Good to be finally able to dump the monster CE unit for something "a little more respectable"
Damn Hillstones, been out much? Portable has nothing to do with that signature reader you sign at grocery stores, Wally World, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, and a thousand other places - for the last 10 years. Same device, only fixed.
I can understand the concern though, with the fixed device, you pretty much know with reasonable confidence that it's an authorized terminal. With a handheld device, you don't know who controls the device. While it's unlikely, it might not take that much of a con to make something work similarly enough, you don't need a real swipe reader, the con man can just say "oh, the stripe doesn't read, let me enter it", "sign here" and they'll have enough information to make fake transactions.
Even if you do hundreds of transactions a day, I understand how frustrating it can be when three of them don't work right.
Same with the beach ball when I surf the web but I would never switch my OS or browser, I just deal with it. Nothing in life is perfect 100% of the time- not even an Apple product.
I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.
My first several experiences at an Apple store were very frustration for reasons such as this. I don't know if they did not yet have the Concierges who now accost you as soon as you walk into the store, but I remember walking in to find something simple like a cable or adapter. I found it without the help of an employee and was ready to buy it and leave but could not figure out where to go to pay for my item. It was quite some time ago so I can't remember for sure, but I may have left without making the purchase out of frustration.
This was made possible by the dock APIs which were only released to the public in June. This device started dev in April from reports I've seen.
I'm sure Apple has wanted to get any Windows pollution out of their stores from day one.
Well then why did Apple let the Windows "pollution" into their store in the first place, set themself up for such ridicule, and try to maintain such a shameful secret?
Apple stores operated long before they had these handhelds. Surely you aren't suggesting that these Windows devices assisted them in achieving their record retail glory?
Correct, I'm from the UK. If you try and swipe a card (which has a chip) banks will in many cases will reject it. They want to read the chip, they want to read the pin...
For the record, this is the same in Canada. Well, they won't refuse it because there's laws against that, but almost all cards now have chips and the chip readers are much preferred.
I think people are making too much of this though. The US is often behind on technical stuff like this because they don't spend money on their infrastructure being the arch Capitalists they are.
I'm sure there is a slightly different model in the works with a chip reader slot on the bottom instead of a swipey thing on the side.
It probably wouldn't be possible to have the chip reader onboard. A separate purpose specific terminal has to be used for that. They can have handheld versions of those too.
With magnetic stripe/ signature payment there is no real security because all thats really needed to make the transaction is the card number. There is no problem with the iPhone doing this because this information would be openly available to the seller anyways.
With a chip system, the terminal relays information from the smart card to the credit card company directly. The purchaser has the card number, but they don't have access to the pin and the chip. The communication between the smart card and the credit card company would have to be secured so a purpose specific device would have to be used with its own secure OS, separate from the POS system. These credit card/debit terminals usually have an encryption key that is stored in volatile memory so that if the device is tampered with the keys are lost and the terminal becomes useless.
These are the first units rolled out, not far from prototypes. There is no reason that a version 2.0 could be rolled out that is able to read the Euro style "chip" credit card. If you notice that the rollout and testing was being done in the usa does it not make sense that they are focusing on their current real world use.
This looks very nice and completely blows away the old Symbol-EasyPay system. I can imagine quite a lot of demand for the case if it is made available outside Apple, especially if it were made to fit an iPhone. Obviously, you'd need to write your own software to use it (although a general POS app would work for many), but it would be a very elegant solution combined with a BT printer for those situations where you need to print a physical receipt on the spot.
Was the software developed in-house? It doesn't have that "Apple" look to it.
What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.
For the record, this is the same in Canada. Well, they won't refuse it because there's laws against that, but almost all cards now have chips and the chip readers are much preferred.
I think people are making too much of this though. The US is often behind on technical stuff like this because they don't spend money on their infrastructure being the arch Capitalists they are.
I'm sure there is a slightly different model in the works with a chip reader slot on the bottom instead of a swipey thing on the side.
i don't know about Canada or Europe, but in the US the rules are that the merchant pays for unauthorized credit card use most of the time because they are supposed to check for ID and/or signatures. and they run fraud software in the background to protect against theft. i've seen people with stolen cards get all the charges taken off because once they call the bank, the merchant is asked to provide receipts with the signature to match up to the card holder's signature.
any security scheme where most of the work is done on the client is doomed to failure
I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.
yes and no.
If the customer is buying a computer, ipod etc there's little confusion cause the employee whips out the pay thing and starts scanning things.
but for folks that aren't used to an apple store that walk in and get a laptop bag, phone case, piece of software etc they can be confused cause they don't know where to go. which is not really going to be helped by this new system. apparently they are getting rid of the whole this shirt/that shirt that they started a couple of years ago and now if the floor staff (what they were calling Specialists and Concierges) are just staff. they all do everything. All the check in and such is on those touches as well (and has been for a while at my local stores)
I heard a rumor that there's going to be a app soon that we can put on our phones so if you have an appointment at the Genius Bar you can 'check in' by yourself and when it is your turn it signals your phone so you don't have to stand around close enough to hear them shout. Plus side for Apple is when they tell you that your computer is hosed, you'd already been playing around with the new ones and hopefully are jonesing to get one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus
I'm spotting one major flaw if Apple plans this for international use, like their new store in Paris.
I see no chip reader. The magnetic stripe reader and a signature is all well and good, but many people are now used to chip and pin.
Has it not occurred to you that this IS BRAND NEW TECHNOLOGY FOR APPLE so yeah like perhaps they are totally planning to do that, once they get a few of the kinks out of the system. and maybe you should be happy they didn't decide to use the international market as the guinea pigs.
lets congratulate them for dumping the very nasty, very not well working Windows CE system instead of complaining about what a phase one technology can't do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
the con man can just say "oh, the stripe doesn't read, let me enter it", "sign here" and they'll have enough information to make fake transactions.
that goes on the flip as well. I can fake up a card with the number I stole from you and a worn out stripe and in the old days they would just punch it in.
but I had 2 incidents not to long ago with a card that was worn out where both places (Apple and Gap) would NOT take my card. they said that for customer protection they can no longer just punch in a card number. Don't know if these were company rules or local ones due to major fraud issues. Since it was my debit card and there's an ATM for my bank in the mall it wasn't a huge deal for me to go get the cash for both transactions.
Also to answer the question of why for 4 years, they had nothing to replace it with unless they wanted to go back to a couple of machines in the back. which would not work in my local store and likely not most others. they have probably been working on this since the ipod touch came out. and I won't be shocked if in another year or so they are licensing those cradles to other companies.
Was the software developed in-house? It doesn't have that "Apple" look to it.
What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.
AppleConnect is the in-house POS/timecard/etc. network system. the iForgot button is, IIRC, on all AppleConnect "terminals", for resetting your password. so, it would make sense that it is also on the new EasyPay system.
Comments
Good to be finally able to dump the monster CE unit for something "a little more respectable"
Damn Hillstones, been out much? Portable has nothing to do with that signature reader you sign at grocery stores, Wally World, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, and a thousand other places - for the last 10 years. Same device, only fixed.
I can understand the concern though, with the fixed device, you pretty much know with reasonable confidence that it's an authorized terminal. With a handheld device, you don't know who controls the device. While it's unlikely, it might not take that much of a con to make something work similarly enough, you don't need a real swipe reader, the con man can just say "oh, the stripe doesn't read, let me enter it", "sign here" and they'll have enough information to make fake transactions.
If they were as bad as you state Apple would surely not have utilized them for 4 years. Good grief!
Even if you do hundreds of transactions a day, I understand how frustrating it can be when three of them don't work right.
Thank you. And it's my firm belief- I'v been married to Macs for over 10 years (use PCs at work) and would never switch.
Even if you do hundreds of transactions a day, I understand how frustrating it can be when three of them don't work right.
Same with the beach ball when I surf the web but I would never switch my OS or browser, I just deal with it. Nothing in life is perfect 100% of the time- not even an Apple product.
Great overview and an interesting device.
I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.
My first several experiences at an Apple store were very frustration for reasons such as this. I don't know if they did not yet have the Concierges who now accost you as soon as you walk into the store, but I remember walking in to find something simple like a cable or adapter. I found it without the help of an employee and was ready to buy it and leave but could not figure out where to go to pay for my item. It was quite some time ago so I can't remember for sure, but I may have left without making the purchase out of frustration.
In other words, a portable device for stealing someone's identity! No thanks.
And I won't get an Apple TV without Blu Ray.
And I won't get a iMac with a glossy screen.
And I won't get an iPhone with AT&T.
You guys are a really tough crowd!
If they were as bad as you state Apple would surely not have utilized them for 4 years. Good grief!
And they could have replaced them sooner... how?
This was made possible by the dock APIs which were only released to the public in June. This device started dev in April from reports I've seen.
I'm sure Apple has wanted to get any Windows pollution out of their stores from day one.
And they could have replaced them sooner... how?
This was made possible by the dock APIs which were only released to the public in June. This device started dev in April from reports I've seen.
I'm sure Apple has wanted to get any Windows pollution out of their stores from day one.
Well then why did Apple let the Windows "pollution" into their store in the first place, set themself up for such ridicule, and try to maintain such a shameful secret?
Apple stores operated long before they had these handhelds. Surely you aren't suggesting that these Windows devices assisted them in achieving their record retail glory?
Correct, I'm from the UK. If you try and swipe a card (which has a chip) banks will in many cases will reject it. They want to read the chip, they want to read the pin...
For the record, this is the same in Canada. Well, they won't refuse it because there's laws against that, but almost all cards now have chips and the chip readers are much preferred.
I think people are making too much of this though. The US is often behind on technical stuff like this because they don't spend money on their infrastructure being the arch Capitalists they are.
I'm sure there is a slightly different model in the works with a chip reader slot on the bottom instead of a swipey thing on the side.
The US is often behind on technical stuff like this because they don't spend money on their infrastructure being the arch Capitalists they are.
.
Here we go with yet another attempt from you at a political derailment although this time I'm not biting.
With magnetic stripe/ signature payment there is no real security because all thats really needed to make the transaction is the card number. There is no problem with the iPhone doing this because this information would be openly available to the seller anyways.
With a chip system, the terminal relays information from the smart card to the credit card company directly. The purchaser has the card number, but they don't have access to the pin and the chip. The communication between the smart card and the credit card company would have to be secured so a purpose specific device would have to be used with its own secure OS, separate from the POS system. These credit card/debit terminals usually have an encryption key that is stored in volatile memory so that if the device is tampered with the keys are lost and the terminal becomes useless.
This looks very nice and completely blows away the old Symbol-EasyPay system.
Yes- that is what usually occurs when technology advances 5 years later.
What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.
For the record, this is the same in Canada. Well, they won't refuse it because there's laws against that, but almost all cards now have chips and the chip readers are much preferred.
I think people are making too much of this though. The US is often behind on technical stuff like this because they don't spend money on their infrastructure being the arch Capitalists they are.
I'm sure there is a slightly different model in the works with a chip reader slot on the bottom instead of a swipey thing on the side.
i don't know about Canada or Europe, but in the US the rules are that the merchant pays for unauthorized credit card use most of the time because they are supposed to check for ID and/or signatures. and they run fraud software in the background to protect against theft. i've seen people with stolen cards get all the charges taken off because once they call the bank, the merchant is asked to provide receipts with the signature to match up to the card holder's signature.
any security scheme where most of the work is done on the client is doomed to failure
Great overview and an interesting device.
I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.
yes and no.
If the customer is buying a computer, ipod etc there's little confusion cause the employee whips out the pay thing and starts scanning things.
but for folks that aren't used to an apple store that walk in and get a laptop bag, phone case, piece of software etc they can be confused cause they don't know where to go. which is not really going to be helped by this new system. apparently they are getting rid of the whole this shirt/that shirt that they started a couple of years ago and now if the floor staff (what they were calling Specialists and Concierges) are just staff. they all do everything. All the check in and such is on those touches as well (and has been for a while at my local stores)
I heard a rumor that there's going to be a app soon that we can put on our phones so if you have an appointment at the Genius Bar you can 'check in' by yourself and when it is your turn it signals your phone so you don't have to stand around close enough to hear them shout. Plus side for Apple is when they tell you that your computer is hosed, you'd already been playing around with the new ones and hopefully are jonesing to get one.
I'm spotting one major flaw if Apple plans this for international use, like their new store in Paris.
I see no chip reader. The magnetic stripe reader and a signature is all well and good, but many people are now used to chip and pin.
Has it not occurred to you that this IS BRAND NEW TECHNOLOGY FOR APPLE so yeah like perhaps they are totally planning to do that, once they get a few of the kinks out of the system. and maybe you should be happy they didn't decide to use the international market as the guinea pigs.
lets congratulate them for dumping the very nasty, very not well working Windows CE system instead of complaining about what a phase one technology can't do.
the con man can just say "oh, the stripe doesn't read, let me enter it", "sign here" and they'll have enough information to make fake transactions.
that goes on the flip as well. I can fake up a card with the number I stole from you and a worn out stripe and in the old days they would just punch it in.
but I had 2 incidents not to long ago with a card that was worn out where both places (Apple and Gap) would NOT take my card. they said that for customer protection they can no longer just punch in a card number. Don't know if these were company rules or local ones due to major fraud issues. Since it was my debit card and there's an ATM for my bank in the mall it wasn't a huge deal for me to go get the cash for both transactions.
Also to answer the question of why for 4 years, they had nothing to replace it with unless they wanted to go back to a couple of machines in the back. which would not work in my local store and likely not most others. they have probably been working on this since the ipod touch came out. and I won't be shocked if in another year or so they are licensing those cradles to other companies.
Was the software developed in-house? It doesn't have that "Apple" look to it.
What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.
AppleConnect is the in-house POS/timecard/etc. network system. the iForgot button is, IIRC, on all AppleConnect "terminals", for resetting your password. so, it would make sense that it is also on the new EasyPay system.
and yes, it's developed in-house by Apple.