On a side note, This is one of the ways MS trips up trying to satisfy all the 'legacy' crap hardware/software produced in the past. I applaud Apple for doing this.
I have 2 original Apple intel's (laptop & iMac) with no signs of slowing down going into their 4th year. Thats pretty good value. I almost wish they would break so I can justify getting the new iMac and an MBA!
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future.
It is a very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs.
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren?t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS? Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don?t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It?s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn?t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer?s needs.
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to creating new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future and for less money.
It is very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs. One needs to take a 'big picture' view of Apple's approach. Or better yet, resign one's self to the fact that Apple's PHD's know a little more than we do....I have and it is a lot easier, not complaining all the time.
I think this is the most intelligent post anyone has made regarding Apple's decision to drop PowerPC support in Snow Leopard. Very well thought out argument. I never opposed the end of PowerPC but this makes the decision look even smarter.
You really think all those design and audio/visual shops using PPC computers will just throw them away to use Snow Leopard because it only costs $29?? LOL!
No, but Apple is probably selling more Intel Macs per quarter than they sold in a year when they only had PPC. And there aren't many PPCs newer than 3 years old, Apple replaced the G5 Quad three years ago this month. Most people replace their computers when it's about 4 to 5 years years old, and that remaining slice is a small percentage of Apple's potential market. Does it really make sense to still support them with the new OS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoobs
Not because it's $29, but because they are getting into the point at which they can replace the machines for tax purposes, and most are no longer covered by their warranties.
The company I work for has a publishing arm, and they're about to replace all of their Apple hardware because the G5's are all out of warranty, have zero book value to the business, and they can get tax breaks by buying this year. When they do purchase, all the machines will likely be running SL.
Companies don't like having lots of old unsupported hardware around - of the machines we have at least 80% of the G5's have started to have major hardware issues the last few months, most of it we've gotten around, but the time has come to move on.
If the machine is actually flaking out, then that's a legitimate reason to replace. Another legitimate reason to replace is if the additional performance of the new units and new software pays for itself. But does the warranty support really figure into it in a rational manner? I don't know about you, but my computers aren't any less reliable outside of warranty than inside, and either way, failures are very rare once you've gotten infant mortality out of the way. Come to think of it, I don't remember the last time an out of warranty computer broke on me. At worst, it's a hard drive acting up, and that doesn't require the manufacturer's help to replace.
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren’t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS’ Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don’t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It’s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn’t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer’s needs.
Well said and something I had not considered, 'Businesses requiring legacy support more than consumers.'
I was following the thought of Stoob's post where he said his company was trading in their G5's and I thought that was the smart thing to do. Upgrading for better machines/software and although it is an added expense it would, no doubt, increase productivity.
I take your point though, of Windows world with expensive proprietary software which would be too expensive for a rewrite.
I think this is the most intelligent post anyone has made regarding Apple's decision to drop PowerPC support in Snow Leopard. Very well thought out argument. I never opposed the end of PowerPC but this makes the decision look even smarter.
(Actually, my girlfriend made mine, but you come in second and I doubt you?d want to do what she did to make my day. HAHA )
Quote:
'Businesses requiring legacy support more than consumers.'
I was following the thought of Stoob's post where he said his company was trading in their G5's and I thought that was the smart thing to do. Upgrading for better machines/software and although it is an added expense it would, no doubt, increase productivity.
I take your point, though of Windows world with expensive proprietary software.
Yes, Stoob?s company taking advantage of the tax breaks is a good deal. I didn?t mean to say that it wasn?t, just that there are legitimate reasons that will keep Windows sucky compared to OS X that also mean it will maintain a business dominance for the foreseeable future.
I would also imagine that Stoob?s company has also tested Snow Leopard (or will before upgrading to new Macs) to make sure that all the software they need is well tested and that their IT department is well versed in any OS changes. The other alternative is for Stoob?s company to install Leopard on these Macs (assuming they are running Leopard right now), but that option will end as soon as the Mac refresh happens.
(Actually, my girlfriend made mine, but you come in second and I doubt you’d want to do what she did to make my day. HAHA )
Yes, Stoob’s company taking advantage of the tax breaks is a good deal. I didn’t mean to say that it wasn’t, just that there are legitimate reasons that will keep Windows sucky compared to OS X that also mean it will maintain a business dominance for the foreseeable future.
I would also imagine that Stoob’s company has also tested Snow Leopard (or will before upgrading to new Macs) to make sure that all the software they need is well tested and that their IT department is well versed in any OS changes. The other alternative is for Stoob’s company to install Leopard on these Macs (assuming they are running Leopard right now), but that option will end as soon as the Mac refresh happens.
Yep, good points! and girlfriends are good too! Mine just made me a great sandwich!
That will, unfortunately, dramatically slow down the adoption of Snow Leopard and any software designed to run only with SL.
The truth is, few people buy operating systems on their own, period. Microsoft's primary customers are PC vendors, not consumers, because the average person is loathe to pay for software. The same is true for standalone copies of Mac OS X (except that Mac users tend to be more affluent, Macs tend to last longer, and thus, Mac users are more willing to pay for software because Apple makes great, yet reasonably priced software).
PowerPC Macs are a (shrinking) minority and they have been for a while now.
The user claims to have bought the Mac mini on Aug. 20th. If SL is released on the 28th, that's eight days early. I somehow doubt that a Mac mini shipped with an SL _main install_ disc that early. I remember selling a lot of Macs with upgrade discs for quite a while when Leopard was new. It was weeks until our store got Macs that actually had Leopard preinstalled. Granted, we're only an authorized reseller and not an Apple Store, but still... Apple's quite good at planning such releases. A day early: Okay. Two days? Surprising, but okay. Eight days? No. The user has any interest in SL, so he's taking pictures? In Japan? He'd film the installation process and end zooming on the build number and post that to the 'net. Since he legally bought a Mac mini that came with a 10.6 restore disc, it wouldn't even put him into trouble, so there's nothing to hide. It'd just be a nice surprise for him... So where's the video? Where's the build number?
That will, unfortunately, dramatically slow down the adoption of Snow Leopard and any software designed to run only with SL.
Many surveys and studies have revealed that owners of older computers are far less likely to upgrade either system software or application software. I'm sure Apple recognizes this and realizes that they aren't giving up all than many sales of Snow Leopard by going Intel-only. My hunch is that only a minority, perhaps small minority, of PPC machines are even running 10.5 today. If you were in that boat, would you spend $169 to upgrade the software on a computer that may be three to five years old?
You really think all those design and audio/visual shops using PPC computers will just throw them away to use Snow Leopard because it only costs $29?? LOL!
No, but they will move to Intel boxes when their applications go Intel-only. Apple has also recently released new versions of its pro media suites (e.g., Final Cut) that require Intel processors, so the same people you are talking about will need to move to Intel boxes to get that software.
They've had three years to plan for obsolescence.
Apple and other vendors have started a while back to migrating to Intel-only binaries. Apple doesn't update the previous version of the operating system (apart from a few security patches). I believe Apple dumped 64-bit Carbon, so Adobe wasn't able to ship a full 64-bit version of Photoshop the last time around.
I've heard rumors that this means that Snow Leopard will only be available in Japanese.
I never believed 10a423 was going to be GM since to my knowledge it didn't include an option to upgrade a 10.5 installation... maybe because my 10.5 installation is in English....
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren?t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS? Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don?t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It?s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn?t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer?s needs.
PS: Why did you reply to yourself?
However, 3rd party developers of complex OS X software applications are leaving PPC behind anyway. Adobe is the the most notable example.
Maybe I'm not paying attention but I've yet to hear of any software developer (and I think that includes Apple) state that their next revision of whatever is going to require OS X 10.6. Until that happens claims of dropping legacy support seem a bit premature.
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to creating new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future and for less money.
It is very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs. One needs to take a 'big picture' view of Apple's approach. Or better yet, resign one's self to the fact that Apple's PHD's know a little more than we do....I have and it is a lot easier, not complaining all the time.
Also, Apple's profit is largely based on hardware sales, certainly not sales of their operating system (something like 90% of computers owned by consumers run the same version of the operating system that they shipped with).
By quickly obsoleting older technology Apple drives sales of new systems.
Don't be stupid!. This was discussed zillion times. Many still don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob
Another ridiculous post from yet another cheap bazztaad.
Nice. When you have to resort to name calling, your argument isn't worth reading. Please don't reply if you can't avoid childish ad-hominem attacks. I'm making a valid point, there's no need to denigrate me personally.
yet no one has mentoned the discrepancy in the desktop wallpaper.
but it very likely could be a case of 10.5.7 being installed on that mini and he'd have to use his install disc to upgrade immediately... which is sorta unlike apple.
If Leopard is preinstalled then the restore discs should be Leopard 10.5. The Snow Leopard 10.6 drop-in disc would be in addition to that and upgrade-only, identical to the up-to-date disc people order for $9.95. In the past, these upgrade discs have had the retail artwork rather than gray or black because they are not model-specfic. However since this Japanese customer is not supposed to have Snow Leopard yet, this case could be a factory mixup and his restore disc doesn't match his hard drive image.
The desktop picture could be explained by inserting the disc into any Mac running Leopard and viewing its contents but not installing yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb510
I've heard rumors that this means that Snow Leopard will only be available in Japanese.
I never believed 10a423 was going to be GM since to my knowledge it didn't include an option to upgrade a 10.5 installation... maybe because my 10.5 installation is in English....
By all accounts 10a423 is fully functional and the only suspicious thing about it is its Welcome video is identical to 10.5. It's possible Apple didn't bother to make a new one since the 10.5 video doesn't refer to 10.5 or Leopard by name. If I remember correctly Apple used the same welcome video from 10.0 through 10.2
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper
I call FAKE!!!
The supposed 10.6 Disk photo has been Photoshopped.
The type angle doesn't all match.
Nice try!
They were clever enough to come up with a new and credible part number. A Google search for 2Z691-6492-A doesn't turn up anything but this picture. Googling for part numbers of a released install disc will get eBay hits because people sell them.
Apple has already stated the Snow Leopard is not a feature upgrade, but an optimization of Leopard. That is why the upgrade only costs $29.
There are no real new features, it just lets the new architecture run leaner and meaner and scraps the PPC architecture for the 90% of us that don't need it.
Comments
Your company's approach is smart!
On a side note, This is one of the ways MS trips up trying to satisfy all the 'legacy' crap hardware/software produced in the past. I applaud Apple for doing this.
I have 2 original Apple intel's (laptop & iMac) with no signs of slowing down going into their 4th year. Thats pretty good value. I almost wish they would break so I can justify getting the new iMac and an MBA!
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future.
It is a very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs.
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren?t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS? Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don?t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It?s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn?t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer?s needs.
PS: Why did you reply to yourself?
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to creating new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future and for less money.
It is very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs. One needs to take a 'big picture' view of Apple's approach. Or better yet, resign one's self to the fact that Apple's PHD's know a little more than we do....I have and it is a lot easier, not complaining all the time.
I think this is the most intelligent post anyone has made regarding Apple's decision to drop PowerPC support in Snow Leopard. Very well thought out argument. I never opposed the end of PowerPC but this makes the decision look even smarter.
PS: Why did you reply to yourself?
Because I was so impressed with my first post!
You really think all those design and audio/visual shops using PPC computers will just throw them away to use Snow Leopard because it only costs $29?? LOL!
No, but Apple is probably selling more Intel Macs per quarter than they sold in a year when they only had PPC. And there aren't many PPCs newer than 3 years old, Apple replaced the G5 Quad three years ago this month. Most people replace their computers when it's about 4 to 5 years years old, and that remaining slice is a small percentage of Apple's potential market. Does it really make sense to still support them with the new OS?
Not because it's $29, but because they are getting into the point at which they can replace the machines for tax purposes, and most are no longer covered by their warranties.
The company I work for has a publishing arm, and they're about to replace all of their Apple hardware because the G5's are all out of warranty, have zero book value to the business, and they can get tax breaks by buying this year. When they do purchase, all the machines will likely be running SL.
Companies don't like having lots of old unsupported hardware around - of the machines we have at least 80% of the G5's have started to have major hardware issues the last few months, most of it we've gotten around, but the time has come to move on.
If the machine is actually flaking out, then that's a legitimate reason to replace. Another legitimate reason to replace is if the additional performance of the new units and new software pays for itself. But does the warranty support really figure into it in a rational manner? I don't know about you, but my computers aren't any less reliable outside of warranty than inside, and either way, failures are very rare once you've gotten infant mortality out of the way. Come to think of it, I don't remember the last time an out of warranty computer broke on me. At worst, it's a hard drive acting up, and that doesn't require the manufacturer's help to replace.
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren’t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS’ Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don’t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It’s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn’t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer’s needs.
Well said and something I had not considered, 'Businesses requiring legacy support more than consumers.'
I was following the thought of Stoob's post where he said his company was trading in their G5's and I thought that was the smart thing to do. Upgrading for better machines/software and although it is an added expense it would, no doubt, increase productivity.
I take your point though, of Windows world with expensive proprietary software which would be too expensive for a rewrite.
I think this is the most intelligent post anyone has made regarding Apple's decision to drop PowerPC support in Snow Leopard. Very well thought out argument. I never opposed the end of PowerPC but this makes the decision look even smarter.
Thanks for the kind words! Made my day!
Well said and something I had not considered?.
And you made mine.
(Actually, my girlfriend made mine, but you come in second and I doubt you?d want to do what she did to make my day. HAHA
'Businesses requiring legacy support more than consumers.'
I was following the thought of Stoob's post where he said his company was trading in their G5's and I thought that was the smart thing to do. Upgrading for better machines/software and although it is an added expense it would, no doubt, increase productivity.
I take your point, though of Windows world with expensive proprietary software.
Yes, Stoob?s company taking advantage of the tax breaks is a good deal. I didn?t mean to say that it wasn?t, just that there are legitimate reasons that will keep Windows sucky compared to OS X that also mean it will maintain a business dominance for the foreseeable future.
I would also imagine that Stoob?s company has also tested Snow Leopard (or will before upgrading to new Macs) to make sure that all the software they need is well tested and that their IT department is well versed in any OS changes. The other alternative is for Stoob?s company to install Leopard on these Macs (assuming they are running Leopard right now), but that option will end as soon as the Mac refresh happens.
And you made mine.
(Actually, my girlfriend made mine, but you come in second and I doubt you’d want to do what she did to make my day. HAHA
Yes, Stoob’s company taking advantage of the tax breaks is a good deal. I didn’t mean to say that it wasn’t, just that there are legitimate reasons that will keep Windows sucky compared to OS X that also mean it will maintain a business dominance for the foreseeable future.
I would also imagine that Stoob’s company has also tested Snow Leopard (or will before upgrading to new Macs) to make sure that all the software they need is well tested and that their IT department is well versed in any OS changes. The other alternative is for Stoob’s company to install Leopard on these Macs (assuming they are running Leopard right now), but that option will end as soon as the Mac refresh happens.
Yep, good points! and girlfriends are good too!
That will, unfortunately, dramatically slow down the adoption of Snow Leopard and any software designed to run only with SL.
The truth is, few people buy operating systems on their own, period. Microsoft's primary customers are PC vendors, not consumers, because the average person is loathe to pay for software. The same is true for standalone copies of Mac OS X (except that Mac users tend to be more affluent, Macs tend to last longer, and thus, Mac users are more willing to pay for software because Apple makes great, yet reasonably priced software).
PowerPC Macs are a (shrinking) minority and they have been for a while now.
That will, unfortunately, dramatically slow down the adoption of Snow Leopard and any software designed to run only with SL.
Many surveys and studies have revealed that owners of older computers are far less likely to upgrade either system software or application software. I'm sure Apple recognizes this and realizes that they aren't giving up all than many sales of Snow Leopard by going Intel-only. My hunch is that only a minority, perhaps small minority, of PPC machines are even running 10.5 today. If you were in that boat, would you spend $169 to upgrade the software on a computer that may be three to five years old?
You really think all those design and audio/visual shops using PPC computers will just throw them away to use Snow Leopard because it only costs $29?? LOL!
No, but they will move to Intel boxes when their applications go Intel-only. Apple has also recently released new versions of its pro media suites (e.g., Final Cut) that require Intel processors, so the same people you are talking about will need to move to Intel boxes to get that software.
They've had three years to plan for obsolescence.
Apple and other vendors have started a while back to migrating to Intel-only binaries. Apple doesn't update the previous version of the operating system (apart from a few security patches). I believe Apple dumped 64-bit Carbon, so Adobe wasn't able to ship a full 64-bit version of Photoshop the last time around.
I never believed 10a423 was going to be GM since to my knowledge it didn't include an option to upgrade a 10.5 installation... maybe because my 10.5 installation is in English....
I agree that one reason why I like OS X is that they aren?t supporting nearly as much legacy code as Windows does. However, most businesses need that legacy support and MS? Windows business oriented OS means that they they have to support legacy HW and code. Apple will never be able to get a substantial foothold in the business sector as long as they are quick to drop legacy support and don?t allow 3rd-party PC makers to license their OS. It?s obvious that we have our Mac preference and I wish that all the Carbon was removed from Snow Leopard (which it hasn?t) but we also need to realize that these different business models both suit their customer?s needs.
PS: Why did you reply to yourself?
However, 3rd party developers of complex OS X software applications are leaving PPC behind anyway. Adobe is the the most notable example.
Maybe I'm not paying attention but I've yet to hear of any software developer (and I think that includes Apple) state that their next revision of whatever is going to require OS X 10.6. Until that happens claims of dropping legacy support seem a bit premature.
Think of the money, time, resources Apple saved on not supporting (ie, writing complex software) for old hardware!
Resources that Apple can direct to creating new superior hardware/software/products.
Superior hardware and superior software that I will be pleased to buy in the future and for less money.
It is very narrow and short sighted to complain about not supporting the old macs. One needs to take a 'big picture' view of Apple's approach. Or better yet, resign one's self to the fact that Apple's PHD's know a little more than we do....I have and it is a lot easier, not complaining all the time.
Also, Apple's profit is largely based on hardware sales, certainly not sales of their operating system (something like 90% of computers owned by consumers run the same version of the operating system that they shipped with).
By quickly obsoleting older technology Apple drives sales of new systems.
Don't be stupid!. This was discussed zillion times. Many still don't get it.
Another ridiculous post from yet another cheap bazztaad.
Nice. When you have to resort to name calling, your argument isn't worth reading. Please don't reply if you can't avoid childish ad-hominem attacks. I'm making a valid point, there's no need to denigrate me personally.
The supposed 10.6 Disk photo has been Photoshopped.
The type angle doesn't all match.
Nice try!
yet no one has mentoned the discrepancy in the desktop wallpaper.
but it very likely could be a case of 10.5.7 being installed on that mini and he'd have to use his install disc to upgrade immediately... which is sorta unlike apple.
If Leopard is preinstalled then the restore discs should be Leopard 10.5. The Snow Leopard 10.6 drop-in disc would be in addition to that and upgrade-only, identical to the up-to-date disc people order for $9.95. In the past, these upgrade discs have had the retail artwork rather than gray or black because they are not model-specfic. However since this Japanese customer is not supposed to have Snow Leopard yet, this case could be a factory mixup and his restore disc doesn't match his hard drive image.
The desktop picture could be explained by inserting the disc into any Mac running Leopard and viewing its contents but not installing yet.
I've heard rumors that this means that Snow Leopard will only be available in Japanese.
I never believed 10a423 was going to be GM since to my knowledge it didn't include an option to upgrade a 10.5 installation... maybe because my 10.5 installation is in English....
By all accounts 10a423 is fully functional and the only suspicious thing about it is its Welcome video is identical to 10.5. It's possible Apple didn't bother to make a new one since the 10.5 video doesn't refer to 10.5 or Leopard by name. If I remember correctly Apple used the same welcome video from 10.0 through 10.2
I call FAKE!!!
The supposed 10.6 Disk photo has been Photoshopped.
The type angle doesn't all match.
Nice try!
They were clever enough to come up with a new and credible part number. A Google search for 2Z691-6492-A doesn't turn up anything but this picture. Googling for part numbers of a released install disc will get eBay hits because people sell them.
There are no real new features, it just lets the new architecture run leaner and meaner and scraps the PPC architecture for the 90% of us that don't need it.