They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
Does this work with politicians as well?
How often does hearing loss kill people?
The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
Yes, but the regulation merely controls the default setting of the player. It doesn't say a user can't change that after the fact. Being that most people don't really understand what levels over extended period of time are dangerous I don't see anything wrong with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by postguru
What we need is LESS government control over what is and is not 'good' for us.
You cannot effectively control how 'loud' someone's MP3 player is, all this will do is lower the user's enjoyment of their music. As someone else pointed out, the volume of music is totally dependent on the music source - unless the manufacturers have some way of measuring the actual decibel level of each song (and also different 'passages' in that song), there is no way this will do anything other than hurt the user experience.
I am a 59 year old recording engineer that played in rock bands for 20 years. I also find that the 'stock' Apple earbuds are not loud enough for me to accurately hear all the types of music that I listen to, so I have purchased very expensive headphones just to get the volume that is required for me to hear the music at a level that where I can 'feel' the emotion. As a recording engineer, I can tell you that there are MANY parts in a song that are very rarely heard by the average user because they require good equipment and a decent volume to hear. These parts are purposely recorded and mixed at a subconscious level - they are intended to add to the 'feel' or 'emotion' of a song without taking away from the primary instrumentation. I like to listen to my music at a level that is just barely enough for me to discern these 'hidden' parts, and to do that usually requires a fairly high volume level.
Now, most of you probably think my eardrums are shot from a lifetime of listening to 'loud' music. In fact, I have recently had a hearing test, and the audiologist was completely shocked that I was still hearing frequencies that supposedly cannot be heard by someone over 30 years of age (our ability to hear higher frequencies like the sizzle of a cymbal naturally declines over our lifetime). My hearing was excellent, even after 45 years of playing in Rock Bands and a lifetime of mixing music at the higher volume levels that I just described. Here is the reason for this:
1). When I played in Rock Bands, I always kept myself positioned at an angle to the speakers - if I felt pain in my ears from the volume, I would position myself or the speakers until the sound level was 'comfortably loud'.
2). Mixing music at a volume high enough to hear the 'subconscious' components of the arrangements DOES NOT mean listening with the volume 'Flat Out'. Again, it is possible to set the volume loud enough to get all the nuances from the music without being 'uncomfortably' loud.
3). Using the right equipment (headphones that can help discern these musical nuances through quality rather than 'brute force' volume).
Determining a decibel level that is damaging vs safe depends on so many unquantifiable factors for each specific case as to make it laughable. The responsibility of determining what is 'too loud' and what is NOT clearly lies with the individual listening to the music. If the music is at a level that actually 'hurts' or is uncomfortable to listen to, then you should be smart enough to back it down a notch. Even if you are intent on listening to the maximum volume possible, that is YOUR prerogative. Each individuals lifestyle is their responsibility. Even though government has gotten as far as dictating that we wear seat belts, motorcycle helmets and bicycle helmets, there are no laws to stop people from pigging out on obviously ridiculous portions of unhealthy foods (resulting in a huge increase of obesity and Type 2 diabetes), smoking cigarettes (no need to detail the negative effects here), excessive drinking, and abuse of prescription drugs.
Unless an individual's irresponsible behavior puts others at risk (such as with second hand smoke, driving under the influence, etc.), then the government has no right to put laws into effect governing that behavior.
I'd agree with you IF hearing loss was likely going to lead to death. Unfortunately, in the US people will just rely on taxpayer hand outs to foot the bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasein
They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru
Would someone really be able to sue Apple for hearing damage due to setting the volume too loud of their own free will and choice?
I suppose if a woman can sue McDonald's for spilling hot coffee on herself and win, anything's possible.
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
There was no legal limit as to the temperature of coffee served in a restaurant.
Coffee is supposed to be served at 180 degrees Fahrenheit.
My father used to like their coffee because it was hot. I found it strange that someone who takes a paper cup of coffee and puts it between her legs, and then starts the car, isn't surprised that the cup will get squashed, and the coffee will get spilled over themselves. That was what I read had happened.
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
Did a McDonald's employee spill the coffee on the woman?
Does Apple force people to listen to music at levels that damage their hearing?
Really, where does personal responsibility end and government/corporate responsibility begin?
This is all bull. I expect in a few moths to be told the exact way to wipe my ass by these busybodies. Its like a massive nanny state.
Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a really stupid I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of control freaks out there to limit the volume for me......
Currently, the volume options increases with percentage. Like 10% or 80%. Is it possible to show both percentage and the decibels together (top and below the volume bar)? This way, I can get an idea how loud the music really is? Coz the current percentage thing doesn't give an idea about how many decibels we're listening to. Sounds complicated, but is it possible?
This is all bullshit. I expect in a few moths to be told the exact way to wipe my ass by these fucking busybodies. Its like a massive nanny state.
Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a fucking retard I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of poofs out there to limit the volume for me......
This is just like hitler but without the cute little moustache, fucking control freaks. Are we not overdue another world war?
lol
I'm glad there are people out there who get equally irritated by it all.
You know it really is the stupid people who want these regulations. I know a few real dumbasses with zero common sense, and they all believe that the nanny state is a good thing. What really annoys me is that they cannot comprehend that I CAN comprehend what is good or bad for me.
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone.
It irritates me so much I'm actually considering moving.
Just go. Whining about such kind of harmless attempts at educating the kidz, lol... I can understand that it is frightening you/encroaching on your freedom (sic).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick
Are people still going on about this? Christ on a surfboard, this has been going on since the inception of the Walkman.
Loud music can cause hearing loss. We know. We get it.
Hmm, maybe that the kidz do not know what was a Walkman?
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
Excellent point...watch them ignore it. I'd add I can't imagine how these top down thinkers are ever going to implement something like this that does what they claim. As a person ages, hearing naturally diminishes, requiring higher and higher volume levels. To engineer a solution around a 'normal' person leaves a handicapped one out in the cold....unless it's modifiable, in which case, you didn't accomplish anything after all. I think a better solution would be to require all teenagers to have volume governors implanted in their inner ears.
You need them Bose noise cancelling thingys. After trying on some at the store the next time I'm on a flight I would really like to use them.
Too bad you can't take a fast undersea train between the US and Europe (not yet anyway). Eurostar between London and Brussels was impressively quiet. As was for the intercity or something between the Netherlands and to Dusseldorf/ Cologne.
Flying nowadays is quite hazardous, probably mostly for stress reasons (delays, etc.) ... They should actually ban the in-flight headphones, you definitely have to turn that up way too much because of the surrounding noise. They should provide some sort of noise-isolating headphones.
Ah well, cest la vie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
I have some of my own numbers there.
I've got some audio programs for my iPhone, which is really convenient.
When I was flying to and fro to the UK, I measured noise levels on the plane.
One flight where I was at the wing, and at a emergency exit, I measured average noise levels, unweighted at between 90 and 95 db in the bass, and about 85 db in the midrange, while the treble was lower, at about 75 db.
On other flights, I measured about 5 db lower.
But when walking to the rear of the plane, the levels rose to a good 5 db higher than the readings produced from a non exit seat, to about the same.
Those levels are far too high for a 6.25 hour flight there, and the 7.5 hour flight back.
Far too high.
This also means that if someone is listening to a movie or music on the plane, just like when listening on the subway, they have to turn the volume up even further to hear what they are listening to properly, which means that it's WAY too high.
I never use headphones or earbuds on flights, even when I've traveled first class where the noise is somewhat lower, as it is at the front of the plane.
The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
It's the "discos" that probably were more the culprit. That and aging.
This is dumb. Put a warning sticker on the headphones. If people can't make this connection on their own tough.
for adults this is certainly true. but what about children. they aren't as smart or careful. and in this day many of them are using music players without mommy or daddy standing next to them the whole time to make them turn down the music
Also, i'm not sure everyone gets what they are talking about. there has been much research about what levels of noise will cause damage over sustained periods. and yes some headphones get that loud. what the EU is trying to do is keep the levels under that red zone. which will protect the ears, likely eliminate the annoying bled out by the guy next to you, and reduce accidents caused by things like music so loud you don't hear the car horn honking when you are walking in front of a moving car cause you didn't look before walking into the cross walk.
really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal. like everything else, those that don't like it will find a way to hack around it. just like you did the 'att only if you buy an iphone in the us', 'no putting Mac OS X on that Dell netbook' and so on
Comments
They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
Does this work with politicians as well?
How often does hearing loss kill people?
The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone
Sorry.
I just imagined you reciting that in a smoky lounge, sitting on a tall stool, wearing a black turtleneck (ala Steve Jobs) and argyle socks.
Brilliant.
Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone
Sorry.
hehe
What next? A Ferrari that's government-limited to 5mph?
Kinda ironic that the continent of the world's fastest cars would feel a need to protect people from themselves.
What next? A Ferrari that's government-limited to 5mph?
Limiters on cars are very likely. I have read of a few remote traffic calming projects.
What we need is LESS government control over what is and is not 'good' for us.
You cannot effectively control how 'loud' someone's MP3 player is, all this will do is lower the user's enjoyment of their music. As someone else pointed out, the volume of music is totally dependent on the music source - unless the manufacturers have some way of measuring the actual decibel level of each song (and also different 'passages' in that song), there is no way this will do anything other than hurt the user experience.
I am a 59 year old recording engineer that played in rock bands for 20 years. I also find that the 'stock' Apple earbuds are not loud enough for me to accurately hear all the types of music that I listen to, so I have purchased very expensive headphones just to get the volume that is required for me to hear the music at a level that where I can 'feel' the emotion. As a recording engineer, I can tell you that there are MANY parts in a song that are very rarely heard by the average user because they require good equipment and a decent volume to hear. These parts are purposely recorded and mixed at a subconscious level - they are intended to add to the 'feel' or 'emotion' of a song without taking away from the primary instrumentation. I like to listen to my music at a level that is just barely enough for me to discern these 'hidden' parts, and to do that usually requires a fairly high volume level.
Now, most of you probably think my eardrums are shot from a lifetime of listening to 'loud' music. In fact, I have recently had a hearing test, and the audiologist was completely shocked that I was still hearing frequencies that supposedly cannot be heard by someone over 30 years of age (our ability to hear higher frequencies like the sizzle of a cymbal naturally declines over our lifetime). My hearing was excellent, even after 45 years of playing in Rock Bands and a lifetime of mixing music at the higher volume levels that I just described. Here is the reason for this:
1). When I played in Rock Bands, I always kept myself positioned at an angle to the speakers - if I felt pain in my ears from the volume, I would position myself or the speakers until the sound level was 'comfortably loud'.
2). Mixing music at a volume high enough to hear the 'subconscious' components of the arrangements DOES NOT mean listening with the volume 'Flat Out'. Again, it is possible to set the volume loud enough to get all the nuances from the music without being 'uncomfortably' loud.
3). Using the right equipment (headphones that can help discern these musical nuances through quality rather than 'brute force' volume).
Determining a decibel level that is damaging vs safe depends on so many unquantifiable factors for each specific case as to make it laughable. The responsibility of determining what is 'too loud' and what is NOT clearly lies with the individual listening to the music. If the music is at a level that actually 'hurts' or is uncomfortable to listen to, then you should be smart enough to back it down a notch. Even if you are intent on listening to the maximum volume possible, that is YOUR prerogative. Each individuals lifestyle is their responsibility. Even though government has gotten as far as dictating that we wear seat belts, motorcycle helmets and bicycle helmets, there are no laws to stop people from pigging out on obviously ridiculous portions of unhealthy foods (resulting in a huge increase of obesity and Type 2 diabetes), smoking cigarettes (no need to detail the negative effects here), excessive drinking, and abuse of prescription drugs.
Unless an individual's irresponsible behavior puts others at risk (such as with second hand smoke, driving under the influence, etc.), then the government has no right to put laws into effect governing that behavior.
They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
Does this work with politicians as well?
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
Would someone really be able to sue Apple for hearing damage due to setting the volume too loud of their own free will and choice?
I suppose if a woman can sue McDonald's for spilling hot coffee on herself and win, anything's possible.
Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone
Sorry.
Hey, not bad!
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
There was no legal limit as to the temperature of coffee served in a restaurant.
Coffee is supposed to be served at 180 degrees Fahrenheit.
My father used to like their coffee because it was hot. I found it strange that someone who takes a paper cup of coffee and puts it between her legs, and then starts the car, isn't surprised that the cup will get squashed, and the coffee will get spilled over themselves. That was what I read had happened.
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.
If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.
The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?
Did a McDonald's employee spill the coffee on the woman?
Does Apple force people to listen to music at levels that damage their hearing?
Really, where does personal responsibility end and government/corporate responsibility begin?
Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a really stupid I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of control freaks out there to limit the volume for me......
Damn control freaks.
This is all bullshit. I expect in a few moths to be told the exact way to wipe my ass by these fucking busybodies. Its like a massive nanny state.
Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a fucking retard I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of poofs out there to limit the volume for me......
This is just like hitler but without the cute little moustache, fucking control freaks. Are we not overdue another world war?
lol
I'm glad there are people out there who get equally irritated by it all.
You know it really is the stupid people who want these regulations. I know a few real dumbasses with zero common sense, and they all believe that the nanny state is a good thing. What really annoys me is that they cannot comprehend that I CAN comprehend what is good or bad for me.
Sheep people.
Loud music can cause hearing loss. We know. We get it.
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone.
It irritates me so much I'm actually considering moving.
Just go. Whining about such kind of harmless attempts at educating the kidz, lol... I can understand that it is frightening you/encroaching on your freedom (sic).
Are people still going on about this? Christ on a surfboard, this has been going on since the inception of the Walkman.
Loud music can cause hearing loss. We know. We get it.
Hmm, maybe that the kidz do not know what was a Walkman?
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
Excellent point...watch them ignore it. I'd add I can't imagine how these top down thinkers are ever going to implement something like this that does what they claim. As a person ages, hearing naturally diminishes, requiring higher and higher volume levels. To engineer a solution around a 'normal' person leaves a handicapped one out in the cold....unless it's modifiable, in which case, you didn't accomplish anything after all. I think a better solution would be to require all teenagers to have volume governors implanted in their inner ears.
Too bad you can't take a fast undersea train between the US and Europe (not yet anyway). Eurostar between London and Brussels was impressively quiet. As was for the intercity or something between the Netherlands and to Dusseldorf/ Cologne.
Flying nowadays is quite hazardous, probably mostly for stress reasons (delays, etc.) ... They should actually ban the in-flight headphones, you definitely have to turn that up way too much because of the surrounding noise. They should provide some sort of noise-isolating headphones.
Ah well, cest la vie.
I have some of my own numbers there.
I've got some audio programs for my iPhone, which is really convenient.
When I was flying to and fro to the UK, I measured noise levels on the plane.
One flight where I was at the wing, and at a emergency exit, I measured average noise levels, unweighted at between 90 and 95 db in the bass, and about 85 db in the midrange, while the treble was lower, at about 75 db.
On other flights, I measured about 5 db lower.
But when walking to the rear of the plane, the levels rose to a good 5 db higher than the readings produced from a non exit seat, to about the same.
Those levels are far too high for a 6.25 hour flight there, and the 7.5 hour flight back.
Far too high.
This also means that if someone is listening to a movie or music on the plane, just like when listening on the subway, they have to turn the volume up even further to hear what they are listening to properly, which means that it's WAY too high.
I never use headphones or earbuds on flights, even when I've traveled first class where the noise is somewhat lower, as it is at the front of the plane.
How often does hearing loss kill people?
The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.
Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
It's the "discos" that probably were more the culprit. That and aging.
This is dumb. Put a warning sticker on the headphones. If people can't make this connection on their own tough.
for adults this is certainly true. but what about children. they aren't as smart or careful. and in this day many of them are using music players without mommy or daddy standing next to them the whole time to make them turn down the music
Also, i'm not sure everyone gets what they are talking about. there has been much research about what levels of noise will cause damage over sustained periods. and yes some headphones get that loud. what the EU is trying to do is keep the levels under that red zone. which will protect the ears, likely eliminate the annoying bled out by the guy next to you, and reduce accidents caused by things like music so loud you don't hear the car horn honking when you are walking in front of a moving car cause you didn't look before walking into the cross walk.
really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal. like everything else, those that don't like it will find a way to hack around it. just like you did the 'att only if you buy an iphone in the us', 'no putting Mac OS X on that Dell netbook' and so on