some kind of retribution for this. It appears that they have used some heavy-handed tactics and went seriously overboard.
The article didn't mention whether the prototype iPhone was ever recovered. Obviously the individual was let go without jailtime since he was able to go up to a roof and jump.
What gives?
WTF? He was an engineer that lost a prototype.... who the hell puts someone in Jail for that. You get fired for something like that but not put in jail. If he stole/sold the protoype you can look at legal action. Read the article. The only jab at apple is the last paragraph, they use factories that abuse thier workers.....but so does everyone else in china. Frankly i wish Apple products were made somewhere else.
Well, yeah, since it's China, I think it's called Communism.
Your thoughts are easily manipulated by labels.
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them?
No one holds off on buying an iPhone because of the manufacturer's business practices. An absurd suggestion. WHOSE phone would they buy instead?
Waiting for the "blame Apple crowd" to show.
Hmm. You're right. I mean, it's not like we've ever heard anything bad about where iphones come from.
I mean, ITS NOT LIKE APPLE KNEW.
How can we hold Apple responsible? They were doing what any business would do.
Apple in no way is responsible.
No one holds off on buying an iPhone because of the manufacturer's business practices. An absurd suggestion. WHOSE phone would they buy instead?
There's a reason I've never bought a foxconn motherboard actually. Oh, and there's plenty of decent phones out there. Expand your horizons.
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US.
It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
Yes, they should automate production right here in the USA. That would keep those manufacturing jobs from disappearing.
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas. There is enough automation available to overcome the labor cost differences and manufacture the products at home, here in the US. The US government itself, needs to change the tax laws that allow companies like Apple to defer income taxes that result from manufacturing overseas. Companies such as Apple, Intel, use transfer pricing and do not pay any taxes in China and minimally in the US.
Again, the profits are kept in some tax heaven. Occasionally, the government give out a tax holiday and the companies can repatriate with a minimal tax of may be 5-15%.
Strategically, this kind of outsourcing transfer a lot of tech overseas. In the long run, this kind of thing comes to bite us. The huge supply chains, transfer of capital, manufacturing tech creates competition against us. It is giant sucking sound for American jobs.
I agree with you, but it's not that simple. If we were to change our tax laws, and companies stopped building things in China, China would simply call in that gigantic debt we owe them. It's too late now to stop doing business with China altogether.
There's a reason I've never bought a foxconn motherboard actually. Oh, and there's plenty of decent phones out there. Expand your horizons.
And where are those decent phones made?
The real question is not whether or not Apple is to blame for this guy's death. It obviously isn't. The question is, how will Apple react to Foxconn's obviously over-the-top methods of keeping company secrets?
The decent thing, which happens to be the best marketing solution as well, is to immediately halt all business with Foxconn and pick another manufacturer for iPhones. That may cause shortages for a while, but it would be worth it. Who is going to argue that they can't get an iPhone when the reason they can't is that Apple cares about the people who make them? It's a win-win for everyone. China gets a message that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Apple gets to keep it's shiny reputation.
It's only a matter of time before more and more of these horror stories come out of China. It's obvious someone is gunning for Apple specifically, now, too. This sort of thing happens all the time, and we think nothing of it, because we want cheap goods. But Apple, unlike many other companies, is more likely to care about its reputation.
Unfortunately the economics of production dictates that if Apple isn't using Foxconn, they will use another Chinese manufacturer which operates under the same rules.
Communism is a form of government which chooses economic policies to achieve its philosophy. Capitalism is an economic system. Fascism is explicitly a mix of government and economics. China is an odd case since it is a communist government with an extreme form of capitalism but only in limited markets..
More to the point, in a Marxist-Communist system, all means of production are owned by the state. The justification for the accompanying one-party political system is that the party controls production and therefore protects the worker from exploitation. We could argue about whether that works in practice, but in reality, this is no longer the system in China. They have married the single-party control of Marxism to free-market economics. Individual rights are not protected, so exploitation by capitalism is maximized. The worst of both worlds.
No one holds off on buying an iPhone because of the manufacturer's business practices. An absurd suggestion. WHOSE phone would they buy instead?
I don't believe I was suggesting that. My point is that this is an opportunity for Apple to do something that's both decent and beneficial to its reputation. People aren't going to stop buying iPhones, either way. But acknowledging the problem and doing something about it does contribute to that incredible brand loyalty that Apple has always managed to generate. The short term hit to the bottom line would be made up for in spades over the long run.
Well, yeah, since it's China, I think it's called Communism.
The labels have become interchangeable of late, but Communism is the exact opposite of Capitalism. What China is today (despite the labels), is pretty much the exact definition of Fascism.
It's kind of ironic in a way for those of us old enough to remember the last century (and any students of history). Half the world fought a war to end the Fascist take over of Europe and people are still pilloried and even jailed today for daring to write a swastika on a wall or maintain that the Fascists were anything but purest evil.
Yet today the largest pure fascist state in the world (China) is dealt with like a "good partner" by the same countries that fought that war. Quite an incredible turn of events really but it says more about the demonisation of the Germans than it does about Fascism per se.
I don't believe I was suggesting that. My point is that this is an opportunity for Apple to do something that's both decent and beneficial to its reputation. People aren't going to stop buying iPhones, either way. But acknowledging the problem and doing something about it does contribute to that incredible brand loyalty that Apple has always managed to generate. The short term hit to the bottom line would be made up for in spades over the long run.
That's what I'm asking though - for any hit to be made up in the long run, there must be some sales that are lost today as a result of what they are going to "fix." So what sales are they losing in the short run, and who are they losing them to?
I think it's a shame so many people feel the need to make light the fact a man lost his life over this matter.
Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.
Which it hasn't been for a long time, at least since they gave up on Marxist economics. It's now a capitalist-totalitarian system. I don't know what you call that, but if not fascism, then what?
Yes, it is certainly not communism, as the main goal of communism was to stop the exploitation of workers. Calling China communist is 100% wrong. It does not really meet the definition of fascism either, as the number one characteristic of fascism would be: "Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak." The sheer fact that China is the largest creditor of the USA contradicts the fascism theory (and there are quite a few other things that do not match, e.g. most of the governmental violence targets "own" people). It is a totalitarian state with a high level of corporatism (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...an_corporatism) in the industrial areas. Whatever the security of Foxconn has done here, it is nothing the Pinkerton Agency would not have done in the US just a few decades ago (democracy has not stopped these killings either), or others in other parts of the world... it is not directly related to a political or sociological "system".
Apple needs to quit making its products overseas.
I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?
The current policy of laying people off in the USA and produce in low-wage countries is a dead-end street. I wish that Apple would play a model role here and put the "Made in U.S.A." sticker back on their products.