As for IP law, I'm no expert. However, my brother was a patent examiner, member of the patent bar and is now in law school focusing on IP. I don't get the impression that it's garbage, even if it IS a money generator.
I might just be bitter, but if IP law was working anything like intended, you wouldnt see countless tech lawsuits that pay off because a jury somewhere in Texas, educated at a highschool level, is conned into thinking they know what it takes to create such IP.
Most tech companies I have worked with seek patents just as a preparation to sue in case someone makes a dead end technology pay.
2 years it's not a long time for investigating iPhone, take converations with Apple, and the suing it.
You say that you haven't decided who is right or wrong, but you continue to argue points that leave room for Apple to be on the wrong side of this. I think it's clear that you have formed somewhat of an opinion like the rest of us. This statement I'm replying to for instance seems IMO to be just an opinion.
It's true that nothing can be determined until at least a teeny-tiny bit of the facts are known and right now we nothing other than the bare fact that company A is suing company B. All that being said though, the comments (by some), above to the effect of people drawing conclusions and presuming the innocence or guilt of one party or the other are a bit off-base IMO. True we don't know the facts, but that doesn't invalidate having an opinion on how things look right now. If you believe that we should wait then the whole thread might as well be deleted.
IMO in the absence of facts to the contrary, I think it's more likely that Apple in in the right here. I think this simply because of what I know about the two companies involved and the history we know about the development of the iPhone. That doesn't mean I'm right, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that I have an opinion, or mean that said opinion is based on nothing at all.
Apple is the new player in the market. They didn't just willy-nilly decide to make a phone one day and jump in the market. They have one of the sharpest legal teams on the planet and years and years of experience in the field. They planned everything about this project in great detail over a long multi-year period before we even got a single hint that they were even making a phone. I think it's very unlikely that they did not know about these patents, and even more unlikely that they would just ignore them.
One has to assume at least that they have a very very good argument as to why they shouldn't pay, and one also has to assume that they in fact *do* pay *some* parties for *some* licensed technology for the iPhone. It makes no sense to me that while planning this product they costed out those patents and then decided to not pay for some of them unless they had a good reason to believe they could get away with it.
Well, we don't know whether there had been negotiations with Apple for fees prior to this case but it is almost certain that the fact Nokia are up shit creak financially* that they have brought this case. To be honest, they should be looking at sacking their board of directors if they can piss away such an amount of money.
*Nokia's third quarter 2009 reported overall operating loss was EUR 426 million, compared with an operating profit of EUR 1.5 billion in the third quarter 2008. Thats a drop of nearly EUR 2 billion from this time last year. Operating profit in Devices & Services decreased 51% to EUR 785 million (EUR 1,602 million Q3 2008) . Ouch.
in so many cases like these, the two parties cannot agree about WHO pay WHAT.
There are many reasons to think you have rights but no.
Maybe you bought the technology to someone else with the right, but in fact they were not authorized to licence it themselves
or maybe the original creator think they have not the right, but in fact they did (!)
or they use a version for a body standard and you are part of the organisation ?
there were many older case. none of the both parties were Evil, all both parties tried to explain they were right, and the judge and jury spend MONTH to read all the papers to know what is what.
and sometimes, the looser sued an other company who told they sold them the rights but.. no, in fact it was wrong.
I think Apple is right or wrong and neither Nokia or Apple are evil.
Well, we don't know whether there had been negotiations with Apple for fees prior to this case but it is almost certain that the fact Nokia are up shit creak financially* that they have brought this case. To be honest, they should be looking at sacking their board of directors if they can piss away such an amount of money.
*Nokia's third quarter 2009 reported overall operating loss was EUR 426 million, compared with an operating profit of EUR 1.5 billion in the third quarter 2008. Thats a drop of nearly EUR 2 billion from this time last year. Operating profit in Devices & Services decreased 51% to EUR 785 million (EUR 1,602 million Q3 2008) . Ouch.
You are right about the board of directors! If they lost that much money why would you let them continue to run the company?
As to the lawsuit....I think this kind of suit goes on more than we think. Nokia waited until it would be economically feasible for them to sue. It also seems from some articles that they WERE in contact with Apple from the beginning and that the negotiations were not progressing so they decided to sue.
I might just be bitter, but if IP law was working anything like intended, you wouldnt see countless tech lawsuits that pay off because a jury somewhere in Texas, educated at a highschool level, is conned into thinking they know what it takes to create such IP.
Most tech companies I have worked with seek patents just as a preparation to sue in case someone makes a dead end technology pay.
For once, this lawsuit was actually filed in Delaware, not Texas. That off the bat gives it more credibility than others.
It's Nokia for godsake!! The largest cellphone manufacturer in Europe and Asia. People here think they would persue this without a strong case?
And what? Apple isnt conservative? Isnt one of the largest tech companies in the US with tons of lawyers who could see cases like this 3 years off? Would willing open itself up to a massive judgment when there is no reason to?
Nokia has a lot of valid IP in this area, and I am sure but it is all going to come down to which shades of grey the lawyers can make a jury see. They patented most of this stuff so they could possibly stiffle competition and get a payday if someone out does them...just like any tech company out there.
Tekstud, Did Apple kick your puppy when you were a kid or something?
And what? Apple isnt conservative? Isnt one of the largest tech companies in the US with tons of lawyers who could see cases like this 3 years off? Would willing open itself up to a massive judgment when there is no reason to?
Nokia has a lot of valid IP in this area, and I am sure but it is all going to come down to which shades of grey the lawyers can make a jury see. They patented most of this stuff so they could possibly stiffle competition and get a payday if someone out does them...just like any tech company out there.
Tekstud, Did Apple kick your puppy when you were a kid or something?
Dude - you're defending Apple like this is the Pystar case. Go back to drinking your morning Koolatra brew. You obviously have your distortion field mode on.
And FYI, greedy is not synonomous for conservative.
Dude - you're defending Apple like this is the Pystar case. Go back to drinking your morning Koolatra brew. You obviously have your distortion field mode on.
And FYI, greedy is not synonomous for conservative.
So Apple is just greedy, but Nokia is conservative? And I am the one with the distortion field on? Do you have any experience in business?
Lol, I have no idea what a "Koolatra brew" is, perhaps you could enlighten us. I am glad to see that there is someone more bitter than me about this issue, however I find it strange that you consistantly and constantly rant (baselessly for the most part) about Apple on a pro Apple site. Seems like you would have a better forum over at Tom's Hardware or Anadtech, but I guess here you arent just one Troll among many and you can feel like a big man.
So Apple is just greedy, but Nokia is conservative? And I am the one with the distortion field on? Do you have any experience in business?
Lol, I have no idea what a "Koolatra brew" is, perhaps you could enlighten us. I am glad to see that there is someone more bitter than me about this issue, however I find it strange that you consistantly and constantly rant (baselessly for the most part) about Apple on a pro Apple site. Seems like you would have a better forum over at Tom's Hardware or Anadtech, but I guess here you arent just one Troll among many and you can feel like a big man.
Ill stop feeding the Troll now, rant away...
Only a Fanbot would religiously defend Apple in every singly case as you do. FYI- I do not "constistently and constantly rant" against Apple, I just don't defend it blindly.
You say Apple is conservative yet give no explanation. Do you have experience in anything other than cheerleading BIG MON?
I wonder if RIM and all the other phone makers are being looked at by Nokia.
I think it was noted in a link I posted earlier that Nokia had licensing agreements from the other service providers. They contacted Apple when the iPhone came out but the negotiations did not go very well in reaching an agreement for licensing....from Nokia's point of view anyway....so that is why they sued.
And the winners are: a bunch of greedy lawyers....
Why are they greedy? They're hired aren't they? They chose a good profession didn't they? Is it not the fault of the patent system that $$ gets wasted? Anyway regardless of who's fault it is, I'm sure if your child or parent was raking it in as an IP lawyer I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining.
Comments
As for IP law, I'm no expert. However, my brother was a patent examiner, member of the patent bar and is now in law school focusing on IP. I don't get the impression that it's garbage, even if it IS a money generator.
I might just be bitter, but if IP law was working anything like intended, you wouldnt see countless tech lawsuits that pay off because a jury somewhere in Texas, educated at a highschool level, is conned into thinking they know what it takes to create such IP.
Most tech companies I have worked with seek patents just as a preparation to sue in case someone makes a dead end technology pay.
2 years it's not a long time for investigating iPhone, take converations with Apple, and the suing it.
You say that you haven't decided who is right or wrong, but you continue to argue points that leave room for Apple to be on the wrong side of this. I think it's clear that you have formed somewhat of an opinion like the rest of us. This statement I'm replying to for instance seems IMO to be just an opinion.
It's true that nothing can be determined until at least a teeny-tiny bit of the facts are known and right now we nothing other than the bare fact that company A is suing company B. All that being said though, the comments (by some), above to the effect of people drawing conclusions and presuming the innocence or guilt of one party or the other are a bit off-base IMO. True we don't know the facts, but that doesn't invalidate having an opinion on how things look right now. If you believe that we should wait then the whole thread might as well be deleted.
IMO in the absence of facts to the contrary, I think it's more likely that Apple in in the right here. I think this simply because of what I know about the two companies involved and the history we know about the development of the iPhone. That doesn't mean I'm right, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that I have an opinion, or mean that said opinion is based on nothing at all.
Apple is the new player in the market. They didn't just willy-nilly decide to make a phone one day and jump in the market. They have one of the sharpest legal teams on the planet and years and years of experience in the field. They planned everything about this project in great detail over a long multi-year period before we even got a single hint that they were even making a phone. I think it's very unlikely that they did not know about these patents, and even more unlikely that they would just ignore them.
One has to assume at least that they have a very very good argument as to why they shouldn't pay, and one also has to assume that they in fact *do* pay *some* parties for *some* licensed technology for the iPhone. It makes no sense to me that while planning this product they costed out those patents and then decided to not pay for some of them unless they had a good reason to believe they could get away with it.
*Nokia's third quarter 2009 reported overall operating loss was EUR 426 million, compared with an operating profit of EUR 1.5 billion in the third quarter 2008. Thats a drop of nearly EUR 2 billion from this time last year. Operating profit in Devices & Services decreased 51% to EUR 785 million (EUR 1,602 million Q3 2008) . Ouch.
sue anyone who pays!
If I was a lawyer
I'd sue for all my days
There are many reasons to think you have rights but no.
Maybe you bought the technology to someone else with the right, but in fact they were not authorized to licence it themselves
or maybe the original creator think they have not the right, but in fact they did (!)
or they use a version for a body standard and you are part of the organisation ?
there were many older case. none of the both parties were Evil, all both parties tried to explain they were right, and the judge and jury spend MONTH to read all the papers to know what is what.
and sometimes, the looser sued an other company who told they sold them the rights but.. no, in fact it was wrong.
I think Apple is right or wrong and neither Nokia or Apple are evil.
I will continue to buy apple and nokia stuff.
the patent system is THAT broken.
Well, we don't know whether there had been negotiations with Apple for fees prior to this case but it is almost certain that the fact Nokia are up shit creak financially* that they have brought this case. To be honest, they should be looking at sacking their board of directors if they can piss away such an amount of money.
*Nokia's third quarter 2009 reported overall operating loss was EUR 426 million, compared with an operating profit of EUR 1.5 billion in the third quarter 2008. Thats a drop of nearly EUR 2 billion from this time last year. Operating profit in Devices & Services decreased 51% to EUR 785 million (EUR 1,602 million Q3 2008) . Ouch.
You are right about the board of directors! If they lost that much money why would you let them continue to run the company?
As to the lawsuit....I think this kind of suit goes on more than we think. Nokia waited until it would be economically feasible for them to sue. It also seems from some articles that they WERE in contact with Apple from the beginning and that the negotiations were not progressing so they decided to sue.
Here is an article from PC World:
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/2...oftheiphonepie
Anyway I think in the long run Apple will settle and pay Nokia a licensing fee......
We're not talking Pystar here. Good luck Apple.
Apple sues if you use the word "pod" in you website or have a fruit logo with the stem facing left (our right).
The Karma chameleon has struck again.
I might just be bitter, but if IP law was working anything like intended, you wouldnt see countless tech lawsuits that pay off because a jury somewhere in Texas, educated at a highschool level, is conned into thinking they know what it takes to create such IP.
Most tech companies I have worked with seek patents just as a preparation to sue in case someone makes a dead end technology pay.
For once, this lawsuit was actually filed in Delaware, not Texas. That off the bat gives it more credibility than others.
For once, this lawsuit was actually filed in Delaware, not Texas. That off the bat gives it more credibility than others.
It's Nokia for godsake!! The largest cellphone manufacturer in Europe and Asia. People here think they would persue this without a strong case?
I'm still waiting for Apple to sue Palm re iTunes . Where's that case? Maybe Apple doesn't have one?
It's Nokia for godsake!! The largest cellphone manufacturer in Europe and Asia. People here think they would persue this without a strong case?
And what? Apple isnt conservative? Isnt one of the largest tech companies in the US with tons of lawyers who could see cases like this 3 years off? Would willing open itself up to a massive judgment when there is no reason to?
Nokia has a lot of valid IP in this area, and I am sure but it is all going to come down to which shades of grey the lawyers can make a jury see. They patented most of this stuff so they could possibly stiffle competition and get a payday if someone out does them...just like any tech company out there.
Tekstud, Did Apple kick your puppy when you were a kid or something?
And what? Apple isnt conservative? Isnt one of the largest tech companies in the US with tons of lawyers who could see cases like this 3 years off? Would willing open itself up to a massive judgment when there is no reason to?
Nokia has a lot of valid IP in this area, and I am sure but it is all going to come down to which shades of grey the lawyers can make a jury see. They patented most of this stuff so they could possibly stiffle competition and get a payday if someone out does them...just like any tech company out there.
Tekstud, Did Apple kick your puppy when you were a kid or something?
Dude - you're defending Apple like this is the Pystar case. Go back to drinking your morning Koolatra brew. You obviously have your distortion field mode on.
And FYI, greedy is not synonomous for conservative.
Dude - you're defending Apple like this is the Pystar case. Go back to drinking your morning Koolatra brew. You obviously have your distortion field mode on.
And FYI, greedy is not synonomous for conservative.
So Apple is just greedy, but Nokia is conservative? And I am the one with the distortion field on? Do you have any experience in business?
Lol, I have no idea what a "Koolatra brew" is, perhaps you could enlighten us. I am glad to see that there is someone more bitter than me about this issue, however I find it strange that you consistantly and constantly rant (baselessly for the most part) about Apple on a pro Apple site. Seems like you would have a better forum over at Tom's Hardware or Anadtech, but I guess here you arent just one Troll among many and you can feel like a big man.
Ill stop feeding the Troll now, rant away...
So Apple is just greedy, but Nokia is conservative? And I am the one with the distortion field on? Do you have any experience in business?
Lol, I have no idea what a "Koolatra brew" is, perhaps you could enlighten us. I am glad to see that there is someone more bitter than me about this issue, however I find it strange that you consistantly and constantly rant (baselessly for the most part) about Apple on a pro Apple site. Seems like you would have a better forum over at Tom's Hardware or Anadtech, but I guess here you arent just one Troll among many and you can feel like a big man.
Ill stop feeding the Troll now, rant away...
Only a Fanbot would religiously defend Apple in every singly case as you do. FYI- I do not "constistently and constantly rant" against Apple, I just don't defend it blindly.
You say Apple is conservative yet give no explanation. Do you have experience in anything other than cheerleading BIG MON?
I wonder if RIM and all the other phone makers are being looked at by Nokia.
I think it was noted in a link I posted earlier that Nokia had licensing agreements from the other service providers. They contacted Apple when the iPhone came out but the negotiations did not go very well in reaching an agreement for licensing....from Nokia's point of view anyway....so that is why they sued.
And the winners are: a bunch of greedy lawyers....
Why are they greedy? They're hired aren't they? They chose a good profession didn't they? Is it not the fault of the patent system that $$ gets wasted? Anyway regardless of who's fault it is, I'm sure if your child or parent was raking it in as an IP lawyer I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining.
You say Apple is conservative yet give no explanation...
And, what (and where) is your explanation for why Nokia is 'conservative'?
It's Nokia for godsake!! The largest cellphone manufacturer in Europe and Asia.
Actually they are THE largest cellphone manufacturer in the WORLD