Safari 4.04 running on a 2006 C2D Macbook-10.6.2 with 10 tabs open and clickToflash enabled (so there's no ads or crap running in the background) uses 9% to 14% of the CPU cycles. If I go to youtube and watch a video in flash, the flash plugin adds another 33% to 50%, percent to the processor load, plus safari uses at least an additional 10%. If I use the HTML 5 option for the same video, safari's cpu cycles go up about 15%, and there's no flash plugin running.. (tried to average between 6 different videos, your mileage may vary)
Flash has always been a second class citizen on the mac platform, hell almost 3rd class.. Adobe hasn't done anything to remedy the situation. They obviously have put more work in on the windows plugin.
I can go both ways with flash support on the iPad, there's definitely more of a reason to have it than on iPhone/iPod Touch. Even if they did add it, I'd want ClickToFlash on to stop all the crap flash ads from popping up .
As it stands right now I could do 95% of what I use this laptop for on an iPad, that remaining 5% would be watching embedded flash videos, and maybe using CSSEdit, and BBEdit.. If I'm doing any sort of image editing page layout or video editing I do that on my desktop, and that sort of thing I'll always do on my desktop.
If Adobe actually put some time in on the Arm based flash plugin, and it was efficient, and Apple added ClickToFlash to mobile Safari, I'd say we'd have the best of both worlds..
As the iPad is more an iteration of the iphone than a Mac, I would assume that Flash is not going to be joining us anytime soon.
Everyone mentions this flash website or that website, but Apple in their usual fashion is going to force everyone else to conform to the path it creates. And you know what? If iPad is half as popular as the iPhone/Touch, developers will listen in even greater numbers. Due to the iPad size, I think you will see a much broader adoption of web development that is compatible with it. I'm not a Flash basher, this is Apples path not mine.
What has Apple really lost by not including Flash to date? According to their revenue and stock numbers, not much. At this point I would be shocked if they included Flash support. Where's the motivation?
When Steve Jobs introduced the iPad on Wednesday, his live demonstrations with the device clearly showed the Safari browser was not capable of playing Adobe Flash. However, promotional images on Apple's Web site show that same content loading just fine. ...
This is a bit lame isn't it?
So someone at Apple will see this and the ad will be changed. Big deal.
Or perhaps the NYT is about to go Flash free in return for the heavy product placement?
If you think that video or even banner ads are keeping Flash alive, you're missing a very powerful lobby of interest and money. It's what the end user doesn't see that makes Flash a valuable money maker.
Flash has the ability to write to a user's hard drive. Flash can covertly bypass browser security using Flash cookies that can be executable code. The cookies are deeply nested so the average user doesn't even know they exist. They usually never expire, and they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.
It's this covert invasion of privacy that should alarm the public not the bugs in Flash.
I'd hope that any device running iTunes can log on to it too. The more portals, the more penetration.
I could like without the iBookstore on the Apple TV, but it should be accessible from every Apple computer, mobile device and iTunes installatio, just like the iTunes and App Stores.
And that would include all Windows PCs as well, since iTunes runs on PCs.
By the way, what iTunes is doing to Windows PCs is exactly what Apple doesn't want Flash to do to its mobile devices. Apple is a ruthless competitor (and that's why I own its stock).
they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.
Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.
Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain
User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe
User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.
Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.
Personally, I only want to see Flash if ClickToFlash is built in. I hate my MacBook Pro fans spinning up every time I go to a page that runs Flash not to mention the battery drain.
Simple: "Apple made a product that failed to do everything we thought it should, then compelled us to buy it with their Jedi mind tricks. This clearly amounts to fraud."
Where does apple state it plays flash? Where? Its not like Jobs got up and stated,"One more thing....It now supported flash".
No where in the keynote does this state this fact.
HTML5 only helps with playing videos, Flash can do a whole lot more than that. Actually, using Flash to play videos or display ads is dumb, the platform can do so much more than that that it's ridiculous to downplay it so much.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.
That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!
This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.
HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...
Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.
Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain
User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe
User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.
Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.
The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.
How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.
I agree with Wiggin. As soon as I saw it I thought it was intentional. Not that Steve would say it out loud, but he was kind of saying "F you Adobe".
Strange. I'm okay with that.
A lot of people are saying that these days cause Adobe has actually made the web less accessible & not more.
Opera, who supplies many of the browsers to consoles & other non PC devices, can't support latest versions of flash because Adobe hasn't released an SDK for latest versions. Adobe's own plugin for Mac breaks a ton of permissions after install & crashes the browser like crazy (not to mention the horrendous CPU hogging).
Adobe keeps trying to put a new face on the same old crappy plugin & people are getting sick of it. I feel sorry for developers stuck using it as it's probably even more of a pain to move a web site off it's flash dedication than to move a company network from Windows to OS X.
I've gotten to the point where I try to avoid flash at all costs, even disabling it on my Mac using click2flash. Only time I ever miss it is when I watch Hulu or try to use a flash based plugin like on tokbox. Even then I find myself hating the experience because of how horrible the performance is, but then what else is there? We badly need HTML5, it will stomp out the horrible neusense that is Flash. We need it to come fast too cause Silverlight needs to be stopped before it gains any ground. Proprietary web plugins have ruined the web fore years & kept it's richest content stuck on a clunky PC when it could be doing soooo much more! Even Quicktime web plugin needs to go the way of the dodo.
I think Apple is making a big mistake by not supporting Flash on the iPad. The iPhone got away with not supporting flash as the web interface was not billed as the best internet experiance ever. I can see thousand of people buying the iPad without knowing that it cannot view the vast MAJORITY of the video avaliable on the web. When they find out it will not support flash they are going to be irate and want their money back. I think we will see great initial sales of these units and soon after see a lot of these thing on the refurb site after they are returned over this one issue.
I really like the iPad. I can live without multitasking and a built in camera. I would buy one for myself, my mom and possible my wife, but I know that they would hate it without flash support. All of us like to use Hulu, TV, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.. to view tv shows. I just could not buy on with this serious limitation of web content. Flash may be going away, but it will take several years for it to be replaced on the majority of the web sites that currently use it....
I have hope that Apple with include flash at the last minute, but I will not buy one until it does....
HTML5 only helps with playing videos, Flash can do a whole lot more than that. Actually, using Flash to play videos or display ads is dumb, the platform can do so much more than that that it's ridiculous to downplay it so much.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.
That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!
This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.
HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...
You apparently haven't been following HTML 5 all that closely or you would have noticed that it's goal IS to replace the necessity for flash animation. There are many parts to HTML5 & not just the part regarding standards for web video content.
Furthermore, it isn't just developers making "bad flash", the plugin as a whole is inefficient & clunky. Bad flash developers only compound the need for strict standards.
To give you benefit of the doubt though, show us some flash done right, I want to see flash that doesn't actually bog down my computer & then I'll concede that maybe there is still a place for flash in this world.
If your viewing porn on your main machine, your a fool, if you use your real email with them or give them a credit card number your a bigger fool. If a exploit occurs, at the very least, all your unencrypted files are being uploaded and or read. At the worst, illegal pictures are being stored in your hidden caches or folders unknown to you, people have gone to jail for that.
Use a cheap Dell netbook with Ubuntu, it comes with Firefox, install Flash and install NoScript, turn off Java and Javascript. Keep the Dell in a safe hidden place and use it like you would a stack of porn magazines, in private. Learn how to reinstall the OS, or better yet, clone it from a clean backup after every use.
Your best to use a proxy server or a open wifi to mask your real IP address, as this can be used to find you. It's no guaranty from the government who has legal powers, but it does help against those who don't.
You know your way around; with that much precaution, seems like you d/l child porn 24/7.
The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.
How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.
Well I have to disagree with most of this, As far as Evil Flash Developers exploiting the Address Book: If this were possible Adobe would have had their feet held to the fire a long time ago. You are going to have to point to some credible evidence for this to be at all believable. I'm pretty sure this would fall into the category of complete hogwash.
Imagine how mad people who actually buy one will be.....
You mean the same people who own an iPhone/Touch that already know it doesn't work?? Gimme a break.
Apple's Ad folks are to blame, this is just a case of the right hand not talking to the left hand...not a conspiracy. What they need in their Ad department is an engineer to two who can actually verify the authenticity of their advertising.
"This device has not yet been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained."
Comments
youtube.com/html5
Safari 4.04 running on a 2006 C2D Macbook-10.6.2 with 10 tabs open and clickToflash enabled (so there's no ads or crap running in the background) uses 9% to 14% of the CPU cycles. If I go to youtube and watch a video in flash, the flash plugin adds another 33% to 50%, percent to the processor load, plus safari uses at least an additional 10%. If I use the HTML 5 option for the same video, safari's cpu cycles go up about 15%, and there's no flash plugin running.. (tried to average between 6 different videos, your mileage may vary)
Flash has always been a second class citizen on the mac platform, hell almost 3rd class.. Adobe hasn't done anything to remedy the situation. They obviously have put more work in on the windows plugin.
I can go both ways with flash support on the iPad, there's definitely more of a reason to have it than on iPhone/iPod Touch. Even if they did add it, I'd want ClickToFlash on to stop all the crap flash ads from popping up .
As it stands right now I could do 95% of what I use this laptop for on an iPad, that remaining 5% would be watching embedded flash videos, and maybe using CSSEdit, and BBEdit.. If I'm doing any sort of image editing page layout or video editing I do that on my desktop, and that sort of thing I'll always do on my desktop.
If Adobe actually put some time in on the Arm based flash plugin, and it was efficient, and Apple added ClickToFlash to mobile Safari, I'd say we'd have the best of both worlds..
I'm not counting on it though..
Everyone mentions this flash website or that website, but Apple in their usual fashion is going to force everyone else to conform to the path it creates. And you know what? If iPad is half as popular as the iPhone/Touch, developers will listen in even greater numbers. Due to the iPad size, I think you will see a much broader adoption of web development that is compatible with it. I'm not a Flash basher, this is Apples path not mine.
What has Apple really lost by not including Flash to date? According to their revenue and stock numbers, not much. At this point I would be shocked if they included Flash support. Where's the motivation?
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQnT0...video_response
Skip
When Steve Jobs introduced the iPad on Wednesday, his live demonstrations with the device clearly showed the Safari browser was not capable of playing Adobe Flash. However, promotional images on Apple's Web site show that same content loading just fine. ...
This is a bit lame isn't it?
So someone at Apple will see this and the ad will be changed. Big deal.
Or perhaps the NYT is about to go Flash free in return for the heavy product placement?
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune....pple-cold-war/
Flash has the ability to write to a user's hard drive. Flash can covertly bypass browser security using Flash cookies that can be executable code. The cookies are deeply nested so the average user doesn't even know they exist. They usually never expire, and they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.
It's this covert invasion of privacy that should alarm the public not the bugs in Flash.
I'd hope that any device running iTunes can log on to it too. The more portals, the more penetration.
I could like without the iBookstore on the Apple TV, but it should be accessible from every Apple computer, mobile device and iTunes installatio, just like the iTunes and App Stores.
And that would include all Windows PCs as well, since iTunes runs on PCs.
By the way, what iTunes is doing to Windows PCs is exactly what Apple doesn't want Flash to do to its mobile devices. Apple is a ruthless competitor (and that's why I own its stock).
they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.
Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.
Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain
User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe
User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.
Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.
Simple: "Apple made a product that failed to do everything we thought it should, then compelled us to buy it with their Jedi mind tricks. This clearly amounts to fraud."
Where does apple state it plays flash? Where? Its not like Jobs got up and stated,"One more thing....It now supported flash".
No where in the keynote does this state this fact.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.
That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!
This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.
HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...
Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.
Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain
User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe
User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.
Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.
The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.
How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.
I agree with Wiggin. As soon as I saw it I thought it was intentional. Not that Steve would say it out loud, but he was kind of saying "F you Adobe".
Strange. I'm okay with that.
A lot of people are saying that these days cause Adobe has actually made the web less accessible & not more.
Opera, who supplies many of the browsers to consoles & other non PC devices, can't support latest versions of flash because Adobe hasn't released an SDK for latest versions. Adobe's own plugin for Mac breaks a ton of permissions after install & crashes the browser like crazy (not to mention the horrendous CPU hogging).
Adobe keeps trying to put a new face on the same old crappy plugin & people are getting sick of it. I feel sorry for developers stuck using it as it's probably even more of a pain to move a web site off it's flash dedication than to move a company network from Windows to OS X.
I've gotten to the point where I try to avoid flash at all costs, even disabling it on my Mac using click2flash. Only time I ever miss it is when I watch Hulu or try to use a flash based plugin like on tokbox. Even then I find myself hating the experience because of how horrible the performance is, but then what else is there? We badly need HTML5, it will stomp out the horrible neusense that is Flash. We need it to come fast too cause Silverlight needs to be stopped before it gains any ground. Proprietary web plugins have ruined the web fore years & kept it's richest content stuck on a clunky PC when it could be doing soooo much more! Even Quicktime web plugin needs to go the way of the dodo.
I really like the iPad. I can live without multitasking and a built in camera. I would buy one for myself, my mom and possible my wife, but I know that they would hate it without flash support. All of us like to use Hulu, TV, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.. to view tv shows. I just could not buy on with this serious limitation of web content. Flash may be going away, but it will take several years for it to be replaced on the majority of the web sites that currently use it....
I have hope that Apple with include flash at the last minute, but I will not buy one until it does....
HTML5 only helps with playing videos, Flash can do a whole lot more than that. Actually, using Flash to play videos or display ads is dumb, the platform can do so much more than that that it's ridiculous to downplay it so much.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.
That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!
This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.
HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...
You apparently haven't been following HTML 5 all that closely or you would have noticed that it's goal IS to replace the necessity for flash animation. There are many parts to HTML5 & not just the part regarding standards for web video content.
Furthermore, it isn't just developers making "bad flash", the plugin as a whole is inefficient & clunky. Bad flash developers only compound the need for strict standards.
To give you benefit of the doubt though, show us some flash done right, I want to see flash that doesn't actually bog down my computer & then I'll concede that maybe there is still a place for flash in this world.
If your viewing porn on your main machine, your a fool, if you use your real email with them or give them a credit card number your a bigger fool. If a exploit occurs, at the very least, all your unencrypted files are being uploaded and or read. At the worst, illegal pictures are being stored in your hidden caches or folders unknown to you, people have gone to jail for that.
Use a cheap Dell netbook with Ubuntu, it comes with Firefox, install Flash and install NoScript, turn off Java and Javascript. Keep the Dell in a safe hidden place and use it like you would a stack of porn magazines, in private. Learn how to reinstall the OS, or better yet, clone it from a clean backup after every use.
Your best to use a proxy server or a open wifi to mask your real IP address, as this can be used to find you. It's no guaranty from the government who has legal powers, but it does help against those who don't.
You know your way around; with that much precaution, seems like you d/l child porn 24/7.
The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.
How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.
Well I have to disagree with most of this, As far as Evil Flash Developers exploiting the Address Book: If this were possible Adobe would have had their feet held to the fire a long time ago. You are going to have to point to some credible evidence for this to be at all believable. I'm pretty sure this would fall into the category of complete hogwash.
At least one person already filed a FTC complaint agains Apple for false advertising.....
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/ipad-flash
Imagine how mad people who actually buy one will be.....
Well,
At least one person already filed a FTC complaint agains Apple for false advertising.....
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/ipad-flash
Imagine how mad people who actually buy one will be.....
You mean the same people who own an iPhone/Touch that already know it doesn't work?? Gimme a break.
Apple's Ad folks are to blame, this is just a case of the right hand not talking to the left hand...not a conspiracy. What they need in their Ad department is an engineer to two who can actually verify the authenticity of their advertising.
Read the fine print: http://www.apple.com/ipad/
"This device has not yet been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained."