That's what I'm asking though - for any hit to be made up in the long run, there must be some sales that are lost today as a result of what they are going to "fix." So what sales are they losing in the short run, and who are they losing them to?
True. They haven't lost any sales yet. But this isn't going to be the last story about Apple and abuses in China. I'm suggesting that Apple jump out in front of the issue, and at least give people a sense that they're taking action, even if that action is ultimately futile.
Someone is trying to pressure Apple into doing something. The same way Greenpeace kept hounding Apple, even though its practices on environmental issues were no worse than other manufacturers. It was complete nonsense, and yet Apple was eventually inspired to respond. I have no idea if sales were actually hurting because of Greenpeace. I'm willing to bet they weren't. But now Apple gets to say "the world's greenest notebooks" in its ads.
I'm just saying there's something to be won in at least the appearance of caring. It's an X factor that you can't quantify, but it does make a difference.
I agree with you, but it's not that simple. If we were to change our tax laws, and companies stopped building things in China, China would simply call in that gigantic debt we owe them. It's too late now to stop doing business with China altogether.
I would prefer to suck it up and change the tax laws to favor investment and manufacturing here in the US. If the Chinese cash it their US debt is fine with me... they are going to do it sooner or later. I am sure Uncle Benny at the Fed can issue a $T worth of paper money to the Chinese.
The trade agreements are really lopsided to the US... both WTO and NAFTA. Now that China is spending huge amounts of money for windmills, and photo electricity, they are using regulations to keep US companies from selling the products. Their excuse is that WTO does not apply to the government controlled electric utilities.
This rip off the American jobs, capital and technology got to end. A lot of this tech, basic research was developed at the expense of the US taxpayer, including the microchip, robots, LCDs, LEDs, etc. My experience has been that US goods are much better built. Back in 1960s, my parents bought a GE electric iron to press clothes... it lasted till the mid 1980s and my mother go rid of it because the electric cord got worn out. I bought a plasticky GE electric iron and it lasted barely 3 years. Same with the junk tools that I buy these days... the wrenches crack or strip the nuts... I still have my US made tools that I bought in the early 1980s.
I would rather pay more for quality US products like clothes, appliances, etc that last a long time... instead of Chinese junk stuff. I have to keep on telling the wife not to buy this cheap junk. Any doctors or surgeons in the house? I am getting tired of cheap Chinese or even Indian disposable surgical instruments. Hospitals prefer those to reusable hi quality US or even German instruments that have to be autoclaved.
I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?
The current policy of laying people off in the USA and produce in low-wage countries is a dead-end street. I wish that Apple would play a model role here and put the "Made in U.S.A." sticker back on their products.
Frankly, I don't want to go back to paying $14,000 for a Mac again,
I would prefer to suck it up and change the tax laws to favor investment and manufacturing here in the US. If the Chinese cash it their US debt is fine with me... they are going to do it sooner or later. I am sure Uncle Benny at the Fed can issue a $T worth of paper money to the Chinese.
Boy would it be nice if people who didn't understand economics would not try to talk about it...
Suffice to say that if that happened, you'd find yourself out of a job and in the middle of the greatest of all great depressions.
Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.
You really think taking your life is the easy way out? Cowardly even? Go easy on the poor fella, it takes more guts to go his way. Cowards would not go through with it. I am certain that you or me would not have the guts to go through with it, but then we the lucky sods get to play on our apple products, and if we messed up at work we are not going to get beaten/threatened.
The labels have become interchangeable of late, but Communism is the exact opposite of Capitalism. What China is today (despite the labels), is pretty much the exact definition of Fascism.
It's kind of ironic in a way for those of us old enough to remember the last century (and any students of history). Half the world fought a war to end the Fascist take over of Europe and people are still pilloried and even jailed today for daring to write a swastika on a wall or maintain that the Fascists were anything but purest evil.
Yet today the largest pure fascist state in the world (China) is dealt with like a "good partner" by the same countries that fought that war. Quite an incredible turn of events really but it says more about the demonisation of the Germans than it does about Fascism per se.
Precisely. I believe China is potentially the most dangerous force in the world today, if you look beyond the more immediate threats. Over a billion people living with few human rights, being fed into the most gigantic economic shredder ever conceived. Compared to the period of notorious uber-capitalism of the late 19th century in the US, the scale of what is going on in China today staggers the mind -- especially when you consider that they have no political system to mitigate excesses. I wonder where it will end, what it will come to. I have a bad feeling about it.
Very sad story but I am not suprised. China is an evil dictatorship with a shocking record on human/worker rights.
Apple uses companies like Foxconn because they are cheap and we all gasp when these abuses are exposed. Apple could stop this. If Apple put their own people into Foxcon to monitor the situation they wouldn't get away with paying wages below the national minimum or bullying people to death.
Or better still why doesn't Apple 'think different' and start a change by building their own factory and employing workers directly?
Foxconn will probably get away with little or no penalty by bribing local officials, so it is up to companies like Apple to take a stance.
I feel sorry for the family of this worker. It is very sad to hear of such an incident, however Apple is not be be blamed.
The rumor mills masquerading as tech journalists may be responsible for this unfortunate accident. Whoever took the phone was not going to use it, that is for sure. He or she, whoever the thief may be, is going to sell the info to these rats that want to find information before it is time.
It could even be worse. Another iPhone wannabe might also want to buy it to know what Apple is working on. Apple should make sure that Foxconn increases its security in light of this.
My 6th sense tells me that Microsoft paid for the missing piece.
This has nothing to do with Apple or Communism or Capitalism.
Although it'd probably be best if someone familiar with the Chinese corporate mentality could comment, I'm guessing we Asians share enough for me to make an educated guess.
1. The employee
Someone in charge of multiple new iPhone prototypes is NOT some poor minimum-wage lackey. To be given such a huge responsibility at the tender age of 25 probably means he's (was) an executive (or at least a candidate) with a bright future.
2. Foxcomm's response and apology
What would any corporation in any nation do if a vital top secret item went missing? Search every nook and cranny and try to find out who might have taken it. Hence the interrogation and house search. Foxcomm apologized because it lost a vital item under its care and was unable to successfully recover it
3. The suicide
This is the part that you westerners will find hard to understand. Since very few of us are Christian or Muslim or any of the religions that forbid suicide, taking ones own life is still considered the most honorable way to take responsibility for a failing of any kind, especially in the corporate world.
Conjecture: The iPhone was stolen by a jealous coworker and will soon turn up somewhere.
(As you can probably guess, I make a living by reading works of fiction...)
I would not mind paying more if the QA went up to be honest.
Really? My Mac Pro did not cost any where near what my IIfx cost.
So many people like to over-simplify the "just bring the jobs back here" thing, the cost of a Mac Mini would probably jump to somewhere in the $2-4K range if we were to build all the components for that computer in this country. All the boards, chipsets, harddrives, cases...nothing exists here to allow that to happen, we'd have to build it from scratch and that is going to be reflected in the cost of the product. Everyone has gotten used to the fact that things aren't all that expensive because of GLOBAL economics, and it is just too bad that so many people simply do not have a grasp on things like that.
Did you know the tax rate of the state of Oregon is Higher than every other country out there except Denmark? That is why companies choose to make a lot of consumer things elsewhere, but this country still manufactures more than ANY other country. By a lot. Our GDP is higher than the next 4 countries combined, all because of what we do still make here.
Yes, it is certainly not communism, as the main goal of communism was to stop the exploitation of workers. Calling China communist is 100% wrong. It does not really meet the definition of fascism either, as the number one characteristic of fascism would be: "Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak." The sheer fact that China is the largest creditor of the USA contradicts the fascism theory (and there are quite a few other things that do not match, e.g. most of the governmental violence targets "own" people). It is a totalitarian state with a high level of corporatism (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...an_corporatism) in the industrial areas. Whatever the security of Foxconn has done here, it is nothing the Pinkerton Agency would not have done in the US just a few decades ago (democracy has not stopped these killings either), or others in other parts of the world... it is not directly related to a political or sociological "system".
I realize that the fascist label is imperfect, it's just the only one that seems a close fit. The Chinese government also exploits nationalist sentiments within China when it suits their purposes, which is another classic trait of fascist governments. Fascist states also operate as corporate states, another fit. Even so, I agree -- China today probably deserves an entirely new label.
As I mentioned above, the US had a period of run-amok capitalism, when individual rights were trampled by industry. But the US also had a political system to respond to these excesses, and it did. China has no such system. That is what concerns me.
I can imagine that Apple, who doesn't like their products leaked, put some sort of pressure on Foxcomm, which appears to leaks like a sieve before a new product launch. All those cell phone photos endanger the new product roll outs impact.
I also imagine that, knowing the secrecy obsession, that Foxcomm was under a microscope from Apple for these leaks. This poor schmuck loses a prototype, or has it stolen from him, and foxcomm has to overreact to save its contract.
Also, it looks like the Apple really wants a bang out of the tablet roll out, and I can imagine that this is what was actually lost. Apple with a new form factor for a product would be worth a lot to the clone electronics industry.
This will be an interesting story to watch unfold.
It was actually an interesting article right up to the point of slipping the "blame Apple" section in there. This is just arrogant tabloid reporting now.
Would just as much attention had been given if this were the prototype for the next Nintendo WII or maybe even the next Harry Potter book?
This isn't even remotely a blame on Apple. Every company demands secrecy from their vendors for unreleased products simply to stay ahead of whatever competition. It's sound business practice.
There is an obvious bias by the reporter to take yet another swipe at Apple.
Now, FoxConn on the other hand should face some kind of retribution for this. It appears that they have used some heavy-handed tactics and went seriously overboard.
The article didn't mention whether the prototype iPhone was ever recovered. Obviously the individual was let go without jailtime since he was able to go up to a roof and jump.
What gives?
It boggles the mind when it comes to the defense of Apple by the fanboys. It seems to be ok for Apple to do what it does whether it is the deceptions by Jobs or ignoring the plight of the workers that are contracted through these manufacturing companies. I guess we will hear the same old refrains of everyone else does it, or what about this technicality or they are Apple and therefore god. I for one am becoming disenchanted with Apple and the way they act.
It boggles the mind when it comes to the defense of Apple by the fanboys. It seems to be ok for Apple to do what it does whether it is the deceptions by Jobs or ignoring the plight of the workers that are contracted through these manufacturing companies. I guess we will hear the same old refrains of everyone else does it, or what about this technicality or they are Apple and therefore god. I for one am becoming disenchanted with Apple and the way they act.
Almost as amazing as how often the term "fanboy" gets thrown around.
Comments
That's what I'm asking though - for any hit to be made up in the long run, there must be some sales that are lost today as a result of what they are going to "fix." So what sales are they losing in the short run, and who are they losing them to?
True. They haven't lost any sales yet. But this isn't going to be the last story about Apple and abuses in China. I'm suggesting that Apple jump out in front of the issue, and at least give people a sense that they're taking action, even if that action is ultimately futile.
Someone is trying to pressure Apple into doing something. The same way Greenpeace kept hounding Apple, even though its practices on environmental issues were no worse than other manufacturers. It was complete nonsense, and yet Apple was eventually inspired to respond. I have no idea if sales were actually hurting because of Greenpeace. I'm willing to bet they weren't. But now Apple gets to say "the world's greenest notebooks" in its ads.
I'm just saying there's something to be won in at least the appearance of caring. It's an X factor that you can't quantify, but it does make a difference.
I agree with you, but it's not that simple. If we were to change our tax laws, and companies stopped building things in China, China would simply call in that gigantic debt we owe them. It's too late now to stop doing business with China altogether.
I would prefer to suck it up and change the tax laws to favor investment and manufacturing here in the US. If the Chinese cash it their US debt is fine with me... they are going to do it sooner or later. I am sure Uncle Benny at the Fed can issue a $T worth of paper money to the Chinese.
The trade agreements are really lopsided to the US... both WTO and NAFTA. Now that China is spending huge amounts of money for windmills, and photo electricity, they are using regulations to keep US companies from selling the products. Their excuse is that WTO does not apply to the government controlled electric utilities.
This rip off the American jobs, capital and technology got to end. A lot of this tech, basic research was developed at the expense of the US taxpayer, including the microchip, robots, LCDs, LEDs, etc. My experience has been that US goods are much better built. Back in 1960s, my parents bought a GE electric iron to press clothes... it lasted till the mid 1980s and my mother go rid of it because the electric cord got worn out. I bought a plasticky GE electric iron and it lasted barely 3 years. Same with the junk tools that I buy these days... the wrenches crack or strip the nuts... I still have my US made tools that I bought in the early 1980s.
I would rather pay more for quality US products like clothes, appliances, etc that last a long time... instead of Chinese junk stuff. I have to keep on telling the wife not to buy this cheap junk. Any doctors or surgeons in the house? I am getting tired of cheap Chinese or even Indian disposable surgical instruments. Hospitals prefer those to reusable hi quality US or even German instruments that have to be autoclaved.
I fully agree. My Apple SE proudly says "Made in U.S.A." and it was made well; it still works. Why would we not be able to do this any more?
The current policy of laying people off in the USA and produce in low-wage countries is a dead-end street. I wish that Apple would play a model role here and put the "Made in U.S.A." sticker back on their products.
Frankly, I don't want to go back to paying $14,000 for a Mac again,
I would prefer to suck it up and change the tax laws to favor investment and manufacturing here in the US. If the Chinese cash it their US debt is fine with me... they are going to do it sooner or later. I am sure Uncle Benny at the Fed can issue a $T worth of paper money to the Chinese.
Boy would it be nice if people who didn't understand economics would not try to talk about it...
Suffice to say that if that happened, you'd find yourself out of a job and in the middle of the greatest of all great depressions.
Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.
You really think taking your life is the easy way out? Cowardly even? Go easy on the poor fella, it takes more guts to go his way. Cowards would not go through with it. I am certain that you or me would not have the guts to go through with it, but then we the lucky sods get to play on our apple products, and if we messed up at work we are not going to get beaten/threatened.
Frankly, I don't want to go back to paying $14,000 for a Mac again,
Don't buy the current mac pro then :P
I would not mind paying more if the QA went up to be honest.
The labels have become interchangeable of late, but Communism is the exact opposite of Capitalism. What China is today (despite the labels), is pretty much the exact definition of Fascism.
It's kind of ironic in a way for those of us old enough to remember the last century (and any students of history). Half the world fought a war to end the Fascist take over of Europe and people are still pilloried and even jailed today for daring to write a swastika on a wall or maintain that the Fascists were anything but purest evil.
Yet today the largest pure fascist state in the world (China) is dealt with like a "good partner" by the same countries that fought that war. Quite an incredible turn of events really but it says more about the demonisation of the Germans than it does about Fascism per se.
Precisely. I believe China is potentially the most dangerous force in the world today, if you look beyond the more immediate threats. Over a billion people living with few human rights, being fed into the most gigantic economic shredder ever conceived. Compared to the period of notorious uber-capitalism of the late 19th century in the US, the scale of what is going on in China today staggers the mind -- especially when you consider that they have no political system to mitigate excesses. I wonder where it will end, what it will come to. I have a bad feeling about it.
Apple uses companies like Foxconn because they are cheap and we all gasp when these abuses are exposed. Apple could stop this. If Apple put their own people into Foxcon to monitor the situation they wouldn't get away with paying wages below the national minimum or bullying people to death.
Or better still why doesn't Apple 'think different' and start a change by building their own factory and employing workers directly?
Foxconn will probably get away with little or no penalty by bribing local officials, so it is up to companies like Apple to take a stance.
The rumor mills masquerading as tech journalists may be responsible for this unfortunate accident. Whoever took the phone was not going to use it, that is for sure. He or she, whoever the thief may be, is going to sell the info to these rats that want to find information before it is time.
It could even be worse. Another iPhone wannabe might also want to buy it to know what Apple is working on. Apple should make sure that Foxconn increases its security in light of this.
My 6th sense tells me that Microsoft paid for the missing piece.
This has nothing to do with Apple or Communism or Capitalism.
Although it'd probably be best if someone familiar with the Chinese corporate mentality could comment, I'm guessing we Asians share enough for me to make an educated guess.
1. The employee
Someone in charge of multiple new iPhone prototypes is NOT some poor minimum-wage lackey. To be given such a huge responsibility at the tender age of 25 probably means he's (was) an executive (or at least a candidate) with a bright future.
2. Foxcomm's response and apology
What would any corporation in any nation do if a vital top secret item went missing? Search every nook and cranny and try to find out who might have taken it. Hence the interrogation and house search. Foxcomm apologized because it lost a vital item under its care and was unable to successfully recover it
3. The suicide
This is the part that you westerners will find hard to understand. Since very few of us are Christian or Muslim or any of the religions that forbid suicide, taking ones own life is still considered the most honorable way to take responsibility for a failing of any kind, especially in the corporate world.
Conjecture: The iPhone was stolen by a jealous coworker and will soon turn up somewhere.
(As you can probably guess, I make a living by reading works of fiction...)
Don't buy the current mac pro then :P
I would not mind paying more if the QA went up to be honest.
Really? My Mac Pro did not cost any where near what my IIfx cost.
So many people like to over-simplify the "just bring the jobs back here" thing, the cost of a Mac Mini would probably jump to somewhere in the $2-4K range if we were to build all the components for that computer in this country. All the boards, chipsets, harddrives, cases...nothing exists here to allow that to happen, we'd have to build it from scratch and that is going to be reflected in the cost of the product. Everyone has gotten used to the fact that things aren't all that expensive because of GLOBAL economics, and it is just too bad that so many people simply do not have a grasp on things like that.
Did you know the tax rate of the state of Oregon is Higher than every other country out there except Denmark? That is why companies choose to make a lot of consumer things elsewhere, but this country still manufactures more than ANY other country. By a lot. Our GDP is higher than the next 4 countries combined, all because of what we do still make here.
Maybe if we can free up the death grip of some of the unions in the US we can move some of these jobs back home.
Is it hard to type with your head stuck so far up your ass?
Yes, it is certainly not communism, as the main goal of communism was to stop the exploitation of workers. Calling China communist is 100% wrong. It does not really meet the definition of fascism either, as the number one characteristic of fascism would be: "Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak." The sheer fact that China is the largest creditor of the USA contradicts the fascism theory (and there are quite a few other things that do not match, e.g. most of the governmental violence targets "own" people). It is a totalitarian state with a high level of corporatism (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...an_corporatism) in the industrial areas. Whatever the security of Foxconn has done here, it is nothing the Pinkerton Agency would not have done in the US just a few decades ago (democracy has not stopped these killings either), or others in other parts of the world... it is not directly related to a political or sociological "system".
I realize that the fascist label is imperfect, it's just the only one that seems a close fit. The Chinese government also exploits nationalist sentiments within China when it suits their purposes, which is another classic trait of fascist governments. Fascist states also operate as corporate states, another fit. Even so, I agree -- China today probably deserves an entirely new label.
As I mentioned above, the US had a period of run-amok capitalism, when individual rights were trampled by industry. But the US also had a political system to respond to these excesses, and it did. China has no such system. That is what concerns me.
I also imagine that, knowing the secrecy obsession, that Foxcomm was under a microscope from Apple for these leaks. This poor schmuck loses a prototype, or has it stolen from him, and foxcomm has to overreact to save its contract.
Also, it looks like the Apple really wants a bang out of the tablet roll out, and I can imagine that this is what was actually lost. Apple with a new form factor for a product would be worth a lot to the clone electronics industry.
This will be an interesting story to watch unfold.
It was actually an interesting article right up to the point of slipping the "blame Apple" section in there. This is just arrogant tabloid reporting now.
Would just as much attention had been given if this were the prototype for the next Nintendo WII or maybe even the next Harry Potter book?
This isn't even remotely a blame on Apple. Every company demands secrecy from their vendors for unreleased products simply to stay ahead of whatever competition. It's sound business practice.
There is an obvious bias by the reporter to take yet another swipe at Apple.
Now, FoxConn on the other hand should face some kind of retribution for this. It appears that they have used some heavy-handed tactics and went seriously overboard.
The article didn't mention whether the prototype iPhone was ever recovered. Obviously the individual was let go without jailtime since he was able to go up to a roof and jump.
What gives?
It boggles the mind when it comes to the defense of Apple by the fanboys. It seems to be ok for Apple to do what it does whether it is the deceptions by Jobs or ignoring the plight of the workers that are contracted through these manufacturing companies. I guess we will hear the same old refrains of everyone else does it, or what about this technicality or they are Apple and therefore god. I for one am becoming disenchanted with Apple and the way they act.
The real story here isn't Apple secrecy, or the guy jumping off a building -- it's capitalism, Chinese style. None dare call it fascism.
Corporatism is a more accurate term for fascism.
It is amazing how one company (Foxconn) can have so much power.
It boggles the mind when it comes to the defense of Apple by the fanboys. It seems to be ok for Apple to do what it does whether it is the deceptions by Jobs or ignoring the plight of the workers that are contracted through these manufacturing companies. I guess we will hear the same old refrains of everyone else does it, or what about this technicality or they are Apple and therefore god. I for one am becoming disenchanted with Apple and the way they act.
Almost as amazing as how often the term "fanboy" gets thrown around.