Boycott the Salvation Army
<a href="http://www.pflag.org/advocacy/action.html"; target="_blank">http://www.pflag.org/advocacy/action.html</a>;
After the actions of the Salvation Army this past year, I'm supporting PFLAG's efforts to boycott the Salvation Army's kettles this Christmas. This isn't to say that I don't support the good works that the SA does. But I feel like their decision to discriminate against gays and lesbians leaves me little choice. There are plenty of other charities that don't come with the Army's fundamentalist baggage.
Not to sound like an advertisement for PFLAG, I was just wondering what you guys thought about the protest. Some of my more conservative friends think it's too much, given the current state of affairs. But IMHO, that's all the more reason for the Salvation Army to back away from its non-inclusive stance on gays and lesbians, and realize how important acceptance and unity really is.
I had some trouble with PFLAG's PDF so I made my own. It's at <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/poortaylor/.Public/sa.pdf"; target="_blank">http://homepage.mac.com/poortaylor/.Public/sa.pdf</a>;
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: poor taylor ]</p>
After the actions of the Salvation Army this past year, I'm supporting PFLAG's efforts to boycott the Salvation Army's kettles this Christmas. This isn't to say that I don't support the good works that the SA does. But I feel like their decision to discriminate against gays and lesbians leaves me little choice. There are plenty of other charities that don't come with the Army's fundamentalist baggage.
Not to sound like an advertisement for PFLAG, I was just wondering what you guys thought about the protest. Some of my more conservative friends think it's too much, given the current state of affairs. But IMHO, that's all the more reason for the Salvation Army to back away from its non-inclusive stance on gays and lesbians, and realize how important acceptance and unity really is.
I had some trouble with PFLAG's PDF so I made my own. It's at <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/poortaylor/.Public/sa.pdf"; target="_blank">http://homepage.mac.com/poortaylor/.Public/sa.pdf</a>;
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: poor taylor ]</p>
Comments
Hate is NOT a family value. Nor is it a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, or Taoist value.
<strong>Are they also boycotting the exclusively Gay & Lesbian charities?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not just an issue of where the money goes. The reason behind the boycott is that SA discriminates against gay and lesbian employees. A quick Google search will turn up the relevant info.
As far as I know, there aren't any gay and lesbian charities who discriminate against heterosexual employees
Why not just avoid their stores and give in the buckets which are used for their charity work. The SA would feel the sting, but it is not them in the end that is punished but the people that they help. Unless of course you have a problem with people who are possibly more conservative than you about sexual orientation helping other people who need it badly.
<strong>
Hate is NOT a family value. Nor is it a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, or Taoist value.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, but homosexuality isn't a big value of most of those religions either.
Why is it that every time an organization takes a stand against a controversial issue, they're automatically accused of being hateful?
I'm a Christian, and although I don't agree with homosexuality, I treat those PEOPLE with respect and love. I hate the act, not the person. Sounds like SA is the same way.
I bet some of the people that SA's donations gets distributed to are homosexual.
There's nothing wrong with that stance, but denying employment and partner benefits to gays and lesbians doesn't really fit with my idea of "respect."
[quote]I bet some of the people that SA's donations gets distributed to are homosexual.<hr></blockquote>
Undoubtedly so. But when making my decision as to how to tithe with my money, I'll be supporting organizations who don't discriminate (and i'm not talking about specifically gay and lesbian groups).
We also refuse to do business with the Boy Scouts for the same reason, although the Girl Scouts is still a tricky issue. Turns out the individual GS troops have the latitude to set their own standards, so I have to ask before buying cookies. Would be nice if the central organization could simply come out officially on the side of tolerance (acceptance being too much to ask I suppose), but at least I have options if my daughter really wants to join in a few years.
-- ShadyG
<strong>I and my family are indeed participating in the SA boycott, which was not easy when we moved to LA and were looking to furnish our apartment.
-- ShadyG</strong><hr></blockquote>
Out of the Closet thrift stores carry a lot of stuff that you can furnish you house with. They are located all over Los Angeles.
And I will not give a dime to the SA either. You can argue 'till the cows come home that they are a charitable or religious organization, but the fact is that they practice discrimination. And that is wrong.
Now why do you all hate the Boy Scouts so much? What did I ever do? They do let in gays and non-Christians in case you didn't know.
<strong>the Girl Scouts is still a tricky issue. Turns out the individual GS troops have the latitude to set their own standards, so I have to ask before buying cookies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Excuse me little girl? I have to know your troop's position on lesbians before I can buy some cookies".
"Position? I think they prefer 69."
<strong>Boy Scout right here baby!
Now why do you all hate the Boy Scouts so much? What did I ever do? They do let in gays and non-Christians in case you didn't know.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They don't let homosexuals be scout leaders and such. 60 minutes had an episode about it.
The troop determines the scout master. And no longer do they take religion etc. into account.
<strong>
And I will not give a dime to the SA either. You can argue 'till the cows come home that they are a charitable or religious organization, but the fact is that they practice discrimination. And that is wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay, I'm puzzled:
When did society as a whole decide all of a sudden that NOT supporting homosexual movements was discrimination instead of just free choice?
I don't support pedophiles, drunks, drug addicts, compulsive gamblers, the homeless -- name your dysfunctional lifestyle -- either. Am I discriminating against all them too?
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but come on! Society is getting more and more screwed up all the time because we have gotten to the point of saying, "Ah, to hell with good healthy family values. Acceptance and inclusion of everyone's lifestyle is more important because we don't want to piss anyone off and lose money from them."
I'm more willing to support an organization that takes a stance on something I agree with, rather than open itself up to anything and everyone just because it's profitable or gains membership.
My stance is NOT discrimination. My stance supports the solid, rich, healthy structure of the God-fearing family. Not the watered-down bastardization of the world that everyone else seems to want.
Call me crazy, or call me conservative. Please forgive me for caring!
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
Of course you are! Do you not see a difference between a gay person and a pedophile/drunk/addict? While a pedophile is a criminal, and drunks or addicts situations are the products of not being able to control their use of a certain substance, gay people are only guilty of being oriented differently than the rest of us. I don't see how that puts them in the same category with those others. As for the homeless, there's a million different reasons why someone might be homeless, some justified.
[quote]My stance is NOT discrimination. My stance supports the solid, rich, healthy structure of the God-fearing family. Not the watered-down bastardization of the world that everyone else seems to want.<hr></blockquote>
No, your stance IS discrimination. Whether you consider that a bad thing is the question. If you don't think it's wrong, then more power to you. But don't play semantics by skirting around the fact that you DO support discrimination. After all, there is such a thing as GOOD discrimination. If you think that's what the salvation army/boy scouts are doing, then more power to you.
[quote]So maybe you might destroy one of the better charitable organizations in the US. I am sure it will be worth it. BTW, what they are doing is both legal and moral.<hr></blockquote>
The intent is not to destroy. The intent is to show them that people who would otherwise support them are being alienated by their exclusive stance. The Salvation Army's discriminatory stance prevents me from supporting them. That doesn't mean that I don't support any charity, or only gay-focused ones. Totally not the case. If they decide to stay that way then go for it, but I'm sure as hell not giving money to people who actually think that a person's sexual orientation has shit to do with how well they do their job.
I know how fashionable it is to be un-PC these days and all, but we're talking about an organization that makes personnel decisions based on something inherent about people. If they were discriminating against some racial minority, or against women, i have a feeling that some of you would be singing a different tune. Why is that? Despite what you think about gay people, why should they be denied employment because of it?
Do you actually believe that a woman who likes to have sex with other women makes her incompetent at her job? If not, then how could you justify terminating her?
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>
Do you actually believe that a woman who likes to have sex with other women makes her incompetent at her job? If not, then how could you justify terminating her?</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's something completely different. The issue at hand is that the SA is not giving benefits to PARTNERS of their gay employees.
I agree with the laws that are in place for protecting paid employees of a company or organization. You're right, a person's sexual *preference* has nothing to do with their job performance.
But if the SA wants to take whatever moral stance their allowed by law and decline gay employees' partners benefits, I have no problem with that. If Boy Scouts of America wants to deny gay men from being scout leaders (a volunteer position), then more power to them.
These organizations are simply taking stances on moral issues that current law allows for (and sometimes takes stands on: as was the case with Boys Scouts in the Supreme Court)
Since never! There is widespread hatred, intolerance and bias against gays. The FBI reports that hate crimes against gays and lesbians has increased every year (since 1995). Two of "Christianity's" most visible and powerful people, (Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell) stir up, encourage and preach hatred, and millions of people of faith take this filth and drivel as "gospel", spreading the hate and passing it to the next generation. Gay people are regularly assaulted and harrassed in everyday life, even by police officers. And the number of reported anti-gay crimes is a tiny tip of a massive iceberg.
[quote]I don't support pedophiles, drunks, drug addicts, compulsive gamblers, the homeless -- name your dysfunctional lifestyle -- either.
Am I discriminating against all them too?<hr></blockquote>
There is far more science to suggest that being gay is a biological condition than a matter of arbitrary choice, to the ire of traditionalists.
And yes, it sounds exactly as if you are discriminating against people of alternative ways.
[quote]Sorry if that sounds harsh, but come on! Society is getting more and more screwed up all the time because we have gotten to the point of saying, "Ah, to hell with good healthy family values. Acceptance and inclusion of everyone's lifestyle is more important because we don't want to piss anyone off and lose money from them." I'm more willing to support an organization that takes a stance on something I agree with, rather than open itself up to anything and everyone just because it's profitable or gains membership. My stance is NOT discrimination. My stance supports the solid, rich, healthy structure of the God-fearing family. Not the watered-down bastardization of the world that everyone else seems to want. Call me crazy, or call me conservative. Please forgive me for caring!<hr></blockquote>
Hatred, intolerance, and discrimination are not "family values". Not in mine anyway. And the traditional concept of "God-fearing" is a medieval unhealthy attitude, one that has spawned the Taliban, The Inquisition, and more vile institutions that I could care to name. How about God-loving instead? Or is that too "gay" for you?
<strong>
1) Since never! There is widespread hatred, intolerance and bias against gays. The FBI reports that hate crimes against gays and lesbians has increased every year (since 1995). Two of "Christianity's" most visible and powerful people, (Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell) stir up, encourage and preach hatred, and millions of people of faith take this filth and drivel as "gospel", spreading the hate and passing it to the next generation. Gay people are regularly assaulted and harrassed in everyday life, even by police officers. And the number of reported anti-gay crimes is a tiny tip of a massive iceberg.
2) There is far more science to suggest that being gay is a biological condition than a matter of arbitrary choice, to the ire of traditionalists.
And yes, it sounds exactly as if you are discriminating against people of alternative ways.
3) Hatred, intolerance, and discrimination are not "family values". Not in mine anyway. And the traditional concept of "God-fearing" is a medieval unhealthy attitude, one that has spawned the Taliban, The Inquisition, and more vile institutions that I could care to name. How about God-loving instead? Or is that too "gay" for you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) Nice rhetoric, and it plays well in the media too. Care to give out a few quotes that say to kill or abuse gays by these men? I know that they don't condone the homosexual lifestyle, but that hardly makes them preachers of hatred.
2) Actually, there is just as much science debunking the science that claims it. Depends on your agenda, you can make results look like whatever you want, just be sure your sampling is correct. Junk Science.
3) Really, my impression was that "The fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom." Fear of God is not the problem. Use of religion to push your own petty agenda is the problem. And no, loving God is not Gay. What, Christians can't use the word love along with a male name and not feel they are being gay? Talk about "spreading the hate and passing it to the next generation". If you teach your children this I fear for my childrens safety around them.
Edit to fix a sentence that was a bit odd...
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Do you want me to tell you all that I think homosexuality is right? I can't and won't do that, because I know better. Other comments:
1) Even I as a Christian don't support most stances that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell take on issues. It's unfortunate that a lot of people turn away from Christianity because they think everyone who believes in Jesus Christ think the same way those two men do. The truth is, they're just more visible than the majority.
2) In no way, shape, or form do I condone or agree with violence or criminal activity against gays. Like I've said in previous posts, I love the person, not the act of homosexuality. No person deserves to go through the abuse that homosexuals often have to face. That said:
3) Just because homosexuality is becoming the politically correct thing to accept and accomodate, doesn't mean I agree with it. From a religious perspective, I can back up my beliefs with scripture references out the yahzoo. I won't do that, because most of you probably believe in the Bible as much as you can throw it, and wouldn't listen anyway.
4) Again, the accusation of hatred and intolerance. I DO NOT understand how I can be accused of hatred by standing up for one of my fundamental Christian beliefs. If anything, I should be accused of too much love! I don't want gays to have to face the hatred, violence, persecution, and intolerance that they face; because I see there is a better life in store if they make the CHOICE to turn their lives around.
I have personally found happiness and comfort in believing in a God who wants what is right and just. Because of this belief, I cannot dilute myself to what society (in all it's amazing wisdom
5) God-fearing: adj. - Doing my best to screw up as little as possible here on earth because I know I'm going to have to answer for it later. Hardly Taliban or extremist.
Oh, and Samantha, I'm going to disregard that last comment.