It's takes more guts to commit suicide therefore he took the harder way out of the situation?
Why would someone intentiaonally choose the more difficult way out of something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02
When they feel there is no other option. You apparently have no idea what a psychological effect torture, threats, and mental anguish can have on a human.
You apparently cannot read what I wrote.
If they feel there is no other option, then it's the easy way out.
For example, we blame China for polluting the environment, but a vast number of this pollution comes from factories that ship things to the US, supporting US consumers.
Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.
the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.
Will do? They "will" do because they have no choice. Your absolutely right that the average U.S. worker can't compete with that.......
Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.
It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
China's own domestic demand for consumer products is growing rapidly. They already sell more cars in China than in the US. China is the second largest market for computer/laptop.
Suppose if Apple shifts some production back to the US, but then the products will be way more expensive for all consumers, especially for the developing countries. That is why there is no way Apple can shift all production back to the US, maybe part of the production.
It is a misconception that China is totally dependent on exports to the US. The effect of the slumping US economy on China is overrated. China itself is a large market, especially when its domestic demand is growing rapidly. This is different from Japan where their domestic market is saturated already.
China's own domestic demand for consumer products is growing rapidly. They already sell more cars in China than in the US. China is the second largest market for computer/laptop.
Suppose if Apple shifts some production back to the US, but then the products will be way more expensive for all consumers, especially for the developing countries. That is why there is no way Apple can shift all production back to the US, maybe part of the production.
It is a misconception that China is totally dependent on exports to the US. The effect of the slumping US economy on China is overrated. China itself is a large market, especially when its domestic demand is growing rapidly. This is different from Japan where their domestic market is saturated already.
Yes, interestingly I saw a news report where one of China's stimulus programs was providing subsidies for rural consumers to buy new appliances made by domestic producers. Refigerators, stoves, AC, washing machines, etc. It's a nice double dip for the money: you improve rural living conditions at a time where unemployed migrant workers used to urban amenities are returning to rural communities while propping up sales and jobs in your manufacturing areas.
Plus you're slightly decreasing the disparity in wealth between rural and urban areas.
Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.
It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
Some people in this thread seem to assume that US workers are some how more proficient than Chinese workers, that somehow US workers make better products simply because they are american.
Perhaps what we really intend to say is that manufacturing in the US has a lot more stringent regulations compared with that in China, but with these additional regulations comes added cost; not to mention the added costs of insurance, health care, 401k s. At the end of the day, production in the States is simply not feasible for Apple in it's competitive market. What would an "apple tax" look like if all products were made in the States? GM is a prime example.
I worked in an aerospace firm that manufactured all parts in the States for military proprietary reasons. Let me tell you, some of our additional regulations are garbage. We inspect tolerances that don't matter, we need process approval on minimal changes. Perhaps we are doing right, but we often take a "cover all" approach that in reality is very wasteful.
Another thing, why do you call the Chinese economy frail? Who owes who 700 billion dollars? If the US went bankrupt it would mean 1 thing: War.
Too many links.......too too many. Google them yourself.
if you honestly disagree with their policies and want to do something about it, stop buying things made in china. until most of us are willing to stop buying products made in such plants, conditions will persist, and your new throw-away gadget will still be cheap enough to sit in a landfill next season.
He said: "But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't?"
You responded: "Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China."
You seemed to put yourself above him and you're not above him. We're all equal here. You have to cite, period. That's all.
It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
Which part of "it was already cited on page 2" is confusing you? Do you need the URL or can you simply go to page 2 of this thread and look at post #68?
Which part of "he has zero citations" is confusing you?
He has cited nada so his post is based on nothing more than his biased opinion. I am not "putting myself above him" when I point out his lack of evidence and how his opinion conflicts with other information (which I provided) and is clearly based on bias on a subject he knows very little about.
At which point did you demand hard evidence from him? Never.
So pray tell are you treating him differently and not asking for citations? Did you even READ the post he was responding to? anantksundaram was asking for citations for claims that were dubious. Millmoss responded "why should I"?
Answer: Because your assertions are wrong and based on personal bias.
Plus he has a history of argument from authority rather than based on evidence. This is the same guy that starts discussions about Jobs' Jackling house with: do you have the credentials to debate me? No? Your opinion is worthless...I am an expert.
Jeez. If anyone has a superiority complex around here it's him.
A 25-year-old man reportedly committed suicide after an iPhone prototype he was responsible for went missing, leading to alleged "unbearable interrogation techniques" in the ensuing investigation, according to a Chinese publication.
As first reported by ND Daily, the man, Sun Danyong, reportedly had his property seized and was held in solitary confinement after one of 16 prototype iPhones he was responsible for went missing. The man jumped from a 12-story building last week.
As translated by Shanghaiist, the man told his friends before his death that the security guards with Foxconn, the iPhone manufacturing company, had laid hands on him. Chinese media reported that the missing device was a new "4G" iPhone.
In the wake of the incident, officials from Foxconn issued a statement that included an apology. According to Shanghaiist, the section chief of the Central Security division "may have used 'inappropriate interrogation methods' such as searching Sun's house, holding Sun in solitary confinement and possibly beatings." In addition, a Foxconn spokesperson reportedly said the incident is an example of the company's "internal management deficiencies."
Though the section chief has been suspended without pay, security officers who worked with him said it was unlikely that Sun was beaten.
Some, such as DigitalBeat, have taken to citing the incident as an example of the impact of Apple's secretive nature. They conclude that there is great pressure on Foxconn to keep Apple's secrets in order to retain their manufacturing contract.
"(Apple) uses the element of surprise to help build up excitement for its flashy product launches, helping to drive sales and its stock price higher," Eric Eldon writes. "In order to make that happen, Apple exerts immense pressure on its business partners help it maintain secrecy. The missing phone, some sort of new iPhone, has so far been nothing more than speculation among gadget sites."
It's another story of trouble from China for Apple. Just last week, the company's foreign factories came under fire, as a new investigation found that 45 of the 83 factories that built iPhones and iPods in 2008 weren't paying valid overtime rates, and 23 weren't even paying some of their workers China's minimum wage.
Tuesday afternoon, Apple issued a response on the matter to CNet.
"We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death," Apple spokeswoman Kristin Huguet said. "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
The guy was entrusted with high value information and failed. He felt shame and decided to end his life. A bit extreme but very honorable. Instead of accusing the factory of treating employees with disrespect or whatever bullshit argument, apple execs should realize that some cultures don't take negligence so lightly as americans do.
Here in the US, the guy would hire a lawyer and sue, because OBVIOUSLY it was everyone else's fault he lost the prototype. And, goddammit, someone should pay him for all the distress!
THEN try to sell the book and movie rights.
We insist that agricultural products used in cosmetics are ethically produced. WHy can't we do the same for all these Asian manufactured electronic products? Yes, they would be a little more costly, but then American workers might have a chance to get some of their jobs back.
The guy was entrusted with high value information and failed. He felt shame and decided to end his life. A bit extreme but very honorable. Instead of accusing the factory of treating employees with disrespect or whatever bullshit argument, apple execs should realize that some cultures don't take negligence so lightly as americans do.
Apple pays Foxconn $2.50 for every iTouch and iPhone assembled; and thats 300+ parts every iPhone/iTouch. Foxconn has no choice but to work overtime and because of the manpower needed to support Apple's manufacturing line they can't pay it off because Apple is underpaying them, thus resulting in unpaid workers. And now people here, that have no idea what's going on, are insulting Foxconn on the worker's conditions, while it's actually Apple's fault. The poor guy hurled himself off a building because of the tremendous pressure Apple put him under to give him the 4th iPhone 4G, as only 4 of the 16 were working iPhone 4Gs. Apple simply would not do with only 15 of the 16 iPhones, and acted as complete shitters pressuring the man, until the breaking point, where he hurled himself off a roof.
EDIT:Things are very different in China. I would know. I recommend not giving false opinions if you don't have a slight idea of what's going on down there. IF you really wanna understand this, read the chinese news like I have on the subject.
Comments
Originally Posted by Chris_CA
It's takes more guts to commit suicide therefore he took the harder way out of the situation?
Why would someone intentiaonally choose the more difficult way out of something?
When they feel there is no other option. You apparently have no idea what a psychological effect torture, threats, and mental anguish can have on a human.
You apparently cannot read what I wrote.
If they feel there is no other option, then it's the easy way out.
For example, we blame China for polluting the environment, but a vast number of this pollution comes from factories that ship things to the US, supporting US consumers.
We are all at fault.
You are exactly right about that.
Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.
the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.
Will do? They "will" do because they have no choice. Your absolutely right that the average U.S. worker can't compete with that.......
http://www.ihlo.org/IS/001104c.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/09...king-cond.html *Dorm rooms? *Curfews?*
Too many links.......too too many. Google them yourself.
Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.
It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
China's own domestic demand for consumer products is growing rapidly. They already sell more cars in China than in the US. China is the second largest market for computer/laptop.
Suppose if Apple shifts some production back to the US, but then the products will be way more expensive for all consumers, especially for the developing countries. That is why there is no way Apple can shift all production back to the US, maybe part of the production.
It is a misconception that China is totally dependent on exports to the US. The effect of the slumping US economy on China is overrated. China itself is a large market, especially when its domestic demand is growing rapidly. This is different from Japan where their domestic market is saturated already.
China's own domestic demand for consumer products is growing rapidly. They already sell more cars in China than in the US. China is the second largest market for computer/laptop.
Suppose if Apple shifts some production back to the US, but then the products will be way more expensive for all consumers, especially for the developing countries. That is why there is no way Apple can shift all production back to the US, maybe part of the production.
It is a misconception that China is totally dependent on exports to the US. The effect of the slumping US economy on China is overrated. China itself is a large market, especially when its domestic demand is growing rapidly. This is different from Japan where their domestic market is saturated already.
Yes, interestingly I saw a news report where one of China's stimulus programs was providing subsidies for rural consumers to buy new appliances made by domestic producers. Refigerators, stoves, AC, washing machines, etc. It's a nice double dip for the money: you improve rural living conditions at a time where unemployed migrant workers used to urban amenities are returning to rural communities while propping up sales and jobs in your manufacturing areas.
Plus you're slightly decreasing the disparity in wealth between rural and urban areas.
Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.
It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
Some people in this thread seem to assume that US workers are some how more proficient than Chinese workers, that somehow US workers make better products simply because they are american.
Perhaps what we really intend to say is that manufacturing in the US has a lot more stringent regulations compared with that in China, but with these additional regulations comes added cost; not to mention the added costs of insurance, health care, 401k s. At the end of the day, production in the States is simply not feasible for Apple in it's competitive market. What would an "apple tax" look like if all products were made in the States? GM is a prime example.
I worked in an aerospace firm that manufactured all parts in the States for military proprietary reasons. Let me tell you, some of our additional regulations are garbage. We inspect tolerances that don't matter, we need process approval on minimal changes. Perhaps we are doing right, but we often take a "cover all" approach that in reality is very wasteful.
Another thing, why do you call the Chinese economy frail? Who owes who 700 billion dollars? If the US went bankrupt it would mean 1 thing: War.
Let's hope that doesn't happen.
Will do? They "will" do because they have no choice. Your absolutely right that the average U.S. worker can't compete with that.......
http://www.ihlo.org/IS/001104c.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/09...king-cond.html *Dorm rooms? *Curfews?*
Too many links.......too too many. Google them yourself.
if you honestly disagree with their policies and want to do something about it, stop buying things made in china. until most of us are willing to stop buying products made in such plants, conditions will persist, and your new throw-away gadget will still be cheap enough to sit in a landfill next season.
Already cited on...
It doesn't matter.
He said: "But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't?"
You responded: "Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China."
You seemed to put yourself above him and you're not above him. We're all equal here. You have to cite, period. That's all.
It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
You apparently cannot read what I wrote.
If they feel there is no other option, then it's the easy way out.
I read your post very clearly, you are trying to rationalize suicide.
It doesn't matter.
He said: "But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't?"
You responded: "Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China."
You seemed to put yourself above him and you're not above him. We're all equal here. You have to cite, period. That's all.
It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
Which part of "it was already cited on page 2" is confusing you? Do you need the URL or can you simply go to page 2 of this thread and look at post #68?
Which part of "he has zero citations" is confusing you?
He has cited nada so his post is based on nothing more than his biased opinion. I am not "putting myself above him" when I point out his lack of evidence and how his opinion conflicts with other information (which I provided) and is clearly based on bias on a subject he knows very little about.
At which point did you demand hard evidence from him? Never.
So pray tell are you treating him differently and not asking for citations? Did you even READ the post he was responding to? anantksundaram was asking for citations for claims that were dubious. Millmoss responded "why should I"?
Answer: Because your assertions are wrong and based on personal bias.
Plus he has a history of argument from authority rather than based on evidence. This is the same guy that starts discussions about Jobs' Jackling house with: do you have the credentials to debate me? No? Your opinion is worthless...I am an expert.
Jeez. If anyone has a superiority complex around here it's him.
It doesn't matter.
Oh and I forgot. It DOES matter because you stated:
The first thing you can research, explain and cite when explaining is who's polls are these and why should we trust them?
So I need to re-cite the reference for you (which I did), walk you through the citation and after I do so you're going to say it doesn't matter?
Um...lemme see...what is the proper response for that? Oh yes: bugger off.
I read your post very clearly,
Obviously then, you have no comprehension ability at all.
you are trying to rationalize suicide.
No idea how you came up with that.
Why would someone intentionally take the most difficult way out of a situation?
If you do not understand this in relation to my posts, don't waste my time and yours replying.
A 25-year-old man reportedly committed suicide after an iPhone prototype he was responsible for went missing, leading to alleged "unbearable interrogation techniques" in the ensuing investigation, according to a Chinese publication.
As first reported by ND Daily, the man, Sun Danyong, reportedly had his property seized and was held in solitary confinement after one of 16 prototype iPhones he was responsible for went missing. The man jumped from a 12-story building last week.
As translated by Shanghaiist, the man told his friends before his death that the security guards with Foxconn, the iPhone manufacturing company, had laid hands on him. Chinese media reported that the missing device was a new "4G" iPhone.
In the wake of the incident, officials from Foxconn issued a statement that included an apology. According to Shanghaiist, the section chief of the Central Security division "may have used 'inappropriate interrogation methods' such as searching Sun's house, holding Sun in solitary confinement and possibly beatings." In addition, a Foxconn spokesperson reportedly said the incident is an example of the company's "internal management deficiencies."
Though the section chief has been suspended without pay, security officers who worked with him said it was unlikely that Sun was beaten.
Some, such as DigitalBeat, have taken to citing the incident as an example of the impact of Apple's secretive nature. They conclude that there is great pressure on Foxconn to keep Apple's secrets in order to retain their manufacturing contract.
"(Apple) uses the element of surprise to help build up excitement for its flashy product launches, helping to drive sales and its stock price higher," Eric Eldon writes. "In order to make that happen, Apple exerts immense pressure on its business partners help it maintain secrecy. The missing phone, some sort of new iPhone, has so far been nothing more than speculation among gadget sites."
It's another story of trouble from China for Apple. Just last week, the company's foreign factories came under fire, as a new investigation found that 45 of the 83 factories that built iPhones and iPods in 2008 weren't paying valid overtime rates, and 23 weren't even paying some of their workers China's minimum wage.
Tuesday afternoon, Apple issued a response on the matter to CNet.
"We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death," Apple spokeswoman Kristin Huguet said. "We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Bullshit.
The guy was entrusted with high value information and failed. He felt shame and decided to end his life. A bit extreme but very honorable. Instead of accusing the factory of treating employees with disrespect or whatever bullshit argument, apple execs should realize that some cultures don't take negligence so lightly as americans do.
Now, THAT'S commitment!
Here in the US, the guy would hire a lawyer and sue, because OBVIOUSLY it was everyone else's fault he lost the prototype. And, goddammit, someone should pay him for all the distress!
THEN try to sell the book and movie rights.
We insist that agricultural products used in cosmetics are ethically produced. WHy can't we do the same for all these Asian manufactured electronic products? Yes, they would be a little more costly, but then American workers might have a chance to get some of their jobs back.
Bullshit.
The guy was entrusted with high value information and failed. He felt shame and decided to end his life. A bit extreme but very honorable. Instead of accusing the factory of treating employees with disrespect or whatever bullshit argument, apple execs should realize that some cultures don't take negligence so lightly as americans do.
I agree with ya man. It's sad.
Apple pays Foxconn $2.50 for every iTouch and iPhone assembled; and thats 300+ parts every iPhone/iTouch. Foxconn has no choice but to work overtime and because of the manpower needed to support Apple's manufacturing line they can't pay it off because Apple is underpaying them, thus resulting in unpaid workers. And now people here, that have no idea what's going on, are insulting Foxconn on the worker's conditions, while it's actually Apple's fault. The poor guy hurled himself off a building because of the tremendous pressure Apple put him under to give him the 4th iPhone 4G, as only 4 of the 16 were working iPhone 4Gs. Apple simply would not do with only 15 of the 16 iPhones, and acted as complete shitters pressuring the man, until the breaking point, where he hurled himself off a roof.
EDIT:Things are very different in China. I would know. I recommend not giving false opinions if you don't have a slight idea of what's going on down there. IF you really wanna understand this, read the chinese news like I have on the subject.