From OLED to Tegra: Five Myths of the Zune HD

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  • Reply 521 of 581
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Hmmmm, the iPhone/Touch have a scant 80,000 apps available, on account of the extremely controlling Apple having rejected several. It easily could have been 80,012. But for the iron fisted control.



    Whereas the wide open Zune HD has practically tens of apps, on account of the freedom!
  • Reply 522 of 581
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Hmmmm, the iPhone/Touch have a scant 80,000 apps available, on account of the extremely controlling Apple having rejected several. It easily could have been 80,012. But for the iron fisted control.



    Whereas the wide open Zune HD has practically tens of apps, on account of the freedom!



    There was one story that stated Apple pulled 943apps from one spam app developer that was purposely putting out l
  • Reply 523 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


    One thread to bind them all.







    Or to bore them all.
  • Reply 524 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Hmmmm, the iPhone/Touch have a scant 80,000 apps available, on account of the extremely controlling Apple having rejected several. It easily could have been 80,012. But for the iron fisted control.



    Whereas the wide open Zune HD has practically tens of apps, on account of the freedom!



    You're out of date, it's now over 85,000, officially.
  • Reply 525 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    There was one story that stated Apple pulled 943apps from one spam app developer that was purposely putting out l



    They pulled that one, and over 1,000 more that he had. They've also pulled at least hundreds more from other "developers", and possibly thousands.



    Doesn't seem to have slowed the juggernaut.
  • Reply 526 of 581
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. MacPhisto View Post


    The Zune HD has many other advantages. The UI, surprisingly, is far better than the iPod Touch. The Smart DJ feature, Zune Pass, the HD radio, etc are also great added features. Only thing missing is greater app support which isn't a big deal for me but is for others. Yet I think MS is playing a wait and see game here.



    "Better UI" is a subjective term. Zune has had a radio and subscription service since the original models. Other vendors have offered those features even longer. They don't seem to have ignited sales.



    It's amusing that the lack of apps for the original iPhone and Touch was made out to be a 'deal breaker'... and now the lack of apps for Zune is 'no big deal'. Funny that!



    Microsoft has already been playing the 'wait and see' game.... and while they waited... the market has changed.



    Quote:

    The Zune HD is very likely to surpass all previous Zune sales quickly. It will not come close to the Touch just yet, but it will be the most viable alternative and when MS sees more sales they will invest more in the apps, etc. That will likely cause an increase in sales.



    I am sure that Microsoft will announce strong figures for the Zune launch and Christmas sales. And yes, Zune HD will probably surpass previous sales, eventually. However at around 3 million that bar is pretty low.



    Your "most viable alternative" argument is flawed. The most viable alternative to the iPod Touch is already here. it's called the iPhone. It's such a good alternative that it actually sells in greater numbers. Other alternatives include all the music and video capable cell phones out there. This move from PMPs to phones started a while ago... way before the iPhone was launched. It's not going to stop because one device gets a better screen and radio!



    Microsoft has already suggested what their future Zune strategy is going to be. They have been pretty vague regarding future apps for the Zune. However they seem intent that Zune will morph into a software and services thing on ... other vendor's hardware.



    Quote:

    Right now it's funny how the roles are reversed. Apple is playing MS in the PMP market. They are dominate and were innovative to start out but have stagnated a bit.



    If you mean adding the internet, always on communication, email, Google maps, 3D gaming, YouTube, GPS, instant messaging, compass, accelerometer, voice activation, navigation, cameras etc etc etc.... than perhaps you are right.... Apple are stagnating.





    Quote:

    Of course, Apple is getting a lot of negative press lately. They are acting far worse than MS ever did with their monopolistic tendencies. MS has really opened things up while Apple is more controlling than ever. That's why I ditched them.



    Microsoft's "monopolistic tendencies" included trying to stop their competition from even entering the market. Microsoft was found guilty of using one monopoly (OS) to create another (Browser). Their competitors had to try and persuade OEM's to bundle their products with PCs (Microsoft even tried to stop that), or sell them as boxed software. Microsoft simply rolled their browser into their OS. End of story. End of viable competition.



    Yes Apple are controlling, however they are exerting that control over their own products, not their competitors. Buying an iPod or downloading iTunes is a free choice. There are many more competing hardware, software and media store solutions. Microsoft's Zune platform is pretty much the same as Apple's iPod/iTunes platform. If Apple were abusing their market power then the Zune wouldn't even exist. Apple's dominance has been achieved by the popularity of it's product and early mover advantage. If Microsoft had released the Zune HD two years ago then they would have a much larger share of the market... and Apple could have done nothing to stop it.



    The competition laws are designed to prevent abuse... not prevent competition.



    _____



    Look, the Zune HD is a solid product and is a vast improvement over the previous versions. It even has some advantages over the iPod Touch. But the iPod Touch also has it's own advantages. The iPhone has even more and every other media capable cell phone has at least one major advantage.



    If you like to watch high quality video... on a small screen... and you want to discover new music easily... and pay $180 a year for it ... then the Zune HD is a a great product. But the market has moved on. The cell phone has taken over, soon to be joined by an array of small higher spec tablet style computers (from not just Apple) that will fill the gap between notebook and phone.
  • Reply 527 of 581
    It seems everyone is still making the same points they have been since this article was first released. Now let's pay attention folks, here's the facts:



    - Yes, your precious iTouch can access iTunes' apps. Now so can Zune! More to come... http://www.zuneboards.com/?p=vB45679

    - What was that? I heard something about 3D gaming not happening on the Zune... http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/38975/226669.aspx

    - Also, Audiosurf is coming soon, and more Steam games are currently being talked about.

    - Genius? How about Smart DJ? I'd say I'd prefer Smart DJ personally, but that is just opinion. Let's be mindful that I have a Zune HD and my sister has an iTouch 2g.

    - Battery life. I've seen it in action. You've seen videos. Need I say more?

    - OLED in direct sunlight. In all honesty, you know the iTouch is not in any better of a scenario, so calm down, people.

    - 18% more screen means nothing when it still pales in comparison. Also, Zune is a widescreen device. It can sacrifice a few pixels to feel more comfortable.

    - Um, and, btw, to those who somehow didn't know, Podcasts have been available to Zune since day one.

    - And last, but not least, Marketplace vs. iTunes Store. IT'S THE SAME GODDAMN THING. Zune is slicker, but nobody cares, it's really the same thing. Things like the Zune Pass and whatnot are not valid enough points when you can do the same without the device.
  • Reply 528 of 581
    Quote:

    It's amusing that the lack of apps for the original iPhone and Touch was made out to be a 'deal breaker'... and now the lack of apps for Zune is 'no big deal'. Funny that!



    Sadly enough, what that tells me is that without apps, the iTouch and iPhone would just be a thing of the past, forgotten and worthless, but the Zune can survive without them...



    Just saying.
  • Reply 529 of 581
    parkyparky Posts: 383member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    It seems everyone is still making the same points they have been since this article was first released. Now let's pay attention folks, here's the facts:



    - Yes, your precious iTouch can access iTunes' apps. Now so can Zune! More to come... http://www.zuneboards.com/?p=vB45679

    - What was that? I heard something about 3D gaming not happening on the Zune... http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/38975/226669.aspx

    - Also, Audiosurf is coming soon, and more Steam games are currently being talked about.

    - Genius? How about Smart DJ? I'd say I'd prefer Smart DJ personally, but that is just opinion. Let's be mindful that I have a Zune HD and my sister has an iTouch 2g.

    - Battery life. I've seen it in action. You've seen videos. Need I say more?

    - OLED in direct sunlight. In all honesty, you know the iTouch is not in any better of a scenario, so calm down, people.

    - 18% more screen means nothing when it still pales in comparison. Also, Zune is a widescreen device. It can sacrifice a few pixels to feel more comfortable.

    - Um, and, btw, to those who somehow didn't know, Podcasts have been available to Zune since day one.

    - And last, but not least, Marketplace vs. iTunes Store. IT'S THE SAME GODDAMN THING. Zune is slicker, but nobody cares, it's really the same thing. Things like the Zune Pass and whatnot are not valid enough points when you can do the same without the device.



    You can think that the Zune is comparable, but we will see what happens to the sales figures.



    To quote a famous idiot "The Zune is a rounding error" - Balmer.
  • Reply 530 of 581
    parkyparky Posts: 383member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    Sadly enough, what that tells me is that without apps, the iTouch and iPhone would just be a thing of the past, forgotten and worthless, but the Zune can survive without them...



    Just saying.



    What an idiot, it is not even surviving NOW.
  • Reply 531 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    It seems everyone is still making the same points they have been since this article was first released. Now let's pay attention folks, here's the facts:



    - Yes, your precious iTouch can access iTunes' apps. Now so can Zune! More to come... http://www.zuneboards.com/?p=vB45679

    - What was that? I heard something about 3D gaming not happening on the Zune... http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/38975/226669.aspx

    - Also, Audiosurf is coming soon, and more Steam games are currently being talked about.

    - Genius? How about Smart DJ? I'd say I'd prefer Smart DJ personally, but that is just opinion. Let's be mindful that I have a Zune HD and my sister has an iTouch 2g.

    - Battery life. I've seen it in action. You've seen videos. Need I say more?

    - OLED in direct sunlight. In all honesty, you know the iTouch is not in any better of a scenario, so calm down, people.

    - 18% more screen means nothing when it still pales in comparison. Also, Zune is a widescreen device. It can sacrifice a few pixels to feel more comfortable.

    - Um, and, btw, to those who somehow didn't know, Podcasts have been available to Zune since day one.

    - And last, but not least, Marketplace vs. iTunes Store. IT'S THE SAME GODDAMN THING. Zune is slicker, but nobody cares, it's really the same thing. Things like the Zune Pass and whatnot are not valid enough points when you can do the same without the device.



    One company porting over one program they have to the Zune doesn't mean anything. We all expect a small number of developers to do that.



    As far as the rest, well, sure they'll get a few games as well.



    As far as the rest goes, it's just your opinion.



    I'd say that the 18% greater pixel count is far more useful that blacker blacks (sometimes), and better angle viewing on what is, after all, a one person device.



    Menus are much better on Apple's screen, as are the still overwhelming number of videos, Tv shows, and movies that AREN'T widescreen, and never will be. All of that is much smaller on the narrow Zune screen.



    Marketplace is good, but MS has to get rid of the widely despised "points" system where it LOOKS as though you're paying less for something, but you are not, and where you must buy blocks of points, that's been pointed out so many times, and in so many places, that doesn't align with the prices of anything, so that some of those points end up in MS's pocket, not back in yours.



    Do I hear ripoff from you? I should.
  • Reply 532 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    Sadly enough, what that tells me is that without apps, the iTouch and iPhone would just be a thing of the past, forgotten and worthless, but the Zune can survive without them...



    Just saying.



    That's a joke of course.



    Both the iPhone and Touch were beating the pants of MS's creations well before Apple came out with the App Store, and they would still.



    But the App Store moves them well beyond MS's latest, and possibly last, effort.



    The zune is a basic player, pretty good, finally, but other wise not very impressive.



    It'll probably sell better than the last, but the last didn't sell very well, did it? With an entire line of players last year, all MS sold was a million. now they've dropped everything else for this.



    Let's see what it can do.
  • Reply 533 of 581
    Finally! A Forum that gives logical points!

    Thank god some people actually want to talk about it instead of just being all "my internet penis is soooooo much bigger".



    The point system is retarded. I've used the marketplace once, and said fuck that noise afterwards.



    I'm 75% positive there will be a Zune Mobile device before MS throws in the towel, that's what they get for letting Apple take the lead way before attempting to bring anyone in themselves.



    That being said, I don't want the Zune to die.

    I consider the menus on the Zune far more user friendly and slick, but again, just my opinion.

    I think MS has made the most beautiful music player by far, and that's something I've always given to Apple.

    But, a beauty contest this is not.



    Yes, iTouch is doing better. Only directly after dropping their price $20 to get under the Zune.

    The HD is formidable, and I think it will show that after a couple weeks, if received well publicly, it will put itself on the map.

    I think most people are just waiting to see what others have to say.
  • Reply 534 of 581
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,397member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. MacPhisto View Post




    iTunes is terrible on the PC.



    No it isn't. I keep hearing this shibboleth over and over. I've found the experience on the two platforms to be nearly identical for five years and like 87 versions now - and enjoy the subtle and big improvements which just keep coming (like a new half-white/half-blue indicator showing that I've only listened to part of podcast. Little improvements that you just discover and know what they are without even being told are cool.



    And iT4W helped make me a switcher.



    (Little stylistic disimprovements, tho', are less cool. The scrub bar's so narrow now it's hard to get ahold of with the mouse, and the search box for your collection doesn't highlight the last search term when you click into it as most search bars in browsers and such do.....)



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steven R Wilson View Post


    That would have been really funny if you'd got the reference right! lol.. cry..



    It's:



    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

    One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Ring



    1. Not horseshoes? (as in close enough) and 2. Metaphoric license. 3) Thanx 4 the quote anyway. I read the book a jillion years ago, so not up to full Tolkien speed. Surprised I remembered anything.
  • Reply 535 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    Finally! A Forum that gives logical points!

    Thank god some people actually want to talk about it instead of just being all "my internet penis is soooooo much bigger".



    The point system is retarded. I've used the marketplace once, and said **** that noise afterwards.



    I'm 75% positive there will be a Zune Mobile device before MS throws in the towel, that's what they get for letting Apple take the lead way before attempting to bring anyone in themselves.



    That being said, I don't want the Zune to die.

    I consider the menus on the Zune far more user friendly and slick, but again, just my opinion.

    I think MS has made the most beautiful music player by far, and that's something I've always given to Apple.

    But, a beauty contest this is not.



    Yes, iTouch is doing better. Only directly after dropping their price $20 to get under the Zune.

    The HD is formidable, and I think it will show that after a couple weeks, if received well publicly, it will put itself on the map.

    I think most people are just waiting to see what others have to say.



    First, I have to say not to use certain words on the forum.



    Otherwise, yes, the Zune HD is a pretty good music player, and, if one is watching widescreen video, a pretty good video player as well.



    But now that I've finally seen it for myself, I wonder about some of their choices.



    You mentioned the screen. It seems to me that MS made the decision to use a narrowed screen with less resolution because of cost. It's been shown that the AMOLED is by far, the most expensive part of the player. Choosing a smaller screen is making a silk purse out of a sows ear, wouldn't you say?



    I found that when looking at the device's screen, that blacks were definitely better, though most of the time, the blacks on my iPhone were pretty close.



    But when watching video, the difference narrowed. As video often doesn't have good blacks, a dead black screen doesn't help as much as it might seem from looking at graphics.



    Saturation seems about even, again with the Zune HD getting a few points on graphics, but not usually on video.



    I've been seeing people comment on the Zune finally getting better battery life than the Touch. Previously, the Zune had barely more than half the life of the Touch.



    But, MS rates the battery life with WiFi off, while Apple rates it with WiFi on. So we'll have to see how that stacks up in real tests.



    But it's going to be harder to test the HD because of the AMOLED screen. An LCD screen uses the same amount of power whether the screen is black or white, whereas the AMOLED uses much more when white, but much less (not zero) when black.



    So with an LCD based product, it doesn't matter if anything is on the screen or not when doing music tests, or phone tests, etc. The AMOLED screen will give an advantage for when the screen is dark, as it should.



    But when doing video tests, what are they going to do with the screen? What brightness level are they going to test with? There are several standards. Which one they choose will make a difference, sometimes a big difference. I see a lot of controversy arising because of those tests.



    Whatever the results, most consumers will never read them anyway.



    I'd like to see some sales numbers. So far, MS has been mum. We can't go by the "sold out" at some locations jazz, because as we've seen with the Palm Pre, there might not be very many of these in the stores, so that doesn't tell us anything.
  • Reply 536 of 581
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    Sadly enough, what that tells me is that without apps, the iTouch and iPhone would just be a thing of the past, forgotten and worthless, ....



    Great post!



    I'll take it a little further. So what it tells me is that if Apple had never built the iPod, any iPod, Zune would have more than 1% of the market.



    Just sayin'
  • Reply 537 of 581
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by piot View Post


    Great post!



    I'll take it a little further. So what it tells me is that if Apple had never built the iPod, any iPod, Zune would have more than 1% of the market.



    Just sayin'



    All I'm saying, with the way that it was worded, that's what the comment suggested.



    And if MS wasn't so lazy as to let Apple jump on the mp3 bandwagon with 4-5 generations before they even got involved, then they would be more evenly matched.



    I am trying not to dog on Apple or iPod, more MS than them.

    But, assuming MS had their own versions out the same time as their respective Apple brethren, you wouldn't be so quick as to throw Zune out the window.
  • Reply 538 of 581
    @Melgross: I'm sorry, I should've looked up the forum rules before posting myself, I'm usually better about that.



    I can tell you that my HD lasts longer than my sister's iTouch, both WiFi on. But I do understand your point, you can't know without your own on-field testing.

    I can honestly say though, with it on and audio and video in use, it was so close it didn't matter. Maybe an extra 20-30 minutes.



    But of course, I didn't do a field test like you suggest; in other words, if I want an accurate test, I need both players set to high brightness and play a video of constant medium gray. Or something of that sort. At least, that seems a good testing apparatus, but let me know any better plans you have.



    And, like you said, it won't really matter one way or the other, it'll maybe affect a handful of people very concerned with "who makes the longest lasting" this-and-that.



    Video, going through menus, everything associated with sight, I can agree. It's not a drastic difference, video is video, and some people will still prefer Zune over iTouch and iTouch over Zune. Usability and smoothness of transition will matter more in Zune's case over the main "selling" point: HD-ism. Like I've said, I prefer Zune. Not everyone will, of course. But video is not the main thing anyone here is going to be concerned about, much less just about everywhere else.



    And lastly, you're right. SOLD OUT just means they didn't give enough out to Walmart, and does not show real sale numbers. It could mean good for MS as much as it could bad.

    And, more importantly, these are only the first few weeks. None of us are going to bet the clearest sale numbers until the product closes in on it's 4th month on the shelves.
  • Reply 539 of 581
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,325member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by o my fallacy View Post


    All I'm saying, with the way that it was worded, that's what the comment suggested.



    And if MS wasn't so lazy as to let Apple jump on the mp3 bandwagon with 4-5 generations before they even got involved, then they would be more evenly matched.



    I am trying not to dog on Apple or iPod, more MS than them.

    But, assuming MS had their own versions out the same time as their respective Apple brethren, you wouldn't be so quick as to throw Zune out the window.



    The problem with MS is that they have never had to really come out with a leading quality consumer system that made money. Never!



    The XBox has cost them billions of dollars. They will likely never come close to breaking even given that they've already lost over $7 billion on their entertainment division since it came out. The Zune's are part of that division, and are also losing money.



    This is their problem. They aren't hungry for it. They feel that they have to be in these areas, and so they are. But they take their time of it because they figure their money will allow them to continue to make mistakes until they get it sort of right.



    That's why they never lead, but trail.
  • Reply 540 of 581
    tyrtyr Posts: 4member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The problem with MS is that they have never had to really come out with a leading quality consumer system that made money. Never!



    The XBox has cost them billions of dollars. They will likely never come close to breaking even given that they've already lost over $7 billion on their entertainment division since it came out. The Zune's are part of that division, and are also losing money.



    This is their problem. They aren't hungry for it. They feel that they have to be in these areas, and so they are. But they take their time of it because they figure their money will allow them to continue to make mistakes until they get it sort of right.



    That's why they never lead, but trail.



    I would like to point out that you are make baseless assumptions about Microsoft's plans. To presume they "aren't hungry for it" when it has been stated the Zune is not their focus is ignorant at best.



    The Zune is not a means to make money. It is a means to refine a necessary and wonderfully functioning part of a whole on it's own.



    I recommend all of you Apple fanbois stop being so defensive and blind. Look to WinMo7. Your Apple products have been out of date since before they were released. Everyone in the industry understands this. You all do not.



    Look at the big picture. WinMo7 will easily (I cannot stress the easily enough) do everything the Apple products can do and much more. It already can in beta. It can run iphone apps as though it was native to the WinMo7 platform (which it isn't. It's running off an emulator, illegally). Once they finish integrating the Zune technology into WinMo7 and launch the first phone THEN the competition will start.



    This isn't even a preliminary. Stop acting like technology from the beginning of this decade will have any viable direct impact on the technology of the next decade.





    TL;DR version: All of you fanbois from both sides just shut up already. No one cares about your self aggrandizing. ignorant, and half baked opinions. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have now. The majority of you will start falling behind soon anyway. Let the next generation, both of players and of humans, do their thing. You aren't important. At all.



    Edit: Half of you posting in this forum cannot even follow a linear thought pattern (or at least lack the ability to use the english language to express that you can). Stop mouth-breathing.
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