Serious question: Does this place have a high troll count compared to.....
An Apple fan-related site that has the initials of MR?
I'm asking because lately the *other* place seems void of intelligent conversation, and more about flamewars about who's opinion is more right than the other, etc.
There's also a huge amount of Windows-only users on the site now trolling Ad nauseam about how Windows machines are cheaper, more variety, etc.
I'm not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism, nor that Windows is horrible (I use both myself), but the mindless bashing does indeed get old after awhile.
So with that, I am on to find a discussion forum a bit more productive and enjoyable to be a part of.
Thoughts?
I'm asking because lately the *other* place seems void of intelligent conversation, and more about flamewars about who's opinion is more right than the other, etc.
There's also a huge amount of Windows-only users on the site now trolling Ad nauseam about how Windows machines are cheaper, more variety, etc.
I'm not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism, nor that Windows is horrible (I use both myself), but the mindless bashing does indeed get old after awhile.
So with that, I am on to find a discussion forum a bit more productive and enjoyable to be a part of.
Thoughts?
Comments
An Apple fan-related site that has the initials of MR?
I'm asking because lately the *other* place seems void of intelligent conversation, and more about flamewars about who's opinion is more right than the other, etc.
There's also a huge amount of Windows-only users on the site now trolling Ad nauseam about how Windows machines are cheaper, more variety, etc.
I'm not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism, nor that Windows is horrible (I use both myself), but the mindless bashing does indeed get old after awhile.
So with that, I am on to find a discussion forum a bit more productive and enjoyable to be a part of.
Thoughts?
I post only sparingly on MR because of the low signal to noise ratio there. Typically a topic will be posted and within minutes its over one hundred responses. Reading through becomes tedious because of the childishness that goes on. You can literally read a couple hundred posts and think "I've only read like 3 decent or insightful postings in the whole lot"
AI is definitely not like that. We have some pundits here but they actually own Apple products (or at least they claim to).
I post only sparingly on MR because of the low signal to noise ratio there. Typically a topic will be posted and within minutes its over one hundred responses. Reading through becomes tedious because of the childishness that goes on. You can literally read a couple hundred posts and think "I've only read like 3 decent or insightful postings in the whole lot"
AI is definitely not like that. We have some pundits here but they actually own Apple products (or at least they claim to).
That would be refreshing indeed. Again, no company is infallible, not even Apple. But it's reached ridiculous heights there, and I'm rather over it. There's also ZERO moderator presence, which I feel contributes to it. If there was more presence, every thread wouldn't degrade to a geek pissing contest.
Anyway, I'll stick around here for awhile. Thanks for the response!
I've always felt that Macintosh discussion should be balanced but trolling needs to be kept at a minimum.
We're routinely informed that Mac users are constantly making enemies by being smug little shits that wander the earth stroking their iPods and MacBooks, hanging out in poser cafes, or just generally never missing an opportunity to drone on about how cool they are for choosing one platform over another.
But I never see these mythical Mac users show up in force on PC discussion sites. On tech enthusiast sites, comments on various pieces of gear might elicit one or two "should have got a Mac" remarks, and these are promptly torn to pieces as by a pack of wild dogs.
Any and all items on Apple gear, however, will be besieged with sneering contempt and the kind of ferocity that suggests that Apple makes some people psychotically furious just by existing.
For all the talk of the failings of Apple enthusiasts, my experience suggests that it's the Apple haters that really have a problem.
Welcome aboard mate.
I've always felt that Macintosh discussion should be balanced but trolling needs to be kept at a minimum.
I agree completely, and thanks for the welcome
It's interesting, isn't it, that anywhere more than two people gather to talk about Apple, there will be belligerent, taunting PC users, shrieking "Fan boy! Fan boy!"
I think it's the nature of the internet. The very fact that it provides a sort of anonymity that face to face conversation doesn't allow for has the tendency to bring the worst out in some people.
We're routinely informed that Mac users are constantly making enemies by being smug little shits that wander the earth stroking their iPods and MacBooks, hanging out in poser cafes, or just generally never missing an opportunity to drone on about how cool they are for choosing one platform over another.
But I never see these mythical Mac users show up in force on PC discussion sites. On tech enthusiast sites, comments on various pieces of gear might elicit one or two "should have got a Mac" remarks, and these are promptly torn to pieces as by a pack of wild dogs.
I frequent Sharkys boards, and it's pretty calm over there in that regard. Any pro-Apple conversation is met with perhaps a bit of apprehension, but nothing over the top.
Any and all items on Apple gear, however, will be besieged with sneering contempt and the kind of ferocity that suggests that Apple makes some people psychotically furious just by existing.
For all the talk of the failings of Apple enthusiasts, my experience suggests that it's the Apple haters that really have a problem.
It's Steve's fault, damnit. He had to make the friggin' Apple on the lid glow, to draw even more attention!
I have no idea what that's about-- the need to turn people's purchasing choices into a semi-insane take on their character, based entirely on specious imaginings. "Oh hey, you eat Cheerios? Get away from me, you pompous, crypto-homosexual asshole!"
Today is a different time. I see Apple products everywhere and the youngest generation growing up views Apple as another choice in computing along with Linux and Windows.
We no longer have to care or oversell our platform of choice. I support HP products and I'm a fan of HP (I have a color laserjet, recommended a color laserjet for my mother etc) and thus I feel comfortable supporting the brand but it's a bit odd sometimes because some of my colleagues will descend into Apple Bashing. The latest was "Apple users are brainwashed".
Why?
Because we put value on aesthetics "and" performance? One could easily state that vast majority of PC users have been brainwashed by Microsoft and Retailers into thinking that a PC is the standard that they "must" have.
I have no problems with someone choosing a PC over a Mac but at least try to be informed. I'm still hearing the "Macs are good for graphics" mantra. What is this 1995 again?
Today I spoke with another colleague who was slamming Apple because the iPod/iPhone doesn't have replaceable batteries. I kind of chuckled because I too bought into the "it's gotta have removable batteries" thing too until I thought about it and I've never bought a secondary battery for my phone or any laptop I've ever had. In both cases the money for a second battery later on in the products life was then deemed better saved for a new replacement.
Apple doesn't always bet correctly but I admire than they are willing to say "enough is enough" and drop things like floppy or legacy (slow) ports. Yes ..we scream and howl but once we refresh our equipment we see why Apple made the decisions they made.
An Apple fan-related site that has the initials of MR?
I'm asking because lately the *other* place seems void of intelligent conversation, and more about flamewars about who's opinion is more right than the other, etc.
There's also a huge amount of Windows-only users on the site now trolling Ad nauseam about how Windows machines are cheaper, more variety, etc.
I'm not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism, nor that Windows is horrible (I use both myself), but the mindless bashing does indeed get old after awhile.
So with that, I am on to find a discussion forum a bit more productive and enjoyable to be a part of.
Thoughts?
You're up against a certain Teckstud on these here forums. So... a bit more productive and enjoyable here at AppleInsider? YMMV. I'm no perfect forum-er but, well, take a browse around and you'll see some master trolls at work. I stopped visiting Macrumors about 2 years ago because there were just way, way to many posts to read.
A thread discussing something interesting usually degenerates into Apple is this-that-blah-blah-blah and then the Apple defenders also get attacked, the "attackers" citing "oh where's your proof, glossy kills me, you're this-and-that"...
I mean, I do some work for an Apple reseller... For work and most life stuff I use my Macbook Alu but I do enjoy my home PC with ATI Radeon 4830 512MB OC'ed on AMD 7750 Kuma OC'ed etc. etc. etc. (I don't need to go on...)... for quite impressive 1080p gaming on quite a budget.
Why can't we have reasonable conversations and take each thing on its merits or lack of, like I said, in a reasonable way.
The same poster saying negative things constantly like a broken record (you know of whom I talk about) without contributing anything significant to a thread needs to be given more severe warning.
"You're either a slamboy or a fanboy" is just not a good feeling here. Most people use Apple and non-Apple stuff, most forum users are probably more interested in discussing the details and benefits, disadvantages of this stuff. Rather than discussing why someone has taken a particular "pro-Apple" or "anti-Apple" stance.
To be honest reading the comments on Tomshardware or Anandtech has been more fulfilling, as well as the reviews and comments on overclocking/ PC hardware enthusiast sites... I am interested in hardware, I just need Windows7 64bit and the hardware drivers to just do its job and run the game smooth, and Firefox, and that's all I need on a PC.
The Mac vs PC wars ended years ago, some people think they are still fighting it. Kinda like the "war on drugs".
Being a Mac user today is different than being one in say 1998. Back then we really had to proselytize the platform and that's where the "smugness" came from IMO. We were always looking to show how the Mac was superior to Windows.
Today is a different time. I see Apple products everywhere and the youngest generation growing up views Apple as another choice in computing along with Linux and Windows.
We no longer have to care or oversell our platform of choice. I support HP products and I'm a fan of HP (I have a color laserjet, recommended a color laserjet for my mother etc) and thus I feel comfortable supporting the brand but it's a bit odd sometimes because some of my colleagues will descend into Apple Bashing. The latest was "Apple users are brainwashed".
Why?
Because we put value on aesthetics "and" performance? One could easily state that vast majority of PC users have been brainwashed by Microsoft and Retailers into thinking that a PC is the standard that they "must" have.
I have no problems with someone choosing a PC over a Mac but at least try to be informed. I'm still hearing the "Macs are good for graphics" mantra. What is this 1995 again?
Today I spoke with another colleague who was slamming Apple because the iPod/iPhone doesn't have replaceable batteries. I kind of chuckled because I too bought into the "it's gotta have removable batteries" thing too until I thought about it and I've never bought a secondary battery for my phone or any laptop I've ever had. In both cases the money for a second battery later on in the products life was then deemed better saved for a new replacement.
Apple doesn't always bet correctly but I admire than they are willing to say "enough is enough" and drop things like floppy or legacy (slow) ports. Yes ..we scream and howl but once we refresh our equipment we see why Apple made the decisions they made.
An Apple fan-related site that has the initials of MR?
I'm asking because lately the *other* place seems void of intelligent conversation, and more about flamewars about who's opinion is more right than the other, etc.
There's also a huge amount of Windows-only users on the site now trolling Ad nauseam about how Windows machines are cheaper, more variety, etc.
I'm not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism, nor that Windows is horrible (I use both myself), but the mindless bashing does indeed get old after awhile.
So with that, I am on to find a discussion forum a bit more productive and enjoyable to be a part of.
Thoughts?
Trust me, it isn't only the "windows crowd" that adds to the situation. There are those who take the Mac way too seriously to a point where even the smallest criticism or difference of opinion is some kind intolerable heresy
What I'm saying is it goes both ways. Sometimes a troll is only a troll when someone makes that first call. Then everybody else jumps on. Maybe the whole idea of a 'troll' needs to be more limited.
Sometimes I wonder if the people shouting 'troll' are any better than the trolls themselves.
From my 1 week here, I've never seen a board where people label others as trolls as quickly. I brought up a discussion, involving Zune's, and immediately it dissolved into troll calling and personal attacks.
What I'm saying is it goes both ways. Sometimes a troll is only a troll when someone makes that first call. Then everybody else jumps on. Maybe the whole idea of a 'troll' needs to be more limited.
Sometimes I wonder if the people shouting 'troll' are any better than the trolls themselves.
OK... I saw the thing you and tonton got into in the "Best laptop..." thread. I don't think tonton reacted in the best way initially. However, you did say in the Zune HD thread very quickly, "So i'll take that as a no. A resounding " No, I only buy electronics with bitten pomaceous fruits branded on their surfaces."
Trust me, it isn't only the "windows crowd" that adds to the situation. There are those who take the Mac way too seriously to a point where even the smallest criticism or difference of opinion is some kind intolerable heresy
Yeah, that's not really true. It's a popular straw man of the Mac bashing crowd, however.
Consider also that there is a fundamental difference between people being enthusiastic about their platform of choice, on a web site aimed at exactly these people, and people who want to explain why such people are stupid, wrong, delusional, etc.
The idea that, on Apple Insider, people who think Apple users are jackasses and people who get irritated by that idea are somehow two sides of the same coin is ridiculous, IMO.
I'm not apologetic for liking Apple gear. I don't think I should have to preface posts saying so "I'm no fanboy, but...." because there's some subset of lunatics that can't sleep at night if they know that Apple users are having a conversation unmonitored and unmocked.
Why in God's name is it necessary to constantly call people out for being Apple partisans on an Apple website? Sure, being an "Apple partisan" isn't some kind of attainment or winning characteristic, but so what? That's why people seek out like minded groups.
Do you imagine that on, say, a Subaru enthusiast site, there's a lot of Mazda drivers constantly rolling their eyes? And if there were, wouldn't you think such Mazda drivers were nuts?
Do you imagine that on, say, a Subaru enthusiast site, there's a lot of Mazda drivers constantly rolling their eyes? And if there were, wouldn't you think such Mazda drivers were nuts?
This is one of the most obvious peculiarities of this business. I've never entirely understood it, but I do know that it was abetted by the tech media for a long time. It's not nearly so bad now as it was ten years ago, IMO.
Another MR refugee here. I was an active participant in their forums for a long long time, but finally had to throw in the towel. In theory, the MR forums are more actively moderated than AI seems to be. But in reality, the MR forum moderation is not even-handed, so often this is worse than nothing. This became a steadily larger problem when the member base exploded a few years ago. There was no plan to cope with it as far as I could see.
This is one of the most obvious peculiarities of this business. I've never entirely understood it, but I do know that it was abetted by the tech media for a long time. It's not nearly so bad now as it was ten years ago, IMO.
Very true, but, oddly, it seems as Apple sheds its "maniacal little cult of case fondlers" rep in the tech press, that very attitude has grown somewhat on this site, over the last few years.
Others have speculated that that phenomena arises from the iPhone, with a number of posters who wouldn't use a Mac if you put a gun to their head who nevertheless use and enjoy the iPhone. Such folks are at pains to maintain their "not one of those people" status, so they may be motivated to go out of their way to attack what they perceive as excessive Mac loyalty.
There's also a certain type of Mac user that is worried about being lumped in with "those people", so they are quick to distance themselves from unalloyed enthusiasm for the platform.
I'm vaguely weirded out by how some of this seems determined to play out, in trivial miniature, certain aspects of racial and religious identification, complete with majoritarian bullying and the concept of "passing." Really, way too much freight for the minor pleasure of choosing and using computers.
I'm vaguely weirded out by how some of this seems determined to play out, in trivial miniature, certain aspects of racial and religious identification, complete with majoritarian bullying and the concept of "passing." Really, way too much freight for the minor pleasure of choosing and using computers.
No kidding. A number of years ago it occurred to me that computers were crowding out cars in the material self-expression department. Not so long ago, people were very loyal to car brands. My grandfather was a Pontiac man, for instance. He never owned anything else. The car brand you bought said something about who you were, or who you aspired to be.
As far as Apple is concerned, the mix of customers has certainly changed, beginning with the iPod, and ever more so with the iPhone. It's not a little club of diehard Mac users anymore, but that's okay with me. I'll accept the overzealous complainers as the price of success.
...Others have speculated that that phenomena arises from the iPhone, with a number of posters who wouldn't use a Mac if you put a gun to their head who nevertheless use and enjoy the iPhone. Such folks are at pains to maintain their "not one of those people" status, so they may be motivated to go out of their way to attack what they perceive as excessive Mac loyalty...
This is 99% of the core of the issue. You really smashed the nail on the head there. iPhone users and the explosion of iPhone-related sites, news, etc. iPod users of course, were this crowd and still are, to some degree...
But the iPhone users and iPod users that "troll" Mac sites want to do exactly what you said -- prove to gawd knows who, that they haven't become "Apple fags".
Another MR refugee here... the member base exploded a few years ago...
Yeah about 3 years ago it totally became huge and that's when I switched to primarily AppleInsider. Just way, way too many comments to wade through. Insanity.
Yeah about 3 years ago it totally became huge and that's when I switched to primarily AppleInsider. Just way, way too many comments to wade through. Insanity.
I think they were taken surprise by the growth, and had no plan to manage it. The moderation became spotty and arbitrary. I offered to help a number of times but was told "we have it under control," though obviously they didn't have it under control. Probably still don't. Lots of long-term members walked.