Hey! Who said competition isn't good for bringing prices down. Way to go Microsoft! Yeah! And, you know what? This Zune even looks nice. I can imagine business people really liking this thing.
And why would business people "really like this thing"?
Again, once the new iPods arrive this thing'll be dead in the water. No apps, no phone functionality - yet another "me too" attempt by MS that's about 3 years too late.
This isn't even competition. It's just sad. You can't arrive with an "adequate competitor" to the iPod. Just like with the iPhone, it can't be on par or adequare. It has to be vastly superior from the get-go and offer an entirely new experience.
Ms can't design. MS can't market. MS can't do any meaningful R&D in the consumer sector.
That's of course especially difficult to exploit effectively, existing as it does only in your head.
Well put.
It seems the Zune HD may be a precursor to a true Windows Phone, with WinMob 7 of course. Zune is at least shaping up to be a more credible platform for a phone vs. the early generations. Cross platform integration (i.e. Mac OS, or Google Chrome har har) would be a nice gesture, though MSFT is so big they might not have the motivation just yet.
It seems the Zune HD may be a precursor to a true Windows Phone, with WinMob 7 of course. Zune is at least shaping up to be a more credible platform for a phone vs. the early generations. Cross platform integration (i.e. Mac OS, or Google Chrome har har) would be a nice gesture, though MSFT is so big they might not have the motivation just yet.
Can Apple make a profit selling at those price point? Apple doesn't have a monopoly to fund money losing products. Apple can't afford to sell money losing products like the Zune which was introduced in 2006 and has lost money ever since.
It's not that Apple can't afford it... Apple can run for almost an entire year giving away millions of products for free just by what they have in cash.
Apple doesn't sell or make products that can't hold their own without the need of being subsidized by some other product or division. If they're losing money or not making some kind of an impact, they're phased out.
I've made this point in pretty much every ZuneHD thread, but I never seem to get a response, so let me try again:
Does anyone have any evidence to suggest the ZuneHD competes with the Touch as a small, handheld computer?
I constantly see people getting all excited about the Zune because it has a touch screen and animations between screens and, um, big fonts, but everything I've seen so far suggests the functionality of previous Zunes (which is to say pre-Touch iPods) with nicer transitions and better graphics. Which would make it the kick-ass Nano that Apple doesn't make, but little more.
Now it obviously has the processing heft to run a real OS and real apps, etc., but so far I've seen nothing to confirm that. I believe I've seen it said that the ZuneHD OS is a gussied up WinCE, so even if MS intends it to do the full on OS thing, is there any reason to believe that a WinCE based device makes a good OS X mobile competitor? Has anyone seen anything at all to suggest that MS has created a device with the kind of OS that makes the Touch such a great handheld?
Because it seems way more likely to me that the ZuneHD is yet another stopgap product from MS-- nicer hardware, to be sure, and decent screen animations, but beyond that what? A browser bolted on? A few apps or games included just to pretend to be competitive? How will such additions be accessed? From the same jumbo text list based UI that we've seen?
Finally, if MS has, in fact, done a massive reworking of WinCE to make it competitive with modern mobile operating systems, then where is WinMob 7? Wouldn't a true Touch competitor simply be WinMob 7 without the phone app and radio? Which is to say, if MS had a true Touch competitor ready to go then they would have WinMob 7 ready to go, and they don't so they don't.
I think there is going to be some major hurt coming for Microsoft. to be honest, I think they became obsolete the day that businesses no longer needed to buy an expensive new machine to run the latest version of office. Now, you are seeing M$'s top end being eaten by apple, their bottom end is OEM licenses of their new operating system being sold with new pcs, and although anyone with Vista will be motivated to switch to 7- let's get real- 29$ for Snow Leopard with superior technolgoy is going to turn some press apple's way.
The fact is M$ cannot survive if the pc market slows down, ad new up graders of operating systems are just not the majority of pc users. Most people just use whatever feature-crippled version of vista home came with their pc.
And this idea that they are limiting the speed of 7 on low end netbooks- are you kidding me? They should be worried about marketshare, not worrying about trying to stop $300 netbooks from being made with their operating system on them.
I've made this point in pretty much every ZuneHD thread, but I never seem to get a response, so let me try again:
Does anyone have any evidence to suggest the ZuneHD competes with the Touch as a small, handheld computer?
I constantly see people getting all excited about the Zune because it has a touch screen and animations between screens and, um, big fonts, but everything I've seen so far suggests the functionality of previous Zunes (which is to say pre-Touch iPods) with nicer transitions and better graphics. Which would make it the kick-ass Nano that Apple doesn't make, but little more.
Now it obviously has the processing heft to run a real OS and real apps, etc., but so far I've seen nothing to confirm that. I believe I've seen it said that the ZuneHD OS is a gussied up WinCE, so even if MS intends it to do the full on OS thing, is there any reason to believe that a WinCE based device makes a good OS X mobile competitor? Has anyone seen anything at all to suggest that MS has created a device with the kind of OS that makes the Touch such a great handheld?
Because it seems way more likely to me that the ZuneHD is yet another stopgap product from MS-- nicer hardware, to be sure, and decent screen animations, but beyond that what? A browser bolted on? A few apps or games included just to pretend to be competitive? How will such additions be accessed? From the same jumbo text list based UI that we've seen?
Finally, if MS has, in fact, done a massive reworking of WinCE to make it competitive with modern mobile operating systems, then where is WinMob 7? Wouldn't a true Touch competitor simply be WinMob 7 without the phone app and radio? Which is to say, if MS had a true Touch competitor ready to go then they would have WinMob 7 ready to go, and they don't so they don't.
Whatever OS MS may have running the Zune doesn't seem to matter to the user. Unless the OS is needed for music/video player functions. It's difficult to believe that.
But, the longer MS waits to bring the OS to the user in a way that it's useful AS an OS, the less chance MS has for exploiting it.
According to MS's own figures the last quarter, they sold 43% less Zunes than the last years quarter. This is a major problem for them. They need much better sales than they have now just to get back where they were a year before.
How are they going to do that?
So far, none of the "features" they've go that supposedly go beyond what the iPod has, has helped. The "Social" is a failure. The tuner hasn't helped. The marketplace isn't selling much because of the low sales of the Zunes.
Where do they go from here?
If this years new model did expose the OS to the user the way the Touch does, then they could do something serious, but it doesn't seem to.
If they wait until next year, it will likely be too late.
Exactly. The only thing that can possibly be worse than Windows is a stripped out Windows.
There's some misunderstanding here, and it's pretty prevalent. In some ways, MS's marketing does work.
Neither CE or Win Mobile are Windows.
Both are entirely different OS's that are deliberately designed to LOOK like Windows.
Whereas the iPhone OS is a stripped down version of OS X designed to run on ARM, MS's versions have little, if no code, in common with Windows.
These are much simpler OS's, which is why MS is having so many problems bringing them up to speed.
Apple strips out everything that isn't needed on their handheld platform, but leaves the rest in, and adds the new GUI, as well as a lot on API's designed specifically for the platform. Its a far richer OS to build upon.
Seriously, for that extra $100, you get access to the app store and Apple support. What do you get with a Microsoft product besides being shafted? And as many others have pointed out, the next iPod touches will either be cheaper, or much improved or both. This is just Microsoft pissing away more of their cash just because they can.
Also My teenage daughter has never seen another teenager with a Zune anything. iPods, Sandisks, some other nonames, but never a Zune. Who will actually want this?
If they actually came out with something that wasn't just a copy of what Apple has had for years, then it might generate interest. But this is not it.
Seriously, for that extra $100, you get access to the app store and Apple support. What do you get with a Microsoft product besides being shafted? And as many others have pointed out, the next iPod touches will either be cheaper, or much improved or both. This is just Microsoft pissing away more of their cash just because they can.
Also My teenage daughter has never seen another teenager with a Zune anything. iPods, Sandisks, some other nonames, but never a Zune. Who will actually want this?
If they actually came out with something that wasn't just a copy of what Apple has had for years, then it might generate interest. But this is not it.
We don't know if it's going to be much cheaper. This is a new Zune product being matched up against last years Touch product. If Apple does what it's always done before, in just three weeks or so they will announce this years new line, which will double the memory at the same price point.
While we don't know this for a fact, we do know that MS doesn't really want to sell this at a big loss. Therefor, it's not likely that the price will be more than $10 less than Apple's. not much of an incentive.
There's some misunderstanding here, and it's pretty prevalent. In some ways, MS's marketing does work.
Neither CE or Win Mobile are Windows.
Both are entirely different OS's that are deliberately designed to LOOK like Windows.
Whereas the iPhone OS is a stripped down version of OS X designed to run on ARM, MS's versions have little, if no code, in common with Windows.
These are much simpler OS's, which is why MS is having so many problems bringing them up to speed.
Apple strips out everything that isn't needed on their handheld platform, but leaves the rest in, and adds the new GUI, as well as a lot on API's designed specifically for the platform. Its a far richer OS to build upon.
Which brings up a point I've been making since the release of the original iPhone: Apple created a version of OS X that can run on mobile devices. Given the pace of hardware improvements, there's nothing but upside for Apple as their mobile offerings come to be able to handle more and more functionality. It's not like a phone is going to be able to outstrip what OS X can do any time soon, and moreover they can offer the user a smooth continuum from their tiniest palmtops right up to the workstation class pro machines.
Whereas the people dragging forward their legacy operating systems, designed back when to run on constrained hardware, are obliged to try and figure out how to bolt on new stuff to take advantage of new hardware and new competitors, and will be stuck with a built-in divide between such devices and more capable machines running desktop class software.
It's funny, too, because the folks on the tech sites are fixated on how the Tegra chipset is so badass it surely yield awesomeness, apparently unaware that all the silicon grunt in the world is useless without good software. You get the impression that they think "Tegra" magically makes software happen.
I think for most of the users here, this "Zune vs iPod War" doesn't matter. MS refuses to make the Zune compatible with OSX, so every Mac user is already set on the iPod or maybe something like the Archos.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.
Comments
Hey! Who said competition isn't good for bringing prices down. Way to go Microsoft! Yeah! And, you know what? This Zune even looks nice. I can imagine business people really liking this thing.
And why would business people "really like this thing"?
This isn't even competition. It's just sad. You can't arrive with an "adequate competitor" to the iPod. Just like with the iPhone, it can't be on par or adequare. It has to be vastly superior from the get-go and offer an entirely new experience.
Ms can't design. MS can't market. MS can't do any meaningful R&D in the consumer sector.
That's of course especially difficult to exploit effectively, existing as it does only in your head.
Well put.
It seems the Zune HD may be a precursor to a true Windows Phone, with WinMob 7 of course. Zune is at least shaping up to be a more credible platform for a phone vs. the early generations. Cross platform integration (i.e. Mac OS, or Google Chrome har har) would be a nice gesture, though MSFT is so big they might not have the motivation just yet.
It seems the Zune HD may be a precursor to a true Windows Phone, with WinMob 7 of course. Zune is at least shaping up to be a more credible platform for a phone vs. the early generations. Cross platform integration (i.e. Mac OS, or Google Chrome har har) would be a nice gesture, though MSFT is so big they might not have the motivation just yet.
Microsoft: "Skating to where the pick was."
Is this really a fact, or just some bullshit you just dreamed up?
I think he was kidding.
Can Apple make a profit selling at those price point? Apple doesn't have a monopoly to fund money losing products. Apple can't afford to sell money losing products like the Zune which was introduced in 2006 and has lost money ever since.
It's not that Apple can't afford it... Apple can run for almost an entire year giving away millions of products for free just by what they have in cash.
Apple doesn't sell or make products that can't hold their own without the need of being subsidized by some other product or division. If they're losing money or not making some kind of an impact, they're phased out.
Does anyone have any evidence to suggest the ZuneHD competes with the Touch as a small, handheld computer?
I constantly see people getting all excited about the Zune because it has a touch screen and animations between screens and, um, big fonts, but everything I've seen so far suggests the functionality of previous Zunes (which is to say pre-Touch iPods) with nicer transitions and better graphics. Which would make it the kick-ass Nano that Apple doesn't make, but little more.
Now it obviously has the processing heft to run a real OS and real apps, etc., but so far I've seen nothing to confirm that. I believe I've seen it said that the ZuneHD OS is a gussied up WinCE, so even if MS intends it to do the full on OS thing, is there any reason to believe that a WinCE based device makes a good OS X mobile competitor? Has anyone seen anything at all to suggest that MS has created a device with the kind of OS that makes the Touch such a great handheld?
Because it seems way more likely to me that the ZuneHD is yet another stopgap product from MS-- nicer hardware, to be sure, and decent screen animations, but beyond that what? A browser bolted on? A few apps or games included just to pretend to be competitive? How will such additions be accessed? From the same jumbo text list based UI that we've seen?
Finally, if MS has, in fact, done a massive reworking of WinCE to make it competitive with modern mobile operating systems, then where is WinMob 7? Wouldn't a true Touch competitor simply be WinMob 7 without the phone app and radio? Which is to say, if MS had a true Touch competitor ready to go then they would have WinMob 7 ready to go, and they don't so they don't.
The fact is M$ cannot survive if the pc market slows down, ad new up graders of operating systems are just not the majority of pc users. Most people just use whatever feature-crippled version of vista home came with their pc.
And this idea that they are limiting the speed of 7 on low end netbooks- are you kidding me? They should be worried about marketshare, not worrying about trying to stop $300 netbooks from being made with their operating system on them.
I've made this point in pretty much every ZuneHD thread, but I never seem to get a response, so let me try again:
Does anyone have any evidence to suggest the ZuneHD competes with the Touch as a small, handheld computer?
I constantly see people getting all excited about the Zune because it has a touch screen and animations between screens and, um, big fonts, but everything I've seen so far suggests the functionality of previous Zunes (which is to say pre-Touch iPods) with nicer transitions and better graphics. Which would make it the kick-ass Nano that Apple doesn't make, but little more.
Now it obviously has the processing heft to run a real OS and real apps, etc., but so far I've seen nothing to confirm that. I believe I've seen it said that the ZuneHD OS is a gussied up WinCE, so even if MS intends it to do the full on OS thing, is there any reason to believe that a WinCE based device makes a good OS X mobile competitor? Has anyone seen anything at all to suggest that MS has created a device with the kind of OS that makes the Touch such a great handheld?
Because it seems way more likely to me that the ZuneHD is yet another stopgap product from MS-- nicer hardware, to be sure, and decent screen animations, but beyond that what? A browser bolted on? A few apps or games included just to pretend to be competitive? How will such additions be accessed? From the same jumbo text list based UI that we've seen?
Finally, if MS has, in fact, done a massive reworking of WinCE to make it competitive with modern mobile operating systems, then where is WinMob 7? Wouldn't a true Touch competitor simply be WinMob 7 without the phone app and radio? Which is to say, if MS had a true Touch competitor ready to go then they would have WinMob 7 ready to go, and they don't so they don't.
Whatever OS MS may have running the Zune doesn't seem to matter to the user. Unless the OS is needed for music/video player functions. It's difficult to believe that.
But, the longer MS waits to bring the OS to the user in a way that it's useful AS an OS, the less chance MS has for exploiting it.
According to MS's own figures the last quarter, they sold 43% less Zunes than the last years quarter. This is a major problem for them. They need much better sales than they have now just to get back where they were a year before.
How are they going to do that?
So far, none of the "features" they've go that supposedly go beyond what the iPod has, has helped. The "Social" is a failure. The tuner hasn't helped. The marketplace isn't selling much because of the low sales of the Zunes.
Where do they go from here?
If this years new model did expose the OS to the user the way the Touch does, then they could do something serious, but it doesn't seem to.
If they wait until next year, it will likely be too late.
Once they move out of the area of their monopolies, they're no better than anyone else, and usually worse, despite their money.
Well said. And even their OS monopoly (or near-monopoly) was not achieved by dint of their own skills and talents. It was gifted to them by IBM.
Well said. And even their OS monopoly (or near-monopoly) was not achieved by dint of their own skills and talents. It was gifted to them by IBM.
Yeah, that's a whole complicated story, involving deception, threats, illegal behavior, Federal lawsuits etc.
Not a pretty history.
WinCE. Run for your lives!!!
Exactly. The only thing that can possibly be worse than Windows is a stripped out Windows.
Exactly. The only thing that can possibly be worse than Windows is a stripped out Windows.
There's some misunderstanding here, and it's pretty prevalent. In some ways, MS's marketing does work.
Neither CE or Win Mobile are Windows.
Both are entirely different OS's that are deliberately designed to LOOK like Windows.
Whereas the iPhone OS is a stripped down version of OS X designed to run on ARM, MS's versions have little, if no code, in common with Windows.
These are much simpler OS's, which is why MS is having so many problems bringing them up to speed.
Apple strips out everything that isn't needed on their handheld platform, but leaves the rest in, and adds the new GUI, as well as a lot on API's designed specifically for the platform. Its a far richer OS to build upon.
Also My teenage daughter has never seen another teenager with a Zune anything. iPods, Sandisks, some other nonames, but never a Zune. Who will actually want this?
If they actually came out with something that wasn't just a copy of what Apple has had for years, then it might generate interest. But this is not it.
They also don't have to price in an OLED display. How can MS be making money from this thing at that price?
They are not. They lost > $6 Billion on the XBox before they made a dollar.
They will attempt to do the same with the new Zune.
This is classic Bill Gates thinking.
Unfortunately, such thinking actually working in this space has zero traction.
Seriously, for that extra $100, you get access to the app store and Apple support. What do you get with a Microsoft product besides being shafted? And as many others have pointed out, the next iPod touches will either be cheaper, or much improved or both. This is just Microsoft pissing away more of their cash just because they can.
Also My teenage daughter has never seen another teenager with a Zune anything. iPods, Sandisks, some other nonames, but never a Zune. Who will actually want this?
If they actually came out with something that wasn't just a copy of what Apple has had for years, then it might generate interest. But this is not it.
We don't know if it's going to be much cheaper. This is a new Zune product being matched up against last years Touch product. If Apple does what it's always done before, in just three weeks or so they will announce this years new line, which will double the memory at the same price point.
While we don't know this for a fact, we do know that MS doesn't really want to sell this at a big loss. Therefor, it's not likely that the price will be more than $10 less than Apple's. not much of an incentive.
There's some misunderstanding here, and it's pretty prevalent. In some ways, MS's marketing does work.
Neither CE or Win Mobile are Windows.
Both are entirely different OS's that are deliberately designed to LOOK like Windows.
Whereas the iPhone OS is a stripped down version of OS X designed to run on ARM, MS's versions have little, if no code, in common with Windows.
These are much simpler OS's, which is why MS is having so many problems bringing them up to speed.
Apple strips out everything that isn't needed on their handheld platform, but leaves the rest in, and adds the new GUI, as well as a lot on API's designed specifically for the platform. Its a far richer OS to build upon.
Which brings up a point I've been making since the release of the original iPhone: Apple created a version of OS X that can run on mobile devices. Given the pace of hardware improvements, there's nothing but upside for Apple as their mobile offerings come to be able to handle more and more functionality. It's not like a phone is going to be able to outstrip what OS X can do any time soon, and moreover they can offer the user a smooth continuum from their tiniest palmtops right up to the workstation class pro machines.
Whereas the people dragging forward their legacy operating systems, designed back when to run on constrained hardware, are obliged to try and figure out how to bolt on new stuff to take advantage of new hardware and new competitors, and will be stuck with a built-in divide between such devices and more capable machines running desktop class software.
It's funny, too, because the folks on the tech sites are fixated on how the Tegra chipset is so badass it surely yield awesomeness, apparently unaware that all the silicon grunt in the world is useless without good software. You get the impression that they think "Tegra" magically makes software happen.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.