Tauron is incorrect. The Macbook Pro's case is not its heatsink. There is no thermal interface between the "hot" parts of the MBP- the chips- and the aluminum body. If you go to iFixit's disassembly guide, you can see the actual heatsinks, attached to the motherboard as in this picture. Fans blow through them and out the back of the case. There's some foamy stuff between the fans and the case that is mostly for vibration dampening.
"Convection" cooling via air transfer to the case probably adds a Watt or two at most to the machine's cooling capacity. It certainly does better than plastic would, but the cooling advantage of aluminum over plastic is mainly that it allows the machine to be made thinner without compromising the size of the actual heatsinks they can cram in it.
Tauron is incorrect. The Macbook Pro's case is not its heatsink. There is no thermal interface between the "hot" parts of the MBP- the chips- and the aluminum body. If you go to iFixit's disassembly guide, you can see the actual heatsinks, attached to the motherboard as in this picture. Fans blow through them and out the back of the case. There's some foamy stuff between the fans and the case that is mostly for vibration dampening.
"Convection" cooling via air transfer to the case probably adds a Watt or two at most to the machine's cooling capacity. It certainly does better than plastic would, but the cooling advantage of aluminum over plastic is mainly that it allows the machine to be made thinner without compromising the size of the actual heatsinks they can cram in it.
That's what I want to explain to Mr. I'mma-zo-cleva-acronym-user
I'm doing custom watercooled PC's for several years and I know what I'm talking about.
MBP's case isn't connected to heatsink and it doesn't play any big role in cooling.
You not being able to understand that doesn't make it "nonsense ..pure nonsense".
Great job on the water cooled PC. If the case gets warm it's having "some" thermal effect. I doubt Apple wants to connect the hot parts to the case because that could lead to the case getting uncomfortably hot. I gotcha now...I misunderstood, I thought you were refuting the heat conductive properties of aluminum.
As much I as I want Quad Core in a Macbook I realize the thermals aren't in my favor.
Apple states that the alum body allows it to use more powerful chips and drives . The plastic model couldn't handle it .
I Quote and link a YATES articles below ,so dude please don't make stuff up. Ok . Thank you
>>>>>>>
JULY 07, 2009
MacBook Pro soars to new heights
es
By Tom Yager | InfoWorld
Quick, cool, and roomy
The MacBook Pro is a machine with desktop specs. The 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 1,066MHz DDR3 memory, and dual Nvidia GPUs inevitably contribute heat to the design. A plastic PC notebook with similar power would need a noisy fan just to survive. I don't have a PC notebook in this class that I can bear to share a room with, much less have in my lap. The MacBook Pro runs cool and silent the majority of the time by using its aluminum frame as a heat sink and by carefully managing power. If you push the machine with a desktop workload by running the likes of a 3-D game, an HD video transcode, or a multithreaded compile or benchmark, it will get too hot for your unprotected lap. The problem is compounded if you're charging the battery while making high demands on the hardware. However, in everyday interactive work, the newest, fastest 15-inch MacBook Pro is also the coolest (in temperature) and quietest notebook I've used.
Great job on the water cooled PC. If the case gets warm it's having "some" thermal effect.
Well it is interesting to define "some". I suspect though that the case is in fact designed to have some thermal impact. Just take the disk drive for example as that sits in a spot carved out specifically for it in the Aluminum pan.
Certainly this isn't a traditional heat sink but I can't see thermal coupling not happening.
Quote:
I doubt Apple wants to connect the hot parts to the case because that could lead to the case getting uncomfortably hot.
That is very true. But not all parts that need cooling get extremely hot.
Quote:
I gotcha now...I misunderstood, I thought you were refuting the heat conductive properties of aluminum.
As much I as I want Quad Core in a Macbook I realize the thermals aren't in my favor.
See this is the part I have trouble with, we really don't know what the thermals will be like on a new mobile process. If 32nm hits early like some suspect we could have quads late 2009 or early 2010. 32nm isn't required either if you think about it.
Here is the thought process; at 45nm intel is going to sell a dual core processor WITH AN INTEGRATED GPU!!!! GPUs are power hungery more so than an additional CPU core. It should be pretty obvious that another set of cores could be substituted for the GPU on the die. At 45nm this means an off board/chip GPU but that won't upset most Mac users.
So in my mind there is no technical road block to a quad core mobile processor from Intel. They just have to be willing to service customer needs. The question is will Arrandale have a twin brother with four cores intead of two plus GPU? That is a chip with the same exact pin outs to allow Apple to offer two or four core systems based on the same motherboard. This is key as I don't see Apple doing two different motherboards for each platform.
Going out on a limb here I'd say quad cores buy Feb. or March. If not sooner. I don't see such a chip running any hotter than a dual core plus GPU.
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
I am convinced that Leopard is built in a way that hobbles G4's (if only through ignorance or a focus on Intel). Waking from sleep the password splash is delayed because my Mail app is downloading or someother such...now that is just DAFT. Swapping between apps is lethargic and Safari is just absurdly bad in inter-tab interference (and swapping from tab to tab should happen fast, not be delayed by page downloading...anyone heard of focus priority? No, not in Safariland!)
Things that were sharp are now stuttering. I have 2GB, btw and "plenty of disk space" but 2nd kid on the way means I have other uses for £1500!
I am convinced that Leopard is built in a way that hobbles G4's (if only through ignorance or a focus on Intel).
This really isn't intentional but a side effect of moving forward. The reality is all PPC chips had very poor integer performance and such performance is critical to a snappy OS. Intel processor just allow Apple to do things OS wise they couldn't do before due to the lack of processor power.
One of the reasons I never purchased a PPC based Mac is that I did not believe the reality distortion field. Or maybe better saw through it. There is a reason why Apple focused so much on floating point and vector operations of the PPC chips and it wasn't because it was important to most users.
Quote:
Waking from sleep the password splash is delayed because my Mail app is downloading or someother such...now that is just DAFT. Swapping between apps is lethargic and Safari is just absurdly bad in inter-tab interference (and swapping from tab to tab should happen fast, not be delayed by page downloading...anyone heard of focus priority? No, not in Safariland!)
Sounds like a heavily loaded CPU. It isn't a problem on my early 2008 MBP with similar RAM. Frankly though I have this fear that SL will leave me in the same situation you are in now. Not enough horse power to run modern apps in two years or so.
You really only have three choices. 1. Buy a new computer. 2. Try different apps like Firefox. 3. Install Linux, realizing though that even Linux would see that hardware as being old and slow.
Quote:
Things that were sharp are now stuttering. I have 2GB, btw and "plenty of disk space" but 2nd kid on the way means I have other uses for £1500!
Sorry about the kid on the way, I had nothing to do with that .
In any event it might be a good time to earn a little extra before the kid arrives. You won't have time afterwards and a new computer should really be on your list as a G4 is old history. Snow Leopard is going to leave you completely behind.
It is sad but I can't remember how many of the computers I've owned over the years became useless as software advanced or died out. The Vic 20 was gone befor I even got use to it, the Heath CPM / MDOS machine was nice for a few years (learned alot on that machine), the MacPlus I milked for as long as I could after which came a bunch of ATX hardware. So I understand your pain.
I do know one thing though I timed my move back to Apple hardware just right, Leopard has been impressive. Basically the advantages of Linux but the quality and services of Apple. So I can only say finding a way to new hardware is more than worthwhile.
I am running Leopard on the last generation of 17" Powerbook made.
I have to say that this notebook ages so well, that I have yet to feel the need to replace it. That being said, Apple has brought obsolescence to it with the next OS. Still, I will not feel compelled to purchase a new system until it has a fast quad core CPU. probably not until rev B either due to Apples pricing schemes.
I am running Leopard on the last generation of 17" Powerbook made.
I have to say that this notebook ages so well, that I have yet to feel the need to replace it. That being said, Apple has brought obsolescence to it with the next OS. Still, I will not feel compelled to purchase a new system until it has a fast quad core CPU. probably not until rev B either due to Apples pricing schemes.
It's not as if Leopard support is going to go away the day SL ships. Security patches will still be released for Leopard. Most third party developers support the current and previous release.
If you must have the latest OS, then you will have to replace the computer. Because of the trade-offs, I don't expect a quad core Mac notebook for at least a year anyway.
I think and really hope to see, an update of the MBP line in october, after the relase of Snow Leopard. I´m paciently waiting for a new uMBP 17" with antiglare screen, Nehalem i7 Arrandale , 1 TB HDD, and GTX 260 or 280 1GB Video RAM to replace my 4 year old MBP.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
I think and really hope to see, an update of the MBP line in october, after the relase of Snow Leopard. I´m paciently waiting for a new uMBP 17" with antiglare screen, Nehalem i7 Arrandale , 1 TB HDD, and GTX 260 or 280 1GB Video RAM to replace my 4 year old MBP.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
What do I need to do, start charging you for bandwidth?
I think and really hope to see, an update of the MBP line in october, after the relase of Snow Leopard. I´m paciently waiting for a new uMBP 17" with antiglare screen, Nehalem i7 Arrandale , 1 TB HDD, and GTX 260 or 280 1GB Video RAM to replace my 4 year old MBP.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
When that upgrade option comes, I'll be the first to upgrade!
Comments
"Convection" cooling via air transfer to the case probably adds a Watt or two at most to the machine's cooling capacity. It certainly does better than plastic would, but the cooling advantage of aluminum over plastic is mainly that it allows the machine to be made thinner without compromising the size of the actual heatsinks they can cram in it.
Tauron is incorrect. The Macbook Pro's case is not its heatsink. There is no thermal interface between the "hot" parts of the MBP- the chips- and the aluminum body. If you go to iFixit's disassembly guide, you can see the actual heatsinks, attached to the motherboard as in this picture. Fans blow through them and out the back of the case. There's some foamy stuff between the fans and the case that is mostly for vibration dampening.
"Convection" cooling via air transfer to the case probably adds a Watt or two at most to the machine's cooling capacity. It certainly does better than plastic would, but the cooling advantage of aluminum over plastic is mainly that it allows the machine to be made thinner without compromising the size of the actual heatsinks they can cram in it.
That's what I want to explain to Mr. I'mma-zo-cleva-acronym-user
I'm doing custom watercooled PC's for several years and I know what I'm talking about.
MBP's case isn't connected to heatsink and it doesn't play any big role in cooling.
You not being able to understand that doesn't make it "nonsense ..pure nonsense".
Great job on the water cooled PC. If the case gets warm it's having "some" thermal effect. I doubt Apple wants to connect the hot parts to the case because that could lead to the case getting uncomfortably hot. I gotcha now...I misunderstood, I thought you were refuting the heat conductive properties of aluminum.
As much I as I want Quad Core in a Macbook I realize the thermals aren't in my favor.
Wrong
Apple states that the alum body allows it to use more powerful chips and drives . The plastic model couldn't handle it .
I Quote and link a YATES articles below ,so dude please don't make stuff up. Ok . Thank you
>>>>>>>
JULY 07, 2009
MacBook Pro soars to new heights
es
By Tom Yager | InfoWorld
Quick, cool, and roomy
The MacBook Pro is a machine with desktop specs. The 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 1,066MHz DDR3 memory, and dual Nvidia GPUs inevitably contribute heat to the design. A plastic PC notebook with similar power would need a noisy fan just to survive. I don't have a PC notebook in this class that I can bear to share a room with, much less have in my lap. The MacBook Pro runs cool and silent the majority of the time by using its aluminum frame as a heat sink and by carefully managing power. If you push the machine with a desktop workload by running the likes of a 3-D game, an HD video transcode, or a multithreaded compile or benchmark, it will get too hot for your unprotected lap. The problem is compounded if you're charging the battery while making high demands on the hardware. However, in everyday interactive work, the newest, fastest 15-inch MacBook Pro is also the coolest (in temperature) and quietest notebook I've used.
http://www.infoworld.com/d/hardware/...0,1&sr=hotnews
>>>>>>>>>>>
The MBP doubles as a room cooler.
9
READ my post
your wrong .The alum body does cool .
Great job on the water cooled PC. If the case gets warm it's having "some" thermal effect.
Well it is interesting to define "some". I suspect though that the case is in fact designed to have some thermal impact. Just take the disk drive for example as that sits in a spot carved out specifically for it in the Aluminum pan.
Certainly this isn't a traditional heat sink but I can't see thermal coupling not happening.
I doubt Apple wants to connect the hot parts to the case because that could lead to the case getting uncomfortably hot.
That is very true. But not all parts that need cooling get extremely hot.
I gotcha now...I misunderstood, I thought you were refuting the heat conductive properties of aluminum.
As much I as I want Quad Core in a Macbook I realize the thermals aren't in my favor.
See this is the part I have trouble with, we really don't know what the thermals will be like on a new mobile process. If 32nm hits early like some suspect we could have quads late 2009 or early 2010. 32nm isn't required either if you think about it.
Here is the thought process; at 45nm intel is going to sell a dual core processor WITH AN INTEGRATED GPU!!!! GPUs are power hungery more so than an additional CPU core. It should be pretty obvious that another set of cores could be substituted for the GPU on the die. At 45nm this means an off board/chip GPU but that won't upset most Mac users.
So in my mind there is no technical road block to a quad core mobile processor from Intel. They just have to be willing to service customer needs. The question is will Arrandale have a twin brother with four cores intead of two plus GPU? That is a chip with the same exact pin outs to allow Apple to offer two or four core systems based on the same motherboard. This is key as I don't see Apple doing two different motherboards for each platform.
Going out on a limb here I'd say quad cores buy Feb. or March. If not sooner. I don't see such a chip running any hotter than a dual core plus GPU.
Dave
Thanks for the insight everyone!
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
I am convinced that Leopard is built in a way that hobbles G4's (if only through ignorance or a focus on Intel). Waking from sleep the password splash is delayed because my Mail app is downloading or someother such...now that is just DAFT. Swapping between apps is lethargic and Safari is just absurdly bad in inter-tab interference (and swapping from tab to tab should happen fast, not be delayed by page downloading...anyone heard of focus priority? No, not in Safariland!)
Things that were sharp are now stuttering. I have 2GB, btw and "plenty of disk space" but 2nd kid on the way means I have other uses for £1500!
I am convinced that Leopard is built in a way that hobbles G4's (if only through ignorance or a focus on Intel).
This really isn't intentional but a side effect of moving forward. The reality is all PPC chips had very poor integer performance and such performance is critical to a snappy OS. Intel processor just allow Apple to do things OS wise they couldn't do before due to the lack of processor power.
One of the reasons I never purchased a PPC based Mac is that I did not believe the reality distortion field. Or maybe better saw through it. There is a reason why Apple focused so much on floating point and vector operations of the PPC chips and it wasn't because it was important to most users.
Waking from sleep the password splash is delayed because my Mail app is downloading or someother such...now that is just DAFT. Swapping between apps is lethargic and Safari is just absurdly bad in inter-tab interference (and swapping from tab to tab should happen fast, not be delayed by page downloading...anyone heard of focus priority? No, not in Safariland!)
Sounds like a heavily loaded CPU. It isn't a problem on my early 2008 MBP with similar RAM. Frankly though I have this fear that SL will leave me in the same situation you are in now. Not enough horse power to run modern apps in two years or so.
You really only have three choices. 1. Buy a new computer. 2. Try different apps like Firefox. 3. Install Linux, realizing though that even Linux would see that hardware as being old and slow.
Things that were sharp are now stuttering. I have 2GB, btw and "plenty of disk space" but 2nd kid on the way means I have other uses for £1500!
Sorry about the kid on the way, I had nothing to do with that
In any event it might be a good time to earn a little extra before the kid arrives. You won't have time afterwards and a new computer should really be on your list as a G4 is old history. Snow Leopard is going to leave you completely behind.
It is sad but I can't remember how many of the computers I've owned over the years became useless as software advanced or died out. The Vic 20 was gone befor I even got use to it, the Heath CPM / MDOS machine was nice for a few years (learned alot on that machine), the MacPlus I milked for as long as I could after which came a bunch of ATX hardware. So I understand your pain.
I do know one thing though I timed my move back to Apple hardware just right, Leopard has been impressive. Basically the advantages of Linux but the quality and services of Apple. So I can only say finding a way to new hardware is more than worthwhile.
Dave
I have to say that this notebook ages so well, that I have yet to feel the need to replace it. That being said, Apple has brought obsolescence to it with the next OS. Still, I will not feel compelled to purchase a new system until it has a fast quad core CPU. probably not until rev B either due to Apples pricing schemes.
I am running Leopard on the last generation of 17" Powerbook made.
I have to say that this notebook ages so well, that I have yet to feel the need to replace it. That being said, Apple has brought obsolescence to it with the next OS. Still, I will not feel compelled to purchase a new system until it has a fast quad core CPU. probably not until rev B either due to Apples pricing schemes.
It's not as if Leopard support is going to go away the day SL ships. Security patches will still be released for Leopard. Most third party developers support the current and previous release.
If you must have the latest OS, then you will have to replace the computer. Because of the trade-offs, I don't expect a quad core Mac notebook for at least a year anyway.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
I think and really hope to see, an update of the MBP line in october, after the relase of Snow Leopard. I´m paciently waiting for a new uMBP 17" with antiglare screen, Nehalem i7 Arrandale , 1 TB HDD, and GTX 260 or 280 1GB Video RAM to replace my 4 year old MBP.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
What do I need to do, start charging you for bandwidth?
That's what I want to explain to Mr. I'mma-zo-cleva-acronym-user
Sorry, he's not in because he's lecturing the kid next door on acronyms and metaphors. Can I take a message?
I think and really hope to see, an update of the MBP line in october, after the relase of Snow Leopard. I´m paciently waiting for a new uMBP 17" with antiglare screen, Nehalem i7 Arrandale , 1 TB HDD, and GTX 260 or 280 1GB Video RAM to replace my 4 year old MBP.
\t
Don´t you believe it would be a wonderful MBP that would allow us to work on the road editing video, manipulating images in the way that we deserve?
\t
I think a MBP with these characteristics and according to what we know about Snow Leopard, will give us the performance that Apple owes us as we are faithful users.
The problem is that for some reason, we the loyal Apple users, get always the same thing, we have a beautiful design, an impressive OS and laptops well built, but in terms of technical details regarding the processor and video cards, we usually are relegate with respect to the supply available on PC market.
When that upgrade option comes, I'll be the first to upgrade!
That's what I want to explain to Mr. I'mma-zo-cleva-acronym-user
It would help if your reply wasn't a lame comeback.