If you don't like HOAs, live where there is not one.
If you don't like the iPhone EULA, buy an Openmoko.
But thinking Apple will change their EULA just because there is a community of hackers who can't really tell you what value is added to Apple by their hacking is a worthless activity.
Do you hold any patents or claim any copyrights as part of your work?
As much as thinking Jailbreakers will stop just because of some thoughtless posts attacking jailbreakers is a worthless activity, I suppose.
I don't personally own any copyrights but have contributed a fair bit to various copyrighted products. So what?
I am employed as a software developer, so I have a vested, personal interest in people not stealing software. That doesn't mean I turn my brain off and think restricting the usage of people's computers is a good idea. Or that every restriction copyright holders put in their EULA are fair or would stand up. Or that I think all jailbreakers are thieves. Or that the jailbreakers are responsible for all of AT&T's problems.
I will stay with my iPhone. But thanks for explaining that there are other phones available. I like my iPhone. That doesn't mean I got stupid and decided it was perfect or that those seeking to use it as they want are somehow evil or in the wrong.
As much as thinking Jailbreakers will stop just because of some thoughtless posts attacking jailbreakers is a worthless activity, I suppose.
I don't personally own any copyrights but have contributed a fair bit to various copyrighted products. So what?
I am employed as a software developer, so I have a vested, personal interest in people not stealing software. That doesn't mean I turn my brain off and think restricting the usage of people's computers is a good idea. Or that every restriction copyright holders put in their EULA are fair or would stand up. Or that I think all jailbreakers are thieves. Or that the jailbreakers are responsible for all of AT&T's problems.
I will stay with my iPhone. But thanks for explaining that there are other phones available. I like my iPhone. That doesn't mean I got stupid and decided it was perfect or that those seeking to use it as they want are somehow evil or in the wrong.
They certainly won't stop because of what I opine, but this is simply a discussion board. There is a small industry of cloaked hackers who honestly believe it is their job to force Apple to change their business model and that there is no point in resting until that happens.
Point is if your business model and livelihood depended on enforcement of your own copyright or patent, you might think very differently about who you allow to break it. You sound like you do work for hire, fixed fee or salary. You're not the patent or copyright holder, no royalties or continuing income. It's very different.
I don't think those things you mentioned either, but I do think that it's Apple's choice what they include in their product. There's a fair amount of legal precedent to back that up.
As for the "turn off your brain" and "stupid" comments, nice try, but an realistic assessment of the role of these hackers is hardly insulting. I don't think the hackers are evil. I don't know if they're in the wrong - they are certainly in violation of a license, their work has to be countered by Apple in order to keep their EULA in force and their work may even be actionable.
So why are these open phone crusaders - like yourself - not buying the ultimate open smartphone - the Openmoko? The next gen is dead in the water, the sales are so bad. You would think that from the sound of it this would be the perfect product - completely open platform, carrier neutral, welcoming of independent, free-thinking developers... and you and I have never seen one in the wild. Why isn't the iPhone hacker community developing for the Openmoko where their efforts would be applauded and welcomed? And why don't you have one?
The betamax case was legal fair use as far as time-shift recording was concerned. Bootleg sales of video are still not allowed - they materially interfere with the studio revenue model. Macrovision was developed to stop consumer VCRs from doing just that. Commercial DVDs also have (since compromised thanks to one unwitting studio) copy defeat. Decoupling a jailbroken phone from the App Store is different from using your VCR to watch today's show tomorrow. So developing a solution that allows 4 million users to circumvent Apple's revenue model for the unit might be construed as materially interfering with Apple's sales. And we might understand how Apple would try and thwart this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
You don't own the software, but you do have Fair-Use rights that Apple cannot license away from you. Those rights allow you to use the software for personal uses that are not commercial in nature where your rights do not materially interfere with Apple's sales. Copyright rights are constitutional in origin and were meant to primarily benefit the public by giving copyright holders limited rights to make money of their creations.
If it weren't otherwise, Sony never would have been allowed to sell the first TV recorder over the objection of the copyright holders.
One could argue that HOA restrictions are similar, I suppose. A couple years ago, a lot of home owners were surprised that the covenants prohibited things like clotheslines anywhere outside of their houses. Many would consider this a reasonable enough restriction. As global warming has become more and more of a concern, the province took action to have those portions of the agreements removed or nullified.
Not all restrictions are good. Not all restriction will or should stand up to a challenge.
i agree with the sentiment, but the buyer should beware (and be aware) of such conditions of purchase. as we indeed are with the iphone
to be honest, whilst i won't jb my iphone, i think the jb-community shows the potential of what the device can do. piracy aside, of course. and jail-breakers shouldn't expect apple to let them break the terms and conditions of sale without putting up some kind of resistance. fun and games, no need for knickers to get in a twist - there will no doubt be a hack for the new firmware before too long.
This wouldn't be necessary if Apple ran an open platform and allowed people to install whatever they liked ON THEIR OWN HARDWARE.
It also wouldn't be necessary if people who wanted an open platform simply bought a device that was officially wide open. If they continue to buy closed platforms and use hacks all they are really doing is communicating the message to Apple's competitors that openness doesn't matter. It's even worse that when they jailbreak the iPhone they are doing so on top of closed source proprietary software. It's completely hypocritical. If you want an open iPhone port Linux to it.
Additionally many iPhone app developers have revealed they are seeing extremely high rates of piracy. If this trend continues Apple will probably become much more aggressive. OTA updates could easily be used to cripple jailbroken phones. Apple hasn't gone there yet but I suspect they will. Who is to blame? Apple, the company selling the closed platform with no claims otherwise, or the Jailbreak community that seems to think patching closed source software makes it open? Or perhaps all the people using jailbreak to pirate commercial applications? None of this stands the "openness" test.
Point is if your business model and livelihood depended on enforcement of your own copyright or patent, you might think very differently about who you allow to break it. You sound like you do work for hire, fixed fee or salary. You're not the patent or copyright holder, no royalties or continuing income. It's very different.
You are right, I am a salaried developer. But regardless, I do fully understand the need for the indy developers to get paid. theft is theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpellino
I don't think those things you mentioned either, but I do think that it's Apple's choice what they include in their product. There's a fair amount of legal precedent to back that up.
As for the "turn off your brain" and "stupid" comments, nice try, but an realistic assessment of the role of these hackers is hardly insulting. I don't think the hackers are evil. I don't know if they're in the wrong - they are certainly in violation of a license, their work has to be countered by Apple in order to keep their EULA in force and their work may even be actionable.
I don't know that some of these EULAs have been fully tested in court. It would be interesting to see how restrictive to fair usage they can become. My turn the brain comments were not directed at you, but those that unthinkingly call all jailbreaker thieves or blame them for all of AT&Ts woes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpellino
So why are these open phone crusaders - like yourself - not buying the ultimate open smartphone - the Openmoko? The next gen is dead in the water, the sales are so bad. You would think that from the sound of it this would be the perfect product - completely open platform, carrier neutral, welcoming of independent, free-thinking developers... and you and I have never seen one in the wild. Why isn't the iPhone hacker community developing for the Openmoko where their efforts would be applauded and welcomed? And why don't you have one?
Um, like I said, because I like my iPhone. It isn't an all or nothing proposition as some seem to think. I can like the iPhone, even think it is the best phone on the market, and still believe there is room for improvement, in the device, the OS and policies. That is also what i meant by turning one's brain off...just because I like the iPhone doesn't mean i got stupid and decided it is a perfect device with a perfect business model and perfect policies governing it. One can have complaints about a product and still love it.
i agree with the sentiment, but the buyer should beware (and be aware) of such conditions of purchase. as we indeed are with the iphone
to be honest, whilst i won't jb my iphone, i think the jb-community shows the potential of what the device can do. piracy aside, of course. and jail-breakers shouldn't expect apple to let them break the terms and conditions of sale without putting up some kind of resistance. fun and games, no need for knickers to get in a twist - there will no doubt be a hack for the new firmware before too long.
Absolutely, be aware of restrictions when you buy...but at the same time, it is not unreasonable to expect that restrictions that are themselves unreasonable might be changed.
My cousin jailbroke his so he could put on a tone loud enough to here when he gets a text message. Apple lets you change ringtones, why not text and e-mail tones?
There is a choice of 6 different tones for text messages. The email tone comes from Mac OS X, and I'm guessing that it's there for consistency (with Mac OS X users).
How wold an open network prevent a subset of users from using too much bandwidth and affecting the quality of service for everyone else?
Warning - analogy to follow -
I suppose you think if some people want to get on the public highways and drive 150 miles an hour they should be allowed to - the roadways and the vehicles are certainly capable of supporting such a speed. Why should the government artificially restrict us all to 65 mph or so? Hmm, could it be that for EVERYONE on the road to travel safely that there must be some set of rules that we all abide by?
I'm not sure if anyone else responded to this, I didn't read through all of the comments yet but your logic is very bad, technically you don't own the roads or highways, if you do own your own road or for example your own property, you can drive at whatever speed you like.
I think what you're looking for is, you should be able to do whatever you like on your phone, since you own it, just like driving on your own property, however when it's using a network, road or highway, that you don't own and that you are sharing with other people, you should respect the rules to protect everyone else for either their safety or personal use.
Which, I agree with both, its your hardware, you paid for it, you should be able to do whatever you like with it, if you're on a network, you should respect those and their rules but can't they do both of these at the same time, is it really that hard to do? But I'm thinking that this reason doesn't have anything to do with it though.
I have already said this before, I have a jailbroken unlocked iphone and I am really fedup with this Apple,s games and I am going to buy an android but not yet as it is not as good or Windows mobile 7 when it is out.I am just waiting a good device with updated android or windows, it might be some time yet. I LOVE APPLE PRODUCTS BUT BECAUSE OF THIS IPHONE GAME I AM READY TO HIT APPLE ON THE FACE WITH MY ELBOW... ARE YOU NOT?
And again Apple is going the same way as they did before years ego against Microsoft. I personally think %42 of iphone owners are jailbroken unlocked on other networks including myself and 7 people I know so Apple is the only one is going to lose. Apple is making really good products but they are trying to run before walking. OHH LOOK AT ME I MADE AN IPHONE AND I GIVE THE ORDERS I AM THE BOSS. sorry but no. and believe me some one is going to make a good os to run on the mobiles and there will be at least one company making a good device. that day will come and I will be the first one and a lot others to follow. it is so sad for someone who bought his first Mac in 2004 and since I convinced 27 people to buy mac and bought 5 myself. By the way I do not use copy software on my iphone because they are cheap so i buy them I like cydia store too.
In the corporate environment, policiies can be enforced that prevents the open-ness and "install anything" that you speak of. Especially when the device also connects to the corporate Exchange server etc.
this is ALL ABOUT ..At&T trying to figure another avenue for revenue....F--k them...I buy tons of apps and use sling here and there for my enjoyment....most of the Jailbreakers are "power users" so to speak ..be willing to BET that those people generate tons of sales by their sheer enthusiasm and probably buy more useless software just to have it...So THANKS to the DevTeam boys and all of us Jailbreakers for pushing the limits of technology and paying for it.
An enterprise can disable the App Store, iTunes on the iPhone, even the camera by installing the appropriate configuration file.
The freely available iPhone Configruation Utility is pretty slick, though I have no idea how it stands up to other such app for other phones. I like that I can make the simple 4 digit pin into a hexadecimal passphrase of my choosing for added security.
Comments
If you don't like HOAs, live where there is not one.
If you don't like the iPhone EULA, buy an Openmoko.
But thinking Apple will change their EULA just because there is a community of hackers who can't really tell you what value is added to Apple by their hacking is a worthless activity.
Do you hold any patents or claim any copyrights as part of your work?
As much as thinking Jailbreakers will stop just because of some thoughtless posts attacking jailbreakers is a worthless activity, I suppose.
I don't personally own any copyrights but have contributed a fair bit to various copyrighted products. So what?
I am employed as a software developer, so I have a vested, personal interest in people not stealing software. That doesn't mean I turn my brain off and think restricting the usage of people's computers is a good idea. Or that every restriction copyright holders put in their EULA are fair or would stand up. Or that I think all jailbreakers are thieves. Or that the jailbreakers are responsible for all of AT&T's problems.
I will stay with my iPhone. But thanks for explaining that there are other phones available. I like my iPhone. That doesn't mean I got stupid and decided it was perfect or that those seeking to use it as they want are somehow evil or in the wrong.
As much as thinking Jailbreakers will stop just because of some thoughtless posts attacking jailbreakers is a worthless activity, I suppose.
I don't personally own any copyrights but have contributed a fair bit to various copyrighted products. So what?
I am employed as a software developer, so I have a vested, personal interest in people not stealing software. That doesn't mean I turn my brain off and think restricting the usage of people's computers is a good idea. Or that every restriction copyright holders put in their EULA are fair or would stand up. Or that I think all jailbreakers are thieves. Or that the jailbreakers are responsible for all of AT&T's problems.
I will stay with my iPhone. But thanks for explaining that there are other phones available. I like my iPhone. That doesn't mean I got stupid and decided it was perfect or that those seeking to use it as they want are somehow evil or in the wrong.
They certainly won't stop because of what I opine, but this is simply a discussion board. There is a small industry of cloaked hackers who honestly believe it is their job to force Apple to change their business model and that there is no point in resting until that happens.
Point is if your business model and livelihood depended on enforcement of your own copyright or patent, you might think very differently about who you allow to break it. You sound like you do work for hire, fixed fee or salary. You're not the patent or copyright holder, no royalties or continuing income. It's very different.
I don't think those things you mentioned either, but I do think that it's Apple's choice what they include in their product. There's a fair amount of legal precedent to back that up.
As for the "turn off your brain" and "stupid" comments, nice try, but an realistic assessment of the role of these hackers is hardly insulting. I don't think the hackers are evil. I don't know if they're in the wrong - they are certainly in violation of a license, their work has to be countered by Apple in order to keep their EULA in force and their work may even be actionable.
So why are these open phone crusaders - like yourself - not buying the ultimate open smartphone - the Openmoko? The next gen is dead in the water, the sales are so bad. You would think that from the sound of it this would be the perfect product - completely open platform, carrier neutral, welcoming of independent, free-thinking developers... and you and I have never seen one in the wild. Why isn't the iPhone hacker community developing for the Openmoko where their efforts would be applauded and welcomed? And why don't you have one?
You don't own the software, but you do have Fair-Use rights that Apple cannot license away from you. Those rights allow you to use the software for personal uses that are not commercial in nature where your rights do not materially interfere with Apple's sales. Copyright rights are constitutional in origin and were meant to primarily benefit the public by giving copyright holders limited rights to make money of their creations.
If it weren't otherwise, Sony never would have been allowed to sell the first TV recorder over the objection of the copyright holders.
One could argue that HOA restrictions are similar, I suppose. A couple years ago, a lot of home owners were surprised that the covenants prohibited things like clotheslines anywhere outside of their houses. Many would consider this a reasonable enough restriction. As global warming has become more and more of a concern, the province took action to have those portions of the agreements removed or nullified.
Not all restrictions are good. Not all restriction will or should stand up to a challenge.
i agree with the sentiment, but the buyer should beware (and be aware) of such conditions of purchase. as we indeed are with the iphone
to be honest, whilst i won't jb my iphone, i think the jb-community shows the potential of what the device can do. piracy aside, of course. and jail-breakers shouldn't expect apple to let them break the terms and conditions of sale without putting up some kind of resistance. fun and games, no need for knickers to get in a twist - there will no doubt be a hack for the new firmware before too long.
This wouldn't be necessary if Apple ran an open platform and allowed people to install whatever they liked ON THEIR OWN HARDWARE.
It also wouldn't be necessary if people who wanted an open platform simply bought a device that was officially wide open. If they continue to buy closed platforms and use hacks all they are really doing is communicating the message to Apple's competitors that openness doesn't matter. It's even worse that when they jailbreak the iPhone they are doing so on top of closed source proprietary software. It's completely hypocritical. If you want an open iPhone port Linux to it.
Additionally many iPhone app developers have revealed they are seeing extremely high rates of piracy. If this trend continues Apple will probably become much more aggressive. OTA updates could easily be used to cripple jailbroken phones. Apple hasn't gone there yet but I suspect they will. Who is to blame? Apple, the company selling the closed platform with no claims otherwise, or the Jailbreak community that seems to think patching closed source software makes it open? Or perhaps all the people using jailbreak to pirate commercial applications? None of this stands the "openness" test.
Point is if your business model and livelihood depended on enforcement of your own copyright or patent, you might think very differently about who you allow to break it. You sound like you do work for hire, fixed fee or salary. You're not the patent or copyright holder, no royalties or continuing income. It's very different.
You are right, I am a salaried developer. But regardless, I do fully understand the need for the indy developers to get paid. theft is theft.
I don't think those things you mentioned either, but I do think that it's Apple's choice what they include in their product. There's a fair amount of legal precedent to back that up.
As for the "turn off your brain" and "stupid" comments, nice try, but an realistic assessment of the role of these hackers is hardly insulting. I don't think the hackers are evil. I don't know if they're in the wrong - they are certainly in violation of a license, their work has to be countered by Apple in order to keep their EULA in force and their work may even be actionable.
I don't know that some of these EULAs have been fully tested in court. It would be interesting to see how restrictive to fair usage they can become. My turn the brain comments were not directed at you, but those that unthinkingly call all jailbreaker thieves or blame them for all of AT&Ts woes.
So why are these open phone crusaders - like yourself - not buying the ultimate open smartphone - the Openmoko? The next gen is dead in the water, the sales are so bad. You would think that from the sound of it this would be the perfect product - completely open platform, carrier neutral, welcoming of independent, free-thinking developers... and you and I have never seen one in the wild. Why isn't the iPhone hacker community developing for the Openmoko where their efforts would be applauded and welcomed? And why don't you have one?
Um, like I said, because I like my iPhone. It isn't an all or nothing proposition as some seem to think. I can like the iPhone, even think it is the best phone on the market, and still believe there is room for improvement, in the device, the OS and policies. That is also what i meant by turning one's brain off...just because I like the iPhone doesn't mean i got stupid and decided it is a perfect device with a perfect business model and perfect policies governing it. One can have complaints about a product and still love it.
i agree with the sentiment, but the buyer should beware (and be aware) of such conditions of purchase. as we indeed are with the iphone
to be honest, whilst i won't jb my iphone, i think the jb-community shows the potential of what the device can do. piracy aside, of course. and jail-breakers shouldn't expect apple to let them break the terms and conditions of sale without putting up some kind of resistance. fun and games, no need for knickers to get in a twist - there will no doubt be a hack for the new firmware before too long.
Absolutely, be aware of restrictions when you buy...but at the same time, it is not unreasonable to expect that restrictions that are themselves unreasonable might be changed.
My cousin jailbroke his so he could put on a tone loud enough to here when he gets a text message. Apple lets you change ringtones, why not text and e-mail tones?
There is a choice of 6 different tones for text messages. The email tone comes from Mac OS X, and I'm guessing that it's there for consistency (with Mac OS X users).
How wold an open network prevent a subset of users from using too much bandwidth and affecting the quality of service for everyone else?
Warning - analogy to follow -
I suppose you think if some people want to get on the public highways and drive 150 miles an hour they should be allowed to - the roadways and the vehicles are certainly capable of supporting such a speed. Why should the government artificially restrict us all to 65 mph or so? Hmm, could it be that for EVERYONE on the road to travel safely that there must be some set of rules that we all abide by?
I'm not sure if anyone else responded to this, I didn't read through all of the comments yet but your logic is very bad, technically you don't own the roads or highways, if you do own your own road or for example your own property, you can drive at whatever speed you like.
I think what you're looking for is, you should be able to do whatever you like on your phone, since you own it, just like driving on your own property, however when it's using a network, road or highway, that you don't own and that you are sharing with other people, you should respect the rules to protect everyone else for either their safety or personal use.
Which, I agree with both, its your hardware, you paid for it, you should be able to do whatever you like with it, if you're on a network, you should respect those and their rules but can't they do both of these at the same time, is it really that hard to do? But I'm thinking that this reason doesn't have anything to do with it though.
In the corporate environment, policiies can be enforced that prevents the open-ness and "install anything" that you speak of. Especially when the device also connects to the corporate Exchange server etc.
This is true for the iPhone too.
Read the iPhone Enterprise Deployment Guide:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/...ment_Guide.pdf
Appendix B goes into detail.
An enterprise can disable the App Store, iTunes on the iPhone, even the camera by installing the appropriate configuration file.
This is true for the iPhone too.
Read the iPhone Enterprise Deployment Guide:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/...ment_Guide.pdf
Appendix B goes into detail.
An enterprise can disable the App Store, iTunes on the iPhone, even the camera by installing the appropriate configuration file.
The freely available iPhone Configruation Utility is pretty slick, though I have no idea how it stands up to other such app for other phones. I like that I can make the simple 4 digit pin into a hexadecimal passphrase of my choosing for added security.