Now you can say people dont watch movies on their computers but simply that isnt true. At 27" that is still a great size for movies in incredibly high resolution.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand that. The fallacy about screen size is that it's not just about screen size, it's also about distance. HD video looks a lot better than SD on 15" notebook computer, because it's right in front of you at arm's length.
The same things was said 10 years ago when Apple dropped the floppy disk and adopted the CD/DVD. People said the industry wasn't ready. Or when Apple dropped the old multipin ports and adopted USB and Firewire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Move away from optical media before the market is ready and it could be very much to Apple's peril.
I read a lot of the finger pointing between the two and it seems to be the same ol' same ol'. I don't see why Adobe and Apple can't work together to make things better. Flash is garbage on OS X, but it's not as if Apple is making it easy for Adobe. In fact, I can't remember the last time Flash crashed on my SL install since a removal and reinstall for it. No flash and no java runtime equals not being the whole internet experience as Apple claims. I don't miss Flash that much on my iPhone, but there are times when I am driving with co-workers trying to look at an online menu for some eatery and it doesn't work because it's in Flash. Other than that, no issues.
Point being that
1. Flash is proprietary and Adobe won't let anyone look at the source code, let alone work in partnership with them to fix it. And it does need fixing.
2. There is nothing useful about creating a navigation system in flash - that's just poor web design. Navigation should be accessible, with out the need for closed, proprietary technology.
3. What lack of java in mac broswers? Java Runtime, ok - not sure what your point is here - but that's not about the end user experience. I develop in ajax/jquery/javascript/css/html all day and Safari and Firefox on the mac are the best standards supporters in this arena - the only thing which hangs/crashes is the only component which isn't standards compliant and open source/non-proprietary. Flash.
The replacements for floppy drives and serial and parallel ports represented clear and obvious benefits over their predecessors. I don't, however, see a replacement for optical drives that offers such a clear and obvious benefit just yet. Yes, I agree that it will happen, but optical drives still represent a cheap and effective means of delivering and storing data.
Agreed! but it would be nice to see a world without plastic CD's/DVD's and all the attendant, plastic and cardboard packaging...not to mention the toxic ink used or all the mideast oil being used to ship this stuff. If I can download a 4gig movie wirelessly I don't see why I can't download most software?
For me, maybe 1 in 50 Netflixed Blu-Rays arrive cracked. Never had one not play due to scratching though, so that part works well, but I rarely get a DVD that doesn't play well because of scratches.
That's been about my experience as well, and what's bad is you can't see the cracks, so you send it back as being unplayable to get another, wind up with the same version with the same problem.
Must be going through the mail processing machines or something causing it.
The problem with this event was more like talking behind someone else's back, not a direct conversation like you suggest. It needs to be said to Adobe, not preached to the Apple employee choir.
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
Don't be so naive.
I'm pretty sure Adobe and Apple have their own dialogue going on behind closed doors. It's just a shame employees can't keep their mouths shut and harm their employer by leaking the content of (private) meetings such as these.
If apple employees are so disgruntled, I'm pretty sure they're free to leave.
Before it's tome, no. When it's time, yes. This isn't the 1990s. People are well connected to the internet and to networks in their home. Installing software via CD/DVD or watching/listening to music from a disc isn't that common in personal computers these. Is it done, sure, but Apple doesn't make decisions on what some may still be doing. They have several other agendas that are helping to push this change. It will happen and those that think it won't are just as wrong as the ones that thought you can't remove the floppydrive, serial and parallel ports from computers.
We are well connected to the internet, but there are limitations on us from cable companies (i have no such limitations but i hear comcast is notorious for this) not everyone will be able to rely solely on this.
CD/DVDs provide a cheap way to distribute software and that is why it wont be going anywhere anytime soon. (im saying atleast next 5 years)
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
...Apple could easily support Blu-ray for their AppleTV instead of the paltry and lacking offering that it currently is. What annoys me to no end is their new upper end of devices like the new iMac both 21 & 27' models which support Blu-ray resolutions are missing this. I can see MBPs and the Mini missing this support, but damn throw us a bone.
I totally agree with you here. I was sorely disappointed to see the new iMac line not offer Blu-ray support. Unfortunately, we seem to be in the minority here and you won't find much support from many of the members here on AI.
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
Don't be so naive.
very true, what do you expect? after all, they're after his ideas, so why wouldn't he hate them?
i would love it if people that complain about lack of webcam in the ipad, how would you position the tablet when you do video conferences?
Steve Jobs is a genious but Apple cannot survive without Adobe, Google, or Blu-ray IMHO.
Nah.
In the first place, Google can't stop providing it's services to Apple or to Mac users, that would be against the law, so they aren't even in the equation. In the second place, BluRay will probably be supported when (as Steve himself notes), enough people have enough BluRay discs that it becomes an issue.
Thirdly, Adobe has some core software on the Mac, but it's all shite. It's written poorly, it's coded using tools from decades ago, and it's buggy and slow. There are two guys who have already written an almost complete replacement for Photoshop for instance all by themselves called Pixelmator. Two guys! Steve is right that Adobe with all it's thousands of employees is just lazy in that they haven't found the time to do this themselves.
If Adobe refused to make Mac versions of their products, you can bet that Apple would have a viable contender in place for all of them inside of a few months.
Apple doesn't want to be the producers of all the software for the Mac, they know that it's a far healthier situation if companies like Adobe develop the programs themselves. Why else would they be so patient with the heap of dog doo-doo that is Adobe CS suite? If that doesn't work though, you can be sure that Apple has several alternative plans in place.
In short, neither of these two companies, nor the BluRay consortium, have any hold over Apple in the long term and none of them could "bring Apple down" or anything of the sort.
The replacements for floppy drives and serial and parallel ports represented clear and obvious benefits over their predecessors. I don't, however, see a replacement for optical drives that offers such a clear and obvious benefit just yet. Yes, I agree that it will happen, but optical drives still represent a cheap and effective means of delivering and storing data.
Devices that only had options to connect via serial or parallel ports when your Mac had a USB port, requiring you to buy new peripherals or getting lucky with an adapter was a not a clear benefit for those that didn't do their homework.
Floppy Drives were rewritable, multiple times, while most CD drives were read only or had a single write option that used up a very expensive disc.
Yet these changes still happened despite 100% of the population not yet being ready for it.
We know most people don't do backups and the most likely way to complete a backup by HDDs, so I can't imagine your comment "optical drives still [...] means of [...] storing data." is referring to that. If we're talking about movies, I have to wonder how many people really use their notebook computers for watching DVD movies over a DVD player in a home entertainment center.
Optical drives came about when the internet wasn't as ubiquitous, when HDD costs were high. THey simply aren't party of the path of the personal notebook computer. If you think you need a DVD player in your future notebook to install apps and watch movies then you're not going to be a Mac user.
And I doubt we will ever see anyone be consistent with the technology's name. It's "Blu-ray Disc" Capital "B", no "e", hyphen, lowercase "ray" and the word "Disc". It has never been referred to as any kind of "DVD". Save yourself the trouble and use the short TLA BR-D.
great contribution to this thread, you are my hero
Apple has switched from PPC to Intel processors in a emergency basically because the PPC was too hot for laptops. As a result the cloners reared their ugly heads, but Apple bought PA Semi to make their own processors and now with the iPad announcement that it has a Apple A4 processor, goes to show Apple doesn't need Intel processors any longer.
They also switched because the AIM alliance was basically dead and Motorola could careless for Apple. The Apple A4 processor is only 1 GHz. While perfect for an iPhone or an iPad, that is by no means fast enough for a consumer/pro laptop/desktop. Apple have also stated many times that they are very happy with their relationship to Intel. They (Apple) don't get preferred treatment on new processors first before the other guys (who have more hardware, and more sales) for nothing. Apple and Intel will be in bed together a long time.
We are well connected to the internet, but there are limitations on us from cable companies (i have no such limitations but i hear comcast is notorious for this) not everyone will be able to rely solely on this.
CD/DVDs provide a cheap way to distribute software and that is why it wont be going anywhere anytime soon. (im saying atleast next 5 years)
Yep...I hope it's within 5 years! It seems like five years ago 'most' people were still using dial-up!
I think Blockbuster is getting a 'taste' of the changes that are coming! As is NetFlix. The App store has changed everything, including the optimum delivery method for music, movies, books, newspapers, magazines, games and software!
My guess would be no on the A4 or a variation of it for new Macs, unless Steve decides to expand their offerings to netboxes or does a notebook variation on the iPad. No software vendor is going to make another chip platform change with Apple, especially not after Steve's lack of appreciation with Adobe in this last rant of his. Apple is lucky Adobe didn't dump them and go Windows only after their last change to Intel processors. Adobe might be bastards when it comes to licensing and customer support (or lack thereof), but their software still powers the systems of pretty much every content developer, so they have the leverage for now until someone decides to take them on. And no, iPhoto and the rest of the iLife suite ain't going to cut it.
While there is a place for A4 chips in entertainment devices like the iPad, Apple would not be able to make enough chips to power their whole line-up - this is the reason they gave for switching to Intel chips from Motorola/IBM Power chips during the last changeover. My guess, for them even going with the A4 this time around in the iPad, is that they didn't expect they would have an enormous demand right off the bat and would be able to keep up with supply for the near future. However, add additional devices using the A4 and that situation could quickly change.
The A4 is just a shot across Intel's bow to gain purchasing and design leverage for future orders. However, I don't think Intel will take the bait because Apple needs Intel a lot more than Intel needs Apple. Steve probably doesn't like the performance/power/price ratio of the Intel Atom (neither do I) and knew he could do better this time around. However, at some point he'll need to get Intel to build-in the features he wants to take advantage of quantity manufacturing/pricing and get rid of the overhead it costs Apple to produce the A4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
"Next iPhone coming is an A+ update."
I wonder if that means an Apple ARM chip or just an odd paraphrasing.
"New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level."
I hope that finally means the removal of the optical drive from notebooks.
Even with Flash 10.1 coming to mobile platforms sometime this year the ability to play videos will still be an issue. Taking all bets on how long before Hulu announces the transition to HTML5 and/or offers app for mobile apps stores.
I don't know if you created this but it's so not funny.
I don't mean that in the sense that i'm offended, but in the sense of actual criticism of the humour (or lack of it) involved. The list of items is irrelevant to both products, the date of the "stone" is off by about 39,900 years or so, and it's just inaccurate in any case. The stone can't "multi-task" at all, and the iPad actually can. To be funny it would have to be kind of ironically true in some sense, and this just isn't.
Agreed! but it would be nice to see a world without plastic CD's/DVD's and all the attendant, plastic and cardboard packaging...not to mention the toxic ink used or all the mideast oil being used to ship this stuff. If I can download a 4gig movie wirelessly I don't see why I can't download most software?
Ps. Imagine no plastic bags, too.
The last piece of physical software that I bought was the upgrade copy of Final Cut Studio. You'll be happy to know that Apple decided to dramatically reduce the size of the packaging and not offer paper versions of all the manuals that came with previous versions. At least it's a step in the right direction.
As for movies and music, they (Apple, etc.) need to offer better quality in their movies/music to get me to buy their digital copy over it's blu-ray/CD equivalent.
Comments
Now you can say people dont watch movies on their computers but simply that isnt true. At 27" that is still a great size for movies in incredibly high resolution.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand that. The fallacy about screen size is that it's not just about screen size, it's also about distance. HD video looks a lot better than SD on 15" notebook computer, because it's right in front of you at arm's length.
Move away from optical media before the market is ready and it could be very much to Apple's peril.
I read a lot of the finger pointing between the two and it seems to be the same ol' same ol'. I don't see why Adobe and Apple can't work together to make things better. Flash is garbage on OS X, but it's not as if Apple is making it easy for Adobe. In fact, I can't remember the last time Flash crashed on my SL install since a removal and reinstall for it. No flash and no java runtime equals not being the whole internet experience as Apple claims. I don't miss Flash that much on my iPhone, but there are times when I am driving with co-workers trying to look at an online menu for some eatery and it doesn't work because it's in Flash. Other than that, no issues.
Point being that
1. Flash is proprietary and Adobe won't let anyone look at the source code, let alone work in partnership with them to fix it. And it does need fixing.
2. There is nothing useful about creating a navigation system in flash - that's just poor web design. Navigation should be accessible, with out the need for closed, proprietary technology.
3. What lack of java in mac broswers? Java Runtime, ok - not sure what your point is here - but that's not about the end user experience. I develop in ajax/jquery/javascript/css/html all day and Safari and Firefox on the mac are the best standards supporters in this arena - the only thing which hangs/crashes is the only component which isn't standards compliant and open source/non-proprietary. Flash.
The replacements for floppy drives and serial and parallel ports represented clear and obvious benefits over their predecessors. I don't, however, see a replacement for optical drives that offers such a clear and obvious benefit just yet. Yes, I agree that it will happen, but optical drives still represent a cheap and effective means of delivering and storing data.
Agreed! but it would be nice to see a world without plastic CD's/DVD's and all the attendant, plastic and cardboard packaging...not to mention the toxic ink used or all the mideast oil being used to ship this stuff. If I can download a 4gig movie wirelessly I don't see why I can't download most software?
Ps. Imagine no plastic bags, too.
Well thank goodness you can go out and buy an external blue-ray or dvd drive and plug it into your Macs trusty little USB port.
You can buy the drive, it is possible to write to it, but you can't play a disc without booting into Windows.
For me, maybe 1 in 50 Netflixed Blu-Rays arrive cracked. Never had one not play due to scratching though, so that part works well, but I rarely get a DVD that doesn't play well because of scratches.
That's been about my experience as well, and what's bad is you can't see the cracks, so you send it back as being unplayable to get another, wind up with the same version with the same problem.
Must be going through the mail processing machines or something causing it.
The problem with this event was more like talking behind someone else's back, not a direct conversation like you suggest. It needs to be said to Adobe, not preached to the Apple employee choir.
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
Don't be so naive.
I'm pretty sure Adobe and Apple have their own dialogue going on behind closed doors. It's just a shame employees can't keep their mouths shut and harm their employer by leaking the content of (private) meetings such as these.
If apple employees are so disgruntled, I'm pretty sure they're free to leave.
Before it's tome, no. When it's time, yes. This isn't the 1990s. People are well connected to the internet and to networks in their home. Installing software via CD/DVD or watching/listening to music from a disc isn't that common in personal computers these. Is it done, sure, but Apple doesn't make decisions on what some may still be doing. They have several other agendas that are helping to push this change. It will happen and those that think it won't are just as wrong as the ones that thought you can't remove the floppydrive, serial and parallel ports from computers.
We are well connected to the internet, but there are limitations on us from cable companies (i have no such limitations but i hear comcast is notorious for this) not everyone will be able to rely solely on this.
CD/DVDs provide a cheap way to distribute software and that is why it wont be going anywhere anytime soon. (im saying atleast next 5 years)
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
Don't be so naive.
A little harsh...but still a good point!
...Apple could easily support Blu-ray for their AppleTV instead of the paltry and lacking offering that it currently is. What annoys me to no end is their new upper end of devices like the new iMac both 21 & 27' models which support Blu-ray resolutions are missing this. I can see MBPs and the Mini missing this support, but damn throw us a bone.
I totally agree with you here. I was sorely disappointed to see the new iMac line not offer Blu-ray support. Unfortunately, we seem to be in the minority here and you won't find much support from many of the members here on AI.
It was a private meeting for employees - those happen you know. Companies do talk about their suppliers, competitors and affiliates during business meetings, and not always positively. This is business not a church group meeting.
Don't be so naive.
very true, what do you expect? after all, they're after his ideas, so why wouldn't he hate them?
i would love it if people that complain about lack of webcam in the ipad, how would you position the tablet when you do video conferences?
No kool-aid for me!
Steve Jobs is a genious but Apple cannot survive without Adobe, Google, or Blu-ray IMHO.
Nah.
In the first place, Google can't stop providing it's services to Apple or to Mac users, that would be against the law, so they aren't even in the equation. In the second place, BluRay will probably be supported when (as Steve himself notes), enough people have enough BluRay discs that it becomes an issue.
Thirdly, Adobe has some core software on the Mac, but it's all shite. It's written poorly, it's coded using tools from decades ago, and it's buggy and slow. There are two guys who have already written an almost complete replacement for Photoshop for instance all by themselves called Pixelmator. Two guys! Steve is right that Adobe with all it's thousands of employees is just lazy in that they haven't found the time to do this themselves.
If Adobe refused to make Mac versions of their products, you can bet that Apple would have a viable contender in place for all of them inside of a few months.
Apple doesn't want to be the producers of all the software for the Mac, they know that it's a far healthier situation if companies like Adobe develop the programs themselves. Why else would they be so patient with the heap of dog doo-doo that is Adobe CS suite? If that doesn't work though, you can be sure that Apple has several alternative plans in place.
In short, neither of these two companies, nor the BluRay consortium, have any hold over Apple in the long term and none of them could "bring Apple down" or anything of the sort.
The replacements for floppy drives and serial and parallel ports represented clear and obvious benefits over their predecessors. I don't, however, see a replacement for optical drives that offers such a clear and obvious benefit just yet. Yes, I agree that it will happen, but optical drives still represent a cheap and effective means of delivering and storing data.
Devices that only had options to connect via serial or parallel ports when your Mac had a USB port, requiring you to buy new peripherals or getting lucky with an adapter was a not a clear benefit for those that didn't do their homework.
Floppy Drives were rewritable, multiple times, while most CD drives were read only or had a single write option that used up a very expensive disc.
Yet these changes still happened despite 100% of the population not yet being ready for it.
We know most people don't do backups and the most likely way to complete a backup by HDDs, so I can't imagine your comment "optical drives still [...] means of [...] storing data." is referring to that. If we're talking about movies, I have to wonder how many people really use their notebook computers for watching DVD movies over a DVD player in a home entertainment center.
Optical drives came about when the internet wasn't as ubiquitous, when HDD costs were high. THey simply aren't party of the path of the personal notebook computer. If you think you need a DVD player in your future notebook to install apps and watch movies then you're not going to be a Mac user.
And I doubt we will ever see anyone be consistent with the technology's name. It's "Blu-ray Disc" Capital "B", no "e", hyphen, lowercase "ray" and the word "Disc". It has never been referred to as any kind of "DVD". Save yourself the trouble and use the short TLA BR-D.
great contribution to this thread, you are my hero
Apple has switched from PPC to Intel processors in a emergency basically because the PPC was too hot for laptops. As a result the cloners reared their ugly heads, but Apple bought PA Semi to make their own processors and now with the iPad announcement that it has a Apple A4 processor, goes to show Apple doesn't need Intel processors any longer.
They also switched because the AIM alliance was basically dead and Motorola could careless for Apple. The Apple A4 processor is only 1 GHz. While perfect for an iPhone or an iPad, that is by no means fast enough for a consumer/pro laptop/desktop. Apple have also stated many times that they are very happy with their relationship to Intel. They (Apple) don't get preferred treatment on new processors first before the other guys (who have more hardware, and more sales) for nothing. Apple and Intel will be in bed together a long time.
We are well connected to the internet, but there are limitations on us from cable companies (i have no such limitations but i hear comcast is notorious for this) not everyone will be able to rely solely on this.
CD/DVDs provide a cheap way to distribute software and that is why it wont be going anywhere anytime soon. (im saying atleast next 5 years)
Yep...I hope it's within 5 years!
I think Blockbuster is getting a 'taste' of the changes that are coming! As is NetFlix. The App store has changed everything, including the optimum delivery method for music, movies, books, newspapers, magazines, games and software!
While there is a place for A4 chips in entertainment devices like the iPad, Apple would not be able to make enough chips to power their whole line-up - this is the reason they gave for switching to Intel chips from Motorola/IBM Power chips during the last changeover. My guess, for them even going with the A4 this time around in the iPad, is that they didn't expect they would have an enormous demand right off the bat and would be able to keep up with supply for the near future. However, add additional devices using the A4 and that situation could quickly change.
The A4 is just a shot across Intel's bow to gain purchasing and design leverage for future orders. However, I don't think Intel will take the bait because Apple needs Intel a lot more than Intel needs Apple. Steve probably doesn't like the performance/power/price ratio of the Intel Atom (neither do I) and knew he could do better this time around. However, at some point he'll need to get Intel to build-in the features he wants to take advantage of quantity manufacturing/pricing and get rid of the overhead it costs Apple to produce the A4.
"Next iPhone coming is an A+ update."
I wonder if that means an Apple ARM chip or just an odd paraphrasing.
"New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level."
I hope that finally means the removal of the optical drive from notebooks.
Even with Flash 10.1 coming to mobile platforms sometime this year the ability to play videos will still be an issue. Taking all bets on how long before Hulu announces the transition to HTML5 and/or offers app for mobile apps stores.
I don't know if you created this but it's so not funny.
I don't mean that in the sense that i'm offended, but in the sense of actual criticism of the humour (or lack of it) involved. The list of items is irrelevant to both products, the date of the "stone" is off by about 39,900 years or so, and it's just inaccurate in any case. The stone can't "multi-task" at all, and the iPad actually can. To be funny it would have to be kind of ironically true in some sense, and this just isn't.
Agreed! but it would be nice to see a world without plastic CD's/DVD's and all the attendant, plastic and cardboard packaging...not to mention the toxic ink used or all the mideast oil being used to ship this stuff. If I can download a 4gig movie wirelessly I don't see why I can't download most software?
Ps. Imagine no plastic bags, too.
The last piece of physical software that I bought was the upgrade copy of Final Cut Studio. You'll be happy to know that Apple decided to dramatically reduce the size of the packaging and not offer paper versions of all the manuals that came with previous versions. At least it's a step in the right direction.
As for movies and music, they (Apple, etc.) need to offer better quality in their movies/music to get me to buy their digital copy over it's blu-ray/CD equivalent.