Another thing people have a lot of trouble realizing is the fact that the iPhone population isn't anything too crazy. The chunk of ATT's network that iPhones take up is not all that big. It's just sheer size of the population of people using the network. So this is not an iPhone specific problem. Verizon has plenty of customers who are grabbing data like crazy with their blackberries. I see more blackberries than I do iPhones where I live.
I'm not sure that this is the case. While it's true that in terms of devices iPhones might not make up a large portion of AT&Ts network, I think that in terms of usage, the numbers are different.
Here's a chart a chart from earlier this year of mobile internet usage:
So when a small portion of one carrier can account for nearly 2/3 of all mobile internet traffic, I think that the logistics of deploying something like MMS for the iPhone can be a little more involved. I don't see 3 months from announcement to launch as being too long.
Just to be clear, I'm not entirely for AT&T nor am I particularly a big fan. But I think that if we don't source our arguments or direct our energies appropriately, then it only hurts the conversation. AT&T has a lot of problems, but I don't think this is one of them.
When I was with Verizon, my memory was that their business model was to severely limit the functionality of all of their the phones despite their capabilities. For example, I could neither transfer files to our from my LG phone on Verizon even though the phone supported it. From my limited knowledge of US carriers and their phone offerings, this seems to be a common practice. So I think that the concession AT&T made with the iPhone was a positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorsten
This MMS stuff sounds like bull* to me or it has not been properly explained. We are sending Emails with pictures all the time over the iPhone. We are uploading videos to youtube. How come the network can handle that, but not a simple MMS, which probably won't be used too much since each MMS costs money, and Emails are FREE.
Again, this will be difficult to answer without understanding the human psychology behind it and just seeing it play out, but my intuition is that what draws people to MMS over email is the social aspect. While the iPhone is widely popular over the general population, for any given iPhone user, only a handful of their friends will also have iPhones. So if I took a video with my brand new iPhone 3GS (for example), I would disinclined to send it as an e-mail if I knew that my friend would have to go home to their computer and download it as an attachment. I think it's very much the sense of immediacy and connection to their friends, iPhone or not, which is worth the 25 cents to them. But that's just my theory
first - any 2 bit dork that uses youtube already knows how their cell phone and those ugly towers work.
Second - like someone above inferred - this looks like something that was made by microsoft... and that's gotta have SJ worrying. It probably solidified the decision to get away from AT&T.
I say good for them. What carrier company gives a rats ass to their customers. Apple has changed the status quo and AT&T had the guts to go with it. Give the guys some credit. At least they are working and trying to make it better. A few years ago your complaint goes in one ear and out the other, with a smidgen of laughter from the carriers during transit.
I agree with every word your saying.
And it also takes a little pressure off Apple. The amount of times i hear people blaming the iPhone for poor network coverage is unreal.
Look AT&T is really SBC. And SBC was/is a hard nosed, cutthroat company more like Wal Mart than Apple. AT&T/SBC is also known for it's relentless legislative campaigns to get laws passed that specifically target their bottom line. Not just lobbying, but legislating from the board room. IMO they don't do anything the "right" way, they do it the cheap way. Just enough to get by while maximizing profit. Overbuilding a data network is not they way they roll. Under building a data network and locking in a super sweet deal with an innovator like Apple is their style. They have a dedicated army of white collar workers who do nothing but squeeze every dime out of their customers and suppliers. I know that sounds like just plain good business, but the way they do it is more like warfare. And sometimes we are the collateral damage.
Well if your right about the AT&T business model and Apple renew the contract for iPhone with them, then what will that tell you about Apple??
Well, that's it? Thanks blogger guy. I feel allot better now about taking it up the ***.
Whatever problems AT&T's had it's even easier to grasp, that they sell a mediocre product at an exorbitant "premium" rate than it was for that idiot to explain how mobile technology works. Such a pathetic and predictable attempt at quelling the masses. What's up with the "everyday geek" on a white backdrop these days? Are we supposed to feel invited by the tilt of his head and exaggerated bulging eyes? Frankly it was kinda creepy.
I agree with others. Apple did good. Whoever picks up the ball from AT&T will know that they had better leverage their quality of service as THE sellng point for future iphone contracts.
Who is really at fault, that is Apple thank you, because of the exclusive only one carrier. If the iphone was unlocked the load of iphone users would be disbursed over several carriers and not only ATnT. Steve is really holding apple back just so he can have a huge paycheck for himself.
You're right, he must love that nice, shiny dollar every year...
I really think I need to play devil's advocate here for a moment. Even though it appears that AT&T is lagging behind when it comes to updating their network compared to Verizon or Sprint , remember that AT&T has double to triple the data demand that they do. While they're certainly not doing as good a job as they could be doing, they are trying very hard to manage something that most of us would certainly not know where to start, although for the record, they certainly don't know where to start when it comes to making a PR video.
USA does have more land and to provide the coverage like other countries is very hard but the fact is we had to wait over 10 yrs before US had 3G that is unacceptable. and honestly i feel bad for everyone who uses an iphone especially those who still have the first generation ones. you basically bought a cell phone that had technology back in the 90s and you paid a premium for it but that still doesnt excuse at&t for providing such a bad network. i made my choice i will never buy an iphone in the states i will however go overseas buy the unlock 3gs and bring it back here to use a little more money yes but i dotn have to go with att. Apple should just pay att off and get off their deal and just open the ifone to everyone that way they will definitely increase their marketshare by a lot
We've gonevfron 3rd to 28th in terms of broadband too, worldwide. I hope the givermenr steps in and regulates this scam the telco/ cable providers lobbiests use to screw us.
Well if your right about the AT&T business model and Apple renew the contract for iPhone with them, then what will that tell you about Apple??
Why doesn't EVERYONE google hiw txt messages usevZERO bandwidth. With images it will be different, but thus data plan and txt MSG plan is for the birds. Jail break it and tell them to piss off.
Does anyone else think this sounds like meaningless technobabble? I could understand if they said they needed to upgrade their base stations, but calibrate them? What are they gonna do? Tilt the antennae 5° to the left?
Actually, if they are using a different radio spectrum than they anticipated to transmit MMS then the base stations may in fact have needed to be calibrated. When they calibrate them they are (among other things I'm sure) making sure that when they tune they remove any offsets that are inherent in the base station, tune or adjust voltage controlled oscillators etc to make sure that potential errors of reception and transmission are mitigated.
I'm not pleading ATT's case, they have really fallen asleep at the switch, and I assume it will cost them huge $$ once Verizon gets a version of the iPhone.
AT&T has been building out their network since before the first iPhone hit the shelfs. In fact between them and the other carriers they even drew congressional interest due to tower construction accidents. To imply AT&T is not working on it is simply silly.
Quote:
Don't use the excuse that their are just so many smartphone on your network and that they are straining your network so much.
it is not an excuse, not even Jobs himself predicted the success of iPhone.
Quote:
You had two years to prepare for this, don't act like this smartphone boom just surprised you. Look at Verizon and Sprint, you just being lazy, really lazy.
Do either Verizon or Sprint have customers using their network like iPhone users? If you have half a brain you would know the answer to that question. Oh buy the way the use of the RF spectrum is highly regulated, you just don't start using random bandwidth to satisfy your needs.
Quote:
Your finally investing in your network when it's past it's capacity
Quote:
. Nice job. And who the heck pushed for having smartphone on your network? You.
Nope; Apple pushed for the deal because the other carriers didn't want to play ball.
Well that sort of makes sense after their experience with iPhone. They don't want to get caught with their pants down.
The reality is AT&T service varies dramatically with location. Where I'm at they do as good or better than my old verizon phone. In some areas AT&T is or was bad simply due to the transmit frequency of the cell tower. Beyond the issue of regulation you have the problem of reoutfitting the tower for the new RF signal. This can mean anything from new antennas to new transmitters.
One thing that is obvious in this thread is that many people don't have a clue. Really if there was a little understanding here about radio systems or even physics many of the comments that have been made would not be here. The common refrain is that there are people here talking out of their ass.
Folks say what you want, but Verizon, Sprint and other would very likely be in the same place had they been the vendor of choice ? why you ask. Well let's look at it.
Say Verizon had the contract, and the iPhone worked well on the network, then more folks would have purchased them, and hence taxiing the system even more, causing it to NT work as promised.
If and when Verizon gets a contract to sell and offer the iPhone, and IF EVERYONE switches over, do you think they will be ready for MILLIONS of new subscribers , calling and texting all of their friends and how great the iPhone is now that it's o ? (oops sorry I just lost my connection).
The Good news is Verizon is getting a 2, 3, 4 year jump on issues they currently don't have to deal with, so if they are smart, they are getting ready, and have a system in place that IS in fact, more then is needed (at this time) and they WILL be ready for the mass migration of cell phone users to Verizon when and if it happens.
Boy, to anyone who has stock in AT&T ? PLEASE pay attention to when the current contract expires with Apple, and SELL, SELL, SELL before it's over
Hey folks, I live in the northern country of Maine (Just a stones throw from Boston, and NY), and I am on Verizon, and I have DROPPED calls ALL THE TIME - so I'm not expecting a miracle when and if they get APple as a client.
And in my opinion, Verizon WILL take care of the big cities first, and countries like Maine will not even show up on their radar for some time.
Hell they sold their land line business dealings in New England to Fairpoint, which has been a disaster from the start.
So even Verizon, is looking out for number one, and who knows what that means for the rest of us?
"We've been working for months to prepare the radio access controllers in our network to support this launch. That means calibrating base stations all over the country, and frankly that's a very time-consuming process. MMS for the iPhone will be coming on September 25th. We wanted to make sure that when MMS for the iPhone launches, the experience was great. We wanted to get it right."
translation:
"Our network sucks ass. We know this as well as you. We heard you so please STFU already. We honestly did not realize that if we sold a phone that would enable users to actually use data that those user would actually end up using data. How were we to expect that? We had Apple delay MMS in 2.0 because we learned that if it is on the iPhone, customers might actually use it. While we would have prefered to delay it indefinately, Apple has gone ahead and included it 3.0. We can't blame them for it missing anymore and we are getting raked for our flagship smartphone not having MMS. We tried to delay a little longer by claiming our planned network maintanence was actually us trying to prep for millions of iPhone users actually using MMS. But we promised end of summer, so what the he'll, it's on.
You thought out network sucked before, just wait. You ain't seen nothing yet."
Blackberries use less than a tenth of the data of other smartphone's this is due to the BIS (which you pay for on top of a voice plan) directing all traffic through RIM's servers where it is compressed and pushed out to the handset.
This is why Blackberries work so well even on 2G networks.
The 3G models are capable of heavier data use, e.g. video streaming.
As this requires the addition of another data plan on top of the BIS subscription and voice plan, I don't think that many people would be using those functions. (I am basing that assumption on all the peopleI've seen here, who whine about paying for data).
Two thirds of ALL mobile data traffic in the US is used by iPhone's i.e. AT&T.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liltechdude
Verizon has plenty of customers who are grabbing data like crazy with their blackberries. I see more blackberries than I do iPhones where I live.
Seriously ATT WTF!?!?!? I think we should be pro-rated all the MMS fees we've been paying since day one. The SMS plan I pay for is exactly the same as other ATT users and that includes MMS! ATT even went so far as to say they wouldn't charge us more for MMS. Fuck that we've been paying for it the whole time and they just haven't delivered. Don't get me started on why we are paying for SMS/MMS independently of our mandatory UNLIMITED data plan in the first place.
Sigh... Oh AT&T, I am so gonna drop you when Verizon gets an iPhone. For me, right now, the thing that bugs me most about AT&T isn't MMS (but there shouldn't be a reason why it doesn't work) but tethering! Why oh why does it seem that every other carrier in the world offers iPhone tethering for free, but here in the US? Noooo... that's 55 bucks. Huh???
Now to be fair, people are claiming that "AT&T has to charge us more because the United States has a larger continental land mass area. They need to accomodate users in rural America." I'd be sympathetic to that belief, if it made sense. Every day I drive out to the middle of a major metropolitan city to go to school. Right in the middle of town, right in the center of everything, service sucks. I have to use Edge, I never have a call that lasts more than 30 seconds, and I just put it in airplane mode. Now onto the country issue. One can assume with greater land mass, the more users you have. More users, more profit, more money to improve your network. I mean, how far does my, and millions of others', $80/month stretch?
Does anyone else think this sounds like meaningless technobabble? I could understand if they said they needed to upgrade their base stations, but calibrate them? What are they gonna do? Tilt the antennae 5° to the left?
Please. I always hate it when one person tries to explain things reasonably in nontechnical terms, and the next person calls it technobabble. You don't get the idea of calibrating receivers? Fine. You don't get it. That's why he adds that it's very time consuming. That's about as nontechnical as humanly possible. And it's still too technical for you? And you're making fun of them??
Comments
Another thing people have a lot of trouble realizing is the fact that the iPhone population isn't anything too crazy. The chunk of ATT's network that iPhones take up is not all that big. It's just sheer size of the population of people using the network. So this is not an iPhone specific problem. Verizon has plenty of customers who are grabbing data like crazy with their blackberries. I see more blackberries than I do iPhones where I live.
I'm not sure that this is the case. While it's true that in terms of devices iPhones might not make up a large portion of AT&Ts network, I think that in terms of usage, the numbers are different.
Here's a chart a chart from earlier this year of mobile internet usage:
So when a small portion of one carrier can account for nearly 2/3 of all mobile internet traffic, I think that the logistics of deploying something like MMS for the iPhone can be a little more involved. I don't see 3 months from announcement to launch as being too long.
Just to be clear, I'm not entirely for AT&T nor am I particularly a big fan. But I think that if we don't source our arguments or direct our energies appropriately, then it only hurts the conversation. AT&T has a lot of problems, but I don't think this is one of them.
When I was with Verizon, my memory was that their business model was to severely limit the functionality of all of their the phones despite their capabilities. For example, I could neither transfer files to our from my LG phone on Verizon even though the phone supported it. From my limited knowledge of US carriers and their phone offerings, this seems to be a common practice. So I think that the concession AT&T made with the iPhone was a positive.
This MMS stuff sounds like bull* to me or it has not been properly explained. We are sending Emails with pictures all the time over the iPhone. We are uploading videos to youtube. How come the network can handle that, but not a simple MMS, which probably won't be used too much since each MMS costs money, and Emails are FREE.
Again, this will be difficult to answer without understanding the human psychology behind it and just seeing it play out, but my intuition is that what draws people to MMS over email is the social aspect. While the iPhone is widely popular over the general population, for any given iPhone user, only a handful of their friends will also have iPhones. So if I took a video with my brand new iPhone 3GS (for example), I would disinclined to send it as an e-mail if I knew that my friend would have to go home to their computer and download it as an attachment. I think it's very much the sense of immediacy and connection to their friends, iPhone or not, which is worth the 25 cents to them. But that's just my theory
Second - like someone above inferred - this looks like something that was made by microsoft... and that's gotta have SJ worrying. It probably solidified the decision to get away from AT&T.
p
I say good for them. What carrier company gives a rats ass to their customers. Apple has changed the status quo and AT&T had the guts to go with it. Give the guys some credit. At least they are working and trying to make it better. A few years ago your complaint goes in one ear and out the other, with a smidgen of laughter from the carriers during transit.
I agree with every word your saying.
And it also takes a little pressure off Apple. The amount of times i hear people blaming the iPhone for poor network coverage is unreal.
Look AT&T is really SBC. And SBC was/is a hard nosed, cutthroat company more like Wal Mart than Apple. AT&T/SBC is also known for it's relentless legislative campaigns to get laws passed that specifically target their bottom line. Not just lobbying, but legislating from the board room. IMO they don't do anything the "right" way, they do it the cheap way. Just enough to get by while maximizing profit. Overbuilding a data network is not they way they roll. Under building a data network and locking in a super sweet deal with an innovator like Apple is their style. They have a dedicated army of white collar workers who do nothing but squeeze every dime out of their customers and suppliers. I know that sounds like just plain good business, but the way they do it is more like warfare. And sometimes we are the collateral damage.
Well if your right about the AT&T business model and Apple renew the contract for iPhone with them, then what will that tell you about Apple??
Whatever problems AT&T's had it's even easier to grasp, that they sell a mediocre product at an exorbitant "premium" rate than it was for that idiot to explain how mobile technology works. Such a pathetic and predictable attempt at quelling the masses. What's up with the "everyday geek" on a white backdrop these days? Are we supposed to feel invited by the tilt of his head and exaggerated bulging eyes? Frankly it was kinda creepy.
I agree with others. Apple did good. Whoever picks up the ball from AT&T will know that they had better leverage their quality of service as THE sellng point for future iphone contracts.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_277867.html
10.6:
"IM NOT A SERVICE PACK!"
aww, he's quite a chubby little service pack.
Who is really at fault, that is Apple thank you, because of the exclusive only one carrier. If the iphone was unlocked the load of iphone users would be disbursed over several carriers and not only ATnT. Steve is really holding apple back just so he can have a huge paycheck for himself.
You're right, he must love that nice, shiny dollar every year...
I really think I need to play devil's advocate here for a moment. Even though it appears that AT&T is lagging behind when it comes to updating their network compared to Verizon or Sprint , remember that AT&T has double to triple the data demand that they do. While they're certainly not doing as good a job as they could be doing, they are trying very hard to manage something that most of us would certainly not know where to start, although for the record, they certainly don't know where to start when it comes to making a PR video.
USA does have more land and to provide the coverage like other countries is very hard but the fact is we had to wait over 10 yrs before US had 3G that is unacceptable. and honestly i feel bad for everyone who uses an iphone especially those who still have the first generation ones. you basically bought a cell phone that had technology back in the 90s and you paid a premium for it but that still doesnt excuse at&t for providing such a bad network. i made my choice i will never buy an iphone in the states i will however go overseas buy the unlock 3gs and bring it back here to use a little more money yes but i dotn have to go with att. Apple should just pay att off and get off their deal and just open the ifone to everyone that way they will definitely increase their marketshare by a lot
We've gonevfron 3rd to 28th in terms of broadband too, worldwide. I hope the givermenr steps in and regulates this scam the telco/ cable providers lobbiests use to screw us.
Well if your right about the AT&T business model and Apple renew the contract for iPhone with them, then what will that tell you about Apple??
Why doesn't EVERYONE google hiw txt messages usevZERO bandwidth. With images it will be different, but thus data plan and txt MSG plan is for the birds. Jail break it and tell them to piss off.
Does anyone else think this sounds like meaningless technobabble?
Actually, if they are using a different radio spectrum than they anticipated to transmit MMS then the base stations may in fact have needed to be calibrated. When they calibrate them they are (among other things I'm sure) making sure that when they tune they remove any offsets that are inherent in the base station, tune or adjust voltage controlled oscillators etc to make sure that potential errors of reception and transmission are mitigated.
I'm not pleading ATT's case, they have really fallen asleep at the switch, and I assume it will cost them huge $$ once Verizon gets a version of the iPhone.
Oh now your working on it?
AT&T has been building out their network since before the first iPhone hit the shelfs. In fact between them and the other carriers they even drew congressional interest due to tower construction accidents. To imply AT&T is not working on it is simply silly.
Don't use the excuse that their are just so many smartphone on your network and that they are straining your network so much.
it is not an excuse, not even Jobs himself predicted the success of iPhone.
You had two years to prepare for this, don't act like this smartphone boom just surprised you. Look at Verizon and Sprint, you just being lazy, really lazy.
Do either Verizon or Sprint have customers using their network like iPhone users? If you have half a brain you would know the answer to that question. Oh buy the way the use of the RF spectrum is highly regulated, you just don't start using random bandwidth to satisfy your needs.
Quote:
Your finally investing in your network when it's past it's capacity
. Nice job. And who the heck pushed for having smartphone on your network? You.
Nope; Apple pushed for the deal because the other carriers didn't want to play ball.
You even require all smartphone users to have a data plan.
Well that sort of makes sense after their experience with iPhone. They don't want to get caught with their pants down.
The reality is AT&T service varies dramatically with location. Where I'm at they do as good or better than my old verizon phone. In some areas AT&T is or was bad simply due to the transmit frequency of the cell tower. Beyond the issue of regulation you have the problem of reoutfitting the tower for the new RF signal. This can mean anything from new antennas to new transmitters.
One thing that is obvious in this thread is that many people don't have a clue. Really if there was a little understanding here about radio systems or even physics many of the comments that have been made would not be here. The common refrain is that there are people here talking out of their ass.
Dave
Say Verizon had the contract, and the iPhone worked well on the network, then more folks would have purchased them, and hence taxiing the system even more, causing it to NT work as promised.
If and when Verizon gets a contract to sell and offer the iPhone, and IF EVERYONE switches over, do you think they will be ready for MILLIONS of new subscribers , calling and texting all of their friends and how great the iPhone is now that it's o ? (oops sorry I just lost my connection).
The Good news is Verizon is getting a 2, 3, 4 year jump on issues they currently don't have to deal with, so if they are smart, they are getting ready, and have a system in place that IS in fact, more then is needed (at this time) and they WILL be ready for the mass migration of cell phone users to Verizon when and if it happens.
Boy, to anyone who has stock in AT&T ? PLEASE pay attention to when the current contract expires with Apple, and SELL, SELL, SELL before it's over
Hey folks, I live in the northern country of Maine (Just a stones throw from Boston, and NY), and I am on Verizon, and I have DROPPED calls ALL THE TIME - so I'm not expecting a miracle when and if they get APple as a client.
And in my opinion, Verizon WILL take care of the big cities first, and countries like Maine will not even show up on their radar for some time.
Hell they sold their land line business dealings in New England to Fairpoint, which has been a disaster from the start.
So even Verizon, is looking out for number one, and who knows what that means for the rest of us?
Skip
"We've been working for months to prepare the radio access controllers in our network to support this launch. That means calibrating base stations all over the country, and frankly that's a very time-consuming process. MMS for the iPhone will be coming on September 25th. We wanted to make sure that when MMS for the iPhone launches, the experience was great. We wanted to get it right."
translation:
"Our network sucks ass. We know this as well as you. We heard you so please STFU already. We honestly did not realize that if we sold a phone that would enable users to actually use data that those user would actually end up using data. How were we to expect that? We had Apple delay MMS in 2.0 because we learned that if it is on the iPhone, customers might actually use it. While we would have prefered to delay it indefinately, Apple has gone ahead and included it 3.0. We can't blame them for it missing anymore and we are getting raked for our flagship smartphone not having MMS. We tried to delay a little longer by claiming our planned network maintanence was actually us trying to prep for millions of iPhone users actually using MMS. But we promised end of summer, so what the he'll, it's on.
You thought out network sucked before, just wait. You ain't seen nothing yet."
This is why Blackberries work so well even on 2G networks.
The 3G models are capable of heavier data use, e.g. video streaming.
As this requires the addition of another data plan on top of the BIS subscription and voice plan, I don't think that many people would be using those functions. (I am basing that assumption on all the peopleI've seen here, who whine about paying for data).
Two thirds of ALL mobile data traffic in the US is used by iPhone's i.e. AT&T.
Verizon has plenty of customers who are grabbing data like crazy with their blackberries. I see more blackberries than I do iPhones where I live.
Investment in towers is quite slow rescue. Why wouldn't AT&T bother to look at what others do? We don't drop calls on our iPhones.
Yeah sure..
Now to be fair, people are claiming that "AT&T has to charge us more because the United States has a larger continental land mass area. They need to accomodate users in rural America." I'd be sympathetic to that belief, if it made sense. Every day I drive out to the middle of a major metropolitan city to go to school. Right in the middle of town, right in the center of everything, service sucks. I have to use Edge, I never have a call that lasts more than 30 seconds, and I just put it in airplane mode. Now onto the country issue. One can assume with greater land mass, the more users you have. More users, more profit, more money to improve your network. I mean, how far does my, and millions of others', $80/month stretch?
Your move AT&T YouTube spokeswhore.
Does anyone else think this sounds like meaningless technobabble?
Please. I always hate it when one person tries to explain things reasonably in nontechnical terms, and the next person calls it technobabble. You don't get the idea of calibrating receivers? Fine. You don't get it. That's why he adds that it's very time consuming. That's about as nontechnical as humanly possible. And it's still too technical for you? And you're making fun of them??