<[QUOTE=RoboNerd;1505960]Well let's see... does it have the appearance of a blatant copy of the Apple store paradigm? You bet.
Did Apple come up with the idea of a botique store for electronics? Nope.>
No one quibbles with whether others have opened boutique electronic stores first, but there is a serious question of copying a competitors trade dress.
Not sure if MS will follow through with their threat to put these right next to existing Apple stores but if they do and if they look like this, you can be sure of a lawsuit by Apple. Nothing prevents you from opening up a store right next to a competitor (unless there are clauses like that in your lease agreement), but you aren't allowed to attempt to 'confuse' a shopper by copying the materials, design, arrangement, etc. ... look up trade dress and you see what I mean.
Extends from packaging to store design to, and I quote, 'the method of displaying wine bottles in a wine shop'. Similar protection as for trademarks ...
Apple is so beneath MS that that I’m sure this store idea was a coincidence, just like aspects of Win7 looking like OS X and how the Zune concept was a coincidence. I’m sure Extremeskater and the other troll boy believe that.
You mean the way the new MacBooks look exactly like the MSI Wind? (COINCIDENCE?)
I wonder if their average revenue per store will approach that of an Apple store? It will be interesting to watch.
Beyond a few copies of Windows I'm not sure what they will sell en masse?
I agree. It will be interesting to see if they can be profitable. Genius Bar visits are often warranty issues. I've had a graphics card and hard drive replaced in my 24" iMac over the last almost 3 years (Yeah AppleCare!), so they are NOT a profit driver. If they have any benefit, it will be preventing people from trashing their crash-prone, virus ridden PCs and going to the Apple Store.
Apple entered the retails space with minimal retail competitors, although they did cannibalize a few small independent retailers and catalog/online merchants. And actually, the growth in iPod and Mac sales has increase 3rd party retailers, Best Buy most notably. But Windows has a plethora of outlets that they'll be competing against. And it's not like Windows is a big mystery to consumers, like the millions who never even tried a Mac before walking into an Apple store - often because of the iPod, and now iPhone, halo effect.
Then you've got hardware, where there is some new stuff, netbooks, touch screen PCs, but competition will keep those prices competitive (i.e. low margin). Gotta admit, Apple basically price fixes their hardware (Mac user since my Mac Plus in 1987 so this is experience talking, not trashing).
So MS has no halo effect, nothing new beyond Windows 7 (they're not making hardware other than the Zune, some keyboards and mice) and immense retail competition.
I say good luck Microsoft. I think you've created a big hole in which to pour more marketing dollars. See you next quarter for the earnings reports!
I run a computer business in Los Angeles and I'd say about 95 percent of computers that come through my door are PC's running Windows, and they are laden with SPAM, adware, and spyware. Just the other day for 'stuff and giggles' I installed Windows on one of my partitions... didn't install an anti-virus program because I didn't plan on using the Windows side of my Mac all that often... two days later I open Internet Explorer and within a few hours of use I have around 30 popups randomly opening every few minutes. To say viruses aren't an issue for any computer is silly.
I work for one of the largest computer companies in the world. Its hard to even take you serious saying that IE has 30 popups within a few hours. What are you using IE 5.0?
Apple used TN panels on their 20inch iMacs. Most vendors now offer backlit keyboards.
They offer backlit keybaords in their PREMIUM lines, not all their machines. Note that from the other PC vendors you can buy a more expensive machine that may actually have less performance than a cheaper one because the PREMIUM machine is thinner, lighter and has other PREMIUM features that increase the price.
Quote:
Unless you are a tree hugger no one cares if their PC is environmentally friendly or not. All LED does is make the display thinner which most could care less about thin. That is an Apple obession.
I think it?s Dell that offers the thinnest MBA competitor now and I also think it?s Dell that has a line of PCs that is even greener than Apple?s, the difference being that Apple is EPEAT Gold across the board or nearly across the board, while other vendors only do it on their limited PREMIUM products, not the bulk of their sales which already make little profit so it would be pointless to add it.
Quote:
This is what I consider Premium. I run with a 1200 watt power supply. A EVGA x58 3way sli motherboard. Intel Core i7 extreme edition 3.33ghz overclocked to 4.3ghz, 8gb corsair ddr 3, 1333 ram. Dual 285 nividia cards. Raid 5 with four hitachi drives. Oh and my keyboard is backlit thank god. Dual LG (Matte) 24" monitors.
[?]
In no way am I saying that Apple doesn't have good products I own many of them myself and have for years but we all have our own opinion on what we consider Premium. Thats the only point I was trying to make.
I thought you had stated that Premium doesn?t actually exist. I?m not willing to look it up, but if that is the case, then my bad.
Yeah, I guess all the personal and corporate PC users like paying money to McAfee, Norton, and other AV software vendors because they enjoy paying for things that do nothing.
Every walk into an Apple store and noticed there is Anti virus software on the shelf? I have, doesn't mean you actually need it.
I guess if you are using something like Limwire downloading porn then your changes of getting a virus are high. So stop doing it.
Microsoft's attempt at copying the Apple Retail Stores will be about as successful as their Zune was at copying the iPod. It will be a sad failure that Microsoft never admits to. They will keep the stores open, even at a loss, because they can afford to lose a little $$$ here or there more easily than they can afford the perception of failure. This tendency will ultimately be their undoing.
Thompson
Well you've made an excellent point, and I bolded what I feel is the important.
That attitude of "we can afford to lose money" is what seems to be driving MS here. It's pure complacency. Part of that comes from the sheer laziness that MS' universal licensing scheme has afforded them. Eventually that "we can afford to lose" attitude will catch up with them and those billions in profit will gradually slide every year, as they are now. MS is in a very precarious position, and its deep pockets won't help them a whole lot when they're not producing the kinds of amazing producgs that others, with half of MS' resources *are* producing. MS has been in a steady downward slide for years now.
Apple on the other hand, is forced to treat every day as Game Day, for the simple reason that they've limited themselves (deliberately) to a particular segment of the market. This "limitation" actually works in their favour. It keeps them hungry. The Premium end is the Crown Jewel of retail and Apple has no choice but to hang on to it. This ensures maximum effort quarter after quarter, because the segment Apple is in currently is really all they have. For Apple, every day is a day on the battlefield. And it shows.
Okay lets for a min say that are copying. Why do we care? If we like Apple products then we should simply use them. If like some of what MS does then we should use them. I don't see any benefit in bitching everytime MS does something. Its pathetic.
I think you might have some good points but the way you make them might detract from their validity.
In the first place, everyone enjoys a certain amount of validation - Apple fans love to point out when MicroSoft or others emulate Apple. The more blatant the copying - the louder the outcry, because they perceive hypocrisy in people like Balmer who states one position (i.e., software piracy is bad), yet seems to have little qualm about copying the things that Apple seems to have done right.
Windows fans - on the other hand - can rightly point out that the sheer size of MS market share - despite how one might characterize it or attempt to detract from it, is certainly impressive. I for one have a certain amount of MS stock that I have bought or inherited over the years and I sincerely hope that MicroSoft does everything it can to maximize its profit position.
It does seem like there is a recent shift in the balance that has been acknowledged for years - where the upstart Apple has certain fanboys that like to flout their ownership as proof of a relative superiority over those who have not gone Apple - while MS was always content to be raking in the dough despite being disdained in Apple fanboy eyes.
Now there is a kind of collective "I told you so" on the part of Apple fanboys which seems tilting in their direction with the recent wins in their columns through the developing iTune and iPhone dynasties. And, might I say it, nobody really likes to be told "I told you so" in that fashion.
Of course MS is not scared, but I attend the shareholder meetings and I can tell you that many of the small investors like me sometimes wonder if Mr. Ballmer has the correct vision. I sometimes fantisize about a really intelligent and rational appearing person (like Apple's Cook) taking the helm at MS and seeing what he could do to transform the company.
Say what anybody will, increased competition will only make it better for all concerned because MS and Apple really need each other to compete against. We should all really be secretly proud when we see Apple innovate and see MS and others smart enough to emulate what they do well.
You are correct when you say that bashing is pathetic - but that pathos is a two way street my friend. Apple is finding their way and although I can kick myself for never having converted any of my assets from MS into AAPL, I look forward to the day when my patience in MS will start to pay off again, as will others who have made their investments in Google, etc..
It will not only be better for those like me heavily vested in MS - it will be better for Apple as well because everyone will hopefully gain from the competition. I for one hope MS continues to do everything within its power to maximize their profitability - and if that means opening stores for image development despite a clear sense of public awareness of what exactly it is they will sell, I say do it!
At least they are not sitting around doing nothing - and I can tell you that not everything you have been lead to believe that comes out of Redmond is an empty promise or vaporware. It will just take someone with the correct cajones to allow the correct factions within MS to start emerging and taking center stage.
They offer backlit keybaords in their PREMIUM lines, not all their machines. Note that from the other PC vendors you can buy a more expensive machine that may actually have less performance than a cheaper one because the PREMIUM machine is thinner, lighter and has other PREMIUM features that increase the price.
I think it?s Dell that offers the thinnest MBA competitor now and I also think it?s Dell that has a line of PCs that is even greener than Apple?s, the difference being that Apple is EPEAT Gold across the board or nearly across the board, while other vendors only do it on their limited PREMIUM products, not the bulk of their sales which already make little profit so it would be pointless to add it.
I thought you had stated that Premium doesn?t actually exist. I?m not willing to look it up, but if that is the case, then my bad.
Oh I see so Apple is only half premium. My bad. You guys need to make up your mind. So the person that spends far too much on a BTO macbook and pays like 1500.00 with Applecare shouldn't get a premium product.
What I have said if you go back and read is premium is not a fact its a matter of opinion. What you might consider a premium option I might not and the other way around. You might be willing to pay for something that I might not be willing to pay for based on the difference in our needs. That seems very logical to me rather then saying one company is premium and the other is not.
Its would be hard to say that AppleTV, Apple mini and the macbook are premium products compared to other options on the market. People shouldn't have to spend 2500,00 on a macbook pro to have a premium product. You would think 1500.00 would get you something a bit better then a low grade notebook wrapped in plastic. Yet again just my opinion.
I'm more intrigued by the insanely huge American flags in one of the shots. Is MS on some sort of super jingoistic GO-USA! charge or something? How odd.
I'm more intrigued by the insanely huge American flags in one of the shots. Is MS on some sort of super jingoistic GO-USA! charge or something? How odd.
well you can't blame them for trying, so they're trying with every possible thing they think will stick
they will also be hosting birthday parties...cannot wait to see pictures of those...
I think you might have some good points but the way you make them detract from their validity.
In the first place, everyone enjoys a certain amount of validation - Apple fans love to point out when MicroSoft or others emulate them. The more blatant the copying - the louder the outcry, because they perceive hypocrisy in people like Balmer who states one position (i.e., software piracy is bad), yet seems to have little qualm about copying the things that Apple seems to have done right.
Windows fans - on the other hand - can rightly point out that the sheer size of the market share - despite how one might characterize it or attempt to detract from it, is certainly impressive. I for one have a certain amount of MS stock that I have bought or inherited over they years and I sincerely hope that MicroSoft does everything it can to maximize its profit position.
It does seem like there is a shift in the balance that has been acknowledged for years - where the upstart Apple has certain fanboys that like to flout their ownership as proof of a relative supperiority over those who have not gone Apple - while MS was always content to be raking in the dough despite being disdained in Apple fanboy eyes.
Now there is a kind of collective "I told you so" on the part of Apple fanboys which seems tilting in their direction with the recent wins in their columns through the iTune and iPhone dynasties. And, might I say it, nobody really likes to be told in that fashion.
Of course MS is not scared, but I attend the shareholder meetings and I can tell you that many of the small investors sometimes wonder if Mr. Ballmer has the correct vision. I sometimes fantisize about a really intelligent rational appearing person (;ike Cook) taking the helm at MS and seeing what that would do to transform the company.
Say what anybody will, increased competition will only make it better for all concerned because MS and Apple really need each other to compete against. We should all really be secretly proud when we see Apple innovate and see MS smart enough to emulate what they do well.
You are correct when you say that bashing is pathetic - but that pathos is a two way street my friend. Appple is finding their way and although I can kick myself for never having converted all my assets from MS into AAPL, I look forward to the day when my patience in MS will start to pay off again, as will others investment is Google, etc..
It will not only be better for those like me heavily vested in MS - it will be better for Apple as well because everyone will hopefully gain from the experience. I for one hope MS continues to do everything within its power to maximize their profitability - and if that means opening stores for image development despite a clear sense of public awareness of what exactly it is they will sell, I say do it!
At least they are not sitting around doing nothing - and I can tell you that not everything you have been lead to believe is an empty promise or vaporware from Redmond.
You made alot of really good point. I also feel that Ballmer has really hurt MS instead of helped them. However just becasue someone is the face of a company doesn't mean they make every decision. I think it would be foolish to think Bill Gates doesn't have a hand in what going on along with many other people we never hear about. Same goes with Apple some think SJ is sitting around making ever decision for Apple clearly he has people that he trusts that also play a hand in how the company is run.
I have never said Apple is not a solid company, as are Google and MS. They all add value to the game and they all provide a product that we can use or choose not too.
Apple used TN panels on their 20inch iMacs. Most vendors now offer backlit keyboards. Is milled AL better, maybe but I have never had a problem with any of my Sony or HP laptops. Most PC home users do not use AIO's because most PC users are not forced to pick between an AIO and a few notebook models. We have options.
Unless you are a tree hugger no one cares if their PC is environmentally friendly or not. All LED does is make the display thinner which most could care less about thin. That is an Apple obession.
This is what I consider Premium. I run with a 1200 watt power supply. A EVGA x58 3way sli motherboard. Intel Core i7 extreme edition 3.33ghz overclocked to 4.3ghz, 8gb corsair ddr 3, 1333 ram. Dual 285 nividia cards. Raid 5 with four hitachi drives. Oh and my keyboard is backlit thank god. Dual LG (Matte) 24" monitors.
My system can do anything I ask it to do and it can boot Vista x64 in 25sec.
Not every windows user has an 800.00 gateway computer or a netbook.
In no way am I saying that Apple doesn't have good products I own many of them myself and have for years but we all have our own opinion on what we consider Premium. Thats the only point I was trying to make.
You're making our point for us.
There are 3 categories of computers.
Low-end, low margin.
High end, high margin.
Custom.
In the car world, that breaks down into Ford, Mercedes and Nascar.
You know quite well where MS, Apple, and you fall into those categories.
Hot-rodded PCs are irrelevant to the argument.
Apple can buy Dell with pocket change, and will probably pass MS in market capitalization by end of 2010. MS will continue to bottom feed and follow.
What I have said if you go back and read is premium is not a fact its a matter of opinion. What you might consider a premium option I might not and the other way around. You might be willing to pay for something that I might not be willing to pay for based on the difference in our needs.
If your stance is that premium is an opinion, then why does it sound like you are saying that everyone who thinks Apple makes premium products is wrong?
Why are Microsoft trying to be like Apple? I don't see the point in these stores.
They can do quite well by being for the 'every-man' as opposed to trying to snatch the premium end of the market. Windows does the job, and that's good enough for most and there's certainly money to be made in that segment. Apple is the best at what they do, Microsoft shouldn't bother wasting their cash on competing on behalf of vendors since they'll just lose anyway. If they spent their resources on making Windows better, there wouldn't even be an argument for switching - and the Apple Tax would be more than just a myth.
In the car world, that breaks down into Ford, Mercedes and Nascar.
You know quite well where MS, Apple, and you fall into those categories.
Hot-rodded PCs are irrelevant to the argument.
Apple can buy Dell with pocket change, and will probably pass MS in market capitalization by end of 2010. MS will continue to bottom feed and follow.
You're blending everything together. Microsoft would care less if Apple brought Dell. What does that have to do with anything. Also is MS bottom feeling when many Apple users install Windows via bootcamp? Are they also bottom feeding when 85% of all housholds with Apple computers also have Windows systems? Apple will never pass MS on anything. Even SJ had to break down and admit that a long time ago.
Apples shares are based on Steve Jobs staying alive.
Your answer on Premium is total BS because you can't come up with a real answer because the fact is Apple doesn't make anything premium compared to anyone else.
I can't decide if your ignorant of marketing and business practices or purposefully being obtuse.
Lets look at this from a different angle. Compare a Toyota Corolla to a Bmw 1 series. The Toyota and Bmw both have internal combustion engines, tires etc. and probably share some components or at least components from the same manufacturers and parts vendors. The Toyota's quality in regards to durability and reliability and defects per car will most likely be superior to the Bmw. For many reasons though the Bmw is considered the Premium car and is priced according to what Bmw thinks the market will bear. To me the price of a 1 series is inflated and does not represent a good value for what you get. So does that mean it is not a "Premium" product or brand? No, because the market as a whole considers it a premium product weather or not they purchase or even cross shop that brand. Same point comparing Apple and Microsoft +Hardware Vendor. Many people who may never even look at an Apple product have a notion that it is a "premium" product. That is how marketing and market forces work. If there was not some sort of premium, real or percieved, quality Apple would not be able to charge a premium price. At least not for long.
Oh right- I forgot no retail store has ever posted large pictures of their products on their walls before. Does Apple own a copyright on that? GAP anyone?
You clearly have never been in an Apple Store. This thing is a photocopy. The exact same tables, the floors even the video walls from the original design of the first store. down to the including of and location of the Guru bars. Everyone borrows but they blatantly steal then doesn't even try to hide it then will try to make like they were first. If they had a snowball chance of being successful with this they will change in about 5 years to saying Apple copied the retail idea from them and their partners and their blind legions with believe them, even though the were there for the truth.
If your stance is that premium is an opinion, then why does it sound like you are saying that everyone who thinks Apple makes premium products is wrong?
If that how it came across that wasn't my intent. I own Apple products and I like them alot. There are certain Apple products that I would never stop buying. What got me into this thread is the nonsense that everytime someone else does something they are either scared or copying Apple. Of course things when off topic from there as they tend to do on most forums.
Everytime someone else does something, Google, Verizon, RIM, Walmart, Amazon, MS, Dell, Hp you see a segment of this forum flip out about how they are scared or they are copying or how they are going to fail and I just have to wonder where the hell that comes from and where the anger comes from to see competition. Some of the people that post when you ask them if they have even used Vista don't reply back because you know damn well they have never even used the OS.
Its the elite attitude that makes people think every Apple user is an a$$hole. There was a good article on this a while back about Apples biggest problem is not Apple but its users.
I know this will piss people off but fair amount of us know its true.
Comments
Did Apple come up with the idea of a botique store for electronics? Nope.>
No one quibbles with whether others have opened boutique electronic stores first, but there is a serious question of copying a competitors trade dress.
Not sure if MS will follow through with their threat to put these right next to existing Apple stores but if they do and if they look like this, you can be sure of a lawsuit by Apple. Nothing prevents you from opening up a store right next to a competitor (unless there are clauses like that in your lease agreement), but you aren't allowed to attempt to 'confuse' a shopper by copying the materials, design, arrangement, etc. ... look up trade dress and you see what I mean.
Extends from packaging to store design to, and I quote, 'the method of displaying wine bottles in a wine shop'. Similar protection as for trademarks ...
Apple is so beneath MS that that I’m sure this store idea was a coincidence, just like aspects of Win7 looking like OS X and how the Zune concept was a coincidence.
You mean the way the new MacBooks look exactly like the MSI Wind? (COINCIDENCE?)
http://www.msimobile.com/level2_productlist.aspx?id=3
How can that be???
I wonder if their average revenue per store will approach that of an Apple store? It will be interesting to watch.
Beyond a few copies of Windows I'm not sure what they will sell en masse?
I agree. It will be interesting to see if they can be profitable. Genius Bar visits are often warranty issues. I've had a graphics card and hard drive replaced in my 24" iMac over the last almost 3 years (Yeah AppleCare!), so they are NOT a profit driver. If they have any benefit, it will be preventing people from trashing their crash-prone, virus ridden PCs and going to the Apple Store.
Apple entered the retails space with minimal retail competitors, although they did cannibalize a few small independent retailers and catalog/online merchants. And actually, the growth in iPod and Mac sales has increase 3rd party retailers, Best Buy most notably. But Windows has a plethora of outlets that they'll be competing against. And it's not like Windows is a big mystery to consumers, like the millions who never even tried a Mac before walking into an Apple store - often because of the iPod, and now iPhone, halo effect.
Then you've got hardware, where there is some new stuff, netbooks, touch screen PCs, but competition will keep those prices competitive (i.e. low margin). Gotta admit, Apple basically price fixes their hardware (Mac user since my Mac Plus in 1987 so this is experience talking, not trashing).
So MS has no halo effect, nothing new beyond Windows 7 (they're not making hardware other than the Zune, some keyboards and mice) and immense retail competition.
I say good luck Microsoft. I think you've created a big hole in which to pour more marketing dollars. See you next quarter for the earnings reports!
I run a computer business in Los Angeles and I'd say about 95 percent of computers that come through my door are PC's running Windows, and they are laden with SPAM, adware, and spyware. Just the other day for 'stuff and giggles' I installed Windows on one of my partitions... didn't install an anti-virus program because I didn't plan on using the Windows side of my Mac all that often... two days later I open Internet Explorer and within a few hours of use I have around 30 popups randomly opening every few minutes. To say viruses aren't an issue for any computer is silly.
I work for one of the largest computer companies in the world. Its hard to even take you serious saying that IE has 30 popups within a few hours. What are you using IE 5.0?
I work for one of the largest computer companies in the world.
Let me guess! Microsoft?!
Apple used TN panels on their 20inch iMacs. Most vendors now offer backlit keyboards.
They offer backlit keybaords in their PREMIUM lines, not all their machines. Note that from the other PC vendors you can buy a more expensive machine that may actually have less performance than a cheaper one because the PREMIUM machine is thinner, lighter and has other PREMIUM features that increase the price.
Unless you are a tree hugger no one cares if their PC is environmentally friendly or not. All LED does is make the display thinner which most could care less about thin. That is an Apple obession.
I think it?s Dell that offers the thinnest MBA competitor now and I also think it?s Dell that has a line of PCs that is even greener than Apple?s, the difference being that Apple is EPEAT Gold across the board or nearly across the board, while other vendors only do it on their limited PREMIUM products, not the bulk of their sales which already make little profit so it would be pointless to add it.
This is what I consider Premium. I run with a 1200 watt power supply. A EVGA x58 3way sli motherboard. Intel Core i7 extreme edition 3.33ghz overclocked to 4.3ghz, 8gb corsair ddr 3, 1333 ram. Dual 285 nividia cards. Raid 5 with four hitachi drives. Oh and my keyboard is backlit thank god. Dual LG (Matte) 24" monitors.
[?]
In no way am I saying that Apple doesn't have good products I own many of them myself and have for years but we all have our own opinion on what we consider Premium. Thats the only point I was trying to make.
I thought you had stated that Premium doesn?t actually exist. I?m not willing to look it up, but if that is the case, then my bad.
Yeah, I guess all the personal and corporate PC users like paying money to McAfee, Norton, and other AV software vendors because they enjoy paying for things that do nothing.
Every walk into an Apple store and noticed there is Anti virus software on the shelf? I have, doesn't mean you actually need it.
I guess if you are using something like Limwire downloading porn then your changes of getting a virus are high. So stop doing it.
Quadra,
Microsoft's attempt at copying the Apple Retail Stores will be about as successful as their Zune was at copying the iPod. It will be a sad failure that Microsoft never admits to. They will keep the stores open, even at a loss, because they can afford to lose a little $$$ here or there more easily than they can afford the perception of failure. This tendency will ultimately be their undoing.
Thompson
Well you've made an excellent point, and I bolded what I feel is the important.
That attitude of "we can afford to lose money" is what seems to be driving MS here. It's pure complacency. Part of that comes from the sheer laziness that MS' universal licensing scheme has afforded them. Eventually that "we can afford to lose" attitude will catch up with them and those billions in profit will gradually slide every year, as they are now. MS is in a very precarious position, and its deep pockets won't help them a whole lot when they're not producing the kinds of amazing producgs that others, with half of MS' resources *are* producing. MS has been in a steady downward slide for years now.
Apple on the other hand, is forced to treat every day as Game Day, for the simple reason that they've limited themselves (deliberately) to a particular segment of the market. This "limitation" actually works in their favour. It keeps them hungry. The Premium end is the Crown Jewel of retail and Apple has no choice but to hang on to it. This ensures maximum effort quarter after quarter, because the segment Apple is in currently is really all they have. For Apple, every day is a day on the battlefield. And it shows.
Okay lets for a min say that are copying. Why do we care? If we like Apple products then we should simply use them. If like some of what MS does then we should use them. I don't see any benefit in bitching everytime MS does something. Its pathetic.
I think you might have some good points but the way you make them might detract from their validity.
In the first place, everyone enjoys a certain amount of validation - Apple fans love to point out when MicroSoft or others emulate Apple. The more blatant the copying - the louder the outcry, because they perceive hypocrisy in people like Balmer who states one position (i.e., software piracy is bad), yet seems to have little qualm about copying the things that Apple seems to have done right.
Windows fans - on the other hand - can rightly point out that the sheer size of MS market share - despite how one might characterize it or attempt to detract from it, is certainly impressive. I for one have a certain amount of MS stock that I have bought or inherited over the years and I sincerely hope that MicroSoft does everything it can to maximize its profit position.
It does seem like there is a recent shift in the balance that has been acknowledged for years - where the upstart Apple has certain fanboys that like to flout their ownership as proof of a relative superiority over those who have not gone Apple - while MS was always content to be raking in the dough despite being disdained in Apple fanboy eyes.
Now there is a kind of collective "I told you so" on the part of Apple fanboys which seems tilting in their direction with the recent wins in their columns through the developing iTune and iPhone dynasties. And, might I say it, nobody really likes to be told "I told you so" in that fashion.
Of course MS is not scared, but I attend the shareholder meetings and I can tell you that many of the small investors like me sometimes wonder if Mr. Ballmer has the correct vision. I sometimes fantisize about a really intelligent and rational appearing person (like Apple's Cook) taking the helm at MS and seeing what he could do to transform the company.
Say what anybody will, increased competition will only make it better for all concerned because MS and Apple really need each other to compete against. We should all really be secretly proud when we see Apple innovate and see MS and others smart enough to emulate what they do well.
You are correct when you say that bashing is pathetic - but that pathos is a two way street my friend. Apple is finding their way and although I can kick myself for never having converted any of my assets from MS into AAPL, I look forward to the day when my patience in MS will start to pay off again, as will others who have made their investments in Google, etc..
It will not only be better for those like me heavily vested in MS - it will be better for Apple as well because everyone will hopefully gain from the competition. I for one hope MS continues to do everything within its power to maximize their profitability - and if that means opening stores for image development despite a clear sense of public awareness of what exactly it is they will sell, I say do it!
At least they are not sitting around doing nothing - and I can tell you that not everything you have been lead to believe that comes out of Redmond is an empty promise or vaporware. It will just take someone with the correct cajones to allow the correct factions within MS to start emerging and taking center stage.
They offer backlit keybaords in their PREMIUM lines, not all their machines. Note that from the other PC vendors you can buy a more expensive machine that may actually have less performance than a cheaper one because the PREMIUM machine is thinner, lighter and has other PREMIUM features that increase the price.
I think it?s Dell that offers the thinnest MBA competitor now and I also think it?s Dell that has a line of PCs that is even greener than Apple?s, the difference being that Apple is EPEAT Gold across the board or nearly across the board, while other vendors only do it on their limited PREMIUM products, not the bulk of their sales which already make little profit so it would be pointless to add it.
I thought you had stated that Premium doesn?t actually exist. I?m not willing to look it up, but if that is the case, then my bad.
Oh I see so Apple is only half premium. My bad. You guys need to make up your mind. So the person that spends far too much on a BTO macbook and pays like 1500.00 with Applecare shouldn't get a premium product.
What I have said if you go back and read is premium is not a fact its a matter of opinion. What you might consider a premium option I might not and the other way around. You might be willing to pay for something that I might not be willing to pay for based on the difference in our needs. That seems very logical to me rather then saying one company is premium and the other is not.
Its would be hard to say that AppleTV, Apple mini and the macbook are premium products compared to other options on the market. People shouldn't have to spend 2500,00 on a macbook pro to have a premium product. You would think 1500.00 would get you something a bit better then a low grade notebook wrapped in plastic. Yet again just my opinion.
I'm more intrigued by the insanely huge American flags in one of the shots. Is MS on some sort of super jingoistic GO-USA! charge or something? How odd.
well you can't blame them for trying, so they're trying with every possible thing they think will stick
they will also be hosting birthday parties...cannot wait to see pictures of those...
I think you might have some good points but the way you make them detract from their validity.
In the first place, everyone enjoys a certain amount of validation - Apple fans love to point out when MicroSoft or others emulate them. The more blatant the copying - the louder the outcry, because they perceive hypocrisy in people like Balmer who states one position (i.e., software piracy is bad), yet seems to have little qualm about copying the things that Apple seems to have done right.
Windows fans - on the other hand - can rightly point out that the sheer size of the market share - despite how one might characterize it or attempt to detract from it, is certainly impressive. I for one have a certain amount of MS stock that I have bought or inherited over they years and I sincerely hope that MicroSoft does everything it can to maximize its profit position.
It does seem like there is a shift in the balance that has been acknowledged for years - where the upstart Apple has certain fanboys that like to flout their ownership as proof of a relative supperiority over those who have not gone Apple - while MS was always content to be raking in the dough despite being disdained in Apple fanboy eyes.
Now there is a kind of collective "I told you so" on the part of Apple fanboys which seems tilting in their direction with the recent wins in their columns through the iTune and iPhone dynasties. And, might I say it, nobody really likes to be told in that fashion.
Of course MS is not scared, but I attend the shareholder meetings and I can tell you that many of the small investors sometimes wonder if Mr. Ballmer has the correct vision. I sometimes fantisize about a really intelligent rational appearing person (;ike Cook) taking the helm at MS and seeing what that would do to transform the company.
Say what anybody will, increased competition will only make it better for all concerned because MS and Apple really need each other to compete against. We should all really be secretly proud when we see Apple innovate and see MS smart enough to emulate what they do well.
You are correct when you say that bashing is pathetic - but that pathos is a two way street my friend. Appple is finding their way and although I can kick myself for never having converted all my assets from MS into AAPL, I look forward to the day when my patience in MS will start to pay off again, as will others investment is Google, etc..
It will not only be better for those like me heavily vested in MS - it will be better for Apple as well because everyone will hopefully gain from the experience. I for one hope MS continues to do everything within its power to maximize their profitability - and if that means opening stores for image development despite a clear sense of public awareness of what exactly it is they will sell, I say do it!
At least they are not sitting around doing nothing - and I can tell you that not everything you have been lead to believe is an empty promise or vaporware from Redmond.
You made alot of really good point. I also feel that Ballmer has really hurt MS instead of helped them. However just becasue someone is the face of a company doesn't mean they make every decision. I think it would be foolish to think Bill Gates doesn't have a hand in what going on along with many other people we never hear about. Same goes with Apple some think SJ is sitting around making ever decision for Apple clearly he has people that he trusts that also play a hand in how the company is run.
I have never said Apple is not a solid company, as are Google and MS. They all add value to the game and they all provide a product that we can use or choose not too.
Apple used TN panels on their 20inch iMacs. Most vendors now offer backlit keyboards. Is milled AL better, maybe but I have never had a problem with any of my Sony or HP laptops. Most PC home users do not use AIO's because most PC users are not forced to pick between an AIO and a few notebook models. We have options.
Unless you are a tree hugger no one cares if their PC is environmentally friendly or not. All LED does is make the display thinner which most could care less about thin. That is an Apple obession.
This is what I consider Premium. I run with a 1200 watt power supply. A EVGA x58 3way sli motherboard. Intel Core i7 extreme edition 3.33ghz overclocked to 4.3ghz, 8gb corsair ddr 3, 1333 ram. Dual 285 nividia cards. Raid 5 with four hitachi drives. Oh and my keyboard is backlit thank god. Dual LG (Matte) 24" monitors.
My system can do anything I ask it to do and it can boot Vista x64 in 25sec.
Not every windows user has an 800.00 gateway computer or a netbook.
In no way am I saying that Apple doesn't have good products I own many of them myself and have for years but we all have our own opinion on what we consider Premium. Thats the only point I was trying to make.
You're making our point for us.
There are 3 categories of computers.
Low-end, low margin.
High end, high margin.
Custom.
In the car world, that breaks down into Ford, Mercedes and Nascar.
You know quite well where MS, Apple, and you fall into those categories.
Hot-rodded PCs are irrelevant to the argument.
Apple can buy Dell with pocket change, and will probably pass MS in market capitalization by end of 2010. MS will continue to bottom feed and follow.
What I have said if you go back and read is premium is not a fact its a matter of opinion. What you might consider a premium option I might not and the other way around. You might be willing to pay for something that I might not be willing to pay for based on the difference in our needs.
If your stance is that premium is an opinion, then why does it sound like you are saying that everyone who thinks Apple makes premium products is wrong?
They can do quite well by being for the 'every-man' as opposed to trying to snatch the premium end of the market. Windows does the job, and that's good enough for most and there's certainly money to be made in that segment. Apple is the best at what they do, Microsoft shouldn't bother wasting their cash on competing on behalf of vendors since they'll just lose anyway. If they spent their resources on making Windows better, there wouldn't even be an argument for switching - and the Apple Tax would be more than just a myth.
Some things I just can't understand!
You're making our point for us.
There are 3 categories of computers.
Low-end, low margin.
High end, high margin.
Custom.
In the car world, that breaks down into Ford, Mercedes and Nascar.
You know quite well where MS, Apple, and you fall into those categories.
Hot-rodded PCs are irrelevant to the argument.
Apple can buy Dell with pocket change, and will probably pass MS in market capitalization by end of 2010. MS will continue to bottom feed and follow.
You're blending everything together. Microsoft would care less if Apple brought Dell. What does that have to do with anything. Also is MS bottom feeling when many Apple users install Windows via bootcamp? Are they also bottom feeding when 85% of all housholds with Apple computers also have Windows systems? Apple will never pass MS on anything. Even SJ had to break down and admit that a long time ago.
Apples shares are based on Steve Jobs staying alive.
Your answer on Premium is total BS because you can't come up with a real answer because the fact is Apple doesn't make anything premium compared to anyone else.
I can't decide if your ignorant of marketing and business practices or purposefully being obtuse.
Lets look at this from a different angle. Compare a Toyota Corolla to a Bmw 1 series. The Toyota and Bmw both have internal combustion engines, tires etc. and probably share some components or at least components from the same manufacturers and parts vendors. The Toyota's quality in regards to durability and reliability and defects per car will most likely be superior to the Bmw. For many reasons though the Bmw is considered the Premium car and is priced according to what Bmw thinks the market will bear. To me the price of a 1 series is inflated and does not represent a good value for what you get. So does that mean it is not a "Premium" product or brand? No, because the market as a whole considers it a premium product weather or not they purchase or even cross shop that brand. Same point comparing Apple and Microsoft +Hardware Vendor. Many people who may never even look at an Apple product have a notion that it is a "premium" product. That is how marketing and market forces work. If there was not some sort of premium, real or percieved, quality Apple would not be able to charge a premium price. At least not for long.
Oh right- I forgot no retail store has ever posted large pictures of their products on their walls before. Does Apple own a copyright on that? GAP anyone?
You clearly have never been in an Apple Store. This thing is a photocopy. The exact same tables, the floors even the video walls from the original design of the first store. down to the including of and location of the Guru bars. Everyone borrows but they blatantly steal then doesn't even try to hide it then will try to make like they were first. If they had a snowball chance of being successful with this they will change in about 5 years to saying Apple copied the retail idea from them and their partners and their blind legions with believe them, even though the were there for the truth.
If your stance is that premium is an opinion, then why does it sound like you are saying that everyone who thinks Apple makes premium products is wrong?
If that how it came across that wasn't my intent. I own Apple products and I like them alot. There are certain Apple products that I would never stop buying. What got me into this thread is the nonsense that everytime someone else does something they are either scared or copying Apple. Of course things when off topic from there as they tend to do on most forums.
Everytime someone else does something, Google, Verizon, RIM, Walmart, Amazon, MS, Dell, Hp you see a segment of this forum flip out about how they are scared or they are copying or how they are going to fail and I just have to wonder where the hell that comes from and where the anger comes from to see competition. Some of the people that post when you ask them if they have even used Vista don't reply back because you know damn well they have never even used the OS.
Its the elite attitude that makes people think every Apple user is an a$$hole. There was a good article on this a while back about Apples biggest problem is not Apple but its users.
I know this will piss people off but fair amount of us know its true.