FYI, Verizon seems to be ahead of AT&T in deploying LTE and should have several major metropolitan areas online by the end of next year.
Verizon has to be ahead of AT&T and T-Mobile with LTE because investing in EVDO Rev. B is a fruitless endeavour. Sprint jumped the gun with ?4G? and invested in WiMAX, which we now see is a foolish move. Verizon is smartly going for LTE, but AT&T and T-Mo can wait as HSPA has barely gotten off the ground and the theroectial limits are many, many years from reaching their peaks.
We now only have 7.2Mbps HSDPA with no HSUPA in the iPhone. There is so much more that can go into that ?3G? before it?s a requirement for the rest of the world like it is for CDMA-based networks. Some carriers outside the US were smart enough to see the problems continuing with Qualcomm?s CDMA so they have a hybrid CDMA/3GSM network already.
Quote:
Discounted by who? If they use the Qualcomm chip set all of this is totally possible.
I don?t agree agree that it?s ?totally possible.? The chip exists but I?ve seen no evidence that the chip is the same size or smaller than the current module plus radios used in the 3GS or that it uses the equivalent power so that the 3GS can have the same size battery without losing talk time.
Then there is a price issue, not just for the chip costs, but the licensing fees. I?ve read that Qualcomm charges 5.7% of the device?s revenue for using their tech, which is why a competing network was developed using only some of their patents.
As it stands now it looks like Apple would have to make a larger, heavier iPhone to handle the additional HW and larger battery , that would cost more or risk profit margins to make this device. The latter seems doable if the sales are high enough (which I think they would be), but the former doesn?t seem to be part of Apple?s DNA. I think adding the additional band IV 1700MHz spectrum for T-Mobile 3G compatibility is the simplest solution and therefore the most likely at this point.
I would say that when Apple moves away from a single carrier plan, then they could totally make the iPhone available to all carriers in the U.S.; including AT&T, VZ, Sprint-Nextel, and T-Mobile. That's over 100 million customers using CDMA. I think it would totally worth the investment. As for GSM... There's no need to discuss that as the rest of the world is on it.
As the article states add-ons should be big for the iPhone/Touch in 2010 and I'm sure that's correct. Apple has much still left to accomplish on the iPhone OS. More business features, augmented reality API, mapping API, a productivity suite etc.
If Apple put iWork on the iPhone I'm sure that would cause them to beef-up the iPhone SDK.
I still can't see the logic in Apple spending millions and increasing the costs of their handsets worldwide, just to access another phone network in a country where they already have access to a network.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.
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I do not see Apple opening the iPhone up to Verizon in 2010. Even if Qualcom has such a chip, it will get a significant amount of testing first. I see Apple opening up on T-Mobile before Verizon. Further, T-Mobile will appreciate the offer more, and AT&T will not be as hostile to the move.
they are basing this solely on subscriber numbers.
and the rumors about the dual gsm/cdma are not only just rumors but they could be for the alleged tablet. having that on both types unlocked so folks can just add data to whatever they have is a perfect gateway into Mac for switchers.
People think this is such a great thing, but Verizon is not the answer to AT&T's problems. If you are unhappy on AT&T with your iPhone, and think Verizon will be your saving grace, look at what you get to pay for the Droid on Verizon.
$99.99 a month, and Data access for email. Specifically email. Unlimited text, video, and picture messaging. But no other data access is included in this price. 450 minutes, too.
Add $30 for 5Gb of data otherwise. Visual Voicemail? Another $2.99. Total per month before fees is $132.98.
When Apple in a TV Commercial here in US asked "Can your Network do that?" it was in regard to Voice and Date Simultaneously! If VZ can't deliver that, than it cripples iPhone, and why would Apple want that...?
If you're in an area with poor AT&T coverage you may get no voice or data so if you get one of the two on Verizon that's a net gain isn't it? If Apple is going to use one of these hybrid LTE/CDMA/GSM chipsets Verizon could offer data on LTE, voice on CDMA. Verizon is building LTE as a parallel network to CDMA so within the next 2 years it's likely many people will have access to both. CDMA is going to be around for another 5-10 years.
I still can't see the logic in Apple spending millions and increasing the costs of their handsets worldwide, just to access another phone network in a country where they already have access to a network.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.
The logic is that Verizon still has nearly 100 million customers, MANY of which have only one reason to not have the iPhone - that it is only on ATT and they absolutely positively will not let go of Verizon. Apple would make plenty of money selling to 10% of those 100 million - 10 million times $500 per phone = 5 billion in revenue, and likely around 2.5 billion in profit that they otherwise have no chance of getting. See it now?
The logic is that Verizon still has nearly 100 million customers, MANY of which have only one reason to not have the iPhone - that it is only on ATT and they absolutely positively will not let go of Verizon. Apple would make plenty of money selling to 10% of those 100 million - 10 million times $500 per phone = 5 billion in revenue, and likely around 2.5 billion in profit that they otherwise have no chance of getting. See it now?
I'd rather see Apple take its growth opportunities a nibble at a time -- maybe with an occasional snack thrown in -- that in one big bite!
Verizon and China Mobile are basically the two gargantuan bites left for Apple, and I'd be perfectly happy if the company took its sweet time.
If you're in an area with poor AT&T coverage you may get no voice or data so if you get one of the two on Verizon that's a net gain isn't it? If Apple is going to use one of these hybrid LTE/CDMA/GSM chipsets Verizon could offer data on LTE, voice on CDMA. Verizon is building LTE as a parallel network to CDMA so within the next 2 years it's likely many people will have access to both. CDMA is going to be around for another 5-10 years.
Excellent point, but... It'll be a while before Verizon has LTE everywhere, so that they legitimately claim Voice or Data capability! By then ATT will probably improve their overall Network...
Besides Voice or Data, it's ATT's Rollover Minutes, and this TV commercial http://bit.ly/73npfO illustrated that advantage very well. And, like I mentioned before, if Carriers start Limiting Data, will they have Rollover MBs or GBs!?
It seems like VZ did enough damage to on the PR front, getting people to believe that their Network is better! But I doubt that VZ will be able to milk that forever! Their Network was never really tested by iPhone type of demand, as was ATT, thus to it's foolish to assume that VZ is some kind of Savior in waiting, and once iPhone is on VZ it's perfect! I doubt it'd be as simple as that! Realistically, if iPhones were to be split between more than one US Carrier, everyone's iPhone would work better! But to prove the VZ The Savior Theory TODAY, one would have to switch ALL iPhones from ATT over night, or at least add the exact number of iPhones that ATT has to VZ. Then it'd be a fair way to see which Network does better, if the number of iPhones, or and Data Phones on both Networks is identical...
Right now it's easy for VZ make fun of ATT, cause they know that won't have ATT's Number of iPhones on VZ overnight... It also deflect the attention from VZ not having Rollover minutes until that ATT TV commercial http://bit.ly/73npfO sinks into public's mind as deeply as VZ's adds!
There are lots of good points made on this thread, but none of us have the info that Apple has, thus we can only speculate! One thing's for sure, Apple is driving the Cell Industry in a big way worldwide, and that is only to grow bigger! Of course all us will be impatient throughout this ongoing process...
don't tell the koreans that there is no cdma service anywhere but the usa. if their service was available in the usa, verizon would be in the icu room at the hospital. korea is head and shoulders above every country in quality and service for cell phones. and korea is cdma.
china also has a small amount of cdma service.
also, if apple could manage to move from ibm computer chips to intel chips without skipping a beat, cdma is also doable if they so desire. the other cell phone manufacturers shudder every time apple announces some nondescript idea and the nay sayers start yelling droid droid, but not as loud lately.
don't tell the koreans that there is no cdma service anywhere but the usa. if their service was available in the usa, verizon would be in the icu room at the hospital. korea is head and shoulders above every country in quality and service for cell phones. and korea is cdma.
S. Korea has CDMA for 2G, but mostly uses 3GSM for 3G. Only LG Telecom has EVDO Rev. A for 3G and they only account for about 8M subs.
Quote:
china also has a small amount of cdma service.
Small for China, but China Telecom has about 50M subs. Still, if Apple was going to make a non-3GSM phone for China it would likely be for China Mobile?s GSM/TD-SCDMA with about 510M subs.
Final decision on Verizon or not depends upon how much control Verizon wants.
If they want their own App Store and crippled phones, like they do with others, then No Deal.
If they want the current Apple model extended to Verizon, then Deal.
Apple is a game-changer. They'd like Verizon, but they don't *need* Verizon. Current scenario has made that very clear. Verizon is a carrier. A big one to be sure, but a carrier. Not a game-changer.
Some will say that it will happen anyway when LTE arrives. Probably true. So does Verizon find it in its interest to play sooner? For that, we need the crystal ball ...
[QUOTE=ChickenHawk;1532852]I still can't see the logic in Apple spending millions and increasing the costs of their handsets worldwide, just to access another phone network in a country where they already have access to a network.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.[/QUOTE
Its just some small insignificant market. Not like it has 308 million people, is the size of Europe, or is the home market for the Iphone or anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
...except for that customer living in one of the vast stretches of the country where AT&T has no service...
Or the even larger stretches were AT&T has not bothered to update their network at all and has limited service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Munster is blowing smoke up his own skirt. T-mobile is the only other provider that makes sense at this point.
T-Mobile's 3G network makes AT&T's look huge and many of their affiliates don't even have 3G networks at all. Plus, its on a different GSM band not covered by the iPhone.
Comments
FYI, Verizon seems to be ahead of AT&T in deploying LTE and should have several major metropolitan areas online by the end of next year.
Verizon has to be ahead of AT&T and T-Mobile with LTE because investing in EVDO Rev. B is a fruitless endeavour. Sprint jumped the gun with ?4G? and invested in WiMAX, which we now see is a foolish move. Verizon is smartly going for LTE, but AT&T and T-Mo can wait as HSPA has barely gotten off the ground and the theroectial limits are many, many years from reaching their peaks.
We now only have 7.2Mbps HSDPA with no HSUPA in the iPhone. There is so much more that can go into that ?3G? before it?s a requirement for the rest of the world like it is for CDMA-based networks. Some carriers outside the US were smart enough to see the problems continuing with Qualcomm?s CDMA so they have a hybrid CDMA/3GSM network already.
Discounted by who? If they use the Qualcomm chip set all of this is totally possible.
I don?t agree agree that it?s ?totally possible.? The chip exists but I?ve seen no evidence that the chip is the same size or smaller than the current module plus radios used in the 3GS or that it uses the equivalent power so that the 3GS can have the same size battery without losing talk time.
Then there is a price issue, not just for the chip costs, but the licensing fees. I?ve read that Qualcomm charges 5.7% of the device?s revenue for using their tech, which is why a competing network was developed using only some of their patents.
As it stands now it looks like Apple would have to make a larger, heavier iPhone to handle the additional HW and larger battery , that would cost more or risk profit margins to make this device. The latter seems doable if the sales are high enough (which I think they would be), but the former doesn?t seem to be part of Apple?s DNA. I think adding the additional band IV 1700MHz spectrum for T-Mobile 3G compatibility is the simplest solution and therefore the most likely at this point.
If Apple put iWork on the iPhone I'm sure that would cause them to beef-up the iPhone SDK.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.
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and the rumors about the dual gsm/cdma are not only just rumors but they could be for the alleged tablet. having that on both types unlocked so folks can just add data to whatever they have is a perfect gateway into Mac for switchers.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T
...except for that customer living in one of the vast stretches of the country where AT&T has no service...
$99.99 a month, and Data access for email. Specifically email. Unlimited text, video, and picture messaging. But no other data access is included in this price. 450 minutes, too.
Add $30 for 5Gb of data otherwise. Visual Voicemail? Another $2.99. Total per month before fees is $132.98.
No thanks, Verizon.
When Apple in a TV Commercial here in US asked "Can your Network do that?" it was in regard to Voice and Date Simultaneously! If VZ can't deliver that, than it cripples iPhone, and why would Apple want that...?
If you're in an area with poor AT&T coverage you may get no voice or data so if you get one of the two on Verizon that's a net gain isn't it? If Apple is going to use one of these hybrid LTE/CDMA/GSM chipsets Verizon could offer data on LTE, voice on CDMA. Verizon is building LTE as a parallel network to CDMA so within the next 2 years it's likely many people will have access to both. CDMA is going to be around for another 5-10 years.
I still can't see the logic in Apple spending millions and increasing the costs of their handsets worldwide, just to access another phone network in a country where they already have access to a network.
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.
The logic is that Verizon still has nearly 100 million customers, MANY of which have only one reason to not have the iPhone - that it is only on ATT and they absolutely positively will not let go of Verizon. Apple would make plenty of money selling to 10% of those 100 million - 10 million times $500 per phone = 5 billion in revenue, and likely around 2.5 billion in profit that they otherwise have no chance of getting. See it now?
The logic is that Verizon still has nearly 100 million customers, MANY of which have only one reason to not have the iPhone - that it is only on ATT and they absolutely positively will not let go of Verizon. Apple would make plenty of money selling to 10% of those 100 million - 10 million times $500 per phone = 5 billion in revenue, and likely around 2.5 billion in profit that they otherwise have no chance of getting. See it now?
I'd rather see Apple take its growth opportunities a nibble at a time -- maybe with an occasional snack thrown in -- that in one big bite!
Verizon and China Mobile are basically the two gargantuan bites left for Apple, and I'd be perfectly happy if the company took its sweet time.
Just my 2¢.
If you're in an area with poor AT&T coverage you may get no voice or data so if you get one of the two on Verizon that's a net gain isn't it? If Apple is going to use one of these hybrid LTE/CDMA/GSM chipsets Verizon could offer data on LTE, voice on CDMA. Verizon is building LTE as a parallel network to CDMA so within the next 2 years it's likely many people will have access to both. CDMA is going to be around for another 5-10 years.
Excellent point, but... It'll be a while before Verizon has LTE everywhere, so that they legitimately claim Voice or Data capability! By then ATT will probably improve their overall Network...
Besides Voice or Data, it's ATT's Rollover Minutes, and this TV commercial http://bit.ly/73npfO illustrated that advantage very well. And, like I mentioned before, if Carriers start Limiting Data, will they have Rollover MBs or GBs
It seems like VZ did enough damage to on the PR front, getting people to believe that their Network is better! But I doubt that VZ will be able to milk that forever! Their Network was never really tested by iPhone type of demand, as was ATT, thus to it's foolish to assume that VZ is some kind of Savior in waiting, and once iPhone is on VZ it's perfect! I doubt it'd be as simple as that! Realistically, if iPhones were to be split between more than one US Carrier, everyone's iPhone would work better! But to prove the VZ The Savior Theory TODAY, one would have to switch ALL iPhones from ATT over night, or at least add the exact number of iPhones that ATT has to VZ. Then it'd be a fair way to see which Network does better, if the number of iPhones, or and Data Phones on both Networks is identical...
Right now it's easy for VZ make fun of ATT, cause they know that won't have ATT's Number of iPhones on VZ overnight... It also deflect the attention from VZ not having Rollover minutes until that ATT TV commercial http://bit.ly/73npfO sinks into public's mind as deeply as VZ's adds!
There are lots of good points made on this thread, but none of us have the info that Apple has, thus we can only speculate! One thing's for sure, Apple is driving the Cell Industry in a big way worldwide, and that is only to grow bigger! Of course all us will be impatient throughout this ongoing process...
china also has a small amount of cdma service.
also, if apple could manage to move from ibm computer chips to intel chips without skipping a beat, cdma is also doable if they so desire. the other cell phone manufacturers shudder every time apple announces some nondescript idea and the nay sayers start yelling droid droid, but not as loud lately.
don't tell the koreans that there is no cdma service anywhere but the usa. if their service was available in the usa, verizon would be in the icu room at the hospital. korea is head and shoulders above every country in quality and service for cell phones. and korea is cdma.
S. Korea has CDMA for 2G, but mostly uses 3GSM for 3G. Only LG Telecom has EVDO Rev. A for 3G and they only account for about 8M subs.
china also has a small amount of cdma service.
Small for China, but China Telecom has about 50M subs. Still, if Apple was going to make a non-3GSM phone for China it would likely be for China Mobile?s GSM/TD-SCDMA with about 510M subs.
If they want their own App Store and crippled phones, like they do with others, then No Deal.
If they want the current Apple model extended to Verizon, then Deal.
Apple is a game-changer. They'd like Verizon, but they don't *need* Verizon. Current scenario has made that very clear. Verizon is a carrier. A big one to be sure, but a carrier. Not a game-changer.
Some will say that it will happen anyway when LTE arrives. Probably true. So does Verizon find it in its interest to play sooner? For that, we need the crystal ball ...
VZW CDMA iPhone/mid'10 = 20%
VZW CDMA iPhone/mid'11 = 00%
VZW LTE iPhone/mid'10 = 29%
VZW LTE iPhone/mid'11 = 31%
No VZW iPhone at all = 20%
---------------------------------------
...................................= 100% No?
There is nothing physically stopping a verizon customer moving to AT&T, give them a big enough reason and they will. There is however something stopping many folks worldwide using a CDMA network - Namely they don't exist in that particular country.[/QUOTE
Its just some small insignificant market. Not like it has 308 million people, is the size of Europe, or is the home market for the Iphone or anything.
...except for that customer living in one of the vast stretches of the country where AT&T has no service...
Or the even larger stretches were AT&T has not bothered to update their network at all and has limited service.
Munster is blowing smoke up his own skirt. T-mobile is the only other provider that makes sense at this point.
T-Mobile's 3G network makes AT&T's look huge and many of their affiliates don't even have 3G networks at all. Plus, its on a different GSM band not covered by the iPhone.