I love iWork. I like the integration with iPhoto and iWeb...everything is pretty much click and drag. It is so clever and a pleasure to work on. My daughter is in Medical school and loves the templates. I'm in real estate and the graphing capabilities just make my reports look fantastic. I never use Office anymore.
The best office productivity suite in the world just got a tad better. Apple, thanks for giving us this absolutely brilliant alternative to Microshit Office Garbage.
The person above who recommends Word for editing Word documents, despite a preferences for Pages is correct, at least in my opinion.
I prefer working in Pages too. But when you edit in Pages a document that originates in Word, things can sometimes get muddled in things like footnotes, or the use of graphics within tables.
Some clients as me to prepare documents based on their seriously over-baked Word power-templates. If I pull those templates into Pages, edit, then return to Word for delivery, some things get lost in translation. I don't always have the time to make the fixes.
Tom
While working with Office (Word) files I miss one feature that really annoys me. If I open Word file, I guess I want automatically save it as Word file again, thus plain "Save" should update the original Word document. I hate I have to go to the Export command. Or at least it should be somewhat configurable in Preferences.
errr.. no!? firts automatic updates are hourly based. on a hour you could as well just written 20 pages or something, done half of a database and programmed a couple of subroutines...
second, not always are we with the timecapsule disk around. mine is at home, i kind of used my macbook in the portable sense of a laptop... let's say, at work /university?
third, i'm a phd candidate, doing phd research and prefer to have my data encrypted. wich means that the timemachine backups are only done when i logout and i'm connected to my backup disck. wich is usually once a week.
again, is it too much to ask for a simple routine of save a backup copy every 5 minutes? wanna compare every office application outthere that doesn't provide this feature?
Okay, so the backups are produced/updated only when saving your work. It would be useful to have it save a copy more often. I have been in the habit for a long time of saving regularly, almost sub-consciously. What's your PhD in?
Brilliant.. an entire, supposedly superior office suite that lacks the most basic and fundamental feature of all! NO Autosave.. what does it takes to Apple to simply correct this mistake?!
this is absurd. it's a fourth iteration software and they missed this despite the irate customers at apple discussion foruns saying that they've discovered this the very hard way! (me included...)
hoped they would correct with this update. apparently the all mighty Apple developers stand high on they horses to look at us the peasants that buy& use their software...
and yes, very much pissed off on this.
Autosave is one of the worst features anybody could incorporate on a universal basis.
Years ago when Word first introduced the feature, the rants were prolific. Save is like Trashing. Get in the habit of doing it routinely and purposely or not at all.
Bet most here never used "Versions?" in Word 2004. Doesn't appear that it is available in 2008.
If you really need it, create an script with Applescript or Automator setting it to automatically save a backup version of the document each time it runs.
Certainly, your rant is not necessary or certainly nothing to get pissed off about.
yea, iWork rocks unless you have to work with clients with MS office. But personally, I still muddle through with both iWork and Office 2007/8 to get that work done. If only the world had gone the other way...
BTW, has anyone figured out how to get margins in keynote handouts 3/4 up? The prints from that leave no margins even though set in the printer setup. Maddening and well documented bug!
errr.. no!? firts automatic updates are hourly based. on a hour you could as well just written 20 pages or something, done half of a database and programmed a couple of subroutines...
second, not always are we with the timecapsule disk around. mine is at home, i kind of used my macbook in the portable sense of a laptop... let's say, at work /university?
third, i'm a phd candidate, doing phd research and prefer to have my data encrypted. wich means that the timemachine backups are only done when i logout and i'm connected to my backup disck. wich is usually once a week.
again, is it too much to ask for a simple routine of save a backup copy every 5 minutes? wanna compare every office application outthere that doesn't provide this feature?
Personally, I hope autosave is never introduced, or I'd probably turn it off. I hit Command-S every few minutes without even thinking about it if I'm working on a large document in Pages, etc. There have been times where I realized that I needed to go back in time a few minutes, undoing a lot of changes, and I could just close the file without saving. I've never once been burned by not having autosave, and I work in iWork a LOT.
Just my opinion. I'm sure we could find a ton of users on either side of this issue.
First time I used iWork was to edit a Word doc that someone had sent me. It didn't go very well. Pages opened the doc and it looked more or less like it did in Word, but there were a lot of minor formatting differences.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering, which is always going to be an imperfect process. That's a lot of built-in limitations right from the get-go.
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster. I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
With over 40 years writing ad copy, business and marketing plans, education programmes, etc., as a copy writer, author, editor, management consultant, etc., and owner operator of a advertising agency, the last thing I have learned never to do was to allow another to personally modify my master electronic file or vice versa.
Absolutely! I have never understood the attraction of "collaborating" on documents by sending them to others and having them edit them directly. In all cases where I have been involved, someone has the responsibility for the final document production. Serial editing just does not work, IMO, and its value has little/nothing to do with file formats, etc. It's just a bad idea!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless
While working with Office (Word) files I miss one feature that really annoys me. If I open Word file, I guess I want automatically save it as Word file again, thus plain "Save" should update the original Word document. I hate I have to go to the Export command. Or at least it should be somewhat configurable in Preferences.
This can't be done, and should not be done. Pages is not a Word clone (and thank Apple for that) so like every other application it requires a native file format to store it unique features.
I've only been using Mac for about 12 years but have not lost any files due to format change ... was worried about applework files when iWork came out ... was very vocal and unhappy at first, especially since Pages was not free like appleworks, missed database as well, but I have to say ... Iwork, when you get used to it , at least for me, really rocks... still miss database 'tho ... still on tiger so can't use Bento. I'm going to upgrade to SL soon so then I'll get Bento . Specifically, what format change are you worried about?
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
Such as...? I've been buying and using Apple products for a long time, and can't think of a single instance of the "problem" you are describing.
Enhances security with 128-bit SSL encryption and document password protection
This is the feature I WANT on the MobileMe website, at least Mail and Contacts. Then the service will be more secure when using shared or public access computers.
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. Specifically, what was the name of the last software that was "offed" with no warning, making your workflow useless? I'm really curious.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. Specifically, what was the name of the last software that was "offed" with no warning, making your workflow useless? I'm really curious.
I am too. And I have been using Mac's for 25 years now.
I just downloaded the trial from Apple, I'm looking to get out of MS Office. I hope this is as good as the reviews I've been reading.
iWork is a very good suite. That being said, its achilles heal is that it cannot be set to save by default in any formats other than the native ones. If you're dealing with word files, you have to save them manually every time and the save dialog does not automatically go to the folder of the original file. As much as I love iWork, this is what lead me to use OpenOffice instead.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering
Not so. The Word format is proprietary, but it is (and always has been) publicly documented by Microsoft here along with all the other Office binary (pre-XML) formats. No reverse engineering required. That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly possible.
Quote:
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster.
That's irrelevant. Pages can either read the Word format properly or not.
Quote:
I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
It's not difficult in Word, but many users never bother to learn how.
Quote:
I have never understood the attraction of "collaborating" on documents by sending them to others and having them edit them directly.
In the specific case I mentioned it was my employer sending me a Word "template" where I had to fill in the required information.
Quote:
This can't be done, and should not be done. Pages is not a Word clone (and thank Apple for that) so like every other application it requires a native file format to store it unique features.
Rubbish. Pages could easily save Word files as Word files by default, perhaps warning the user if any unique Pages features would be lost by doing this, much the same way that Office handles the editing and saving of files from older versions of Office or other 3rd party formats (eg CSV and RTF). That wouldn't in any way make it a Word clone.
iWork is a very good suite. That being said, its achilles heal is that it cannot be set to save by default in any formats other than the native ones. If you're dealing with word files, you have to save them manually every time and the save dialog does not automatically go to the folder of the original file. As much as I love iWork, this is what lead me to use OpenOffice instead.
Like many people, I have the misfortune of having to collaborate with people that for sad reasons use Word or OpenOffice. It makes me waste a lot of time cleaning up the Word formatting garbage. That being said I have no problem doing a save as... Word at the end of my review. It is a minor step with a few clicks. I don't see the need to complain about this.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering, which is always going to be an imperfect process. That's a lot of built-in limitations right from the get-go.
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster. I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
That is because Word just doesn't work. The thing is so full of bugs one cannot tell bugs for "working as intended". I remember once that the mere act of pulling an automatic Table of Contents in Word corrupted the entire file, making me waste days. Styles in Word is like asking a police officer to do Calculus. Word is a patched and rotten jumble of rags and loincloths put together with spit. Pages is a Borg Cube.
Not so. The Word format is proprietary, but it is (and always has been) publicly documented by Microsoft here along with all the other Office binary (pre-XML) formats. No reverse engineering required. That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly possible.
Very much so. Public documentation does not give anyone use permission; if that was the case, everyone would do it. Microsoft understands the power of owning file formats, which is why they protect them so jealously.
Quote:
That's irrelevant. Pages can either read the Word format properly or not.
This is very relevant in my experience. Documents with messed up formatting are going to become even more messed up when they are translated, and fixing the mess is going to be far more difficult.
Quote:
It's not difficult in Word, but many users never bother to learn how.
And why don't they bother to learn? Because it's difficult. To my best recollection, I have never, once is all my years of dealing with Word documents, ever encountered a single properly formatted document. Not once. Invariably, all of the fonts and tabs and character styles are applied manually and show as "Normal."
Quote:
In the specific case I mentioned it was my employer sending me a Word "template" where I had to fill in the required information.
That's always a pain. I've never seen one of these documents formatted properly either.
Quote:
Rubbish. Pages could easily save Word files as Word files by default, perhaps warning the user if any unique Pages features would be lost by doing this, much the same way that Office handles the editing and saving of files from older versions of Office or other 3rd party formats (eg CSV and RTF). That wouldn't in any way make it a Word clone.
This is so utterly wrong from every standpoint, I hardly know where to begin. File formats exist for a reason, which is to store the features unique to that software. Exporting should be an explicit action which tells the user that they are risking changing something within the file when they take that action, and requires that it generate a duplicate file and not alter the original. Making an export automatic simply attempts to fool the user into believing that they are getting something that they are not getting, and of course destroys the formatting which is unique to the software without retaining it anywhere. It would be not only terrible human engineering, but also a great way to screw up documents and screw users.
A Save As... or Export... is the right and proper way to handle this operation. If that's too much trouble (a concept which amazes me), they should just stick to Word. I hope they love it, because they will never use anything else.
Comments
Best.
The person above who recommends Word for editing Word documents, despite a preferences for Pages is correct, at least in my opinion.
I prefer working in Pages too. But when you edit in Pages a document that originates in Word, things can sometimes get muddled in things like footnotes, or the use of graphics within tables.
Some clients as me to prepare documents based on their seriously over-baked Word power-templates. If I pull those templates into Pages, edit, then return to Word for delivery, some things get lost in translation. I don't always have the time to make the fixes.
Tom
While working with Office (Word) files I miss one feature that really annoys me. If I open Word file, I guess I want automatically save it as Word file again, thus plain "Save" should update the original Word document. I hate I have to go to the Export command. Or at least it should be somewhat configurable in Preferences.
errr.. no!? firts automatic updates are hourly based. on a hour you could as well just written 20 pages or something, done half of a database and programmed a couple of subroutines...
second, not always are we with the timecapsule disk around. mine is at home, i kind of used my macbook in the portable sense of a laptop... let's say, at work /university?
third, i'm a phd candidate, doing phd research and prefer to have my data encrypted. wich means that the timemachine backups are only done when i logout and i'm connected to my backup disck. wich is usually once a week.
again, is it too much to ask for a simple routine of save a backup copy every 5 minutes? wanna compare every office application outthere that doesn't provide this feature?
Okay, so the backups are produced/updated only when saving your work. It would be useful to have it save a copy more often. I have been in the habit for a long time of saving regularly, almost sub-consciously. What's your PhD in?
Brilliant.. an entire, supposedly superior office suite that lacks the most basic and fundamental feature of all! NO Autosave.. what does it takes to Apple to simply correct this mistake?!
this is absurd. it's a fourth iteration software and they missed this despite the irate customers at apple discussion foruns saying that they've discovered this the very hard way! (me included...)
hoped they would correct with this update. apparently the all mighty Apple developers stand high on they horses to look at us the peasants that buy& use their software...
and yes, very much pissed off on this.
Autosave is one of the worst features anybody could incorporate on a universal basis.
Years ago when Word first introduced the feature, the rants were prolific. Save is like Trashing. Get in the habit of doing it routinely and purposely or not at all.
Bet most here never used "Versions?" in Word 2004. Doesn't appear that it is available in 2008.
If you really need it, create an script with Applescript or Automator setting it to automatically save a backup version of the document each time it runs.
Certainly, your rant is not necessary or certainly nothing to get pissed off about.
BTW, has anyone figured out how to get margins in keynote handouts 3/4 up? The prints from that leave no margins even though set in the printer setup. Maddening and well documented bug!
errr.. no!? firts automatic updates are hourly based. on a hour you could as well just written 20 pages or something, done half of a database and programmed a couple of subroutines...
second, not always are we with the timecapsule disk around. mine is at home, i kind of used my macbook in the portable sense of a laptop... let's say, at work /university?
third, i'm a phd candidate, doing phd research and prefer to have my data encrypted. wich means that the timemachine backups are only done when i logout and i'm connected to my backup disck. wich is usually once a week.
again, is it too much to ask for a simple routine of save a backup copy every 5 minutes? wanna compare every office application outthere that doesn't provide this feature?
Personally, I hope autosave is never introduced, or I'd probably turn it off. I hit Command-S every few minutes without even thinking about it if I'm working on a large document in Pages, etc. There have been times where I realized that I needed to go back in time a few minutes, undoing a lot of changes, and I could just close the file without saving. I've never once been burned by not having autosave, and I work in iWork a LOT.
Just my opinion. I'm sure we could find a ton of users on either side of this issue.
Which version of Pages were you using? Compatibility has improved markedly with '09 (version 4.0.2) in my understanding.
Definitely the '09 version, although not sure which n.n.n version it is.
First time I used iWork was to edit a Word doc that someone had sent me. It didn't go very well. Pages opened the doc and it looked more or less like it did in Word, but there were a lot of minor formatting differences.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering, which is always going to be an imperfect process. That's a lot of built-in limitations right from the get-go.
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster. I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
With over 40 years writing ad copy, business and marketing plans, education programmes, etc., as a copy writer, author, editor, management consultant, etc., and owner operator of a advertising agency, the last thing I have learned never to do was to allow another to personally modify my master electronic file or vice versa.
Absolutely! I have never understood the attraction of "collaborating" on documents by sending them to others and having them edit them directly. In all cases where I have been involved, someone has the responsibility for the final document production. Serial editing just does not work, IMO, and its value has little/nothing to do with file formats, etc. It's just a bad idea!
While working with Office (Word) files I miss one feature that really annoys me. If I open Word file, I guess I want automatically save it as Word file again, thus plain "Save" should update the original Word document. I hate I have to go to the Export command. Or at least it should be somewhat configurable in Preferences.
This can't be done, and should not be done. Pages is not a Word clone (and thank Apple for that) so like every other application it requires a native file format to store it unique features.
I've only been using Mac for about 12 years but have not lost any files due to format change ... was worried about applework files when iWork came out ... was very vocal and unhappy at first, especially since Pages was not free like appleworks, missed database as well, but I have to say ... Iwork, when you get used to it , at least for me, really rocks... still miss database 'tho ... still on tiger so can't use Bento. I'm going to upgrade to SL soon so then I'll get Bento . Specifically, what format change are you worried about?
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
Such as...? I've been buying and using Apple products for a long time, and can't think of a single instance of the "problem" you are describing.
Enhances security with 128-bit SSL encryption and document password protection
This is the feature I WANT on the MobileMe website, at least Mail and Contacts. Then the service will be more secure when using shared or public access computers.
It's not a "format change" I worry about. It's Apple's habit of crafting interesting, easy to use software then "offing" it with no warning leaving folks who got a workflow going stumbling in the dark looking for solutions. I foresee the day (possibly sometime soon) when Steve gets bored with iWork apps and kills the whole kit and kaboodle.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. Specifically, what was the name of the last software that was "offed" with no warning, making your workflow useless? I'm really curious.
I guess I wasn't clear enough. Specifically, what was the name of the last software that was "offed" with no warning, making your workflow useless? I'm really curious.
I am too. And I have been using Mac's for 25 years now.
I just downloaded the trial from Apple, I'm looking to get out of MS Office. I hope this is as good as the reviews I've been reading.
iWork is a very good suite. That being said, its achilles heal is that it cannot be set to save by default in any formats other than the native ones. If you're dealing with word files, you have to save them manually every time and the save dialog does not automatically go to the folder of the original file. As much as I love iWork, this is what lead me to use OpenOffice instead.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering
Not so. The Word format is proprietary, but it is (and always has been) publicly documented by Microsoft here along with all the other Office binary (pre-XML) formats. No reverse engineering required. That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly possible.
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster.
That's irrelevant. Pages can either read the Word format properly or not.
I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
It's not difficult in Word, but many users never bother to learn how.
I have never understood the attraction of "collaborating" on documents by sending them to others and having them edit them directly.
In the specific case I mentioned it was my employer sending me a Word "template" where I had to fill in the required information.
This can't be done, and should not be done. Pages is not a Word clone (and thank Apple for that) so like every other application it requires a native file format to store it unique features.
Rubbish. Pages could easily save Word files as Word files by default, perhaps warning the user if any unique Pages features would be lost by doing this, much the same way that Office handles the editing and saving of files from older versions of Office or other 3rd party formats (eg CSV and RTF). That wouldn't in any way make it a Word clone.
iWork is a very good suite. That being said, its achilles heal is that it cannot be set to save by default in any formats other than the native ones. If you're dealing with word files, you have to save them manually every time and the save dialog does not automatically go to the folder of the original file. As much as I love iWork, this is what lead me to use OpenOffice instead.
Like many people, I have the misfortune of having to collaborate with people that for sad reasons use Word or OpenOffice. It makes me waste a lot of time cleaning up the Word formatting garbage. That being said I have no problem doing a save as... Word at the end of my review. It is a minor step with a few clicks. I don't see the need to complain about this.
This is inevitable, unless you are using the same version of Word on the same platform with identical fonts, if only because the Word format is proprietary and the best anyone else can manage is reverse-engineering, which is always going to be an imperfect process. That's a lot of built-in limitations right from the get-go.
Also, I am willing to wager that the original Word document you received was a formatting disaster. I have rarely seen a Word document that wasn't a complete mess, with all of the fonts and paragraph setting applied manually instead of consistently with paragraph and font styles. Almost nobody seems to know how this is done is Word. It's much easier in Pages.
That is because Word just doesn't work. The thing is so full of bugs one cannot tell bugs for "working as intended". I remember once that the mere act of pulling an automatic Table of Contents in Word corrupted the entire file, making me waste days. Styles in Word is like asking a police officer to do Calculus. Word is a patched and rotten jumble of rags and loincloths put together with spit. Pages is a Borg Cube.
Not so. The Word format is proprietary, but it is (and always has been) publicly documented by Microsoft here along with all the other Office binary (pre-XML) formats. No reverse engineering required. That's not to say it's easy, but it's certainly possible.
Very much so. Public documentation does not give anyone use permission; if that was the case, everyone would do it. Microsoft understands the power of owning file formats, which is why they protect them so jealously.
That's irrelevant. Pages can either read the Word format properly or not.
This is very relevant in my experience. Documents with messed up formatting are going to become even more messed up when they are translated, and fixing the mess is going to be far more difficult.
It's not difficult in Word, but many users never bother to learn how.
And why don't they bother to learn? Because it's difficult. To my best recollection, I have never, once is all my years of dealing with Word documents, ever encountered a single properly formatted document. Not once. Invariably, all of the fonts and tabs and character styles are applied manually and show as "Normal."
In the specific case I mentioned it was my employer sending me a Word "template" where I had to fill in the required information.
That's always a pain. I've never seen one of these documents formatted properly either.
Rubbish. Pages could easily save Word files as Word files by default, perhaps warning the user if any unique Pages features would be lost by doing this, much the same way that Office handles the editing and saving of files from older versions of Office or other 3rd party formats (eg CSV and RTF). That wouldn't in any way make it a Word clone.
This is so utterly wrong from every standpoint, I hardly know where to begin. File formats exist for a reason, which is to store the features unique to that software. Exporting should be an explicit action which tells the user that they are risking changing something within the file when they take that action, and requires that it generate a duplicate file and not alter the original. Making an export automatic simply attempts to fool the user into believing that they are getting something that they are not getting, and of course destroys the formatting which is unique to the software without retaining it anywhere. It would be not only terrible human engineering, but also a great way to screw up documents and screw users.
A Save As... or Export... is the right and proper way to handle this operation. If that's too much trouble (a concept which amazes me), they should just stick to Word. I hope they love it, because they will never use anything else.