Durbin comes from a state with a l-o-n-g line of crooked mayors, govenors, senators, congressman, et.al. I wouldn't buy a sealed pack of gum from this guy, much less take anything he said seriously.
Hey- our president hails from that machine. You don't mean to think.......?
Doesn't the US Senate have enough to do that it doesn't need to investigate how the Chinese run their factories? What part of American law applies to China?
If it costs 1500 to produce an iPad where none of the workers are walked all over, have the same rights and benefits as you do and are paid a decent living wage for the work that they carry out, then maybe we should. I'm not saying this is the case here but you seem to implying it would be OK as long as you get your cheap iPad. Everybody likes low prices but if they come at someone else's expense its not right, is it? Turn the tables for a minute and argue the case from that vantage point.
On the contrary, I am looking at it from several perspectives:
What' Good for the USA
Our government (both reps and dems) is anti business (Taxes, Regulations, Wages, Unions) which forces manufacturing and jobs overseas. What good is a minimum (or good living) wage if you are out of a job? Given the choice, I'd take:
a job and pay for my own health care
versus
no job, unemployment insurance and free health care.
[aside: I got my 1st full-time job at age 15. I worked in toys, electronics, aerospace, mainframe computers. With 2 partners, I opened computer stores in Silicon Valley in 1978. I sold my interest in 1989, and retired at age 50. During those 35 years, I never received minimum wage, never received government loans or grants, never received unemployment, never was on sabbatical or unpaid leave. I have seen the US economy in good times and bad times. IMO, we are on the cusp of becoming a welfare state where most citizens are on the public weal.]
What' Good for AAPL and its shareholders
Apple would be doing a disservice to itself and its shareholders if it did not avail itself of lowest cost and highest quality manufacturing. This does not mean APPL should ignore human rights issues or politics. But, to have any influence on these, Apple has to:
1) stay in business (free enterprise & profit motive)
2) be of sufficient size (economic leverage) to exert pressure to correct the issues
How much influence do you think Apple would have over China if Apple moved all its manufacturing to: India, South Korea or Mexico?
What' Good for Apple Consumers
As a consumer I want the choice among several solutions-- trading off features/function, ease of use, quality, price, etc. To artificially inflate Apple prices to satisfy some misguided, unilateral, politically correct ideology is to ignore the reality of free markets, supply and demand, and life, in general!
In order for Apple to set the standard (in all of the above), they must be a player in the game... it cannot be done by sitting on the sidelines,
Durbin's inquiry follows Google's decision to not comply with censorship laws imposed by the Chinese government.
"Google sets a strong example in standing up to the Chinese government's continued failure to respect the fundamental human rights of free expression and privacy," Durbin said in a statement obtained by Reuters. "I look forward to learning more about whether other American companies are willing to follow Google's lead."
It's fine with me that Google is threatening to leave, but let's not make sound like it's some Mother Teresa-type move. It probably made sense for them from a business standpoint, and so they did. Nothing wrong with that, but to wrap oneself with the flag of 'freedom expression' and such could be pushing it a bit far.
Durbin comes from a state with a l-o-n-g line of crooked mayors, govenors, senators, congressman, et.al. I wouldn't buy a sealed pack of gum from this guy, much less take anything he said seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD
Hey- our president hails from that machine. You don't mean to think.......?
When I lived in Illinois (1968-71):
1) The Governor was under indictment
2) The State Supreme Court could not reach a quorum because more than 50% of the Justices were in priison
3) The Secretary of State died in office after 42 years of public service, starting with no personal fortune, never earning more than $30,000 year. He left an estate worth more than $2 million-- more than $800,000 in bills packed into shoeboxes.
It's fine with me that Google is threatening to leave, but let's not make sound like it's some Mother Teresa-type move. It probably made sense for them from a business standpoint, and so they did. Nothing wrong with that, but to wrap oneself with the flag of 'freedom expression' and such could be pushing it a bit far.
Great point - thanks! That is true for Google's motivation.
However, individuals do value acting in accordance with their values.
Apple's business presence in China has come under scrutiny from U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., who has asked the Cupertino, Calif., company for information on its human rights practices.
Apple is among 30 technology companies targeted by Durbin, who serves as the majority whip of the U.S. Senate on Capitol Hill. Others named by the senator include Facebook and Skype.
Durbin's inquiry follows Google's decision to not comply with censorship laws imposed by the Chinese government.
"Google sets a strong example in standing up to the Chinese government's continued failure to respect the fundamental human rights of free expression and privacy," Durbin said in a statement obtained by Reuters. "I look forward to learning more about whether other American companies are willing to follow Google's lead."
Last month, Apple's presence in China made the news when workers at one of Apple's overseas manufacturing partners in Suzhou, China, went on strike to protest what Wintek employees felt were unsafe working conditions and unfair wages. Workers of the plant destroyed and vandalized some equipment, and 300 riot police were dispatched to the location.
The Wintek dispute was quickly resolved with bonuses paid to employees, and the work stoppage reportedly had no effect on the plant's production. The Wintek factory is a component supplier for Apple's iPhone.
Last year, Apple released its 2009 responsibility progress report, which found that more than half of Apple's partners' factories in China were not properly paying their workers. In addition, 23 of 83 surveyed factories were not even paying some of their employers China's minimum wage.
In 2006, Apple voluntarily conducted its first audit. That survey found most facilities from manufacturer Foxconn to be in compliance.
On the sales side, Apple has made a serious of late push to establish its brand in China. Recently, the company revealed it has sold more than 200,000 iPhones through carrier China Mobile since it debuted late last year.
"We are very, very focused on the quality of the point of sale and consumer experience," Apple Chief Operating Officer Tim Cook said on the company's most recent earnings report conference call. "We would prefer to move slow because we are building the brand for the long-term and we are very much focused on the long-term in that market, because we think there is significant potential there."
The company also revealed that Mac sales in China increased nearly 100 percent year over year in the last financial quarter.
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
I totally agree. For too long we've been spoiled by artificially 'subsidized'( from cheap labor) products from nations where labor is cheap and disposable. U.S. corporations have been quick to close factories & lay off workers in the U.S. while squealing from on-high is that it's 'helped our growth'. It's only the corporate stockholders & broker who've enjoyed growth.
All should be concerned since the SCOTUS recently decreed that Corporations are equivalent to persons in their "right' of 'free speech' in the use of unlimited corporate funds to pay for candidates and initiatives.
Guess which candidate's are gonna get all the cash?
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
I understand your desire for action and let's hope that these issues will get a major push soon!!!
But, issues that effect us can not be separated as easy as drawing a line in the sand. Your actions have consequences that ripple across the world. Nobody can ignore that. The issue here is what Apple - a US company - is doing in China. That is US business!
For too long we've been spoiled by artificially 'subsidized'( from cheap labor) products from nations where labor is cheap and disposable.
'Artificially' subsidized from 'cheap labor'? The scarce suppliers of labor in otherwise abundantly wealthy countries such as India and China would love for nothing more that for you to take up the cudgels on their behalf!
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
Isn't trade between US and China, a US interest? Doesn't it affect the US economy? In other words it is the US's business.
Just as it's Canada's business that cheap lead painted (or chromium) toys made in China are kept out of Canada.
Both of our countries have to keep China in check or they'll get away with things they shouldn't.
I got my 1st full-time job at age 15. I worked in toys, electronics, aerospace, mainframe computers. With 2 partners, I opened computer stores in Silicon Valley in 1978. I sold my interest in 1989, and retired at age 50. During those 35 years, I never received minimum wage, never received government loans or grants, never received unemployment, never was on sabbatical or unpaid leave. I have seen the US economy in good times and bad times. IMO, we are on the cusp of becoming a welfare state where most citizens are on the public weal.
Well, bully for you. You are both resourceful and successful and I am sure you are just in your pride of your achievements. Your views are clearly shaped by your experiences but not everybody is as fortunate as you in the sense that not everybody (I'd say very few) have the confidence and wherewithal to do what you have done. I think maybe your world view could do with a sprinkling of compassion, but we clearly look at the world from completely different perspectives and will probably never agree, so lets just leave it at that.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
Durbin is more worried about other countries (China) than he is the state he is supposed to represent -- ILLINOIS.
Tired of politicians who have misplaced focus. Durbin should instead worry about restoring liberty to Americans & Illinoisans, and let the Communists represent their own people.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
We have a choice - every moment. We can change that. What's stopping us?
That's why I think we can only encourage this kind of move by politicians and follow along.
Doesn't matter what you otherwise think about this gentleman.
Let's change our choice - Let's change Apple - let's make a difference!
Perhaps Apple should press the Senate on its endless wars, international abduction for torture and non-publicly passed bills to support middle-east dictatorships against the will of their own people.
I can't believe these apple fanatics are actually defending near slavery in China.
People in China can't afford expensive Macs so they're sub-human? You can hate the government all you want but the people living there just want to make a living. Your $1000 Mac can feed a family for months and months.
Apple (among other companies) are barely even paying minimum wage to workers in China so this senator is criticizing them. What's the problem? Oh, can't hurt precious Apple's profit margins now. It's a sin to criticize Apple because Steve Jobs is GOD and Apple is Eden. Those sub-human Chinese workers are better off being enslaved, paying them just cuts into Apple's profits.
Well, bully for you. You are both resourceful and successful and I am sure you are just in your pride of your achievements. Your views are clearly shaped by your experiences but not everybody is as fortunate as you in the sense that not everybody (I'd say very few) have the confidence and wherewithal to do what you have done. I think maybe your world view could do with a sprinkling of compassion, but we clearly look at the world from completely different perspectives and will probably never agree, so lets just leave it at that.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
Individuals, charities, corporations, other groups, and governments recognize they have the responsibility to help right the inequities of the world.
I maintain that individuals donating directly (time, goods, money, service) is more effective-- e.g, $10 directly to the Red Cross for Haiti as opposed to $ billions to of tax money for Katrina (which ends up in some politician's freezer).
Bill Gates does much more, IMO, than all the well intentioned do-gooders who distribute other-peoples' money while taking a healthy cut of $ (or power). for themselves.
What sickens me is standing in line at the supermarket checkout watching someone buy filets, high-priced booze and cigarettes with food stamps.
Or, the guy begging on the highway divider, with a child and a cigarette hanging from his mouth... at the end of their "shift' they pack up their signs and stuff into a current-year-model car and drive off.
There are plenty of people in need, the trick is to identify them and get help directly to them!
How many failed programs (great society, etc.) do we need to examine to realize that government is not the solution... it is the problem!
Comments
Durbin comes from a state with a l-o-n-g line of crooked mayors, govenors, senators, congressman, et.al. I wouldn't buy a sealed pack of gum from this guy, much less take anything he said seriously.
Hey- our president hails from that machine. You don't mean to think.......?
Hey- our president hails from that machine. You don't mean to think.......?
I'm not 'sayin, I'm just..'sayin
If it costs 1500 to produce an iPad where none of the workers are walked all over, have the same rights and benefits as you do and are paid a decent living wage for the work that they carry out, then maybe we should. I'm not saying this is the case here but you seem to implying it would be OK as long as you get your cheap iPad. Everybody likes low prices but if they come at someone else's expense its not right, is it? Turn the tables for a minute and argue the case from that vantage point.
On the contrary, I am looking at it from several perspectives:
What' Good for the USA
Our government (both reps and dems) is anti business (Taxes, Regulations, Wages, Unions) which forces manufacturing and jobs overseas. What good is a minimum (or good living) wage if you are out of a job? Given the choice, I'd take:
a job and pay for my own health care
versus
no job, unemployment insurance and free health care.
[aside: I got my 1st full-time job at age 15. I worked in toys, electronics, aerospace, mainframe computers. With 2 partners, I opened computer stores in Silicon Valley in 1978. I sold my interest in 1989, and retired at age 50. During those 35 years, I never received minimum wage, never received government loans or grants, never received unemployment, never was on sabbatical or unpaid leave. I have seen the US economy in good times and bad times. IMO, we are on the cusp of becoming a welfare state where most citizens are on the public weal.]
What' Good for AAPL and its shareholders
Apple would be doing a disservice to itself and its shareholders if it did not avail itself of lowest cost and highest quality manufacturing. This does not mean APPL should ignore human rights issues or politics. But, to have any influence on these, Apple has to:
1) stay in business (free enterprise & profit motive)
2) be of sufficient size (economic leverage) to exert pressure to correct the issues
How much influence do you think Apple would have over China if Apple moved all its manufacturing to: India, South Korea or Mexico?
What' Good for Apple Consumers
As a consumer I want the choice among several solutions-- trading off features/function, ease of use, quality, price, etc. To artificially inflate Apple prices to satisfy some misguided, unilateral, politically correct ideology is to ignore the reality of free markets, supply and demand, and life, in general!
In order for Apple to set the standard (in all of the above), they must be a player in the game... it cannot be done by sitting on the sidelines,
*
Durbin's inquiry follows Google's decision to not comply with censorship laws imposed by the Chinese government.
"Google sets a strong example in standing up to the Chinese government's continued failure to respect the fundamental human rights of free expression and privacy," Durbin said in a statement obtained by Reuters. "I look forward to learning more about whether other American companies are willing to follow Google's lead."
What nonsense: see this article from the Financial Times, http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2008/...ese-dissident/
It's fine with me that Google is threatening to leave, but let's not make sound like it's some Mother Teresa-type move. It probably made sense for them from a business standpoint, and so they did. Nothing wrong with that, but to wrap oneself with the flag of 'freedom expression' and such could be pushing it a bit far.
Durbin comes from a state with a l-o-n-g line of crooked mayors, govenors, senators, congressman, et.al. I wouldn't buy a sealed pack of gum from this guy, much less take anything he said seriously.
Hey- our president hails from that machine. You don't mean to think.......?
When I lived in Illinois (1968-71):
1) The Governor was under indictment
2) The State Supreme Court could not reach a quorum because more than 50% of the Justices were in priison
3) The Secretary of State died in office after 42 years of public service, starting with no personal fortune, never earning more than $30,000 year. He left an estate worth more than $2 million-- more than $800,000 in bills packed into shoeboxes.
Ahhh.... doing well, by doing good!
*
What nonsense: see this article from the Financial Times, http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2008/...ese-dissident/
It's fine with me that Google is threatening to leave, but let's not make sound like it's some Mother Teresa-type move. It probably made sense for them from a business standpoint, and so they did. Nothing wrong with that, but to wrap oneself with the flag of 'freedom expression' and such could be pushing it a bit far.
Great point - thanks! That is true for Google's motivation.
However, individuals do value acting in accordance with their values.
Apple's business presence in China has come under scrutiny from U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., who has asked the Cupertino, Calif., company for information on its human rights practices.
Apple is among 30 technology companies targeted by Durbin, who serves as the majority whip of the U.S. Senate on Capitol Hill. Others named by the senator include Facebook and Skype.
Durbin's inquiry follows Google's decision to not comply with censorship laws imposed by the Chinese government.
"Google sets a strong example in standing up to the Chinese government's continued failure to respect the fundamental human rights of free expression and privacy," Durbin said in a statement obtained by Reuters. "I look forward to learning more about whether other American companies are willing to follow Google's lead."
Last month, Apple's presence in China made the news when workers at one of Apple's overseas manufacturing partners in Suzhou, China, went on strike to protest what Wintek employees felt were unsafe working conditions and unfair wages. Workers of the plant destroyed and vandalized some equipment, and 300 riot police were dispatched to the location.
The Wintek dispute was quickly resolved with bonuses paid to employees, and the work stoppage reportedly had no effect on the plant's production. The Wintek factory is a component supplier for Apple's iPhone.
Last year, Apple released its 2009 responsibility progress report, which found that more than half of Apple's partners' factories in China were not properly paying their workers. In addition, 23 of 83 surveyed factories were not even paying some of their employers China's minimum wage.
In 2006, Apple voluntarily conducted its first audit. That survey found most facilities from manufacturer Foxconn to be in compliance.
On the sales side, Apple has made a serious of late push to establish its brand in China. Recently, the company revealed it has sold more than 200,000 iPhones through carrier China Mobile since it debuted late last year.
"We are very, very focused on the quality of the point of sale and consumer experience," Apple Chief Operating Officer Tim Cook said on the company's most recent earnings report conference call. "We would prefer to move slow because we are building the brand for the long-term and we are very much focused on the long-term in that market, because we think there is significant potential there."
The company also revealed that Mac sales in China increased nearly 100 percent year over year in the last financial quarter.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
All should be concerned since the SCOTUS recently decreed that Corporations are equivalent to persons in their "right' of 'free speech' in the use of unlimited corporate funds to pay for candidates and initiatives.
Guess which candidate's are gonna get all the cash?
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
I understand your desire for action and let's hope that these issues will get a major push soon!!!
But, issues that effect us can not be separated as easy as drawing a line in the sand. Your actions have consequences that ripple across the world. Nobody can ignore that. The issue here is what Apple - a US company - is doing in China. That is US business!
therefore, all workers are happy individuals in a land of bliss and harmony.
from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
so what's durbin's problem?
For too long we've been spoiled by artificially 'subsidized'( from cheap labor) products from nations where labor is cheap and disposable.
'Artificially' subsidized from 'cheap labor'? The scarce suppliers of labor in otherwise abundantly wealthy countries such as India and China would love for nothing more that for you to take up the cudgels on their behalf!
[end sarcasm]
but wait... the people's republic of china is still a communist, socialist state.
therefore, all workers are happy individuals in a land of bliss and harmony.
from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
so what's durbin's problem?
China may be communist, but I am not sure it would qualify for 'socialist.'
Would prefer to see the good Seantor from Illinois placing his efforts on Health care, green energy and economy. Otherwords, stay out of other country's business.
Isn't trade between US and China, a US interest? Doesn't it affect the US economy? In other words it is the US's business.
Just as it's Canada's business that cheap lead painted (or chromium) toys made in China are kept out of Canada.
Both of our countries have to keep China in check or they'll get away with things they shouldn't.
I got my 1st full-time job at age 15. I worked in toys, electronics, aerospace, mainframe computers. With 2 partners, I opened computer stores in Silicon Valley in 1978. I sold my interest in 1989, and retired at age 50. During those 35 years, I never received minimum wage, never received government loans or grants, never received unemployment, never was on sabbatical or unpaid leave. I have seen the US economy in good times and bad times. IMO, we are on the cusp of becoming a welfare state where most citizens are on the public weal.
Well, bully for you. You are both resourceful and successful and I am sure you are just in your pride of your achievements. Your views are clearly shaped by your experiences but not everybody is as fortunate as you in the sense that not everybody (I'd say very few) have the confidence and wherewithal to do what you have done. I think maybe your world view could do with a sprinkling of compassion, but we clearly look at the world from completely different perspectives and will probably never agree, so lets just leave it at that.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
Tired of politicians who have misplaced focus. Durbin should instead worry about restoring liberty to Americans & Illinoisans, and let the Communists represent their own people.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
We have a choice - every moment. We can change that. What's stopping us?
That's why I think we can only encourage this kind of move by politicians and follow along.
Doesn't matter what you otherwise think about this gentleman.
Let's change our choice - Let's change Apple - let's make a difference!
U.S. Sen. [...] its human rights practices. [...]
Perhaps Apple should press the Senate on its endless wars, international abduction for torture and non-publicly passed bills to support middle-east dictatorships against the will of their own people.
I can't believe these apple fanatics are actually defending near slavery in China.
People in China can't afford expensive Macs so they're sub-human? You can hate the government all you want but the people living there just want to make a living. Your $1000 Mac can feed a family for months and months.
Apple (among other companies) are barely even paying minimum wage to workers in China so this senator is criticizing them. What's the problem? Oh, can't hurt precious Apple's profit margins now. It's a sin to criticize Apple because Steve Jobs is GOD and Apple is Eden. Those sub-human Chinese workers are better off being enslaved, paying them just cuts into Apple's profits.
Well, bully for you. You are both resourceful and successful and I am sure you are just in your pride of your achievements. Your views are clearly shaped by your experiences but not everybody is as fortunate as you in the sense that not everybody (I'd say very few) have the confidence and wherewithal to do what you have done. I think maybe your world view could do with a sprinkling of compassion, but we clearly look at the world from completely different perspectives and will probably never agree, so lets just leave it at that.
From an ideological pov however, it is rather depressing that we would rather see people suffer the indignities of poverty and worse in order to have a better life for ourselves. You may rationalize it but the fact remains that we knowingly turn a blind eye to huge social and economical injustices. It has happened before by another name.
Individuals, charities, corporations, other groups, and governments recognize they have the responsibility to help right the inequities of the world.
I maintain that individuals donating directly (time, goods, money, service) is more effective-- e.g, $10 directly to the Red Cross for Haiti as opposed to $ billions to of tax money for Katrina (which ends up in some politician's freezer).
Bill Gates does much more, IMO, than all the well intentioned do-gooders who distribute other-peoples' money while taking a healthy cut of $ (or power). for themselves.
What sickens me is standing in line at the supermarket checkout watching someone buy filets, high-priced booze and cigarettes with food stamps.
Or, the guy begging on the highway divider, with a child and a cigarette hanging from his mouth... at the end of their "shift' they pack up their signs and stuff into a current-year-model car and drive off.
There are plenty of people in need, the trick is to identify them and get help directly to them!
How many failed programs (great society, etc.) do we need to examine to realize that government is not the solution... it is the problem!
*