New standards to limit Apple iPod volume in Europe

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post


    People just need to learn, if you listen to it too loud you lose hearing simple concept.



    I think we they should do the same thing with the sun, mandatory sunglasses, until you sign a waver.



    Most people don't even realise it though. My sister is younger than me and most people would describe her hearing as average (she listens to her iPod in the car loud enough for me to be able to hear songs in the front and distinguish words whilst the radio is on). However, I can hear a wider range of frequencies than her and my hearing is generally better. It doesn't affect her life - for now - but I'm willing to bet that most people listening to loud music on a regular basis assume their hearing is perfect. It will be interesting when the 11 year olds of the ipod age reach 65.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post


    To anyone on here that has a Zune HD, does it have volume limiting features.

    I think there are only sold domestically, so it really doesn't matter, but the question came up talking to some people about this.





    No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).
  • Reply 62 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sensi View Post


    Just go. Whining about such kind of harmless attempts at educating the kidz, lol... I can understand that it is frightening you/encroaching on your freedom (sic).



    I am going. I'm sick of europe.
  • Reply 63 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal.



    Because it's just yet another example of the nanny state. The big picture is the sum of all these regulations. The fun has been ripped out of society by moral crusaders who think we are all as stupid as they are, and that we are incapable of thinking for ourselves.



    Example: Our local park used to have an event where they did stunts with motorcycles and cars once a year for as long as I can remember. Then regulations were bought in so that spectators had to be a maximum distance away. So far away that you couldn't see anything, nobody bothered going, and now it doesn't happen at all.
  • Reply 64 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by postguru View Post


    NO, I did not know that standard tests only went to 8 KHz.

    I took this test specifically to find out if I was still able to hear high frequencies, and the people administering this test were well aware of my intentions (I discussed my history and purpose for taking the test in detail). They gave me the impression that the test did check the higher frequencies because they specifically mentioned that they had never seen someone my age being able to hear the frequencies that I did - but they did not mention an actual number. Since this was given as a 'free' test, I am now curious if this test did indeed only check to 8 KHz. I did pass the test with flying colors, but since this was a free test, I am now afraid they may have mentioned the 'frequency' thing just to butter me up. I am now going to check into this to see exactly what this test proved.

    If I find you are correct about the specific test I took, do you know if they do a more extensive test and what kind of test I should be asking for?



    Thanks for the input, Joe



    Hi Postguru,



    Yes a standard hearing test only goes to 8kHz. Some clinical audiometers can test beyond this (to 12 kHz), but what's the point. I realise you would like to know, but there is no clinical advantage in knowing. The human range of hearing is proposed as 20 Hz to 20 kHz. However, most people struggle to hear at frequencies beyond 8 kHz unless they have specifically trained ears - like musicians, sound engineers (like yourself) and some audiophiles.



    The reason why audiologists test in the (125Hz if in USA) 250 Hz (Elsewhere) - 8000 Hz range is that this is the range of speech sounds and obviously most relevant as to whether someone has a hearing loss or not. I am not suprised they were amazed at your age not having a noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) - congrats, you are a rarity. They should have given you an audiogram which is a graph of your hearing - google it, it would tell you if you have a loss or not across a range of frequencies. Audiologists use the audiogram as a measure of type and degree of hearing loss, but it is a behavioural test, that result is further confirmed with comparison of other physiological measures that are not behaviourally based - immitance testing and speech discrimination.



    A NIHL shows as a characteristic notch at 4kHz in an audiogram, but can be present between 3-6 kHz, at 8kHz a high frequency loss can begin to develop in older people. A notch develops at 2 kHz (Bone Conduction) usually associated with a mixed hearing loss and indicative of otosclerosis - a hardening of the middle ear ossicles. These are just some of the reasons for testing at specific frequencies and not others.



    I hope that helps
  • Reply 65 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    How often does hearing loss kill people?



    The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.



    Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.



    Studies on NIHL (noise induced hearing loss) and music players actually began with the walkman era and yes they were/are capable of causing a NIHL. However the saving grace was battery life. This has been held up as the single most significant factor that has contributed to the massive increase in NIHL among teens and young adults, battery life! Players now go for days without recharging, meaning exposure is for longer. At higher levels the TTS or temporary threshold shift after longer exposure becomes a PTS or permanent threshold shift or a NIHL.



    Published studies have shown music players recorded with SLM's (sound level meters) at the earpiece at a weighted average dB A of 90 - 120! for periods up to 4-(8) hours, some cases 12 hrs per day, 5 days a week! Published research in audiology. Measured in weighted dB A, exposure looks like this - At 85 dB A - a max of 8 hrs. For every increase of 3 dB (essentially a doubling of loudness), exposure time must half! - to avoid a PTS. dB A is used as a measure of noise as it de-emphasises low and very high frequencies (weighting) and emphasises everything in between making it a very effective measure of noise/music.



    The EU is only thinking of how many hearing aids($) they will have to provide in the future for the dumb-ass Gen X's and Gen Y's who are damaging their hearing. If the european nations are anything like Australia (where I am) they have national schemes to provide free hearing aids, once you reach a certain age.



    Its all about protecting us from ourselves - how can that be a bad thing?
  • Reply 66 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmjb View Post


    The EU is only thinking of how many hearing aids($) they will have to provide in the future for the dumb-ass Gen X's and Gen Y's who are damaging their hearing.



    So they are ALL stupid and cant think for themselves?....



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmjb View Post


    Its all about protecting us from ourselves - how can that be a bad thing?



    You may need protecting from yourself, but i certainly dont. How dare an authority tell me what I can or cant do to myself. It's my body not yours, not the governments, not the EU's. Mine.



    If I want to skewer myself in the eye, thats up to me, but don't ban skewers, as it would ruin everyones barbecues.

    Punishing the masses for the actions of a few is wrong.



    Should we ban rock climbers? Do they need protecting from themselves?

    Should we ban cars? For do they not kill hundreds of people every week?

    Should we ban all kitchen knives because someone got stabbed?



    Where does it end.



    I dunno about you but the thought of walking to work and eating steak with a spoon sounds crap. I'l take the risk thanks, if I'm allowed that is?.
  • Reply 67 of 103
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    This type of stuff really irritates me. Firstly, if people want to deafen themselves, then let them, it's a free country and there is no cure for stupidity. And secondly, sometimes a podcast or audiobook will be be quiet, for whatever reason, so I need to turn the volume up so I can actually hear it above the noise of the train/car/air conditioning etc.



    And that some politicial goons in the EU parliament were actually paid to come up with junk like this... boggles the mind.
  • Reply 68 of 103
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by star-fish View Post




    No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).



    No they aren't. The Zune does not exist in the UK in any form. Never has.
  • Reply 69 of 103
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    The ruling applies to the default setting. Nothing more nothing less. Apple currently gives you the option of changing those settings to the ones the EU wants the device shipped with on default.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Undo Redo View Post


    You say that like you're sure of it.



  • Reply 70 of 103
    At last, a market for my black market headphone amp business!
  • Reply 71 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post


    lol

    I'm glad there are people out there who get equally irritated by it all.



    You know it really is the stupid people who want these regulations. I know a few real dumbasses with zero common sense, and they all believe that the nanny state is a good thing. What really annoys me is that they cannot comprehend that I CAN comprehend what is good or bad for me.

    Sheep people.



    I have no problem with regulation. The problem i have with the EU is they are an unelected body and accountable to no one. They can now make laws and overrule Governments that have been democratically elected by its people. That's what's irritating me. We're losing our democracy, doesn't that scare the hell out of you?
  • Reply 72 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    for adults this is certainly true. but what about children. they aren't as smart or careful. and in this day many of them are using music players without mommy or daddy standing next to them the whole time to make them turn down the music



    Also, i'm not sure everyone gets what they are talking about. there has been much research about what levels of noise will cause damage over sustained periods. and yes some headphones get that loud. what the EU is trying to do is keep the levels under that red zone. which will protect the ears, likely eliminate the annoying bled out by the guy next to you, and reduce accidents caused by things like music so loud you don't hear the car horn honking when you are walking in front of a moving car cause you didn't look before walking into the cross walk.



    really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal. like everything else, those that don't like it will find a way to hack around it. just like you did the 'att only if you buy an iphone in the us', 'no putting Mac OS X on that Dell netbook' and so on



    Parents are responsible for educating their children. At least they used to be.



    Perhaps the outcry over this is indicative of a larger, more pervasive problem of which this particular issue is only a microcosm: the gradual erosion of personal liberty and responsibility - essential to the existence of any free society.



    Today, it's the default volume of a music device. If we're not careful, it could soon be what kind of music you can put on said device.
  • Reply 73 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post


    I have no problem with regulation. The problem i have with the EU is they are an unelected body and accountable to no one. They can now make laws and overrule Governments that have been democratically elected by its people. That's what's irritating me. We're losing our democracy, doesn't that scare the hell out of you?



    Damn right it does, the whole thing is a disaster. Unfortunately it's only going to get worse so I'm outta here, I do not wish to bring up my children in europe.
  • Reply 74 of 103
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    NO, but the issue is did MacDonald's act reasonably? If aware of the facts, most people would say no. That is what the law requires MacDonald's to do: act reasonably.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    Did a McDonald's employee spill the coffee on the woman?



    Does Apple force people to listen to music at levels that damage their hearing?



    Really, where does personal responsibility end and government/corporate responsibility begin?



  • Reply 75 of 103
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    You got your facts wrong. The cup was Styrofoam, she was the passenger, and the vehicle was parked. I find it strange that coffee spilled on somebody would give them third degree burns sending them to the hospital for three days. I expect to be burnt if I spill hot coffee on myself, but not sent to the hospital.



    Further, MacDonald's manual at the time said 195 to 205 was the proper brewing temperature [perhaps true] and that is should be held at 180 to 190 degrees to serve. Skin burns at 140.



    Most places around me serve hot beverages at 155 to 160 degrees.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    There was no legal limit as to the temperature of coffee served in a restaurant.



    Coffee is supposed to be served at 180 degrees Fahrenheit.



    My father used to like their coffee because it was hot. I found it strange that someone who takes a paper cup of coffee and puts it between her legs, and then starts the car, isn't surprised that the cup will get squashed, and the coffee will get spilled over themselves. That was what I read had happened.



  • Reply 76 of 103
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    You need them Bose noise cancelling thingys. After trying on some at the store the next time I'm on a flight I would really like to use them.



    Too bad you can't take a fast undersea train between the US and Europe (not yet anyway). Eurostar between London and Brussels was impressively quiet. As was for the intercity or something between the Netherlands and to Dusseldorf/ Cologne.



    Flying nowadays is quite hazardous, probably mostly for stress reasons (delays, etc.) ... They should actually ban the in-flight headphones, you definitely have to turn that up way too much because of the surrounding noise. They should provide some sort of noise-isolating headphones.



    Ah well, cest la vie.



    I'm not a Bose fan in general. There are other companies that make similar products, but I've not had enough interest in buying them. Wearing headphones for 6 to 8 hours at a stretch isn't exactly fun either.



    Yeah, the london to Brussels train works, but that's a pretty short route. Try doing that for 3,400 miles while under 5 or more miles of water.



    In addition, my daughter, who has investigated London to EU travel now that she's there, tells me that it's actually cheaper to fly most places in the EU from there than to take the train. Go figure!
  • Reply 77 of 103
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by star-fish View Post




    No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).



    You sure about that? MS has said that they aren't sold in Europe at all.
  • Reply 78 of 103
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post


    Because it's just yet another example of the nanny state. The big picture is the sum of all these regulations. The fun has been ripped out of society by moral crusaders who think we are all as stupid as they are, and that we are incapable of thinking for ourselves.



    Example: Our local park used to have an event where they did stunts with motorcycles and cars once a year for as long as I can remember. Then regulations were bought in so that spectators had to be a maximum distance away. So far away that you couldn't see anything, nobody bothered going, and now it doesn't happen at all.



    Why should I have to pay higher insurance rates because people are going to need hearing aids and doctor's visits?



    If, somehow, people who did stupid things, like smoking, had to pay much more for medical insurance, I wouldn't mind it as much, as long as I wasn't adversely affected, either in my own, and my family's health. But it doesn't work that way.



    Auto insurance forces people who get into accidents to pay higher premiums (or at least they used to, as in some states here they have "no fault", a bad idea).



    If you're in a profession that is risky, you pay higher rates.



    So people having risky behavior should pay higher rates as well.



    Then I wouldn't care.



    But we ALL pay for these morons, and so we should care.
  • Reply 79 of 103
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post


    So they are ALL stupid and cant think for themselves?....







    You may need protecting from yourself, but i certainly dont. How dare an authority tell me what I can or cant do to myself. It's my body not yours, not the governments, not the EU's. Mine.



    If I want to skewer myself in the eye, thats up to me, but don't ban skewers, as it would ruin everyones barbecues.

    Punishing the masses for the actions of a few is wrong.



    Should we ban rock climbers? Do they need protecting from themselves?

    Should we ban cars? For do they not kill hundreds of people every week?

    Should we ban all kitchen knives because someone got stabbed?



    Where does it end.



    I dunno about you but the thought of walking to work and eating steak with a spoon sounds crap. I'l take the risk thanks, if I'm allowed that is?.



    "The greater good" - to quote from Hot Fuzz - The movie,



    Yeah a reckless few always spoil it for others. But hey, NIHL is the greatest preventable disability, so if they can't educate - legislate. Look I have no problem with you wanting to skewer your own eye, but if you do it to someone else then I think we should certainly ban you from using skewers. I was just trying to express why I think the EU is going down this track. My support/non-support is irrelevant.



    I think as a parent my job is to educate my children about the dangers of noise and help them to make an enlightened choice, if that doesn't work...... can I borrow a skewer!
  • Reply 80 of 103
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,238member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post


    So they are ALL stupid and cant think for themselves?....







    You may need protecting from yourself, but i certainly dont. How dare an authority tell me what I can or cant do to myself. It's my body not yours, not the governments, not the EU's. Mine.



    If I want to skewer myself in the eye, thats up to me, but don't ban skewers, as it would ruin everyones barbecues.

    Punishing the masses for the actions of a few is wrong.



    Should we ban rock climbers? Do they need protecting from themselves?

    Should we ban cars? For do they not kill hundreds of people every week?

    Should we ban all kitchen knives because someone got stabbed?



    Where does it end.



    I dunno about you but the thought of walking to work and eating steak with a spoon sounds crap. I'l take the risk thanks, if I'm allowed that is?.



    As I keep mentioning, this all comes down to money.



    It's interesting that the same people who complain about nanny, will gladly accept that "free" hearing aid. It's not free, of course. A good heading aid costs at least $500 US, and can easily go to $1,000 US. This is per ear.



    Who pays for that? All the people paying taxes, including the non stupid ones. Why should they pay for the stupid ones then?



    Same thing for insurance.



    Buy your own hearing aids.
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