Open with...what ? You are already in the application which launched the dialog box. I can guarantee you other third party apps can't see each other on the device.
Read post #72. Apps will need to register with the OS what type of files they can open. When another app tries to open a file that it does not support it will ask the OS what app is capable of working with this file. The OS will then replies with a list of supported apps and probably giving the user the list of apps to choose from. Apps don't need to see each other, they only need to know what they need to know. If you ask developers they will tell you that they don't want other apps to mess with their app files and directory. That's the point of the sandbox.
In a move foreshadowed by the Newton Message Pad fifteen years ago, Apple's new iPad jettisons the conventional shared file system and introduces a new, streamlined convention for working with document files that ordinary users should find much more understandable.
This comparison is misleading and not really valid. The iPad does not "jettison" the file system at all -- it's still there; the user just doesn't see it -- whereas the Newton really did get rid of the entire concept of files. There were literally no files on it, just databases full of objects; to export "files" for use on a computer, they had to be constructed from those database objects and then saved in some file format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
The iPhone similarly abstracts away the file system entirely; there is no concept of opening or saving files, just a media library of Photos and file attachments that stay connected to their mailbox items.
Again, not quite correct. There are iPhone apps in which explicit loading and saving of files *does* take place, such as all the image editing apps that can open images from your photo library (regardless of the convenient browser for selecting them, these are still files stored in a file system), and audio apps such as Beatmaker, which has functions for opening and saving of different types of files, even importing/exporting them.
Maybe you guys are confusing "file browser" with "file system". The hierarchical file system has not gone anywhere. It's there just like every other variant of Mac OS X. Basically they've just sandboxed each app's documents and eliminated the Finder.
Well, what do I do if I want to open it with another app than Pages then? I guess you could tap and hold on the file and have an "Open with..." menu, as Takeo said.
Look, you guys are getting too frazzled about all of this. We don't even know what the features are yet other than what Apple showed.
I've been reading articles on various web sites that have been saying that pages will open a Word Doc, but not save to one, even though there is video showing Jobs telling Mossberg that it will!
There's a lot about the way this works that people don't know about yet. It's possible that some of this has already been addressed. People here are worrying about things that we don't even know is true, and they're discussing it as though it it.
In other words, we don't know if all these limitations really exist. We should be questioning whether they do, rather than acting as though they do.
And, again for the fourth time, this is just 3.2. It's likely that the REAL iPad OS will be 4.0 coming out in late June.
I have access to iPhone Developer documentation and here is an except:
"Document Support
An application can now register the file types it supports with the system and receive notifications when a file of the given type needs to be opened. It does this by including the CFBundleDocumentTypes key in its Info.plist file. An application that registers one or more file types may also be expected to open files of those types at some point later. It does this by implementing the application:didFinishLaunchingWithOptions: method in its application delegate and look for a file in the UIApplicationLaunchOptionsURLKey key of the provided dictionary.
Complimenting the ability to open files of known types is the addition of the UIDocumentInteractionController class in the UIKit framework. This class provides a user-based interaction model for managing files that your application does not know how to open. The document interaction controller provides options for previewing the contents of a file in place or opening it in another application. Document interaction controllers are particularly useful for email applications or applications that may download files from the network."
Thank you!
As I've been saying, what we say in the presentation, and even in Apple's site isn't the whole word on this. There's far more to the iPad than some think.
Open with...what ? You are already in the application which launched the dialog box. I can guarantee you other third party apps can't see each other on the device.
You can't guarantee anything. You don't know more than anyone else who isn't a developer, as has just been proven by a couple here who are.
Ok that's fine, but I doubt that there will be a button in iPad Mail that will say "open with 'Documents-to-go (current iPhone app)' or 'XXX made up PDF editor' or 'YYY made up photo editor' or 'ZZZ other made up App store app.' There will probably only be an option to open with Apple's own apps, which is not a great thing.
So view it on iWork on the tablet, then edit it on your desktop on whatever application you like.
Besides, once you get used to iWork on the iPad, you might just love it.
"Of course, it is important to remember that although you can manipulate files in your iPad applications, files should never be a focal part of your application. There are no open and save panels in iPhone OS for a very good reason. The save panel in particular implies that it is the user?s responsibility to save all data, but this is not the model that iPhone applications should ever use. Instead, applications should save data incrementally to prevent the loss of that data when the application quits or is interrupted by the system. To do this, your application must take responsibility for managing the creation and saving the user?s content at appropriate times.
Of course, sometimes interacting with files is necessary. If your application creates files that can be exchanged with a desktop computer, you might need to write files to your application?s file-sharing directory. In this case, always be mindful that the user can add or remove files from that directory. Applications should look for new files in this directory and present them to the user automatically. If the user puts a file in the directory whose type your application does not recognize, you can use a UIDocumentInteractionController object to manage the file-related interactions for you as appropriate."
Don't be so sure about that. With the iPad it's obvious that the OS is at the beginning of major power upgrades. We're going to see many OS X developers jump on this. As the computer becomes more powerful over the next few years, it will be able to handle more powerful apps. Apple has shown in a patent a movie editing program as one of the uses it will be put to.
Good points.
If the iPad catches on in a big way (and I think it will), I can see what you're saying... Apple gradually beefing up the innards to the point that it becomes a real workhorse for creative work. The form factor seems perfect for some things, namely creative/creativity apps. I can imagine a 256GB model a couple years from now with, say, quadruple the A4's processing power.
I haven't held one yet, but I suspect that when I do I'll fall in love and become a salivating iPad zombie.
Look, you guys are getting too frazzled about all of this. We don't even know what the features are yet other than what Apple showed.
I've been reading articles on various web sites that have been saying that pages will open a Word Doc, but not save to one, even though there is video showing Jobs telling Mossberg that it will!
There's a lot about the way this works that people don't know about yet. It's possible that some of this has already been addressed. People here are worrying about things that we don't even know is true, and they're discussing it as though it it.
In other words, we don't know if all these limitations really exist. We should be questioning whether they do, rather than acting as though they do.
And, again for the fourth time, this is just 3.2. It's likely that the REAL iPad OS will be 4.0 coming out in late June.
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
Applications can now register themselves as being able to open specific types of files. This support allows applications that do need to work with files (such as email programs) the ability to pass those files to other applications."
Does this mean that someone could create an app to view AVI or WMV files?
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
So don't buy an iPad then. Personally... I love my 27" iMac + 24" external monitor. Awesome for creative work and web development. I have no need for an iPad. But I can see how it could be a really neat thing for the uses it's aimed at. And I'm really intrigued by the whole idea of the application taking care of document creation and saving for you. I know it would make my dad's life simpler. He barely knows when to click vs. double-click. iPad would be perfect for him.
"Of course, it is important to remember that although you can manipulate files in your iPad applications, files should never be a focal part of your application. There are no open and save panels in iPhone OS for a very good reason. The save panel in particular implies that it is the user?s responsibility to save all data, but this is not the model that iPhone applications should ever use. Instead, applications should save data incrementally to prevent the loss of that data when the application quits or is interrupted by the system. To do this, your application must take responsibility for managing the creation and saving the user?s content at appropriate times.
Of course, sometimes interacting with files is necessary. If your application creates files that can be exchanged with a desktop computer, you might need to write files to your application?s file-sharing directory. In this case, always be mindful that the user can add or remove files from that directory. Applications should look for new files in this directory and present them to the user automatically. If the user puts a file in the directory whose type your application does not recognize, you can use a UIDocumentInteractionController object to manage the file-related interactions for you as appropriate."
"files should never be a focal part of your application"...
uh. I don't want to make a Snappy the Clown application here folks. I want to program something useful that I can use on my phone. Sense when did tech documentation have so much philosophy and marketing speak bundled up all in one paragraph?
As I've been saying, what we say in the presentation, and even in Apple's site isn't the whole word on this. There's far more to the iPad than some think.
There are many things they didn't explain well in the iPad documentation. My guess is they are holding information back until they officially announce iPhone 4.0 beta in March or April.
I was in advertising for years. It taught me NOT to believe everything. I hope you didn't believe your own junk.
The point is that Apple likes to make things appear as simple as possible. It likes to put as much under the hood as possible.
Did you ever use PC DOS, or Windows before 2000? If you aren't too young to have had that lovely experience, you don't know how different the Mac OS was from that. While we were screwing around with interrupts every time we changed, added, or removed boards, on the PC (and found out that there wasn't enough!), we never had to do that with a Mac. Yeah, some PC people thought it was great "managing" that cruft. But it wasn't. It was stupid. The Mac took care of that nonsense so we could just get on with it. Plenty of other examples.
This is what's happening here. Apple will tell us the basic things so that people in general will see whats it's about. When you get the thing in your hands, you find a lot of details about the way it works that hasn't been mentioned. A lot of things will just work because the OS is taking care of it.
I really think you're worrying too much here. We're going to see more info coming out over time. Give it a break.
It doesn't? - We'll see, but I'll be surprised if Apple aren't looking to 'control' more of the cloud with MobileMe, and add another revenue stream. (God bless them little Apples)
Obviously not. The discussion is about the way files are stored and managed on the device.
So don't buy an iPad then. Personally... I love my 27" iMac + 24" external monitor. Awesome for creative work and web development. I have no need for an iPad. But I can see how it could be a really neat thing for the uses it's aimed at.
Syncing the files via a cloud bases service would be a real reinvention. But this smells like a Windows 7 HomeGroup like sharing experience.
And we would still need iTunes and an USB cable oh and a personal computer for other things to sync.
For me the real problem is about what the iPad wants to be?!
It is not a PC, I'm OK with that. But like the iPhone is a communication device and the iPod touch is a mobile music/media consumption device, what is the iPad? If it wants to be an internet device it should have flash, a webcam and at least iChat that can run beside other apps. If it wants to be a media consumption device it should have a 16:9 display, stereo speaker, IPTV and full HD video out. If it wants to be a reading device it should have a different display because even this sexy display will hurt your eyes. If it wants to be a digital note book it should have get optional stylus input. Seriously, that notes app is a joke, isn't it? Compare that with MS Office OneNote or even the Journals app coming with Win7...
And did people realize that they just copied two of the most innovative gestures from that Courier prototype video? (1: pinch to close full screen apps and 2: tab, hold to drag items around)
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
Out of curiosity, who did you hear this from, and why did you base your expectations on rumors? Because Apple never even said they were making a tablet, let alone what it would do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thartist
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
"files should never be a focal part of your application"...
uh. I don't want to make a Snappy the Clown application here folks. I want to program something useful that I can use on my phone. Sense when did tech documentation have so much philosophy and marketing speak bundled up all in one paragraph?
I read "files should never be a focal part of your application" not as "philosophy and marketing", but as a software design recommendation for abstraction.
Comments
Open with...what ? You are already in the application which launched the dialog box. I can guarantee you other third party apps can't see each other on the device.
Read post #72. Apps will need to register with the OS what type of files they can open. When another app tries to open a file that it does not support it will ask the OS what app is capable of working with this file. The OS will then replies with a list of supported apps and probably giving the user the list of apps to choose from. Apps don't need to see each other, they only need to know what they need to know. If you ask developers they will tell you that they don't want other apps to mess with their app files and directory. That's the point of the sandbox.
In a move foreshadowed by the Newton Message Pad fifteen years ago, Apple's new iPad jettisons the conventional shared file system and introduces a new, streamlined convention for working with document files that ordinary users should find much more understandable.
This comparison is misleading and not really valid. The iPad does not "jettison" the file system at all -- it's still there; the user just doesn't see it -- whereas the Newton really did get rid of the entire concept of files. There were literally no files on it, just databases full of objects; to export "files" for use on a computer, they had to be constructed from those database objects and then saved in some file format.
The iPhone similarly abstracts away the file system entirely; there is no concept of opening or saving files, just a media library of Photos and file attachments that stay connected to their mailbox items.
Again, not quite correct. There are iPhone apps in which explicit loading and saving of files *does* take place, such as all the image editing apps that can open images from your photo library (regardless of the convenient browser for selecting them, these are still files stored in a file system), and audio apps such as Beatmaker, which has functions for opening and saving of different types of files, even importing/exporting them.
Maybe you guys are confusing "file browser" with "file system". The hierarchical file system has not gone anywhere. It's there just like every other variant of Mac OS X. Basically they've just sandboxed each app's documents and eliminated the Finder.
Well, what do I do if I want to open it with another app than Pages then? I guess you could tap and hold on the file and have an "Open with..." menu, as Takeo said.
Look, you guys are getting too frazzled about all of this. We don't even know what the features are yet other than what Apple showed.
I've been reading articles on various web sites that have been saying that pages will open a Word Doc, but not save to one, even though there is video showing Jobs telling Mossberg that it will!
There's a lot about the way this works that people don't know about yet. It's possible that some of this has already been addressed. People here are worrying about things that we don't even know is true, and they're discussing it as though it it.
In other words, we don't know if all these limitations really exist. We should be questioning whether they do, rather than acting as though they do.
And, again for the fourth time, this is just 3.2. It's likely that the REAL iPad OS will be 4.0 coming out in late June.
I have access to iPhone Developer documentation and here is an except:
"Document Support
An application can now register the file types it supports with the system and receive notifications when a file of the given type needs to be opened. It does this by including the CFBundleDocumentTypes key in its Info.plist file. An application that registers one or more file types may also be expected to open files of those types at some point later. It does this by implementing the application:didFinishLaunchingWithOptions: method in its application delegate and look for a file in the UIApplicationLaunchOptionsURLKey key of the provided dictionary.
Complimenting the ability to open files of known types is the addition of the UIDocumentInteractionController class in the UIKit framework. This class provides a user-based interaction model for managing files that your application does not know how to open. The document interaction controller provides options for previewing the contents of a file in place or opening it in another application. Document interaction controllers are particularly useful for email applications or applications that may download files from the network."
Thank you!
As I've been saying, what we say in the presentation, and even in Apple's site isn't the whole word on this. There's far more to the iPad than some think.
Open with...what ? You are already in the application which launched the dialog box. I can guarantee you other third party apps can't see each other on the device.
You can't guarantee anything. You don't know more than anyone else who isn't a developer, as has just been proven by a couple here who are.
Ok that's fine, but I doubt that there will be a button in iPad Mail that will say "open with 'Documents-to-go (current iPhone app)' or 'XXX made up PDF editor' or 'YYY made up photo editor' or 'ZZZ other made up App store app.' There will probably only be an option to open with Apple's own apps, which is not a great thing.
So view it on iWork on the tablet, then edit it on your desktop on whatever application you like.
Besides, once you get used to iWork on the iPad, you might just love it.
Fair enough. What about saving files?
Again from the documentation:
"Of course, it is important to remember that although you can manipulate files in your iPad applications, files should never be a focal part of your application. There are no open and save panels in iPhone OS for a very good reason. The save panel in particular implies that it is the user?s responsibility to save all data, but this is not the model that iPhone applications should ever use. Instead, applications should save data incrementally to prevent the loss of that data when the application quits or is interrupted by the system. To do this, your application must take responsibility for managing the creation and saving the user?s content at appropriate times.
Of course, sometimes interacting with files is necessary. If your application creates files that can be exchanged with a desktop computer, you might need to write files to your application?s file-sharing directory. In this case, always be mindful that the user can add or remove files from that directory. Applications should look for new files in this directory and present them to the user automatically. If the user puts a file in the directory whose type your application does not recognize, you can use a UIDocumentInteractionController object to manage the file-related interactions for you as appropriate."
Don't be so sure about that. With the iPad it's obvious that the OS is at the beginning of major power upgrades. We're going to see many OS X developers jump on this. As the computer becomes more powerful over the next few years, it will be able to handle more powerful apps. Apple has shown in a patent a movie editing program as one of the uses it will be put to.
Good points.
If the iPad catches on in a big way (and I think it will), I can see what you're saying... Apple gradually beefing up the innards to the point that it becomes a real workhorse for creative work. The form factor seems perfect for some things, namely creative/creativity apps. I can imagine a 256GB model a couple years from now with, say, quadruple the A4's processing power.
I haven't held one yet, but I suspect that when I do I'll fall in love and become a salivating iPad zombie.
Look, you guys are getting too frazzled about all of this. We don't even know what the features are yet other than what Apple showed.
I've been reading articles on various web sites that have been saying that pages will open a Word Doc, but not save to one, even though there is video showing Jobs telling Mossberg that it will!
There's a lot about the way this works that people don't know about yet. It's possible that some of this has already been addressed. People here are worrying about things that we don't even know is true, and they're discussing it as though it it.
In other words, we don't know if all these limitations really exist. We should be questioning whether they do, rather than acting as though they do.
And, again for the fourth time, this is just 3.2. It's likely that the REAL iPad OS will be 4.0 coming out in late June.
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
From iPhone OS 3.2 Documentation:
Applications can now register themselves as being able to open specific types of files. This support allows applications that do need to work with files (such as email programs) the ability to pass those files to other applications."
Does this mean that someone could create an app to view AVI or WMV files?
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
So don't buy an iPad then. Personally... I love my 27" iMac + 24" external monitor. Awesome for creative work and web development. I have no need for an iPad. But I can see how it could be a really neat thing for the uses it's aimed at. And I'm really intrigued by the whole idea of the application taking care of document creation and saving for you. I know it would make my dad's life simpler. He barely knows when to click vs. double-click. iPad would be perfect for him.
Again from the documentation:
"Of course, it is important to remember that although you can manipulate files in your iPad applications, files should never be a focal part of your application. There are no open and save panels in iPhone OS for a very good reason. The save panel in particular implies that it is the user?s responsibility to save all data, but this is not the model that iPhone applications should ever use. Instead, applications should save data incrementally to prevent the loss of that data when the application quits or is interrupted by the system. To do this, your application must take responsibility for managing the creation and saving the user?s content at appropriate times.
Of course, sometimes interacting with files is necessary. If your application creates files that can be exchanged with a desktop computer, you might need to write files to your application?s file-sharing directory. In this case, always be mindful that the user can add or remove files from that directory. Applications should look for new files in this directory and present them to the user automatically. If the user puts a file in the directory whose type your application does not recognize, you can use a UIDocumentInteractionController object to manage the file-related interactions for you as appropriate."
"files should never be a focal part of your application"...
uh. I don't want to make a Snappy the Clown application here folks. I want to program something useful that I can use on my phone. Sense when did tech documentation have so much philosophy and marketing speak bundled up all in one paragraph?
Thank you!
As I've been saying, what we say in the presentation, and even in Apple's site isn't the whole word on this. There's far more to the iPad than some think.
There are many things they didn't explain well in the iPad documentation. My guess is they are holding information back until they officially announce iPhone 4.0 beta in March or April.
Of course I do. I'm in marketing.
I was in advertising for years. It taught me NOT to believe everything. I hope you didn't believe your own junk.
The point is that Apple likes to make things appear as simple as possible. It likes to put as much under the hood as possible.
Did you ever use PC DOS, or Windows before 2000? If you aren't too young to have had that lovely experience, you don't know how different the Mac OS was from that. While we were screwing around with interrupts every time we changed, added, or removed boards, on the PC (and found out that there wasn't enough!), we never had to do that with a Mac. Yeah, some PC people thought it was great "managing" that cruft. But it wasn't. It was stupid. The Mac took care of that nonsense so we could just get on with it. Plenty of other examples.
This is what's happening here. Apple will tell us the basic things so that people in general will see whats it's about. When you get the thing in your hands, you find a lot of details about the way it works that hasn't been mentioned. A lot of things will just work because the OS is taking care of it.
I really think you're worrying too much here. We're going to see more info coming out over time. Give it a break.
This has absolutely nothing to do with MobileMe
It doesn't? - We'll see, but I'll be surprised if Apple aren't looking to 'control' more of the cloud with MobileMe, and add another revenue stream. (God bless them little Apples)
Obviously not. The discussion is about the way files are stored and managed on the device.
So don't buy an iPad then. Personally... I love my 27" iMac + 24" external monitor. Awesome for creative work and web development. I have no need for an iPad. But I can see how it could be a really neat thing for the uses it's aimed at.
What are the uses again? I missed those.
And we would still need iTunes and an USB cable oh and a personal computer for other things to sync.
For me the real problem is about what the iPad wants to be?!
It is not a PC, I'm OK with that. But like the iPhone is a communication device and the iPod touch is a mobile music/media consumption device, what is the iPad? If it wants to be an internet device it should have flash, a webcam and at least iChat that can run beside other apps. If it wants to be a media consumption device it should have a 16:9 display, stereo speaker, IPTV and full HD video out. If it wants to be a reading device it should have a different display because even this sexy display will hurt your eyes. If it wants to be a digital note book it should have get optional stylus input. Seriously, that notes app is a joke, isn't it? Compare that with MS Office OneNote or even the Journals app coming with Win7...
And did people realize that they just copied two of the most innovative gestures from that Courier prototype video? (1: pinch to close full screen apps and 2: tab, hold to drag items around)
To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
Then you have plenty of netbooks to choose from, right? The iPad isn't for you. Fair enough.
On the other hand, lotta people won't be looking for a swiss army knife. They'll be looking for a precision toolset that already feels familiar.
Along with a camera and multitasking? Yes, yes, we have heard this before.
Out of curiosity, who did you hear this from, and why did you base your expectations on rumors? Because Apple never even said they were making a tablet, let alone what it would do.
I don't want to find out that I have purchased an $850 brick with a cheap 64 gig hard drive when I can go out and buy a 500 gig mini pocket drive for under a hundred bucks. I mean, what type of economy does Steve Jobs think this is? To be quite honest, I'm not really comfortable with a watered down OS on ANY device for over $300 dollars.
Then don't buy it.
"files should never be a focal part of your application"...
uh. I don't want to make a Snappy the Clown application here folks. I want to program something useful that I can use on my phone. Sense when did tech documentation have so much philosophy and marketing speak bundled up all in one paragraph?
I read "files should never be a focal part of your application" not as "philosophy and marketing", but as a software design recommendation for abstraction.