As other platforms also throw their support exclusively behind OpenGL, from the Wii to the PlayStation 3 to Apple's own considerable iPhone/iPod touch juggernaut in mobile device computing, the market power Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Do you really think, that someon is using OpenGL for PS3-games? I can tell you no! The PS3 hast PSGL (PSGL != OpenGL. PSGL is using also a lot of extensions) and its own API. No one is using PSGL.
The Wii is using also a custom API. There are some concepts related to opengl, but it is not OpenGL.
Quote:
Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Do you really believe the urban legend about OpenGL and compatibility across different platforms - especially in the case of the Mac?
Apple has implemented its own OpenGL Runtime. The IHVs are delivering only the drivers (Microsoft is using the same model). But unfortunately this runtime works in another way than the implementations from the IHVs for Windows and Linux.
Quote:
Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Why should Microsoft do this? There is no need for that, because it is simple: Direct X > OpenGL -> Developers are using Direct X because it is better. Direct X is also more pleasant to use and you get PiX for free.
Quote:
along with Snow Leopard's Grand Central Dispatch architecture which helps makes this easy and transparent for developers to deliver,
Thread pool - i guess you know what it is?
Quote:
also makes it possible to Apple to innovate in future hardware, adding new acceleration chips of its own design or simply including better support for the existing GPU resources available from today's vendors.
I would like to hear an explanation!
Quote:
Apple Bets on GPUs
One Question:
What version of OpenGL is shipping with Snow Leopard?
And what is the latest version of OpenGL?
Quote:
Daniel Eran Dilger is the author of "Snow Leopard Server (Developer Reference)," a new book from Wiley available now for pre-order at a special price from Amazon.
As others have said, this article seems somewhat anemic compared to the others in this series. I've read the Ars review, though, and it's bloody impressive, so aside from delivering Dan's usual dose of feel-good schadenfreude for Apple and Mac fans, this series doesn't really have much to do aside from repeating salient points.
Comparing OpenGL with DirectX is a mistake a lot of us seem to make. DirectX is a whole family of game- and media-oriented frameworks that encompass 3D graphics, video, audio, controller input, etc. and soon, with DX11, GPGPU stuff as well. OpenGL is specifically about graphics. It's the "G" in OpenGL. We also have OpenAL for audio, and now OpenCL for harnessing multiple kinds of processors. (Are there others, too? Not sure...) I'm no developer, but I've heard anecdotally that DirectX is easier to develop for (and not just in apfel's straight up troll post there, but elsewhere as well). OpenGL will never "topple" all of DirectX, obviously, but regardless, it and its siblings seem to have a long way to go before they can truly compete as a "platform of standards". The fact that Apple demonstrably doesn't give two shits about gaming on the Mac doesn't help this. (Didn't Valve once approach Apple about doing Mac games, only to be stonewalled? I remember reading that somewhere.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb510
my sentiments exactly... I'd especially like to hear what major applications actually are designed to make use of GCD and OCL. Further I'd like to know what the ramifications of levergaing the GPU might be to applications that traditionally rely on the GPU, what happens to my video playback or gaming when Adobe LR decides to use it?
Which major applications? Well, duh, none of them yet.
For tasks (like some of those performed by Lightroom, as per your example) that specifically use the graphics capabilities of a GPU, well, I don't see how OpenCL even gets involved there. OpenCL is there so developers can use GPUs (and whatever other type of processor happens to be laying around) for general-purpose computing tasks ? in other words, stuff that normally wouldn't use the GPU.
Yes, good point. Windows 7 is being treated like the second coming, but if you stop and think, how many new features does it have really? This is one rare instance when MS marketing has beaten Apple. Very similar product but completely different perceptions.
Windows 7 is the first decent OS MS put out since Windows XP. And that virus-ridden dog of an OS was nothing to be porud of.
Are we supposed to be impressed by MS' latest attempt to serve up a back-asswards copy of OS X, again, after failing for 8 years?
Right now there is no perception of Windows 7 at all because it hasn't been released yet. The average user barely knows about Windows 7. Wait for the first two months of actual use once it hits the shelves to get any kind of "perception."
The tech community certainly knows about it, though. Any marketing "succes" will be determined by the numbers, when it comes time for the quarterly conference calls.
Apple's Support for the gaming world is moving ahead at light speed . We will over take the p/c realm very soon.
I'm really hoping I just missed the sarcasm in that comment. But you're a huge Apple fanboy, so I'm guessing you truly believe that. Since Apple has shown absolutely ZERO interest in the gaming market, I can only assume "light speed" in your own special world is really, really slow.
Quote:
Apple with be the gaming platform leader by 22015.
Here, I fixed your last comment so it had a more realistic date.
I'm just baffled by the implication that OpenCL is going to be OS X-only. OpenCL came about due to Nvidia's work with CUDA. OpenCL will show up on Windows without doubt.
edit: AMD released a beta of their OpenCL implementation on Windows in early August.
I'm just baffled by the implication that OpenCL is going to be OS X-only. OpenCL came about due to Nvidia's work with CUDA. OpenCL will show up on Windows without doubt.
No its not OS X only, its making good headway into Linux and X11!!
And knowing Microsoft they PROBABLY will get on the bandwagon, if they have the sense!
OpenCL is an open standard. And it uses some compiler technologies that Apple has been experimenting with these years. Is not that much of a CUDA derivative, really.
If I am not wrong, the idea of putting some GPGPU facilities on DirectX far predates OpenCL. Also, the DirectX route suggests Microsoft was thinking more about game-related acceleration tasks, such as physics, rather than truly generic GPGPU. I don't see it as moustache-twirling villainous as the author does. OpenCL can be implemented on Windows, too, so…
OpenGL had a real shot at competing with DirectX games-wise with the original 3.0 spec. I have a game developer friend who really saw that as the biggest chance to go multiplatform. We all know how well that went.
For now, OpenGL on Snow Leopard is slower than Leopard's. Yay?
Open Cl on the Mac is baked into the OS. That should give developers a wider audience to address. Anyone with SL will have a Mac capable of using open cl.
I'm not sure how open cl is used on the windows platform. Although its an open standard is open cl baked into Win 7? I don't think so but I honestly don't know. Do you have to download an open cl client for windows to use open cl on windows?
Having it baked into the system os should help push development as developers will know they have an audience to address.
From what I've read it seems Apple could have supported more graphics cards with OpenCL but chose not to do so. Some speculate that support for older cards might be added later but as far as I can tell Apple hasn't commented on that so it seems unlikely (given Apple's track record on these kinds of affairs.)
If the above is correct then I think it was a poor decision.
It also seems that, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, that access to the h.264 hardware accelerated decoder (encoder too?) is limited to apps that hook into QuickTime.
Open Cl on the Mac is baked into the OS. That should give developers a wider audience to address. Anyone with SL will have a Mac capable of using open cl.
I'm not sure how open cl is used on the windows platform. Although its an open standard is open cl baked into Win 7? I don't think so but I honestly don't know. Do you have to download an open cl client for windows to use open cl on windows?
Having it baked into the system os should help push development as developers will know they have an audience to address.
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in. Any dev interested in leveraging the parallelization of the GPU has had access to CUDA for I think at least a year, maybe more.
@Snafu - I don't recall DirectX ever having facilities to use the GPU in the same manner as OpenCL/CUDA. I know that Nvidia did do the PhysX stuff with their cards, but that isn't DirectX. There's a separate SDK for PhysX available from Nvidia. If I'm wrong, I'd be curious to know where I can find info on the DirectX stuff.
I didn't say OpenCL was a CUDA derivative. Sorry I gave that impression. Nvidia's work with CUDA surely inspired OpenCL. It is a great idea.
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in. Any dev interested in leveraging the parallelization of the GPU has had access to CUDA for I think at least a year, maybe more.
.
Ok. But how do you get the open cl library for windows? I googled open cl for windows and couldn't really find anything. Will MS include the librbary for open cl in Win 7?
Having Apple deliver the open cl libraries with the os still helps guarantee an addressable audience for developers.
Was this article about snow leopard or just someone trying to confirm that mac is better than windows? On a day to day basis I read this site and some ms sites. The ms sites tend to talk about the new beta versions as ms trys to invent and improve their stuff while this site seems to focus on telling us how apple was years ahead of ms because it included a bit of open source code in their os. Can we not get back to what's good and new in snow leopard rather than comparing it to an os (xp) that most people arnt upgrading from as they find it fine.
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in.
That OpenCL isn't "baked in" is only true in the trivial sense that one considers nothing but the kernel "baked in": after all, Darwin is only a bunch of libraries and programs distributed with Mach, on that view. And equating it with Flash is frankly absurd, so absurd, in fact, that it highlights the ridiculousness of your assertion.
OpenCL is "baked in" in any meaningful sense of the phrase. It's a standard and official piece of technology and set of APIs that anyone programming for SL can depend on being present. And, as others have pointed out, other APIs, such as Core Image, now depend on it, so "removing it", were that possible, would disable large amounts of other system functionality. You can't really get much more "baked in" than that.
Flash, on the other hand, is not an official or standard component of Mac OS X, nor even produced by Apple. Removing it disables no part of Mac OS X. Developers who depend on it do so at their own peril as there is no guarantee that it will be present. Flash is less "baked in" than the cream filling in a Hostess cupcake.
Was this article about snow leopard or just someone trying to confirm that mac is better than windows? On a day to day basis I read this site and some ms sites. The ms sites tend to talk about the new beta versions as ms trys to invent and improve their stuff while this site seems to focus on telling us how apple was years ahead of ms because it included a bit of open source code in their os. Can we not get back to what's good and new in snow leopard rather than comparing it to an os (xp) that most people arnt upgrading from as they find it fine.
It's the typical Dilger crap-fest: Apple rulz, Micro$oft sux. He naturally skips over all the benefits that DirectX brought to PC game development.
As others have said, this article seems somewhat anemic compared to the others in this series. I've read the Ars review, though, and it's bloody impressive, so aside from delivering Dan's usual dose of feel-good schadenfreude for Apple and Mac fans, this series doesn't really have much to do aside from repeating salient points.
Comparing OpenGL with DirectX is a mistake a lot of us seem to make. DirectX is a whole family of game- and media-oriented frameworks that encompass 3D graphics, video, audio, controller input, etc. and soon, with DX11, GPGPU stuff as well. OpenGL is specifically about graphics. It's the "G" in OpenGL. We also have OpenAL for audio, and now OpenCL for harnessing multiple kinds of processors. (Are there others, too? Not sure...) I'm no developer, but I've heard anecdotally that DirectX is easier to develop for (and not just in apfel's straight up troll post there, but elsewhere as well). OpenGL will never "topple" all of DirectX, obviously, but regardless, it and its siblings seem to have a long way to go before they can truly compete as a "platform of standards". The fact that Apple demonstrably doesn't give two shits about gaming on the Mac doesn't help this. (Didn't Valve once approach Apple about doing Mac games, only to be stonewalled? I remember reading that somewhere.)
Which major applications? Well, duh, none of them yet.
For tasks (like some of those performed by Lightroom, as per your example) that specifically use the graphics capabilities of a GPU, well, I don't see how OpenCL even gets involved there. OpenCL is there so developers can use GPUs (and whatever other type of processor happens to be laying around) for general-purpose computing tasks ? in other words, stuff that normally wouldn't use the GPU.
Comments
As other platforms also throw their support exclusively behind OpenGL, from the Wii to the PlayStation 3 to Apple's own considerable iPhone/iPod touch juggernaut in mobile device computing, the market power Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Do you really think, that someon is using OpenGL for PS3-games? I can tell you no! The PS3 hast PSGL (PSGL != OpenGL. PSGL is using also a lot of extensions) and its own API. No one is using PSGL.
The Wii is using also a custom API. There are some concepts related to opengl, but it is not OpenGL.
Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Do you really believe the urban legend about OpenGL and compatibility across different platforms - especially in the case of the Mac?
Apple has implemented its own OpenGL Runtime. The IHVs are delivering only the drivers (Microsoft is using the same model). But unfortunately this runtime works in another way than the implementations from the IHVs for Windows and Linux.
Microsoft has established in its efforts to kill open GPU standards and substitute them with Windows-only substitutes will continue to fade
Why should Microsoft do this? There is no need for that, because it is simple: Direct X > OpenGL -> Developers are using Direct X because it is better. Direct X is also more pleasant to use and you get PiX for free.
along with Snow Leopard's Grand Central Dispatch architecture which helps makes this easy and transparent for developers to deliver,
Thread pool - i guess you know what it is?
also makes it possible to Apple to innovate in future hardware, adding new acceleration chips of its own design or simply including better support for the existing GPU resources available from today's vendors.
I would like to hear an explanation!
Apple Bets on GPUs
One Question:
What version of OpenGL is shipping with Snow Leopard?
And what is the latest version of OpenGL?
Daniel Eran Dilger is the author of "Snow Leopard Server (Developer Reference)," a new book from Wiley available now for pre-order at a special price from Amazon.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Cobbler, stick to your last!
my sentiments exactly... I'd especially like to hear what major applications actually are designed to make use of GCD and OCL. Further I'd like to know what the ramifications of levergaing the GPU might be to applications that traditionally rely on the GPU, what happens to my video playback or gaming when Adobe LR decides to use it?
For tasks (like some of those performed by Lightroom, as per your example) that specifically use the graphics capabilities of a GPU, well, I don't see how OpenCL even gets involved there. OpenCL is there so developers can use GPUs (and whatever other type of processor happens to be laying around) for general-purpose computing tasks ? in other words, stuff that normally wouldn't use the GPU.
Yes, good point. Windows 7 is being treated like the second coming, but if you stop and think, how many new features does it have really? This is one rare instance when MS marketing has beaten Apple. Very similar product but completely different perceptions.
Windows 7 is the first decent OS MS put out since Windows XP. And that virus-ridden dog of an OS was nothing to be porud of.
Are we supposed to be impressed by MS' latest attempt to serve up a back-asswards copy of OS X, again, after failing for 8 years?
Right now there is no perception of Windows 7 at all because it hasn't been released yet. The average user barely knows about Windows 7. Wait for the first two months of actual use once it hits the shelves to get any kind of "perception."
The tech community certainly knows about it, though. Any marketing "succes" will be determined by the numbers, when it comes time for the quarterly conference calls.
Apple's Support for the gaming world is moving ahead at light speed . We will over take the p/c realm very soon.
I'm really hoping I just missed the sarcasm in that comment. But you're a huge Apple fanboy, so I'm guessing you truly believe that. Since Apple has shown absolutely ZERO interest in the gaming market, I can only assume "light speed" in your own special world is really, really slow.
Apple with be the gaming platform leader by 22015.
Here, I fixed your last comment so it had a more realistic date.
Thread pool - i guess you know what it is?
And a Porsche is a car, your point is?
Your arguments are just as bad as AI's, just skewed the other way.
One Question:
What version of OpenGL is shipping with Snow Leopard?
And what is the latest version of OpenGL?
I think Snow Leopard Ships with 3.0?? if not... its definitely 2.x...
Latest OpenGL Version is 3.2... I think Apple will be upgrading to 3.2 in a not to distant future Snow leopard update.
edit: AMD released a beta of their OpenCL implementation on Windows in early August.
I'm just baffled by the implication that OpenCL is going to be OS X-only. OpenCL came about due to Nvidia's work with CUDA. OpenCL will show up on Windows without doubt.
No its not OS X only, its making good headway into Linux and X11!!
And knowing Microsoft they PROBABLY will get on the bandwagon, if they have the sense!
If I am not wrong, the idea of putting some GPGPU facilities on DirectX far predates OpenCL. Also, the DirectX route suggests Microsoft was thinking more about game-related acceleration tasks, such as physics, rather than truly generic GPGPU. I don't see it as moustache-twirling villainous as the author does. OpenCL can be implemented on Windows, too, so…
OpenGL had a real shot at competing with DirectX games-wise with the original 3.0 spec. I have a game developer friend who really saw that as the biggest chance to go multiplatform. We all know how well that went.
For now, OpenGL on Snow Leopard is slower than Leopard's. Yay?
I'm not sure how open cl is used on the windows platform. Although its an open standard is open cl baked into Win 7? I don't think so but I honestly don't know. Do you have to download an open cl client for windows to use open cl on windows?
Having it baked into the system os should help push development as developers will know they have an audience to address.
If the above is correct then I think it was a poor decision.
It also seems that, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, that access to the h.264 hardware accelerated decoder (encoder too?) is limited to apps that hook into QuickTime.
Again, if true, a poor decision on Apple's part.
Open Cl on the Mac is baked into the OS. That should give developers a wider audience to address. Anyone with SL will have a Mac capable of using open cl.
I'm not sure how open cl is used on the windows platform. Although its an open standard is open cl baked into Win 7? I don't think so but I honestly don't know. Do you have to download an open cl client for windows to use open cl on windows?
Having it baked into the system os should help push development as developers will know they have an audience to address.
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in. Any dev interested in leveraging the parallelization of the GPU has had access to CUDA for I think at least a year, maybe more.
@Snafu - I don't recall DirectX ever having facilities to use the GPU in the same manner as OpenCL/CUDA. I know that Nvidia did do the PhysX stuff with their cards, but that isn't DirectX. There's a separate SDK for PhysX available from Nvidia. If I'm wrong, I'd be curious to know where I can find info on the DirectX stuff.
I didn't say OpenCL was a CUDA derivative. Sorry I gave that impression. Nvidia's work with CUDA surely inspired OpenCL. It is a great idea.
1. Constantly crashing Flash-having downloaded most recent recommended version for 10.6
2. No screenshots work: "Unable to create type string"
what the fuck is a jingle pundit
I'm guessing it is not meant as a complement.
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in. Any dev interested in leveraging the parallelization of the GPU has had access to CUDA for I think at least a year, maybe more.
.
Ok. But how do you get the open cl library for windows? I googled open cl for windows and couldn't really find anything. Will MS include the librbary for open cl in Win 7?
Having Apple deliver the open cl libraries with the os still helps guarantee an addressable audience for developers.
Originally Posted by Poppleganger
what the fuck is a jingle pundit
It's what biased writers say to reveal their bias.
You mean to say that AppleInsider is biased? Oh my...
OpenCL isn't baked in. It's a separate library that is distributed with OS X. Just as it is a separate library that you can install on Windows. It's no more "baked in" than Flash is baked in.
That OpenCL isn't "baked in" is only true in the trivial sense that one considers nothing but the kernel "baked in": after all, Darwin is only a bunch of libraries and programs distributed with Mach, on that view. And equating it with Flash is frankly absurd, so absurd, in fact, that it highlights the ridiculousness of your assertion.
OpenCL is "baked in" in any meaningful sense of the phrase. It's a standard and official piece of technology and set of APIs that anyone programming for SL can depend on being present. And, as others have pointed out, other APIs, such as Core Image, now depend on it, so "removing it", were that possible, would disable large amounts of other system functionality. You can't really get much more "baked in" than that.
Flash, on the other hand, is not an official or standard component of Mac OS X, nor even produced by Apple. Removing it disables no part of Mac OS X. Developers who depend on it do so at their own peril as there is no guarantee that it will be present. Flash is less "baked in" than the cream filling in a Hostess cupcake.
Was this article about snow leopard or just someone trying to confirm that mac is better than windows? On a day to day basis I read this site and some ms sites. The ms sites tend to talk about the new beta versions as ms trys to invent and improve their stuff while this site seems to focus on telling us how apple was years ahead of ms because it included a bit of open source code in their os. Can we not get back to what's good and new in snow leopard rather than comparing it to an os (xp) that most people arnt upgrading from as they find it fine.
It's the typical Dilger crap-fest: Apple rulz, Micro$oft sux. He naturally skips over all the benefits that DirectX brought to PC game development.
For tasks (like some of those performed by Lightroom, as per your example) that specifically use the graphics capabilities of a GPU, well, I don't see how OpenCL even gets involved there. OpenCL is there so developers can use GPUs (and whatever other type of processor happens to be laying around) for general-purpose computing tasks ? in other words, stuff that normally wouldn't use the GPU.
Yes, the DirectX Family is akin to this family: http://www.khronos.org/