Like everything else, some of the information you presented is correct, and some is not.
Why would you consider the OLED Association anything more than a shill for the OLED manufacturers who make up its membership?
Are they any less of a shill than AI? Highly doubtful, after all while the OLED Association is totally dependent on the LED manufacturers that pay for the salaries of the people working there, including whomever wrote the unlinked to response, AI has no direct relationship with Apple, or any other company.
The purpose of the Association is to Promote the use of LEDS, and therefor the sales and profits of its members.
They have no ax to grind. Indeed not.
Do you think that these LED manufacturers would want people to know that their products do have some problems? Hmmm. That's a tough one.
Please point out what information is not correct, I'm interested to know.
Yes, OLED manufacturers do make up the members of the committee, many of which also manufacture LCDs. Why aren't they also putting out statistics and touting LCD as the wave of the future? Do you hear Samsung talking about LCD being the newest and best technology? What about Sony? Pioneer?
You are asserting that the OLED Association is making falsifying statements, I ask that you disprove those statements. You are also implying that an Apple rumor site is more accurate of a source concerning OLEDs than the OLED Association (or at least that both sources are inaccurate because they both have an ax to grind). Think about how stupid that is.
At least agree with me on one thing: that this post is a mess of both truth and falsehoods.
Like I've said in several other Zune vs Ipod forums, I have no problem with people having preferences toward a brand or a product. Everyone is guilty of that in some way. I absolutely have a problem with people lying and misleading other consumers because of their own preferences. Don't ever let anyone tell you they know what they're talking about without going and checking their facts and at the end of it all buy the product that you want and that you know will be right for you. Personally I don't understand how people can go out and buy consumer electronics (or anything for that matter) without knowing at least a little bit about it beforehand. Electronics are expensive. I can't afford to buy something I won't like.
You did the right thing with your first post, but BusterMcgee's post was above your first post, not below.
If someone's going to be too lazy to click a link to read the article, they're not going to read a re-post of the entire article either.
Sorry about posting the entire repost instead of just doing a link, I thought it would have been easier to quote and what not, instead of having to go to an entirely different page. My deepest apologies.
But yeah, it's not even something you have to believe only the OLED Association on, anyone is free to search the spec's of OLED technology and they can see for themselves the inaccuracies in AI's myth section. Contrast ratios, refresh/response rates, viewing angles, these are all simply facts, that beyond numbers, seeing the device in person is all you need to do. And these are not just small differences either, they are on the order of 100x to 1000x times or more in favor of the OLED. That's huge! I think it will be interesting when the iPods and iPhones move to OLED (which they will) and then what will be the fight? I'm sorry, but OLED screens aren't just slightly better, they are hundreds and thousands of times better, don't believe me, go look at one, if you need help finding one, check out the Zune HD, it has one.
Seriously though, no one should ever just listen to one place without question, and I would find it hard to agree that listening entirely to one source is healthy or the best way to get accurate infomation. I really can not imagine living my life just listening to one singlur person, and blindly trusting them, especially when there are countless other sources and even person experiences that say otherwise. I think it reminds me of all the irrational people who public try and bend reality, like the birther movement, those who deny evolution, those who think the moonlanding never happened, or those who believe the government wants to kill them with death panels.
I'm not someone who refuses to listen to reason or mounting evidence against what my beliefs are. If you actually have valid claims, and just reasoning, I will listen, and if you are infact accurate and your evidence overwhelms what I have previously believed, I will consider it, then granted with factual information I would even change beliefs that I formally thought to be true. Not doing what I just explained would be to believe that everything you know as of right now is everything there is to know. If you refuse to listen to anyone, especially reason, then you are set completely in your own ways, and at that point, what does anything matter to you anyway? If you are completely set in your mind, or someone/something you listen to is infallible in your view, then what is the point of thinking anymore, or even living. In this mindset, you are the holder of all knowledge or at least you listen to the holder of all knowledge which is irrifutable, why would simple trivial issues like the screen on an PMP matter to someone which such unfathomable powers? If I know everything with out needing to reference outside sources, I would probably be in some nirvana of bliss and peace, and petty matters like choosing a Zune or iPod wouldn't have any meaning to my grand mind. But, if I was just someone who was more realistic, like the few billion people on this planet, then I might be worried about a singluar source spouting off misinformation, because if someone didn't take the time to check out the facts of this source, they might fall victum to this misinformation, and believe it. But, of course, no one would want to spread misinformation, especially about a competing companies product. I mean what would be the point of that, especially when anyone can just search for the information themselves, and see that there information is twisted and wrong. But like I said, doesn't listen to me, or any one place, search for yourself.
Please point out what information is not correct, I'm interested to know.
Yes, OLED manufacturers do make up the members of the committee, many of which also manufacture LCDs. Why aren't they also putting out statistics and touting LCD as the wave of the future? Do you hear Samsung talking about LCD being the newest and best technology? What about Sony? Pioneer?
You are asserting that the OLED Association is making falsifying statements, I ask that you disprove those statements. You are also implying that an Apple rumor site is more accurate of a source concerning OLEDs than the OLED Association (or at least that both sources are inaccurate because they both have an ax to grind). Think about how stupid that is.
At least agree with me on one thing: that this post is a mess of both truth and falsehoods.
Efficiency ratings are in dispute, reflectance ratings are in dispute.
LED backlit LCD Tv's are using them as a means to increase contrast locally, not to cut power consumption.
And all of the claims by the manufacturers are just claims by them. Where are their certified, standardized testing procedures? There aren't any yet.
Don't accuse someone of being stupid, when you are pretty stupid yourself for even coming here in the first place. What are you trying to gain by this? Why bother? We wouldn't go on a Zune forum and try to stir up trouble.
Their assertions aren't proven either.
If you weren't just coming here to troll, and had spent some time here first, you would know that all of us here are in favor of the eventual use of OLEDs. No one here is putting the technology down. It's really jut a question of whether it's ready yet.
What you aren't taking into account is that the manufacturers who are producing these small AMOLEDs produce Tv's and monitors that are LCDs, and don't compete with the small screens sold for phones and such They aren't competing with themselves much at all.
And in addition, the breakdown of the Zune showed that the AMOLED screen used cost more than twice as much as the equivalent LCD screen. If you were manufacturing LCDs and AMOLEDS at twice the price, which would you be pushing?
All that we've been saying here is that maybe this isn't the best time yet. In another year or so, the screens will drop a lot in price, and get almost twice as efficient.
And don't forget that with Apple's much larger buying power, they would pay a lot less for this screen than MS did, so it's less a matter of cost for them.
We've admitted that some of Prince's assertions are over the top. I said that right after his article came out.
perhaps you should have read our early posts, you would have found opinions across the board over it.
Your "concern" over what was said is overblown. You should be stating your defense on a Zune forum.
Sorry about posting the entire repost instead of just doing a link, I thought it would have been easier to quote and what not, instead of having to go to an entirely different page. My deepest apologies.
But yeah, it's not even something you have to believe only the OLED Association on, anyone is free to search the spec's of OLED technology and they can see for themselves the inaccuracies in AI's myth section. Contrast ratios, refresh/response rates, viewing angles, these are all simply facts, that beyond numbers, seeing the device in person is all you need to do. And these are not just small differences either, they are on the order of 100x to 1000x times or more in favor of the OLED. That's huge! I think it will be interesting when the iPods and iPhones move to OLED (which they will) and then what will be the fight? I'm sorry, but OLED screens aren't just slightly better, they are hundreds and thousands of times better, don't believe me, go look at one, if you need help finding one, check out the Zune HD, it has one.
Seriously though, no one should ever just listen to one place without question, and I would find it hard to agree that listening entirely to one source is healthy or the best way to get accurate infomation. I really can not imagine living my life just listening to one singlur person, and blindly trusting them, especially when there are countless other sources and even person experiences that say otherwise. I think it reminds me of all the irrational people who public try and bend reality, like the birther movement, those who deny evolution, those who think the moonlanding never happened, or those who believe the government wants to kill them with death panels.
I'm not someone who refuses to listen to reason or mounting evidence against what my beliefs are. If you actually have valid claims, and just reasoning, I will listen, and if you are infact accurate and your evidence overwhelms what I have previously believed, I will consider it, then granted with factual information I would even change beliefs that I formally thought to be true. Not doing what I just explained would be to believe that everything you know as of right now is everything there is to know. If you refuse to listen to anyone, especially reason, then you are set completely in your own ways, and at that point, what does anything matter to you anyway? If you are completely set in your mind, or someone/something you listen to is infallible in your view, then what is the point of thinking anymore, or even living. In this mindset, you are the holder of all knowledge or at least you listen to the holder of all knowledge which is irrifutable, why would simple trivial issues like the screen on an PMP matter to someone which such unfathomable powers? If I know everything with out needing to reference outside sources, I would probably be in some nirvana of bliss and peace, and petty matters like choosing a Zune or iPod wouldn't have any meaning to my grand mind. But, if I was just someone who was more realistic, like the few billion people on this planet, then I might be worried about a singluar source spouting off misinformation, because if someone didn't take the time to check out the facts of this source, they might fall victum to this misinformation, and believe it. But, of course, no one would want to spread misinformation, especially about a competing companies product. I mean what would be the point of that, especially when anyone can just search for the information themselves, and see that there information is twisted and wrong. But like I said, doesn't listen to me, or any one place, search for yourself.
We all agree that write speed, contrast, viewing angles and such are better on AMOLEDS, in some cases much better.
The only areas where there are disputes are in bright light viewing and power draw.
Despite what the OLED Association members might want to say, those are areas in dispute.
It's also expected that efficiency will be much better next year, when there will be NO question of where each technology stands. As far as viewing in sunlight goes, both are poor, but in my experience, LCDs can be better.
The arguments from our side aren't that big. but you guys are coming here and going way overboard in your own assertions.
In fact, if you guys didn't make such a big deal about the article, it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much press as it has. So you are responsible for it getting as widespread as it has.
Think about that.
As for us, most have knocked some of what he said before you ever got here.
Efficiency ratings are in dispute, reflectance ratings are in dispute.
LED backlit LCD Tv's are using them as a means to increase contrast locally, not to cut power consumption.
And all of the claims by the manufacturers are just claims by them. Where are their certified, standardized testing procedures? There aren't any yet.
Don't accuse someone of being stupid, when you are pretty stupid yourself for even coming here in the first place. What are you trying to gain by this? Why bother? We wouldn't go on a Zune forum and try to stir up trouble.
Their assertions aren't proven either.
If you weren't just coming here to troll, and had spent some time here first, you would know that all of us here are in favor of the eventual use of OLEDs. No one here is putting the technology down. It's really jut a question of whether it's ready yet.
What you aren't taking into account is that the manufacturers who are producing these small AMOLEDs produce Tv's and monitors that are LCDs, and don't compete with the small screens sold for phones and such They aren't competing with themselves much at all.
And in addition, the breakdown of the Zune showed that the AMOLED screen used cost more than twice as much as the equivalent LCD screen. If you were manufacturing LCDs and AMOLEDS at twice the price, which would you be pushing?
All that we've been saying here is that maybe this isn't the best time yet. In another year or so, the screens will drop a lot in price, and get almost twice as efficient.
And don't forget that with Apple's much larger buying power, they would pay a lot less for this screen than MS did, so it's less a matter of cost for them.
We've admitted that some of Prince's assertions are over the top. I said that right after his article came out.
perhaps you should have read our early posts, you would have found opinions across the board over it.
Your "concern" over what was said is overblown. You should be stating your defense on a Zune forum.
Melgross please do not turn this into something personal. I made no assertion that anyone was stupid I said making that statement is a stupid thing to say, as in when you think about it it makes no sense.
I am not here to "stir up trouble". I've already told you why I'm here. I'm here because propaganda and libel are being spread about a product because of personal bias. Am I trying to stop it because I have some crazy mission to defend everything Zune? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm here because potential consumers are being LIED TO. What gives this guy the right to decide what someone chooses to buy? It's their money, it's their decision. And if we're talking about people posting in the wrong forums, what the heck is this guy posting a ZUNE libel article on an APPLE forum for? This entire thread should not even be on this website. Like you said it belongs in a Zune forum. But where this is being said is really arbitrary...
I did not come here to troll. I've read many of the comments in this forum, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know what you have been saying (about the efficiency and poor viewing in direct sunlight) because I've read what has been discussed in this forum, contrary to your belief. In fact, I never addressed anything you have said, I've been addressing this article. You are acting extremely defensively. One would have to ask why...
Let me get one thing straight to melgross and to everyone else in this forum: my ultimate goal is education of the consumer so that YOU get the product that YOU want. Yes you. Why? Because it's your money and your satisfaction. If you put concern in quotations because you don't think I am legitimately concerned, then you are just wrong.
For being a moderator melgross, you have pretty well offended me. I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to discuss. I'm here to mull things over. I'm here to rethink things. That is, after all, what forums have always been for. But thank you for holding the door open for my exit. As for your response to BucksterMcgee, I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but the only assertion I'm trying to make is that this article is littered with falsehoods, and I'm glad we can all agree on that.
I must say it's kind of ridiculous for you to assert that Buckster and I are responsible for all the press this article is getting...for having posted in it some 4 or so hours ago. I just registered to AI earlier today. Come on man that's laughable. Quit being so defensive. We're all here to learn.
You think we did that? No I think mindless sheep did that. It's truly terrifying to see people just believe this kind of crap. Imagine if we had a dictator. No one would question anything.
Melgross please do not turn this into something personal. I made no assertion that anyone was stupid I said making that statement is a stupid thing to say, as in when you think about it it makes no sense.
I am not here to "stir up trouble". I've already told you why I'm here. I'm here because propaganda and libel are being spread about a product because of personal bias. Am I trying to stop it because I have some crazy mission to defend everything Zune? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm here because potential consumers are being LIED TO. What gives this guy the right to decide what someone chooses to buy? It's their money, it's their decision. And if we're talking about people posting in the wrong forums, what the heck is this guy posting a ZUNE libel article on an APPLE forum for? This entire thread should not even be on this website. Like you said it belongs in a Zune forum. But where this is being said is really arbitrary...
I did not come here to troll. I've read many of the comments in this forum, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know what you have been saying (about the efficiency and poor viewing in direct sunlight) because I've read what has been discussed in this forum, contrary to your belief. In fact, I never addressed anything you have said, I've been addressing this article. You are acting extremely defensively. One would have to ask why...
Let me get one thing straight to melgross and to everyone else in this forum: my ultimate goal is education of the consumer so that YOU get the product that YOU want. Yes you. Why? Because it's your money and your satisfaction. If you put concern in quotations because you don't think I am legitimately concerned, then you are just wrong.
For being a moderator melgross, you have pretty well offended me. I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to discuss. I'm here to mull things over. I'm here to rethink things. That is, after all, what forums have always been for. But thank you for holding the door open for my exit. As for your response to BucksterMcgee, I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but the only assertion I'm trying to make is that this article is littered with falsehoods, and I'm glad we can all agree on that.
I must say it's kind of ridiculous for you to assert that Buckster and I are responsible for all the press this article is getting...for having posted in it some 4 or so hours ago. I just registered to AI earlier today. Come on man that's laughable. Quit being so defensive. We're all here to learn.
You think we did that? No I think mindless sheep did that. It's truly terrifying to see people just believe this kind of crap. Imagine if we had a dictator. No one would question anything.
Considering the tone of your posts so far, which have been pretty hostile, the "stupid" remark was very personal. If you weren't being personal, you shouldn't have said it. I do think it makes someone stupid for saying it, when considering the hostility of the posts in general.
Please. If you think that people here are big Zune buyers who are going to be dissuaded from buying one because of his article, I can assure you that that isn't the case either way. Considering that the Zune, that is, all the Zune models that have been out the past year didn't break one million in sales, it hardly matters what's being said here. I read some pretty dumb and hostile posting and articles on some PC centric fan sites as well. Remember that this is not a straight reportage site as is MacWorld, PCMag, PCWorld, etc. Admittedly, is is somewhat biased. But, so what? Why should that matter to you?
The likelihood that Zune buyers would have read this article is low. In fact, it's not likely that most iPod buyers ever heard of the article, or even this site, just as most PC buyers have never heard of PCMag or PCWorld.
Even in this post, you are saying silly things. Questioning why I have made certain statements as though I have an ulterior motive is very childish. If that's the best you can do, then don't even bother.
Your motive here is not to "educate the consumer" because you don't know very much. It's to express frustration and anger about a product which you apparently love, and can't bear have criticized. Therefor, like some others who have come here, you are lashing out at those here.
I really don't mind offending you, because you have offended mw first, and the rest of the members as well.
I have to tell you in addition, that on many sites, your hostile post, and the others, would have been removed promptly. We don't do that here.
And cut the accusations of being defensive. The entire reason why you and some other have come here s because YOU are being defensive.
You could just have well have posted your "information" on the other sites that may have referred to this article that actually may have Zune buyers in some numbers.
You've made your case. There's now no longer a reason for you to continue the argument, and I suggest you end it.
I looked at the Zune HD at Best Buy, and the screen was perfectly fine under their bright retail lighting. So the suggestion that its screen is insufficient for indoor use outside "a dark basement" is completely shot down in my opinion. The EXIF was missing from the Engadget pics Mr. Dilger linked to, so saying the lighting looked suspiciously dim doesn't really say much, it was weak support at best anyway. It looks like shooting for the ambient interior light would blow out the screen shots anyway.
I really couldn't play with it much, the thing demanded being linked to a computer before I could look at display settings or anything like that, so they messed up the retail presentation by not having many good sample pictures and videos built-in, at least on the display model.
Considering the tone of your posts so far, which have been pretty hostile, the "stupid" remark was very personal. If you weren't being personal, you shouldn't have said it. I do think it makes someone stupid for saying it, when considering the hostility of the posts in general.
Please. If you think that people here are big Zune buyers who are going to be dissuaded from buying one because of his article, I can assure you that that isn't the case either way. Considering that the Zune, that is, all the Zune models that have been out the past year didn't break one million in sales, it hardly matters what's being said here. I read some pretty dumb and hostile posting and articles on some PC centric fan sites as well. Remember that this is not a straight reportage site as is MacWorld, PCMag, PCWorld, etc. Admittedly, is is somewhat biased. But, so what? Why should that matter to you?
The likelihood that Zune buyers would have read this article is low. In fact, it's not likely that most iPod buyers ever heard of the article, or even this site, just as most PC buyers have never heard of PCMag or PCWorld.
Even in this post, you are saying silly things. Questioning why I have made certain statements as though I have an ulterior motive is very childish. If that's the best you can do, then don't even bother.
Your motive here is not to "educate the consumer" because you don't know very much. It's to express frustration and anger about a product which you apparently love, and can't bear have criticized. Therefor, like some others who have come here, you are lashing out at those here.
I really don't mind offending you, because you have offended mw first, and the rest of the members as well.
I have to tell you in addition, that on many sites, your hostile post, and the others, would have been removed promptly. We don't do that here.
And cut the accusations of being defensive. The entire reason why you and some other have come here s because YOU are being defensive.
You could just have well have posted your "information" on the other sites that may have referred to this article that actually may have Zune buyers in some numbers.
You've made your case. There's now no longer a reason for you to continue the argument, and I suggest you end it.
I'm sorry if my posts seemed hostile. The stupid comment was never intended to offend anyone, and I suppose I shouldn't have said it. I was trying to make a point. Other than that I don't see how my posts were hostile...I am currently being met with exponentially greater hostility. Perhaps I was being emphatic and passionated but that's only because I feel strongly about this issue.
I understand that people here are not Zune buyers. I don't want them to be Zune buyers. I want them to buy iPods if that's what they want. I've already stated that I think Apple makes gorgeous, beautiful, seamless products. They are *excellent*. And I say that to assure you that I'm not here to "persuade" buyers. I'm here to get the facts straight.
I won't comment on marketshare and number of sales because I think those things should be irrelevant (concerning direct relations at least, and for the most part) to the consumer. Everyone knows the iPod is selling excellently, does that mean you should buy it? Everyone knows the Zune is utterly crap in sales, does that mean you should buy it?
I am a stupid, dumb idiot. I am a 19 year old student working for a degree in Computer Engineering so hopefully I'll cure myself of that idiocy as soon as possible. Melgross you've insulted me pretty significantly (never before have I faced this much hostility on the internet) because I said a statement that you made was a stupid thing to say. I sincerely apologize for that. It was uncalled for.
See here that we have digressed. I am here defending my intelligence. But let me stress the difference between me defending myself right now and me defending the Zune, which you say I'm doing. Tell me where I have said anything that is subjective favoritism toward Zune, and I will admit that you are right.
Lastly I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone who I've offended in this forum, including and especially melgross.
I looked at the Zune HD at Best Buy, and the screen was perfectly fine under their bright retail lighting. So the suggestion that its screen is insufficient for indoor use outside "a dark basement" is completely shot down in my opinion. The EXIF was missing from the Engadget pics Mr. Dilger linked to, so saying the lighting looked suspiciously dim doesn't really say much, it was weak support at best anyway. It looks like shooting for the ambient interior light would blow out the screen shots anyway.
I really couldn't play with it much, the thing demanded being linked to a computer before I could look at display settings or anything like that, so they messed up the retail presentation by not having many good sample pictures and videos built-in, at least on the display model.
Yeah I mean it would be pretty ridiculous for Microsoft, or any company at all, to make a handheld device that could only be used in dimly lit rooms. Obviously no one would ever buy it because it would be rendered completely useless in 90% of the average persons usage scenarios.
Tried to play with one at Best Buy as well and it also wouldn't even let me get to the UI. Pretty disappointing.
Just when you thought Microsoft had given up on the Zune as a product and had retreated to referring to it as a nebulous cloud of conceptual features, the company comes out with a new device?
This is the biggest load of BS i have ever seen, I Have one and it is Amazing, it blows the I touch out of the water and apple is just mad because they can't get the graphics qualty of of there Ipod. the only done side to the zune is it doesn't have flash, and it doesn't have 5 billion apps, but the 25 free apps the zune has are amazing.
Umm, I know this is a dead post but it's so much fun to re-read now that MS has killed the Zune. Theories are great but hindsight is 20/20. People vote with their wallets, and the Supreme Court won't save the Zune any more that it saved Al Gore.
Umm, I know this is a dead post but it's so much fun to re-read now that MS has killed the Zune. Theories are great but hindsight is 20/20. People vote with their wallets, and the Supreme Court won't save the Zune any more that it saved Al Gore.
Yeah, kinda fun reading all the Zune and Microsoft fanboys and how they rant on and on about how the Zune HD is going to kill the Ipods. so fun.
This is the biggest load of BS i have ever seen, I Have one and it is Amazing, it blows the I touch out of the water and apple is just mad because they can't get the graphics qualty of of there Ipod. the only done side to the zune is it doesn't have flash, and it doesn't have 5 billion apps, but the 25 free apps the zune has are amazing.
Comments
Like everything else, some of the information you presented is correct, and some is not.
Why would you consider the OLED Association anything more than a shill for the OLED manufacturers who make up its membership?
Are they any less of a shill than AI? Highly doubtful, after all while the OLED Association is totally dependent on the LED manufacturers that pay for the salaries of the people working there, including whomever wrote the unlinked to response, AI has no direct relationship with Apple, or any other company.
The purpose of the Association is to Promote the use of LEDS, and therefor the sales and profits of its members.
They have no ax to grind. Indeed not.
Do you think that these LED manufacturers would want people to know that their products do have some problems? Hmmm. That's a tough one.
Please point out what information is not correct, I'm interested to know.
Yes, OLED manufacturers do make up the members of the committee, many of which also manufacture LCDs. Why aren't they also putting out statistics and touting LCD as the wave of the future? Do you hear Samsung talking about LCD being the newest and best technology? What about Sony? Pioneer?
You are asserting that the OLED Association is making falsifying statements, I ask that you disprove those statements. You are also implying that an Apple rumor site is more accurate of a source concerning OLEDs than the OLED Association (or at least that both sources are inaccurate because they both have an ax to grind). Think about how stupid that is.
At least agree with me on one thing: that this post is a mess of both truth and falsehoods.
Copying and pasting entire articles is bad form. Is there a reason why you couldn't just provide a link to the article and a quick summary?
I provided a link in the post right above his.
I provided a link in the post right above his.
You did the right thing with your first post, but BusterMcgee's post was above your first post, not below.
If someone's going to be too lazy to click a link to read the article, they're not going to read a re-post of the entire article either.
You did the right thing with your first post, but BusterMcgee's post was above your first post, not below.
If someone's going to be too lazy to click a link to read the article, they're not going to read a re-post of the entire article either.
Sorry about posting the entire repost instead of just doing a link, I thought it would have been easier to quote and what not, instead of having to go to an entirely different page. My deepest apologies.
But yeah, it's not even something you have to believe only the OLED Association on, anyone is free to search the spec's of OLED technology and they can see for themselves the inaccuracies in AI's myth section. Contrast ratios, refresh/response rates, viewing angles, these are all simply facts, that beyond numbers, seeing the device in person is all you need to do. And these are not just small differences either, they are on the order of 100x to 1000x times or more in favor of the OLED. That's huge! I think it will be interesting when the iPods and iPhones move to OLED (which they will) and then what will be the fight? I'm sorry, but OLED screens aren't just slightly better, they are hundreds and thousands of times better, don't believe me, go look at one, if you need help finding one, check out the Zune HD, it has one.
Seriously though, no one should ever just listen to one place without question, and I would find it hard to agree that listening entirely to one source is healthy or the best way to get accurate infomation. I really can not imagine living my life just listening to one singlur person, and blindly trusting them, especially when there are countless other sources and even person experiences that say otherwise. I think it reminds me of all the irrational people who public try and bend reality, like the birther movement, those who deny evolution, those who think the moonlanding never happened, or those who believe the government wants to kill them with death panels.
I'm not someone who refuses to listen to reason or mounting evidence against what my beliefs are. If you actually have valid claims, and just reasoning, I will listen, and if you are infact accurate and your evidence overwhelms what I have previously believed, I will consider it, then granted with factual information I would even change beliefs that I formally thought to be true. Not doing what I just explained would be to believe that everything you know as of right now is everything there is to know. If you refuse to listen to anyone, especially reason, then you are set completely in your own ways, and at that point, what does anything matter to you anyway? If you are completely set in your mind, or someone/something you listen to is infallible in your view, then what is the point of thinking anymore, or even living. In this mindset, you are the holder of all knowledge or at least you listen to the holder of all knowledge which is irrifutable, why would simple trivial issues like the screen on an PMP matter to someone which such unfathomable powers? If I know everything with out needing to reference outside sources, I would probably be in some nirvana of bliss and peace, and petty matters like choosing a Zune or iPod wouldn't have any meaning to my grand mind. But, if I was just someone who was more realistic, like the few billion people on this planet, then I might be worried about a singluar source spouting off misinformation, because if someone didn't take the time to check out the facts of this source, they might fall victum to this misinformation, and believe it. But, of course, no one would want to spread misinformation, especially about a competing companies product. I mean what would be the point of that, especially when anyone can just search for the information themselves, and see that there information is twisted and wrong. But like I said, doesn't listen to me, or any one place, search for yourself.
Please point out what information is not correct, I'm interested to know.
Yes, OLED manufacturers do make up the members of the committee, many of which also manufacture LCDs. Why aren't they also putting out statistics and touting LCD as the wave of the future? Do you hear Samsung talking about LCD being the newest and best technology? What about Sony? Pioneer?
You are asserting that the OLED Association is making falsifying statements, I ask that you disprove those statements. You are also implying that an Apple rumor site is more accurate of a source concerning OLEDs than the OLED Association (or at least that both sources are inaccurate because they both have an ax to grind). Think about how stupid that is.
At least agree with me on one thing: that this post is a mess of both truth and falsehoods.
Efficiency ratings are in dispute, reflectance ratings are in dispute.
LED backlit LCD Tv's are using them as a means to increase contrast locally, not to cut power consumption.
And all of the claims by the manufacturers are just claims by them. Where are their certified, standardized testing procedures? There aren't any yet.
Don't accuse someone of being stupid, when you are pretty stupid yourself for even coming here in the first place. What are you trying to gain by this? Why bother? We wouldn't go on a Zune forum and try to stir up trouble.
Their assertions aren't proven either.
If you weren't just coming here to troll, and had spent some time here first, you would know that all of us here are in favor of the eventual use of OLEDs. No one here is putting the technology down. It's really jut a question of whether it's ready yet.
What you aren't taking into account is that the manufacturers who are producing these small AMOLEDs produce Tv's and monitors that are LCDs, and don't compete with the small screens sold for phones and such They aren't competing with themselves much at all.
And in addition, the breakdown of the Zune showed that the AMOLED screen used cost more than twice as much as the equivalent LCD screen. If you were manufacturing LCDs and AMOLEDS at twice the price, which would you be pushing?
All that we've been saying here is that maybe this isn't the best time yet. In another year or so, the screens will drop a lot in price, and get almost twice as efficient.
And don't forget that with Apple's much larger buying power, they would pay a lot less for this screen than MS did, so it's less a matter of cost for them.
We've admitted that some of Prince's assertions are over the top. I said that right after his article came out.
perhaps you should have read our early posts, you would have found opinions across the board over it.
Your "concern" over what was said is overblown. You should be stating your defense on a Zune forum.
This is a good article:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...years-away.ars
So is this one:
http://www.oled-info.com/oleds-direct-sunlight
Sorry about posting the entire repost instead of just doing a link, I thought it would have been easier to quote and what not, instead of having to go to an entirely different page. My deepest apologies.
But yeah, it's not even something you have to believe only the OLED Association on, anyone is free to search the spec's of OLED technology and they can see for themselves the inaccuracies in AI's myth section. Contrast ratios, refresh/response rates, viewing angles, these are all simply facts, that beyond numbers, seeing the device in person is all you need to do. And these are not just small differences either, they are on the order of 100x to 1000x times or more in favor of the OLED. That's huge! I think it will be interesting when the iPods and iPhones move to OLED (which they will) and then what will be the fight? I'm sorry, but OLED screens aren't just slightly better, they are hundreds and thousands of times better, don't believe me, go look at one, if you need help finding one, check out the Zune HD, it has one.
Seriously though, no one should ever just listen to one place without question, and I would find it hard to agree that listening entirely to one source is healthy or the best way to get accurate infomation. I really can not imagine living my life just listening to one singlur person, and blindly trusting them, especially when there are countless other sources and even person experiences that say otherwise. I think it reminds me of all the irrational people who public try and bend reality, like the birther movement, those who deny evolution, those who think the moonlanding never happened, or those who believe the government wants to kill them with death panels.
I'm not someone who refuses to listen to reason or mounting evidence against what my beliefs are. If you actually have valid claims, and just reasoning, I will listen, and if you are infact accurate and your evidence overwhelms what I have previously believed, I will consider it, then granted with factual information I would even change beliefs that I formally thought to be true. Not doing what I just explained would be to believe that everything you know as of right now is everything there is to know. If you refuse to listen to anyone, especially reason, then you are set completely in your own ways, and at that point, what does anything matter to you anyway? If you are completely set in your mind, or someone/something you listen to is infallible in your view, then what is the point of thinking anymore, or even living. In this mindset, you are the holder of all knowledge or at least you listen to the holder of all knowledge which is irrifutable, why would simple trivial issues like the screen on an PMP matter to someone which such unfathomable powers? If I know everything with out needing to reference outside sources, I would probably be in some nirvana of bliss and peace, and petty matters like choosing a Zune or iPod wouldn't have any meaning to my grand mind. But, if I was just someone who was more realistic, like the few billion people on this planet, then I might be worried about a singluar source spouting off misinformation, because if someone didn't take the time to check out the facts of this source, they might fall victum to this misinformation, and believe it. But, of course, no one would want to spread misinformation, especially about a competing companies product. I mean what would be the point of that, especially when anyone can just search for the information themselves, and see that there information is twisted and wrong. But like I said, doesn't listen to me, or any one place, search for yourself.
We all agree that write speed, contrast, viewing angles and such are better on AMOLEDS, in some cases much better.
The only areas where there are disputes are in bright light viewing and power draw.
Despite what the OLED Association members might want to say, those are areas in dispute.
It's also expected that efficiency will be much better next year, when there will be NO question of where each technology stands. As far as viewing in sunlight goes, both are poor, but in my experience, LCDs can be better.
The arguments from our side aren't that big. but you guys are coming here and going way overboard in your own assertions.
In fact, if you guys didn't make such a big deal about the article, it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much press as it has. So you are responsible for it getting as widespread as it has.
Think about that.
As for us, most have knocked some of what he said before you ever got here.
Irony, eh?
Efficiency ratings are in dispute, reflectance ratings are in dispute.
LED backlit LCD Tv's are using them as a means to increase contrast locally, not to cut power consumption.
And all of the claims by the manufacturers are just claims by them. Where are their certified, standardized testing procedures? There aren't any yet.
Don't accuse someone of being stupid, when you are pretty stupid yourself for even coming here in the first place. What are you trying to gain by this? Why bother? We wouldn't go on a Zune forum and try to stir up trouble.
Their assertions aren't proven either.
If you weren't just coming here to troll, and had spent some time here first, you would know that all of us here are in favor of the eventual use of OLEDs. No one here is putting the technology down. It's really jut a question of whether it's ready yet.
What you aren't taking into account is that the manufacturers who are producing these small AMOLEDs produce Tv's and monitors that are LCDs, and don't compete with the small screens sold for phones and such They aren't competing with themselves much at all.
And in addition, the breakdown of the Zune showed that the AMOLED screen used cost more than twice as much as the equivalent LCD screen. If you were manufacturing LCDs and AMOLEDS at twice the price, which would you be pushing?
All that we've been saying here is that maybe this isn't the best time yet. In another year or so, the screens will drop a lot in price, and get almost twice as efficient.
And don't forget that with Apple's much larger buying power, they would pay a lot less for this screen than MS did, so it's less a matter of cost for them.
We've admitted that some of Prince's assertions are over the top. I said that right after his article came out.
perhaps you should have read our early posts, you would have found opinions across the board over it.
Your "concern" over what was said is overblown. You should be stating your defense on a Zune forum.
This is a good article:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...years-away.ars
So is this one:
http://www.oled-info.com/oleds-direct-sunlight
Melgross please do not turn this into something personal. I made no assertion that anyone was stupid I said making that statement is a stupid thing to say, as in when you think about it it makes no sense.
I am not here to "stir up trouble". I've already told you why I'm here. I'm here because propaganda and libel are being spread about a product because of personal bias. Am I trying to stop it because I have some crazy mission to defend everything Zune? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm here because potential consumers are being LIED TO. What gives this guy the right to decide what someone chooses to buy? It's their money, it's their decision. And if we're talking about people posting in the wrong forums, what the heck is this guy posting a ZUNE libel article on an APPLE forum for? This entire thread should not even be on this website. Like you said it belongs in a Zune forum. But where this is being said is really arbitrary...
I did not come here to troll. I've read many of the comments in this forum, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know what you have been saying (about the efficiency and poor viewing in direct sunlight) because I've read what has been discussed in this forum, contrary to your belief. In fact, I never addressed anything you have said, I've been addressing this article. You are acting extremely defensively. One would have to ask why...
Let me get one thing straight to melgross and to everyone else in this forum: my ultimate goal is education of the consumer so that YOU get the product that YOU want. Yes you. Why? Because it's your money and your satisfaction. If you put concern in quotations because you don't think I am legitimately concerned, then you are just wrong.
For being a moderator melgross, you have pretty well offended me. I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to discuss. I'm here to mull things over. I'm here to rethink things. That is, after all, what forums have always been for. But thank you for holding the door open for my exit. As for your response to BucksterMcgee, I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but the only assertion I'm trying to make is that this article is littered with falsehoods, and I'm glad we can all agree on that.
I must say it's kind of ridiculous for you to assert that Buckster and I are responsible for all the press this article is getting...for having posted in it some 4 or so hours ago. I just registered to AI earlier today. Come on man that's laughable. Quit being so defensive. We're all here to learn.
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/0...rom-oled-to-te
gra-five-myths-of-the-zune-hd/
http://my2cents4theday.blogspot.com/...9/five-big-zun
e-hd-myths.html
http://brinsmaid.newsvine.com/_news/...9/15/3270899-f
ive-myths-of-the-zune-hd
http://smokingapples.com/asides/from...to-tegra-five-
myths-of-the-zune-hd/
http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/...read.php?t=243
434
You think we did that? No I think mindless sheep did that. It's truly terrifying to see people just believe this kind of crap. Imagine if we had a dictator. No one would question anything.
Well, I've got some bad news for you: if misinformation offends you to the depths of your soul, you have no business being on the internet.
Or perhaps I have every business being on the internet.
Or perhaps I have every business being on the internet.
clever.
Melgross please do not turn this into something personal. I made no assertion that anyone was stupid I said making that statement is a stupid thing to say, as in when you think about it it makes no sense.
I am not here to "stir up trouble". I've already told you why I'm here. I'm here because propaganda and libel are being spread about a product because of personal bias. Am I trying to stop it because I have some crazy mission to defend everything Zune? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'm here because potential consumers are being LIED TO. What gives this guy the right to decide what someone chooses to buy? It's their money, it's their decision. And if we're talking about people posting in the wrong forums, what the heck is this guy posting a ZUNE libel article on an APPLE forum for? This entire thread should not even be on this website. Like you said it belongs in a Zune forum. But where this is being said is really arbitrary...
I did not come here to troll. I've read many of the comments in this forum, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know what you have been saying (about the efficiency and poor viewing in direct sunlight) because I've read what has been discussed in this forum, contrary to your belief. In fact, I never addressed anything you have said, I've been addressing this article. You are acting extremely defensively. One would have to ask why...
Let me get one thing straight to melgross and to everyone else in this forum: my ultimate goal is education of the consumer so that YOU get the product that YOU want. Yes you. Why? Because it's your money and your satisfaction. If you put concern in quotations because you don't think I am legitimately concerned, then you are just wrong.
For being a moderator melgross, you have pretty well offended me. I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to discuss. I'm here to mull things over. I'm here to rethink things. That is, after all, what forums have always been for. But thank you for holding the door open for my exit. As for your response to BucksterMcgee, I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but the only assertion I'm trying to make is that this article is littered with falsehoods, and I'm glad we can all agree on that.
I must say it's kind of ridiculous for you to assert that Buckster and I are responsible for all the press this article is getting...for having posted in it some 4 or so hours ago. I just registered to AI earlier today. Come on man that's laughable. Quit being so defensive. We're all here to learn.
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/0...rom-oled-to-te
gra-five-myths-of-the-zune-hd/
http://my2cents4theday.blogspot.com/...9/five-big-zun
e-hd-myths.html
http://brinsmaid.newsvine.com/_news/...9/15/3270899-f
ive-myths-of-the-zune-hd
http://smokingapples.com/asides/from...to-tegra-five-
myths-of-the-zune-hd/
http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/...read.php?t=243
434
You think we did that? No I think mindless sheep did that. It's truly terrifying to see people just believe this kind of crap. Imagine if we had a dictator. No one would question anything.
Considering the tone of your posts so far, which have been pretty hostile, the "stupid" remark was very personal. If you weren't being personal, you shouldn't have said it. I do think it makes someone stupid for saying it, when considering the hostility of the posts in general.
Please. If you think that people here are big Zune buyers who are going to be dissuaded from buying one because of his article, I can assure you that that isn't the case either way. Considering that the Zune, that is, all the Zune models that have been out the past year didn't break one million in sales, it hardly matters what's being said here. I read some pretty dumb and hostile posting and articles on some PC centric fan sites as well. Remember that this is not a straight reportage site as is MacWorld, PCMag, PCWorld, etc. Admittedly, is is somewhat biased. But, so what? Why should that matter to you?
The likelihood that Zune buyers would have read this article is low. In fact, it's not likely that most iPod buyers ever heard of the article, or even this site, just as most PC buyers have never heard of PCMag or PCWorld.
Even in this post, you are saying silly things. Questioning why I have made certain statements as though I have an ulterior motive is very childish. If that's the best you can do, then don't even bother.
Your motive here is not to "educate the consumer" because you don't know very much. It's to express frustration and anger about a product which you apparently love, and can't bear have criticized. Therefor, like some others who have come here, you are lashing out at those here.
I really don't mind offending you, because you have offended mw first, and the rest of the members as well.
I have to tell you in addition, that on many sites, your hostile post, and the others, would have been removed promptly. We don't do that here.
And cut the accusations of being defensive. The entire reason why you and some other have come here s because YOU are being defensive.
You could just have well have posted your "information" on the other sites that may have referred to this article that actually may have Zune buyers in some numbers.
You've made your case. There's now no longer a reason for you to continue the argument, and I suggest you end it.
I really couldn't play with it much, the thing demanded being linked to a computer before I could look at display settings or anything like that, so they messed up the retail presentation by not having many good sample pictures and videos built-in, at least on the display model.
Considering the tone of your posts so far, which have been pretty hostile, the "stupid" remark was very personal. If you weren't being personal, you shouldn't have said it. I do think it makes someone stupid for saying it, when considering the hostility of the posts in general.
Please. If you think that people here are big Zune buyers who are going to be dissuaded from buying one because of his article, I can assure you that that isn't the case either way. Considering that the Zune, that is, all the Zune models that have been out the past year didn't break one million in sales, it hardly matters what's being said here. I read some pretty dumb and hostile posting and articles on some PC centric fan sites as well. Remember that this is not a straight reportage site as is MacWorld, PCMag, PCWorld, etc. Admittedly, is is somewhat biased. But, so what? Why should that matter to you?
The likelihood that Zune buyers would have read this article is low. In fact, it's not likely that most iPod buyers ever heard of the article, or even this site, just as most PC buyers have never heard of PCMag or PCWorld.
Even in this post, you are saying silly things. Questioning why I have made certain statements as though I have an ulterior motive is very childish. If that's the best you can do, then don't even bother.
Your motive here is not to "educate the consumer" because you don't know very much. It's to express frustration and anger about a product which you apparently love, and can't bear have criticized. Therefor, like some others who have come here, you are lashing out at those here.
I really don't mind offending you, because you have offended mw first, and the rest of the members as well.
I have to tell you in addition, that on many sites, your hostile post, and the others, would have been removed promptly. We don't do that here.
And cut the accusations of being defensive. The entire reason why you and some other have come here s because YOU are being defensive.
You could just have well have posted your "information" on the other sites that may have referred to this article that actually may have Zune buyers in some numbers.
You've made your case. There's now no longer a reason for you to continue the argument, and I suggest you end it.
I'm sorry if my posts seemed hostile. The stupid comment was never intended to offend anyone, and I suppose I shouldn't have said it. I was trying to make a point. Other than that I don't see how my posts were hostile...I am currently being met with exponentially greater hostility. Perhaps I was being emphatic and passionated but that's only because I feel strongly about this issue.
I understand that people here are not Zune buyers. I don't want them to be Zune buyers. I want them to buy iPods if that's what they want. I've already stated that I think Apple makes gorgeous, beautiful, seamless products. They are *excellent*. And I say that to assure you that I'm not here to "persuade" buyers. I'm here to get the facts straight.
I won't comment on marketshare and number of sales because I think those things should be irrelevant (concerning direct relations at least, and for the most part) to the consumer. Everyone knows the iPod is selling excellently, does that mean you should buy it? Everyone knows the Zune is utterly crap in sales, does that mean you should buy it?
I am a stupid, dumb idiot. I am a 19 year old student working for a degree in Computer Engineering so hopefully I'll cure myself of that idiocy as soon as possible. Melgross you've insulted me pretty significantly (never before have I faced this much hostility on the internet) because I said a statement that you made was a stupid thing to say. I sincerely apologize for that. It was uncalled for.
See here that we have digressed. I am here defending my intelligence. But let me stress the difference between me defending myself right now and me defending the Zune, which you say I'm doing. Tell me where I have said anything that is subjective favoritism toward Zune, and I will admit that you are right.
Lastly I would like to sincerely apologize to everyone who I've offended in this forum, including and especially melgross.
I looked at the Zune HD at Best Buy, and the screen was perfectly fine under their bright retail lighting. So the suggestion that its screen is insufficient for indoor use outside "a dark basement" is completely shot down in my opinion. The EXIF was missing from the Engadget pics Mr. Dilger linked to, so saying the lighting looked suspiciously dim doesn't really say much, it was weak support at best anyway. It looks like shooting for the ambient interior light would blow out the screen shots anyway.
I really couldn't play with it much, the thing demanded being linked to a computer before I could look at display settings or anything like that, so they messed up the retail presentation by not having many good sample pictures and videos built-in, at least on the display model.
Yeah I mean it would be pretty ridiculous for Microsoft, or any company at all, to make a handheld device that could only be used in dimly lit rooms. Obviously no one would ever buy it because it would be rendered completely useless in 90% of the average persons usage scenarios.
Tried to play with one at Best Buy as well and it also wouldn't even let me get to the UI. Pretty disappointing.
Just when you thought Microsoft had given up on the Zune as a product and had retreated to referring to it as a nebulous cloud of conceptual features, the company comes out with a new device?
This is the biggest load of BS i have ever seen, I Have one and it is Amazing, it blows the I touch out of the water and apple is just mad because they can't get the graphics qualty of of there Ipod. the only done side to the zune is it doesn't have flash, and it doesn't have 5 billion apps, but the 25 free apps the zune has are amazing.
Umm, I know this is a dead post but it's so much fun to re-read now that MS has killed the Zune. Theories are great but hindsight is 20/20. People vote with their wallets, and the Supreme Court won't save the Zune any more that it saved Al Gore.
Yeah, kinda fun reading all the Zune and Microsoft fanboys and how they rant on and on about how the Zune HD is going to kill the Ipods. so fun.
This is the biggest load of BS i have ever seen, I Have one and it is Amazing, it blows the I touch out of the water and apple is just mad because they can't get the graphics qualty of of there Ipod. the only done side to the zune is it doesn't have flash, and it doesn't have 5 billion apps, but the 25 free apps the zune has are amazing.
Very funny post. Thanks for making me laugh.