Okay we both sound like we are on a similar page... I've been a Mac fan for a very long time... SE30 days and even before that back when the OS was free and Apple was a much simpler company. To see the success that Steve has brought to Apple is nothing short of astounding.
Perhaps this is why I'm so uneasy when it comes to the level of control Apple has over the iPhone and the iPod Touch (and presumably any potential tablet moving forward and maybe even the Apple TV Mark II should it ever see the light of day).
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Apple is certainly in the cat bird seat at the moment and yes for every GREAT developer who calls it quits on the iPhone there are 1000 developers who know nothing about the Mac waiting in the wings... Wonderful... but as I said above...
There was a time and it wasn't that long ago when we all believed that QUALITY was always more important that QUANTITY. Somehow we are all being told we should now think just the opposite. Well I for one won't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermark
Thanks for the clarity. My only comment on the statement that Apple is pissing off developers left and right is that while it's clear that Apple's process has rankled quite a few, majorly pissed on some and lead to a tiny handful of defections, this must be measured against two things:
1) They have a tremendous flow of new third-party apps and existing app updates to contend with on a daily basis, and managing that is non-trivial;
2) iPhone is a governed platform. As such, to pass through the "approval" gates requires some combination of protocol, systems-based process and human touch, which can be a recipe for capriciousness and some blatantly wacky scenarios.
As such, all of the active debate in the blogosphere really shines a light on areas on serious boiling points in developer universe, and in general, they seem to be listening to the community at large (some good threads in the past at Daring Fireball) so I am cautiously optimistic that they will work through the latest angst go around.
That said, it's worth sounding the collective alarm when sense is that they are crossing the line.
Isn't it great to be able to brag about QUANTITY over QUALITY...
Strange thing is... and it wasn't that long ago, we Mac users mocked Windoze users who bragged about the zillions of apps they could run and our cry was QUALITY not QUANTITY!
I wonder what changed?
The iPhone's App Store is a completely different situation. at this point in the mobile game, App QUANTITY is key to success. And everyone knows the App Store has the highest quality apps as well. There's just more of everything on the App Store.
(Oh, and in other news, Psystar just got buried, meaning they lost on all their pleadings. Game over.)
You know the axiom about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it so nuff said there. That said, I really believe that Apple and Jobs understand PC history to the bone, which is why this iPhone play has had such a Microsoft like platform-build feel about it.
In terms of locking in consumers, the emphasis on quantity over quality, the race to the bottom pricing wise, are all things that made perfect sense for phase one of a consumer-centric platform play like this, as the "there's an app for that" meme has established, and set the bar for everyone else.
The next phase has to be about killer apps (obviously there are plenty of rocking apps, but..), verticals and breakout success companies built around the platform. Love or hate Microsoft, there were many $100M plus companies built on their platform, which is the ultimate anchor on developer loyalty. To your point, the next milestone of Apps count (150K, 200K?) in itself means less and less.
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Sidebar: my entry point into Apple was the Apple I/II at the Byte Store in Santa Monica (first PC was a TRS-80); professionally, 94-95, and the brief glimmer of hope around PowerPC then, poof, so remember too well Apple becoming rotten to the core. Hard not to celebrate their accomplishments since and want to be protective of their continued ascent. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee
Okay we both sound like we are on a similar page... I've been a Mac fan for a very long time... SE30 days and even before that back when the OS was free and Apple was a much simpler company. To see the success that Steve has brought to Apple is nothing short of astounding.
Perhaps this is why I'm so uneasy when it comes to the level of control Apple has over the iPhone and the iPod Touch (and presumably any potential tablet moving forward and maybe even the Apple TV Mark II should it ever see the light of day).
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Apple is certainly in the cat bird seat at the moment and yes for every GREAT developer who calls it quits on the iPhone there are 1000 developers who know nothing about the Mac waiting in the wings... Wonderful... but as I said above...
There was a time and it wasn't that long ago when we all believed that QUALITY was always more important that QUANTITY. Somehow we are all being told we should now think just the opposite. Well I for one won't do it.
The iPhone can be as much of a game machine as Apple cares to make it, as long as it isn't just a game machine. That would be an enormous waste of a brilliant new mobile platform.
You know the axiom about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it so nuff said there. That said, I really believe that Apple and Jobs understand PC history to the bone, which is why this iPhone play has had such a Microsoft like platform-build feel about it.
Ya know I never really looked at this in that light before... Okay... perhaps I need to let things gel a bit more before I come down so hard on the app store policies..
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermark
In terms of locking in consumers, the emphasis on quantity over quality, the race to the bottom pricing wise, are all things that made perfect sense for phase one of a consumer-centric platform play like this, as the "there's an app for that" meme has established, and set the bar for everyone else.
Yea... okay I didn't look at things that way before but I certainly see your point especially with your preceding comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermark
The next phase has to be about killer apps (obviously there are plenty of rocking apps, but..), verticals and breakout success companies built around the platform. Love or hate Microsoft, there were many $100M plus companies built on their platform, which is the ultimate anchor on developer loyalty. To your point, the next milestone of Apps count (150K, 200K?) in itself means less and less.
Ah but I was in this industry since the very beginning and while many killer companys built their fortunes on the coat tails of Microsoft... one by one Microsoft came back and ate their BREAKFAST, LUNCH AND DINNER...
We both know who I'm speaking of (in no particular order)...
Wordperfect Corporation, Ashton-Tate Corporation, Lotus, Borland International, Banyan Systems, Novel Corporation... and I could go on but we all know that each and every one fell on the sword known as Microsoft... Giants in their day and barely a footnote in history not 20 years later. The only company that escaped a similar fate was Quicken Corporation... and I was at a COMDEX lunch hosted by Quicken when they announced the proposed buy out... but then if I'm not mistaken a federal judge stuck his nose in due in part (i think) to Quickens ties to the banking systems.. anyway...
It will certainly be interesting to see if things play out in a similar way this time with Apple holding the sword... The only change I see is the world has seen MS 'in action' and I'm not sure they'd let another one pull the same kinda stunts but as you said above... "... those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it ..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermark
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Can't argue with that... in fact you might call me a poster child for one of those sides
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermark
Sidebar: my entry point into Apple was the Apple I/II at the Byte Store in Santa Monica (first PC was a TRS-80); professionally, 94-95, and the brief glimmer of hope around PowerPC then, poof, so remember too well Apple becoming rotten to the core. Hard not to celebrate their accomplishments since and want to be protective of their continued ascent. :-)
Okay so we clearly have similar roots thats for sure... I actually started with a PDP11 and then a Pet CBM hey it was a computer WITH a built in monitor! (no dumb-terminal necessary) then I played with the Vic/C-64 fun times for sure... then came my FIRST $440 phone bill... hey who knew those modem calls to Canadian BBS cost so much... I worked every bit of that bill off and then proceeded to do it several more times... Yea I was hooked and then started building 'XTs' and then TURBO-XTs... lol
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
P.S. Even an unconfirmed list would be ok. Or 'any' developer. With or without GREAT software (or ideas).
What on earth are you talking about... I said '3-4 years experience needs to be read as THIS IS AN ENTRY LEVEL POSITION and someone of lets say John Carmack's caliber (or any other highly compensated game developer) shouldn't be applying because the job requirements do not INVITE them to apply. Would you expect a world renowned brain surgeon to apply for a hospital intern position? Yet some how you go off in left field with this:
3-4 years is the minimum requirement, not the max. It's a entry to mid level position not a pure entry level one.
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I never said that and it has nothing to do with my post... All I said was 3-4 years experience as a job requirement screams SUPERSTARS need not apply.
Some fresh outs are superstars. I would think that like Google and MS you have to be pretty good to work at Apple. These will be cream of the crop...some might call them superstars.
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Fair enough... I lack the background in game development to refute your claims.. If you're saying that looking for a developer who INITIALLY had 0-1 years gaming experience was immediately put on to a AAA rated game project (that shipped) and then somewhere in years 3 or 4 got burned out and wants to move not to anther game developer but instead Apple then OKAY.
First, 3-4 years is the minimum requirement. You will find many senior slots with the requirement of "at least 4 years".
Second, yes, there are quite a few folks that start out of school at a larger studio that only has AAA titles.
And third, if you do a job search n Gamasutra for a dev position with 4 years experience "worked on at least one published title" is commonly listed as a qualification.
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Okay... but doesn't it give you the slightest bit of pause that with people of the caliber you speak about above that Apple would need to be posting help wanted ADs in the first place?
No. Everybody posts job apps...from Activision to Vicarious Visions, to Bungie to Microsoft Game to any studio you care to name. Since you don't have the background to "refute" what I say why do you feel the need to criticize at all as opposed to ask why Apple is doing this?
Quote:
You would think that with their backgrounds in the field and their reputations they would know more than enough people that could fill the position without putting up a 'HELP WANTED' sign in the front window of 1 Infinite Loop Drive?
Yes, and they will hire folks they know to be good. But many will be unavailable and it's typically not good to poach from your old company. Your characterization is still negative despite the fact you're nearly completely ignorant about the subject.
Quote:
As to the rest... you've gone far beyond what my comment was about and it was simply this:
Looking for a game developer with 3-4 years experience who as ALSO been personally involved in the release of a AAA rated game was not unlike a movie studio putting up a help wanted ad for an actor or actress with 3-4 years of industry experience who was also personally involved in an 'Summer Blockbuster' or say Academy Award Winning movie.
It's like a movie studio putting up a job position that requires 3-4 years experience in movie production and personally involved in a Summer Blockbuster as his first job. There are lots of folks that fit that category. My cousin fit that category when he first started when he worked sound on the final credits for a summer blockbuster (the guy has golden ears and a natural talent...he got scarfed up by Skywalker Sound). Many new developers will have a similar kind of experience: developing tools, doing a specific animation or effect (I knew one guy, also just starting out that worked 6 months on nothing but a flame effect) or menus or other component of a AAA title.
There's also a good number of actors that fit that category too. Just not in leading roles although even there you find a few. There are a few actors that have won an academy award on their debut performance.
Quote:
You turn around and tell me that it's quite common then okay...
I don't need to "tell" you. I've pointed you at the links. Here's another...the search for 4 years experience required for a software dev from Gamasutra.
You know the axiom about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it so nuff said there. That said, I really believe that Apple and Jobs understand PC history to the bone, which is why this iPhone play has had such a Microsoft like platform-build feel about it.
In what way? There's little beyond a superficial similarity and there are fundamental differences. Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
The closest point of comparison is with MS's Xbox. Which isn't a PC and has significantly different dynamics to the PC market.
Quote:
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Gee, you think that apple might be striving for a benevolent dictatorship. Oh wait, that's exactly what they strive for and for the most part succeed at. There's no "dancing" between the two as if they are some kind of polar opposites.
Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
I would like to contest that statement.
As evidenced in many countries, the iPhone is available by a number of competing companies.
Their ability to become a vendor was predicated on the fact that they meet certain qualifications, e.g., as per the following:
A GSM network
Decrease the costs of their existing data plans
Commit to improving and expanding their wireless network, and in particular 3G
Provide visual voicemail
A list of which some companies could not or would not agree to.
I have a very good friend that has a GM dealership. Unfortunately, of the two vehicles I want to buy, he can't sell me a model made by the competitive car manufacturer or even one from another division of GM. I don't begrudge him or his organization. And we are still friends.
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
P.S. Even an unconfirmed list would be ok. Or 'any' developer. With or without GREAT software (or ideas).
Sorry you totally misunderstood...
I was speaking of Apple's entire history and its ups and downs... and at one time WE APPLE USERS would hear news that ABC isn't developing for Mac OS any longer because it wasn't profitable and they continued to pursue their Windows projects. This is very much ancient history now... none the less it was quite sad news to hear...
Now with that in mind...
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
More clear?
He wants you to provide a source to show that there are many devs leaving apple because of bad treatment.
For the most part, I agree with you that the similarity is overplayed by the broader market in reading that this is going to play out just like the PC, but to call it a superficial similarity, is superficial.
Flash forward 18-36 months from today, and you could see a market where what a mobile device is amounts to is four 'legs' - phone, media, apps platform, carrier/service network, and Android OEMs are now on their 3rd/4th revs and so for all intents of purposes they have gotten the core functionality and the core user experience down to the point that it's iPhone enough-like (or more likely have carved out their own unique 'IT').
Now all of this assumes that the Android platform doesn't fragment across self-interested handset makers and carriers, but if it hasn't, you could readily see a case where third-party R&D shifts to the high volume, multi-handset play (and the legions of ODMs popping up around it), or at least spreads their loyalties.
In fact, one of the best sections of the book 'Apple' by Jim Carlton is when Dan Eilers is in Taiwan and sees accessory maker after accessory maker building third party subsystem add ons for the PC. It's at that moment that he realizes that there is no way that Apple can match the R&D spend of a broader, engaged third party R&D engine that extends way beyond Microsoft.
Today, the choice for developers is relatively clear, and the hardware play is largely limited to a few biggies. That could readily change, which would be PC-like. I think the difference though is that the performance expectations are higher with a mobile device, and closer to what one expects in embedded systems, which takes a deeper level of integration. Plus, if any one android form factor takes off, I expect developers to focus on that specific handset, which leads to fragmentation.
As to the benevolent dictator, and not being able to have it both ways, I think that Apple needs developers engaged, and knows how quickly the tide can turn on that one. Consumers are happy to be bullied for a better end experience. Developers care about the platform working as promised and reach/dollars, not in that order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
In what way? There's little beyond a superficial similarity and there are fundamental differences. Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
The closest point of comparison is with MS's Xbox. Which isn't a PC and has significantly different dynamics to the PC market.
Gee, you think that apple might be striving for a benevolent dictatorship. Oh wait, that's exactly what they strive for and for the most part succeed at. There's no "dancing" between the two as if they are some kind of polar opposites.
Your agreement seemed sarcastic. And you continued to question why they couldn't just find folks via personal contacts.
I'd normally apologize but your writing was really unclear in your "agreement".
Fair enough... and yea guilty as charged... I do tend to fall comfortably into sarcasm every now and again... but you clearly are more involved with the industry then I am no doubt about it.
So, in my least snarky way possible... :
Okay... I submit to your higher authority I was simply going by what I knew about the basic 'business' hiring practices when used for hiring IT folks and such clearly not the same.
No he didn't. He wants you to provide a source to show that there are many devs leaving apple because of bad treatment. More clear?
More clear?!!?!?
READ THIS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
To help you understand...
- Could you (that would be ME)
- provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers (yes I can list LOTS of them)
- who have turned their back on Apple (oh well okay yes I still can list some)
- and are defecting to Windows (okay)
- because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store? (NO!)
NO I CAN NOT LIST ANY APPLE DEVELOPERS WHO HAVE WENT TO WINDOWS DUE TO CRAPPY TREATMENT THE GOT FROM THE APP STORE!
Oh the other hand I NEVER said there were any....
What I said was developers ARE DROPPING SUPPORT FOR THE IPHONE DUE TO CRAPPY TREATMENT!
Just read any non-biased computer news site you can find lots of them but the NEWEST is the developer from Rogue Amoeba (not respectable enough for ya??!?!) oh and 2 days before that the lead developer responsible for the iPhone Twitter App... Another crappy developer I guess?!?!
And here not that you'd get anything from reading it... You'd have to remove those blinders and rose colored glasses:
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
I think you have to take that back.
I don't thing there are more than a handful that would admit that.
Recently, there has been much here said about how John Carmak having issues with the App Store and yet, according to CNBC* and Macworld†, it is not true.
Then there is Tom Richmond and his problems** getting his app Bobble Rep-111th Congress Edition through, certainly has frustrated him immensely. However, I don't think he is going to stop programming for Apple. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if when (and he will) gets it approved, his problem, like a lot of developers have will be that nobody really cares enough to either buy it or use it, if they do, no more than a couple of times.
As I have tried to point our a number of times, the rejection rate is miniscule. Apparently, nearly a quarter of a million apps have been submitted or updated to date. At the current rate of nearly 9-10 thousand new or updated apps being submitted weekly, it sometimes just takes a little more time.
If anybody that has gone to the annual Dev conferences or attended any of their international or University programming sessions, the attitude towards Apple is far from that seen here.
One other thing. For those contesting the job positioning, I would suggest that you the take in the first two listed qualifications as one, i.e., (a) strong C / C++ / Objective-C / iPhone background preferred (with) 3-4 years of video game development experience, shipped at least one AAA title.
Apple is only looking for a "skilled software engineer who wants to work as part of a small highly motivated team to work on interactive multimedia experiences***" to be part of a small team,…" not somebody to head the department, which by the way, they already have a top notch guy fully in charge.
They'll find somebody and that person will be very happy and richer than where they are now, it things go as they usually do at corporate.
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
I think you have to take that back.
So my comment is incorrect?!?
"When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received."
Are you actually trying to tell me that WE ARE NOT seeing developers dump the iphone due to the bad treatment they have received by the App Store?!?!
If you come back with 'but its a miniscule amount' I'm going to SCREAM... Especially since I never made any claims of HOW MANY were leaving IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
All I said was this:
DEVELOPERS.. IN FACT RESPECTED MAC DEVELOPERS ARE LEAVING THE IPHONE DUE TO BAD TREATMENT THEY HAVE GOTTEN AT THE APP STORE!
Sorry for the caps but if you guys stop adding words and insinuation into what I say you'd look far less foolish.
UNLESS...
Are YOU saying that DEVELOPERS ARE NOT leaving the iPhone due to bad treatment at the App Store? Because that would be the exact OPPOSITE of my argument...
Comments
Perhaps this is why I'm so uneasy when it comes to the level of control Apple has over the iPhone and the iPod Touch (and presumably any potential tablet moving forward and maybe even the Apple TV Mark II should it ever see the light of day).
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Apple is certainly in the cat bird seat at the moment and yes for every GREAT developer who calls it quits on the iPhone there are 1000 developers who know nothing about the Mac waiting in the wings... Wonderful... but as I said above...
There was a time and it wasn't that long ago when we all believed that QUALITY was always more important that QUANTITY. Somehow we are all being told we should now think just the opposite. Well I for one won't do it.
Thanks for the clarity. My only comment on the statement that Apple is pissing off developers left and right is that while it's clear that Apple's process has rankled quite a few, majorly pissed on some and lead to a tiny handful of defections, this must be measured against two things:
1) They have a tremendous flow of new third-party apps and existing app updates to contend with on a daily basis, and managing that is non-trivial;
2) iPhone is a governed platform. As such, to pass through the "approval" gates requires some combination of protocol, systems-based process and human touch, which can be a recipe for capriciousness and some blatantly wacky scenarios.
As such, all of the active debate in the blogosphere really shines a light on areas on serious boiling points in developer universe, and in general, they seem to be listening to the community at large (some good threads in the past at Daring Fireball) so I am cautiously optimistic that they will work through the latest angst go around.
That said, it's worth sounding the collective alarm when sense is that they are crossing the line.
Isn't it great to be able to brag about QUANTITY over QUALITY...
Strange thing is... and it wasn't that long ago, we Mac users mocked Windoze users who bragged about the zillions of apps they could run and our cry was QUALITY not QUANTITY!
I wonder what changed?
The iPhone's App Store is a completely different situation. at this point in the mobile game, App QUANTITY is key to success. And everyone knows the App Store has the highest quality apps as well. There's just more of everything on the App Store.
(Oh, and in other news, Psystar just got buried, meaning they lost on all their pleadings. Game over.)
In terms of locking in consumers, the emphasis on quantity over quality, the race to the bottom pricing wise, are all things that made perfect sense for phase one of a consumer-centric platform play like this, as the "there's an app for that" meme has established, and set the bar for everyone else.
The next phase has to be about killer apps (obviously there are plenty of rocking apps, but..), verticals and breakout success companies built around the platform. Love or hate Microsoft, there were many $100M plus companies built on their platform, which is the ultimate anchor on developer loyalty. To your point, the next milestone of Apps count (150K, 200K?) in itself means less and less.
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Sidebar: my entry point into Apple was the Apple I/II at the Byte Store in Santa Monica (first PC was a TRS-80); professionally, 94-95, and the brief glimmer of hope around PowerPC then, poof, so remember too well Apple becoming rotten to the core. Hard not to celebrate their accomplishments since and want to be protective of their continued ascent. :-)
Okay we both sound like we are on a similar page... I've been a Mac fan for a very long time... SE30 days and even before that back when the OS was free and Apple was a much simpler company. To see the success that Steve has brought to Apple is nothing short of astounding.
Perhaps this is why I'm so uneasy when it comes to the level of control Apple has over the iPhone and the iPod Touch (and presumably any potential tablet moving forward and maybe even the Apple TV Mark II should it ever see the light of day).
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Apple is certainly in the cat bird seat at the moment and yes for every GREAT developer who calls it quits on the iPhone there are 1000 developers who know nothing about the Mac waiting in the wings... Wonderful... but as I said above...
There was a time and it wasn't that long ago when we all believed that QUALITY was always more important that QUANTITY. Somehow we are all being told we should now think just the opposite. Well I for one won't do it.
Be cardul u don't get sued dude.
I may have to kill my google bot first
You know the axiom about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it so nuff said there. That said, I really believe that Apple and Jobs understand PC history to the bone, which is why this iPhone play has had such a Microsoft like platform-build feel about it.
Ya know I never really looked at this in that light before... Okay... perhaps I need to let things gel a bit more before I come down so hard on the app store policies..
In terms of locking in consumers, the emphasis on quantity over quality, the race to the bottom pricing wise, are all things that made perfect sense for phase one of a consumer-centric platform play like this, as the "there's an app for that" meme has established, and set the bar for everyone else.
Yea... okay I didn't look at things that way before but I certainly see your point especially with your preceding comment.
The next phase has to be about killer apps (obviously there are plenty of rocking apps, but..), verticals and breakout success companies built around the platform. Love or hate Microsoft, there were many $100M plus companies built on their platform, which is the ultimate anchor on developer loyalty. To your point, the next milestone of Apps count (150K, 200K?) in itself means less and less.
Ah but I was in this industry since the very beginning and while many killer companys built their fortunes on the coat tails of Microsoft... one by one Microsoft came back and ate their BREAKFAST, LUNCH AND DINNER...
We both know who I'm speaking of (in no particular order)...
Wordperfect Corporation, Ashton-Tate Corporation, Lotus, Borland International, Banyan Systems, Novel Corporation... and I could go on but we all know that each and every one fell on the sword known as Microsoft... Giants in their day and barely a footnote in history not 20 years later. The only company that escaped a similar fate was Quicken Corporation... and I was at a COMDEX lunch hosted by Quicken when they announced the proposed buy out... but then if I'm not mistaken a federal judge stuck his nose in due in part (i think) to Quickens ties to the banking systems.. anyway...
It will certainly be interesting to see if things play out in a similar way this time with Apple holding the sword... The only change I see is the world has seen MS 'in action' and I'm not sure they'd let another one pull the same kinda stunts but as you said above... "... those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it ..."
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Can't argue with that... in fact you might call me a poster child for one of those sides
Sidebar: my entry point into Apple was the Apple I/II at the Byte Store in Santa Monica (first PC was a TRS-80); professionally, 94-95, and the brief glimmer of hope around PowerPC then, poof, so remember too well Apple becoming rotten to the core. Hard not to celebrate their accomplishments since and want to be protective of their continued ascent. :-)
Okay so we clearly have similar roots thats for sure... I actually started with a PDP11 and then a Pet CBM hey it was a computer WITH a built in monitor! (no dumb-terminal necessary) then I played with the Vic/C-64 fun times for sure... then came my FIRST $440 phone bill... hey who knew those modem calls to Canadian BBS cost so much... I worked every bit of that bill off and then proceeded to do it several more times... Yea I was hooked and then started building 'XTs' and then TURBO-XTs... lol
I guess my feeling of Apple developers are a dying breed mentality hasn't gone away (from the bad-old-days) but even so I simply don't like the idea that quality developers with GREAT software (and ideas) that have a long history with Apple thru lots of really hard times are now (of all times) turning their back on Apple not because they can't make money and are defecting to Windows but instead due to crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store.
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
P.S. Even an unconfirmed list would be ok. Or 'any' developer. With or without GREAT software (or ideas).
What on earth are you talking about... I said '3-4 years experience needs to be read as THIS IS AN ENTRY LEVEL POSITION and someone of lets say John Carmack's caliber (or any other highly compensated game developer) shouldn't be applying because the job requirements do not INVITE them to apply. Would you expect a world renowned brain surgeon to apply for a hospital intern position? Yet some how you go off in left field with this:
3-4 years is the minimum requirement, not the max. It's a entry to mid level position not a pure entry level one.
I never said that and it has nothing to do with my post... All I said was 3-4 years experience as a job requirement screams SUPERSTARS need not apply.
Some fresh outs are superstars. I would think that like Google and MS you have to be pretty good to work at Apple. These will be cream of the crop...some might call them superstars.
Fair enough... I lack the background in game development to refute your claims.. If you're saying that looking for a developer who INITIALLY had 0-1 years gaming experience was immediately put on to a AAA rated game project (that shipped) and then somewhere in years 3 or 4 got burned out and wants to move not to anther game developer but instead Apple then OKAY.
First, 3-4 years is the minimum requirement. You will find many senior slots with the requirement of "at least 4 years".
Second, yes, there are quite a few folks that start out of school at a larger studio that only has AAA titles.
And third, if you do a job search n Gamasutra for a dev position with 4 years experience "worked on at least one published title" is commonly listed as a qualification.
Okay... but doesn't it give you the slightest bit of pause that with people of the caliber you speak about above that Apple would need to be posting help wanted ADs in the first place?
No. Everybody posts job apps...from Activision to Vicarious Visions, to Bungie to Microsoft Game to any studio you care to name. Since you don't have the background to "refute" what I say why do you feel the need to criticize at all as opposed to ask why Apple is doing this?
You would think that with their backgrounds in the field and their reputations they would know more than enough people that could fill the position without putting up a 'HELP WANTED' sign in the front window of 1 Infinite Loop Drive?
Yes, and they will hire folks they know to be good. But many will be unavailable and it's typically not good to poach from your old company. Your characterization is still negative despite the fact you're nearly completely ignorant about the subject.
As to the rest... you've gone far beyond what my comment was about and it was simply this:
Looking for a game developer with 3-4 years experience who as ALSO been personally involved in the release of a AAA rated game was not unlike a movie studio putting up a help wanted ad for an actor or actress with 3-4 years of industry experience who was also personally involved in an 'Summer Blockbuster' or say Academy Award Winning movie.
It's like a movie studio putting up a job position that requires 3-4 years experience in movie production and personally involved in a Summer Blockbuster as his first job. There are lots of folks that fit that category. My cousin fit that category when he first started when he worked sound on the final credits for a summer blockbuster (the guy has golden ears and a natural talent...he got scarfed up by Skywalker Sound). Many new developers will have a similar kind of experience: developing tools, doing a specific animation or effect (I knew one guy, also just starting out that worked 6 months on nothing but a flame effect) or menus or other component of a AAA title.
There's also a good number of actors that fit that category too. Just not in leading roles although even there you find a few. There are a few actors that have won an academy award on their debut performance.
You turn around and tell me that it's quite common then okay...
I don't need to "tell" you. I've pointed you at the links. Here's another...the search for 4 years experience required for a software dev from Gamasutra.
http://bit.ly/2su8k
But hey, if you prefer, you can continue in your ignorance and appear the fool. All the same to me and actually more entertaining the second way.
You know the axiom about those who forget the past being doomed to repeat it so nuff said there. That said, I really believe that Apple and Jobs understand PC history to the bone, which is why this iPhone play has had such a Microsoft like platform-build feel about it.
In what way? There's little beyond a superficial similarity and there are fundamental differences. Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
The closest point of comparison is with MS's Xbox. Which isn't a PC and has significantly different dynamics to the PC market.
As to the unease, the truth is that there is nothing squishy, warm-feeling about the WAY Apple builds products, but lots of magic around the net out. They seem destined to dance the line between benevolence and dictatorship, which is what makes Apple lovers and haters so impassioned about them.
Gee, you think that apple might be striving for a benevolent dictatorship. Oh wait, that's exactly what they strive for and for the most part succeed at. There's no "dancing" between the two as if they are some kind of polar opposites.
Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
I would like to contest that statement.
As evidenced in many countries, the iPhone is available by a number of competing companies.
Their ability to become a vendor was predicated on the fact that they meet certain qualifications, e.g., as per the following:
- A GSM network
- Decrease the costs of their existing data plans
- Commit to improving and expanding their wireless network, and in particular 3G
- Provide visual voicemail
A list of which some companies could not or would not agree to.I have a very good friend that has a GM dealership. Unfortunately, of the two vehicles I want to buy, he can't sell me a model made by the competitive car manufacturer or even one from another division of GM. I don't begrudge him or his organization. And we are still friends.
I would like to contest that statement.
single vendor as in only Apple makes the iphone. Unlike the winmob or android or windows model.
Apple's iPhone dev/platform model is closest IMHO to ms's xna/xbox model than any other model in ms' portfolio
But hey, if you prefer, you can continue in your ignorance and appear the fool. All the same to me and actually more entertaining the second way.
I said I agreed with you and you still call me a fool?!?!
What a piece of work...
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
P.S. Even an unconfirmed list would be ok. Or 'any' developer. With or without GREAT software (or ideas).
Sorry you totally misunderstood...
I was speaking of Apple's entire history and its ups and downs... and at one time WE APPLE USERS would hear news that ABC isn't developing for Mac OS any longer because it wasn't profitable and they continued to pursue their Windows projects. This is very much ancient history now... none the less it was quite sad news to hear...
Now with that in mind...
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
More clear?
Sorry you totally misunderstood...
No he didn't.
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
More clear?
He wants you to provide a source to show that there are many devs leaving apple because of bad treatment.
More clear?
Flash forward 18-36 months from today, and you could see a market where what a mobile device is amounts to is four 'legs' - phone, media, apps platform, carrier/service network, and Android OEMs are now on their 3rd/4th revs and so for all intents of purposes they have gotten the core functionality and the core user experience down to the point that it's iPhone enough-like (or more likely have carved out their own unique 'IT').
Now all of this assumes that the Android platform doesn't fragment across self-interested handset makers and carriers, but if it hasn't, you could readily see a case where third-party R&D shifts to the high volume, multi-handset play (and the legions of ODMs popping up around it), or at least spreads their loyalties.
In fact, one of the best sections of the book 'Apple' by Jim Carlton is when Dan Eilers is in Taiwan and sees accessory maker after accessory maker building third party subsystem add ons for the PC. It's at that moment that he realizes that there is no way that Apple can match the R&D spend of a broader, engaged third party R&D engine that extends way beyond Microsoft.
Today, the choice for developers is relatively clear, and the hardware play is largely limited to a few biggies. That could readily change, which would be PC-like. I think the difference though is that the performance expectations are higher with a mobile device, and closer to what one expects in embedded systems, which takes a deeper level of integration. Plus, if any one android form factor takes off, I expect developers to focus on that specific handset, which leads to fragmentation.
As to the benevolent dictator, and not being able to have it both ways, I think that Apple needs developers engaged, and knows how quickly the tide can turn on that one. Consumers are happy to be bullied for a better end experience. Developers care about the platform working as promised and reach/dollars, not in that order.
In what way? There's little beyond a superficial similarity and there are fundamental differences. Like the fact that the iPhone is a single vendor hardware item tightly controlled by Apple.
The closest point of comparison is with MS's Xbox. Which isn't a PC and has significantly different dynamics to the PC market.
Gee, you think that apple might be striving for a benevolent dictatorship. Oh wait, that's exactly what they strive for and for the most part succeed at. There's no "dancing" between the two as if they are some kind of polar opposites.
I said I agreed with you and you still call me a fool?!?!
What a piece of work...
Your agreement seemed sarcastic. And you continued to question why they couldn't just find folks via personal contacts.
I'd normally apologize but your writing was really unclear in your "agreement".
Your agreement seemed sarcastic. And you continued to question why they couldn't just find folks via personal contacts.
I'd normally apologize but your writing was really unclear in your "agreement".
Fair enough... and yea guilty as charged... I do tend to fall comfortably into sarcasm every now and again... but you clearly are more involved with the industry then I am no doubt about it.
So, in my least snarky way possible... :
Okay... I submit to your higher authority I was simply going by what I knew about the basic 'business' hiring practices when used for hiring IT folks and such clearly not the same.
No he didn't. He wants you to provide a source to show that there are many devs leaving apple because of bad treatment. More clear?
More clear?!!?!?
READ THIS!
Could you provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers who have turned their back on Apple and are defecting to Windows because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store?
To help you understand...
- Could you (that would be ME)
- provide a confirmed list of 'quality' Apple developers (yes I can list LOTS of them)
- who have turned their back on Apple (oh well okay yes I still can list some)
- and are defecting to Windows (okay)
- because of the crappy treatment they've had to endure with the App Store? (NO!)
NO I CAN NOT LIST ANY APPLE DEVELOPERS WHO HAVE WENT TO WINDOWS DUE TO CRAPPY TREATMENT THE GOT FROM THE APP STORE!
Oh the other hand I NEVER said there were any....
What I said was developers ARE DROPPING SUPPORT FOR THE IPHONE DUE TO CRAPPY TREATMENT!
Just read any non-biased computer news site you can find lots of them but the NEWEST is the developer from Rogue Amoeba (not respectable enough for ya??!?!) oh and 2 days before that the lead developer responsible for the iPhone Twitter App... Another crappy developer I guess?!?!
And here not that you'd get anything from reading it... You'd have to remove those blinders and rose colored glasses:
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...velopers_away/
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
I think you have to take that back.
I don't thing there are more than a handful that would admit that.
Recently, there has been much here said about how John Carmak having issues with the App Store and yet, according to CNBC* and Macworld†, it is not true.
Then there is Tom Richmond and his problems** getting his app Bobble Rep-111th Congress Edition through, certainly has frustrated him immensely. However, I don't think he is going to stop programming for Apple. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if when (and he will) gets it approved, his problem, like a lot of developers have will be that nobody really cares enough to either buy it or use it, if they do, no more than a couple of times.
As I have tried to point our a number of times, the rejection rate is miniscule. Apparently, nearly a quarter of a million apps have been submitted or updated to date. At the current rate of nearly 9-10 thousand new or updated apps being submitted weekly, it sometimes just takes a little more time.
If anybody that has gone to the annual Dev conferences or attended any of their international or University programming sessions, the attitude towards Apple is far from that seen here.
One other thing. For those contesting the job positioning, I would suggest that you the take in the first two listed qualifications as one, i.e., (a) strong C / C++ / Objective-C / iPhone background preferred (with) 3-4 years of video game development experience, shipped at least one AAA title.
Apple is only looking for a "skilled software engineer who wants to work as part of a small highly motivated team to work on interactive multimedia experiences***" to be part of a small team,…" not somebody to head the department, which by the way, they already have a top notch guy fully in charge.
They'll find somebody and that person will be very happy and richer than where they are now, it things go as they usually do at corporate.
* http://www.macworld.com/article/1438...mack_doom.html
† http://www.cnbc.com/id/33721096/site/14081545
** http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10394265-17.htm
*** http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=...&CurrentPage=2
When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received.
I think you have to take that back.
So my comment is incorrect?!?
"When TODAY we hear about developers dumping the iPhone platform it isn't due to the reasons we where accustom to hearing in days gone by... "Moving to Windows, Mac OS isn't profitable' but instead it was because of the bad treatment they received."
Are you actually trying to tell me that WE ARE NOT seeing developers dump the iphone due to the bad treatment they have received by the App Store?!?!
If you come back with 'but its a miniscule amount' I'm going to SCREAM... Especially since I never made any claims of HOW MANY were leaving IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
All I said was this:
DEVELOPERS.. IN FACT RESPECTED MAC DEVELOPERS ARE LEAVING THE IPHONE DUE TO BAD TREATMENT THEY HAVE GOTTEN AT THE APP STORE!
Sorry for the caps but if you guys stop adding words and insinuation into what I say you'd look far less foolish.
UNLESS...
Are YOU saying that DEVELOPERS ARE NOT leaving the iPhone due to bad treatment at the App Store? Because that would be the exact OPPOSITE of my argument...
So ARE YOU SAYING THAT?!?!