AT&T defends its iPhone network via YouTube outreach

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  • Reply 141 of 210
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It means what --- you might actually had turn-by-turn nav apps like VZ Navigator on the original iphone in June 2007. That's a plus for consumer instead of waiting until July 2009 for AT&T to release AT&T Navigator for the iphone.



    Possibly, but I don’t think that is win for the consumer if it means that Google Maps or 3rd-party App Store mapping software would have a chance. At $10/month i think that any of these services are rip off. I thought we were past month service charges for GPS. I certainly won’t pay for it.



    We don’t know what would have happen, but we do know that Verizon was least desperate carrier at the time (still is despite not having the iPhone) and the least likely to give in to any changes to the status quo that Apple wanted to change. Despite AT&T royal frak up of so many things I don’t think Verizon would have been the best option for the consumer.





    PS: I’m sitting by the pool, eating BBQ and enjoying this civil debate.
  • Reply 142 of 210
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    Possibly, but I don?t think that is win for the consumer if it means that Google Maps or 3rd-party App Store mapping software would have a chance. At $10/month i think that any of these services are rip off. I thought we were past month service charges for GPS. I certainly won?t pay for it.



    We don?t know what would have happen, but we do know that Verizon was least desperate carrier at the time (still is despite not having the iPhone) and the least likely to give in to any changes to the status quo that Apple wanted to change. Despite AT&T royal frak up of so many things I don?t think Verizon would have been the best option for the consumer.



    PS: I?m sitting by the pool, eating BBQ and enjoying this civil debate.



    3rd party turn-by-turn nav apps are available on Verizon phones on the GIN store --- like AAA Mobile Navigator. So you could have multiple turn-by-turn apps available on the Verizon iphone in 2007, instead of 2009.



    Least desperate means that Verizon would have forced Apple into dropping many of these idiotic ideas from day 1 --- like $600 iphone with a 2 year contract, like revenue sharing... That would have been a big plus for consumers. All those first gen "revolutionary" iphone ideas --- turned up to be idiotic and quickly drop.



    PS: I am watching the US Open on the big screen and my laptop has US Open's website to show scores and stats from all the other matches. Federer just won his 4th round match.
  • Reply 143 of 210
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Least desperate means that Verizon would have forced Apple into dropping many of these idiotic ideas from day 1 --- like $600 iphone with a 2 year contract, like revenue sharing... That would have been a big plus for consumers. All those first gen "revolutionary" iphone ideas --- turned up to be idiotic and quickly drop.



    We?re obviously going to have to agree to disagree here, but revenue sharing was a great idea that I wish had worked. It meant that the vendors responsibility extended past the initial sale. Imagine a workd where the cellphone vendor cares more about the consumer continuing to find a use for the device you?ve already bought instead of coming out with a new device every couple months for you to buy with very slight HW and OS changes, while leaving your old device in the dust.



    We know have the original iPhone all the way back from 2007 with v3.0 of the OS. I don?t know of another cellular vendor that has done that, for free or for a charge, outside of minor bug updates. Even the T-Mobile G1 isn?t going to get any more Android updates. Now that revenue sharing has stopped, Apple didn?t have to do that, but I think they did it as a way of tipping the cellular market more to their favour by knocking everyone else off a little more. It wasn?t so much for consumers as it was to make the others look bad in comparison or have them waste money and resources trying to compete with so many rich updates for a business model that only works when you have a very limited number of devices. Otherwise, it?s just not a profitable move as the App Store and iTunes Store were already a part of the device with v2.x.
  • Reply 144 of 210
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    We?re obviously going to have to agree to disagree here, but revenue sharing was a great idea that I wish had worked. It meant that the vendors responsibility extended past the initial sale. Imagine a workd where the cellphone vendor cares more about the consumer continuing to find a use for the device you?ve already bought instead of coming out with a new device every couple months for you to buy with very slight HW and OS changes, while leaving your old device in the dust.



    We know have the original iPhone all the way back from 2007 with v3.0 of the OS. I don?t know of another cellular vendor that has done that, for free or for a charge, outside of minor bug updates. Even the T-Mobile G1 isn?t going to get any more Android updates. Now that revenue sharing has stopped, Apple didn?t have to do that, but I think they did it as a way of tipping the cellular market more to their favour by knocking everyone else off a little more. It wasn?t so much for consumers as it was to make the others look bad in comparison or have them waste money and resources trying to compete with so many rich updates for a business model that only works when you have a very limited number of devices. Otherwise, it?s just not a profitable move as the App Store and iTunes Store were already a part of the device with v2.x.



    Instead of keeping your original iphone past the 2 year mark with the v3.0 OS, you could have bought a new phone with a new OS. And many of the v3.0 improvements are not available for the older iphones (even the newer 3G iphone) as hardware requirements are different.
  • Reply 145 of 210
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Instead of keeping your original iphone past the 2 year mark with the v3.0 OS, you could have bought a new phone with a new OS. And many of the v3.0 improvements are not available for the older iphones (even the newer 3G iphone) as hardware requirements are different.



    I’m aware of the HW changes of the 3GS. I have bought each new iPhone that has come out, but I’m not worried about paying a few extra hundred a year for a phone that does more and does it faster than the previous model, especially when I’m paying $100/month for the cellular service. I like my tech!
  • Reply 146 of 210
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Apple makes a lot of money on licensing fees for third party ipod and iphone docks --- that's why it took forever to get the bluetooth working.



    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...y/4229530.html



    Interesting article except the iPhone is not an iPod. The iPhone came with BT from day one. Apple has upgraded BT connectivity on all iPhone's as they have upgraded the OS.



    Plus you don't need a license to create headphones for the iPod so I retract my interesting comment, it's actually a pretty stupid article if I think about it more.



    But hey, conspiracies are more fun and certainly generate more web clicks. No motivation for exaggeration there either
  • Reply 147 of 210
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Apple not signing with Verizon was the biggest mistake by Steve Jobs.



    Really? So your saying he should have acquiesced to Verizon's demands and maintained the status quo of the cellular industry?



    No thanks.



    And what makes you think Verizon's network would have fared any better the AT&T's? Weren't the pro CDMA people bragging about how with CDMA you didn't need as many towers? That would just exacerbate a data overload/capacity problem.



    Quote:

    If Apple signed Verizon, Palm wouldn't have been rescued and we would have never seen the Palm Pre. As those credit card commercials said it best --- wiping out a competitor is priceless.



    I don't think Apple has anything to worry from Palm. Even still I'm glad there are at least a few competitors like Palm that if nothing else will help keep Apple on their toes.
  • Reply 148 of 210
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It means what --- you might actually had turn-by-turn nav apps like VZ Navigator on the original iphone in June 2007. That's a plus for consumer instead of waiting until July 2009 for AT&T to release AT&T Navigator for the iphone. You still didn't get full bluetooth use until June 2009, so Verizon couldn't have done worse.



    The API's in the phone simply didn't exist until 3.0 to support turn by turn, so carrier doesn't matter their.



    Bluetooth is an apple responsibility, not a carriers.



    Verizon or AT&T would have had no effect on either of your (poor) examples.
  • Reply 149 of 210
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    3rd party turn-by-turn nav apps are available on Verizon phones on the GIN store --- like AAA Mobile Navigator. So you could have multiple turn-by-turn apps available on the Verizon iphone in 2007, instead of 2009.



    Really, you can run apps from other phone architectures on the iPhone? That's amazing!



    /sarcasm



    Really, you should try to understand stuff you are commenting on better...



    Quote:

    Least desperate means that Verizon would have forced Apple into dropping many of these idiotic ideas from day 1 --- like $600 iphone with a 2 year contract, like revenue sharing... That would have been a big plus for consumers. All those first gen "revolutionary" iphone ideas --- turned up to be idiotic and quickly drop.



    Really? Well, Apple did get it and they made a ton of money. And AT&T has had positive growth and customer retention as well. And two years is "quickly"?



    Are you sure you don't work for Verizon?
  • Reply 150 of 210
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    OK, I know you work for Verizon now...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    And many of the v3.0 improvements are not available for the older iphones (even the newer 3G iphone) as hardware requirements are different.



    Two 3.0 features are hardware specific - compass and voice recognition.



    Two features is hardly "many"



    Don't you ever get a backache from over-reaching so much?
  • Reply 151 of 210
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    ...Don't you ever get a backache from over-reaching so much?



    I've lost the plot on this thread... I *was* going to make a reacharound joke...
  • Reply 152 of 210
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    Interesting article except the iPhone is not an iPod. The iPhone came with BT from day one. Apple has upgraded BT connectivity on all iPhone's as they have upgraded the OS.



    Plus you don't need a license to create headphones for the iPod so I retract my interesting comment, it's actually a pretty stupid article if I think about it more.



    But hey, conspiracies are more fun and certainly generate more web clicks. No motivation for exaggeration there either



    Yeah, but you couldn't do much with that bluetooth with the iphone originally --- like playing music with it. You can do a phone call with bluetooth, but that was it.



    Money is money. If you think that there are other reasons why for profit companies do certain things (other than money) --- then those are really conspiracies.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    Really? So your saying he should have acquiesced to Verizon's demands and maintained the status quo of the cellular industry?



    No thanks.



    And what makes you think Verizon's network would have fared any better the AT&T's? Weren't the pro CDMA people bragging about how with CDMA you didn't need as many towers? That would just exacerbate a data overload/capacity problem.



    I don't think Apple has anything to worry from Palm. Even still I'm glad there are at least a few competitors like Palm that if nothing else will help keep Apple on their toes.



    What would Apple would have to give up? Allowing the carrier to subsidize the iphone. Not trying the idiotic revenue sharing.



    I never said that Verizon would have fared any better with the iphone launch --- in fact, in this thread alone, I have repeated stated that Verizon would have been hit by increased traffic just like AT&T.



    Doesn't matter whether Apple has to "worry" about Palm or not --- killing a competitor outright is always better, for financial reasons. Unless you were Microsoft and had to keep Apple afloat 10 years ago for anti-trust reasons.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    The API's in the phone simply didn't exist until 3.0 to support turn by turn, so carrier doesn't matter their.



    Bluetooth is an apple responsibility, not a carriers.



    Verizon or AT&T would have had no effect on either of your (poor) examples.



    If Apple started with Verizon, then every single first gen iphone would have all the A-GPS set-up in hardware --- which would have pushed Apple to implement those API's earlier.



    I never claimed that bluetooth is a carrier responsibility --- I only replied to comments about Verizon would be a "bad" partner on the consumer point of view (and these people used bluetooth as an example of Verizon badness). Well, Verizon couldn't have done worse.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    Really, you can run apps from other phone architectures on the iPhone? That's amazing!



    /sarcasm



    Really, you should try to understand stuff you are commenting on better...



    Really? Well, Apple did get it and they made a ton of money. And AT&T has had positive growth and customer retention as well. And two years is "quickly"?



    Are you sure you don't work for Verizon?



    Well, if only Apple allow java on the iphone --- but that's sarcasm.



    Short term profit vs. long term profit of partnering with Verizon and wiping out Palm by never allowing Palm to get rescued in 2007. I'll take long term profit any day.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    OK, I know you work for Verizon now...



    Two 3.0 features are hardware specific - compass and voice recognition.



    Two features is hardly "many"



    Don't you ever get a backache from over-reaching so much?



    There are also those 3D graphics that will keep a lot of games (which are the popular iphone genre) out of the hands of users with older iphones.
  • Reply 153 of 210
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post


    Apparently AT&T is also faltering in their service for Blackberries:



    AT&T yanks BlackBerry Bold visual voicemail software update



    I guess it's the iPhone's fault.



    NO!!! It's ATnT's fault! ;0
  • Reply 154 of 210
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Considering that AT&T didn't even get to see much of the iphone prototype tells you that it's highly unlikely for Verizon to reject the iphobe because on technical stuff.



    And considering that apps didn't even come into the iphone until 1 year after the iphone was launch tells you that this theory is even further off.



    Verizon has had its own version of apps for years. They even have VCAST, they're "exclusive" video clip service. The iPhone came with apps and it didn't take a genius to figure out it would soon have many more. Everyone knew we'd have third party apps pretty quickly.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Footloose301 View Post


    Agreed. I don't think anybody could have anticipated such a successful take off. Unfortunately everyone has to point fingers at AT&T when it would have happened to any one of the carriers. Yes, if it were released on several carriers at once then it might not have been a problem.



    The fact is that AT&T has the iPhone, for the time being, and whats done is done. They've exceeded their network, didn't see it coming! So, now they're trying to fix it. According to the article they spent $38 billion in the past 2 years upgrading their network and people are bitching about them just now starting to fix the network? .....please..... read the article again.



    MMS is something that should have been ready for 3GS launch and I think they've dropped the ball there, but supposedly it takes quite a bit of time to calibrate the network



    I don't think there is going to be that large of an increase in MMS because many people like myself see it just as easy to send a picture or video thru email.\



    1. You don't know that it would have happened with other carriers. You simply don't know. AT&T had a smaller, technically inferior network to begin with. The fact is it MIGHT have happened to other carriers. But we don't know. What we do know is VZW's network was better to begin with (at least on the East Coast) and that multiple carriers would have split the load.



    2. They should have seen it coming. They crossed their fingers that they could be ready. They were wrong. Now they are playing catch up. And all those billions ? It's not made a dent in my service quality.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    Everything SDW2001 stated sounds reasonable to me. Apple could easily have drawn up contracts that allow them to control this or that aspect without having a physical device to show Verizon. As for apps, the iPhone came with apps like Google Maps, YouTube and QuickTime streaming via Safari, etc. that Verizon, of all carriers, would likely have not wanted to be included for free without Verizon?s oversight. His statement didn?t state 3rd-party apps, but it seems silly to think that iPhone SDK announced only a few months after the iPhone?s release was not something well planned in advance. I think it?s likely that any contract that Apple would have drawn up would have included control of future offerings, like an app store, where previously such things were controlled by the carrier. I also recall reading that Verizon didn?t like the idea of Apple controlling the call center and repairs of the iPhone.



    Well put.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Yes, those reasons were also given in January 2007 interview that I cited earlier.



    The only concrete evidence that you can rely on is that Verizon interview in Jan 2007 --- it was given a week after the keynote speech and 5 months before the actual iphone launch. There was no monday morning quarterbacking.



    All the other stuff that SDW2001 mentioned are just speculations and rumors --- without a single evidence to back them up. Remember that Apple approached Verizon in 2005 --- many many years before the app store, before Google even announced Google Maps, hell before youtube was even founded. That is some revisionist retelling of Apple's intention to put in a bunch of these partner apps onto the iphone.



    That Verizon Jan 2007 interview provided no non-sense, no revisionist evidence.



    I don't claim to "know" what happened, just what I've read and heard. My understanding is that AT&T was willing to do the deal VZW wasn't. They were willing to abide by Apple's restrictions on everything from sale price to subsidizing to proprietary features/apps.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post


    In his defense, he did qualify it with ?I?ve heard? and it doesn?t sound like he was stating it as fact. Even the Verizon statement should be taken with a grain of salt as any decent company would spin any such thing to favour themselves.



    As for Google Maps and YouTube, you have a point about specifics, but this is Apple butting heads with Verizon. I?d imagine Apple had a pretty vague contract that was all inclusive of such things, sans things that didn?t affect voice revenue directly like VoIP. Something that I?d imagine Verizon would laugh at Apple?s hubris right off the bat. I?d love to have seen these negotiations in play with both companies arrogantly scoffing at the other.



    That's what I think too. I think Apple approached VZW first with a list of demands. VZW told them to go pound sand.
  • Reply 155 of 210
    one day VZ will be able to sell the Jesus phone. if they make a statement like "at&t did not fulfill your service expectations and we'll provide a guide to help you leave them with no ETF", then this would be the end of at&t. this would change the marketplace from one of ETF fear, to a meritocracy. Here, VZ wins.
  • Reply 156 of 210
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,015member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fulldecent View Post


    one day VZ will be able to sell the Jesus phone. if they make a statement like "at&t did not fulfill your service expectations and we'll provide a guide to help you leave them with no ETF", then this would be the end of at&t. this would change the marketplace from one of ETF fear, to a meritocracy. Here, VZ wins.



    AT&T controls that, not VZW. They could offer a credit towards the ETF, though. It really could be done with a month or two or free service. I killed my VZW contract 5 months early (maybe 6) and the fee was $95.00. I complained and they reduced it to $45.00. For most people they really could offer one free month...that would cover it and screw AT&T.



    Edit: I don't think the above will happen. It will likely just go multi-carrier.
  • Reply 157 of 210
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Apple makes a lot of money on licensing fees for third party ipod and iphone docks --- that's why it took forever to get the bluetooth working.



    The dock connector and Bluetooth have little to do with each other. But if you want to continue that conspiracy. The iPhone can still do much more with the dock connector than it can do with BT.





    Quote:

    Apple not signing with Verizon was the biggest mistake by Steve Jobs.



    Yes because VZW is known for selling phones that make people happy.



    Quote:

    If Apple signed Verizon, Palm wouldn't have been rescued and we would have never seen the Palm Pre. As those credit card commercials said it best --- wiping out a competitor is priceless.



    Seeing as Apple provided webkit and pushes the HTML standards that enable the Pre to exist, I doubt crushing Palm is on Apple's agenda, and it would be bad for consumers.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It means what --- you might actually had turn-by-turn nav apps like VZ Navigator on the original iphone in June 2007. That's a plus for consumer instead of waiting until July 2009 for AT&T to release AT&T Navigator for the iphone. You still didn't get full bluetooth use until June 2009, so Verizon couldn't have done worse.



    So you are arguing it would be better for consumers to have the option of paying VZW for VZNavigator or AAA Mobile Navigator, rather than having free Google Maps and the choice of several payed apps from the top GPS navigation software developers.



    Quote:

    If Apple started with Verizon, then every single first gen iphone would have all the A-GPS set-up in hardware --- which would have pushed Apple to implement those API's earlier.



    If Apple did not feel it was ready to implement A-GPS as a hardware feature, how would it have benefit anything for VZW to force them to? You make it sound as if VZW is know for having excellent GPS navigation on its phones.



    Quote:

    I never said that wiping out healthy competition is good for the consumer, I said that it was good for Apple.



    It would not be good for Apple, Apple needs competition.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    3rd party turn-by-turn nav apps are available on Verizon phones on the GIN store --- like AAA Mobile Navigator. So you could have multiple turn-by-turn apps available on the Verizon iphone in 2007, instead of 2009.



    Why are VZ Navigator and AAA Mobile Navigator the only options. Why doesn't VZW offer TomTom and Garmin navigation software?



    Quote:

    Least desperate means that Verizon would have forced Apple into dropping many of these idiotic ideas from day 1 --- like $600 iphone with a 2 year contract, like revenue sharing... That would have been a big plus for consumers. All those first gen "revolutionary" iphone ideas --- turned up to be idiotic and quickly drop.



    Why are you so against revenue sharing? The carrier is paying Apple a premium either way it goes, they either pay it up front or over time. It seemed that AT&T did not mind paying the revenue over time.
  • Reply 158 of 210
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    We do know what VZW actively controls the amount of data that can be used on its phones. None of VZW phones offer sophisticated browsers. The best selling VZW phones have tiny screens that are not conducive to prolong web use. VZW doesn't offer many web services that encourage people to have extended data use. VZW limits its mobile broadband to 250MB and 5GB, it does not offer an unlimited option at all.



    So Verizon is concerned with and control its network data usage.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    You don't know that it would have happened with other carriers. You simply don't know. AT&T had a smaller, technically inferior network to begin with. The fact is it MIGHT have happened to other carriers. But we don't know. What we do know is VZW's network was better to begin with (at least on the East Coast) and that multiple carriers would have split the load.



  • Reply 159 of 210
    Hi,



    I have had two iPhones and am now using the 3GS. I love the phone but the biggest hassle for me is the constant dropped calls. I can't make/receive a call from my house, which drives me crazy. Driving on Hwy 101 from Santa Maria to Paso Robles, California, I encounter areas where one minute the phone shows five bars and the next minute there's only one bar. I don't even bother to answer calls I receive while driving, I just send them to voice mail as soon as the phone rings.



    This summer my wife and I drove across country. She also has an iPhone, one of the original models. There were long stretches of road where there was simply no service for either of us, and this was while driving on both smaller state highways and the major interstates. ATT should be doing more to improve the basic service, though I do appreciate their taking the plunge/risk to go with Apple in the first place. One wishes for reliable basic service (fewer dropped calls, etc.), never mind all of the bells and whistles services. I'd be tempted to switch to Verizon if it were possible to do so.



    Love the phone, though.
  • Reply 160 of 210
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The dock connector and Bluetooth have little to do with each other. But if you want to continue that conspiracy. The iPhone can still do much more with the dock connector than it can do with BT.



    Yes because VZW is known for selling phones that make people happy.



    Seeing as Apple provided webkit and pushes the HTML standards that enable the Pre to exist, I doubt crushing Palm is on Apple's agenda, and it would be bad for consumers.



    So you are arguing it would be better for consumers to have the option of paying VZW for VZNavigator or AAA Mobile Navigator, rather than having free Google Maps and the choice of several payed apps from the top GPS navigation software developers.



    If Apple did not feel it was ready to implement A-GPS as a hardware feature, how would it have benefit anything for VZW to force them to? You make it sound as if VZW is know for having excellent GPS navigation on its phones.



    It would not be good for Apple, Apple needs competition.



    Why are VZ Navigator and AAA Mobile Navigator the only options. Why doesn't VZW offer TomTom and Garmin navigation software?



    Why are you so against revenue sharing? The carrier is paying Apple a premium either way it goes, they either pay it up front or over time. It seemed that AT&T did not mind paying the revenue over time.



    If JBL can sell a stereo that can stream music from the iphone or ipod via bluetooth --- then JBL don't have to pay for the licensing fee for the dock. It's as simple as that. Money is money, everything else is conspiracy theories.



    VZW doesn't have to make people happy --- they make money for their partners and their customers have the highest customer satisfaction rate.



    Palm chose to use webkit --- and Apple once they open-source the webkit, Apple doesn't have a choice to exclude Palm. Also Apple has been excluding Palm Pre from syncing with itunes.



    Google Maps is not a turn-by-turn nav apps. Verizon doesn't restrict other nav app makers from selling their apps in the GIN store. So it's those nav app makers' choice to whether to develop for the Verizon GIN store. What, you are going to blame Verizon because these other app makers (like tomtom) are not developing for the GIN store.



    VZ Navigator has been the most popular app on the GIN store and they have been offering it for a long long long time. When every single zero dollar phone can use that function, you know that Verizon knows certain thing or two on the subject.



    It's not about whether I am against revenue sharing or not --- it's about Apple wasting valuable time and energy on a failed business model. It was a failed experiment for Apple to try the $600 iphone with a 2 year contract and the revenue sharing. They could have spent that time and energy on more productive work.
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