Ok... Now this is bizarre. Can someone really explain to me why it would be SO BAD for Apple to also go with VZW and other carriers?
It's better for the consumer AND it's better for Apple (long-term).
Why is this such a hard concept for you pro-AT&T people to grasp? Also, this concept of "pro-AT&T" is truly making my head hurt. Why anyone would "support" AT&T is truly beyond my understanding.
First off: I'm not pro-AT&T. In fact, I don't have an iPhone yet because of AT&T.
But I completely understand Apple's position on this. A Verizon iPhone would be bad for Apple.
Currently Apple builds one iPhone. It works around the world with multiple carriers. This matches Apple's ease of use model. If they were to build a Verizon version of the iPhone, it would be for one segment of one market. When a Verizon iPhone user went on holiday overseas and their iPhone wouldn't work, Apple would catch the the flack. "My friend's iPhone worked in Europe. Why won't mine!!!" People don't want a technical explanation, they just want it to work.
While most countries regulated (yeah there's that nasty word) their carriers, requiring them to standardize on one system, the USA took a hands off approach. This let carriers develop separate standards. This allowed them to further lock in customers.
The simple fact is, until the other US carriers move to world standard protocols (as will happen with 4G), there is little to no chance Apple will support them. Apple is all about standards and one-size fits all. The American cell industry is not.
We know or can guess, that AT&T is funding the damn iPad, and because of it, we all get stuck with only one carrier for a bit longer.
Steve's real dream or "Biggest thing I've ever created" was the flucking of folks who want their Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint or whatever.
Hell, it would be in Apples best interest to give AT&T a few billion to up-grade the network. Hell what ever they give them could be in shares, and with a few billion they could own AT&T and fix whatever is wrong themselves.
Even Apple can only stand so much negative press before they have to fell it.
- The iPad isn't even out, and folks have some issues with it.
- AT&T is NOT in Apples best interest (at least from what we see and know)
If AT&T is padding Apple, then they have got their nose, tongue so far up Steve's rss that they
can clean his colon.
He may go down in history for not creating the greatest product, but for getting the most out of a company, in the process of hurting his company.
There is NO way, Steve isn't hearing these kinds of complaints, and concerns, so based on that, whatever deal he / Apple has with AT&T has got to be worth ever penny, dollar or whatever they are getting.
Knowing that based on what folks say, that the number of iPhone sales would increase 2 or 3 fold, tells me, they are getting a TON from AT&T. Why else would any one stay with one company that seems to be hurting them more then helping them?
The only people who didn't see this coming are the Verizon fanbois...
Actually I have Verizon and I didn't believe any of the rumors that the iPhone was coming to Verizon. TMobile maybe but I dont see it coming to Verizon anytime soon.
Those analysts should have just asked me. I've said all along that Apple won't be on Verizon until they have very good 4G coverage. CDMA is near end-of-life.
You guys got that? Good, so shut up with your idiotic speculation and start using your brain.
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
Not in my experience. I was with Verizon for the last 10+ years and I dropped as many calls with them on average as I do with AT&T. As a matter of fact, my neighbor (on Verizon) still gets crap signal at his house while I get full 3G from AT&T right next door.
People might say that CDMA is too limited a market or will be soon be replaced so Apple shouldn't bother. However, other companies such as Motorola seem to think it is worthwhile and are busy releasing competing smartphones. Analysts have predicted that if Apple releases a CDMA phone it could mean an extra 10 million iPhone sales over the next two years.
And it is not just the short term. Once somebody buys an Android phone and start investing in apps for it, then it becomes much less likely these people will ever switch to the iPhone.
2. I'm going to try out the Nexus on Verizon. If I like it enough then I'll drop AT&T. If not then I'll pay AT&T by the month until the iPhone moves to Verizon.
Recently FCC certified Nexus One phone with 3G frequences supported by AT&T. And AT&T is planning to introduce 5 Android phones.
Now I know what all that wailing and gnashing of teeth I heard earlier today was - the Verizon zealots crying over not getting the iPhone on their beloved network in a few months as they hoped/wished/expected.
Sarcasm aside, that's too bad...more networks equals more choice equals good for consumers.
The simple fact is, until the other US carriers move to world standard protocols (as will happen with 4G), there is little to no chance Apple will support them. Apple is all about standards and one-size fits all. The American cell industry is not.
I hope so. But there is a possibility that different carriers will use different frequencies for their 4G networks and it will be impossible to switch to another carrier.
i was just at a coffee shop this morning in hayes valley (sf). i was talking to the owner outside and there were no clouds in the sky. he was attempting to make a call on his iphone. i asked him how he liked it. he said the dropped calls were far too frequent. then, he proceeded to show me how many 'bars' he had at that moment. it was more like a 'flat line' than a bar.
it seems illegal that at&t should be charging any fee for that. now here's where a class action would actually be a worthwhile thing.
i, personally, will not get an iphone, mainly because i hate at&t—and this was long before the iphone came along. they're too big, and don't care about the customer.
quite frankly, i think they're too concerned about short-term profits and paying out dividends to their investors to care about their infrastructure—kinda like our government.
Not in my experience. I was with Verizon for the last 10+ years and I dropped as many calls with them on average as I do with AT&T. As a matter of fact, my neighbor (on Verizon) still gets crap signal at his house while I get full 3G from AT&T right next door.
Good point, and bad point.
Good because on a national level, they all suck. They all have dead zones, dropped calls, etc, etc. My experience over the last decade is just that with all the players (AT&T, Cingular, Verizon, Nextel, Sprint, T-Mobile) - I've had them all, they all have issues.
Bad because for most people who never leave their own little neck of the world, the rest of the world doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what you get on your street, it matters what they get on their street.
The best cell provider is the one that has a signal in the places you frequent, at the price you like, with the phone you want.
All the rest of this T-Mobile vs Verizon vs AT&T vs GSM vs CDMA is just a bunch of fanboi noise and chest thumping.
Apple and ATT&T have their respective very good reasons for continuing their exclusivity agreements. They get to conduct their business in the way they see fit. They obviously aren't oblivious to all this whining. So they must consider weathering the criticism worth it or bearable in relation to the benefits.
Going on what I've observed myself with my iPhone service, I just replaced my 1st-gen phone with a 3GS, and the performance and service is much better than with my first iPhone. But there were also no problems with the first one, either. Over three years, very infrequent dropped calls and occasional weak signals, but overall quite acceptable.
None of us know the real reasons for the continuance of exclusivity. But I would guess that it has to do with mutual technological dependence.
The evidence seems to be that there are lots of happy iPhone customers, and both Apple and AT&T are making good profits. Nothing wrong with any of that.
To those for whom AT&T hasn't yet established good or any service, I don't see why AT&T wouldn't be working on expanding its infrastructure. So you just have to be patient. It's billions of dollars worth and that takes time.
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
I get that with AT&T ... I didn't with Sprint. (never used VZ)
I've never had a problem getting a signal with ATT ... all over the US ... not to mention that I get a GSM signal all over the WORLD! (while that's useful to me, I'll concede that it would be a useless feature to most Americans.)
Ok... Now this is bizarre. Can someone really explain to me why it would be SO BAD for Apple to also go with VZW and other carriers?
I don't know that it's bad, but the ball was firmly in Verizon's court and they rejected the iPhone first. Sucks to be them now. I'm sure there were further discussions even after that point, and a deal obviously still couldn't be worked out. Verizon, apparently, believes their own press releases about how superior their network is and how that's all that matters
Finally, for all the posturing about how it's no big deal to have another SKU with CDMA chips - yes it is! All you have to do is compare Apple's profitability to other makers and it's pretty obvious they know what they are doing. Why do you think Southwest Airlines is far more profitable than United? They have a very simplified fleet that reaps savings in training, maintenance, parts and on down the line. It's a huge ripple effect and common sense to anyone who has had to manage any kind of product or system in the real world. Simplicity pays off huge in multiple, complex, interrelated ways that aren't obvious until you start diving into the details.
If true, it's a done deal. No verizon iPhone until 4G is prevelant - two years or more at least. How long was 3G out before chips that had the power profiles Apple was comfortable with to finally launch the iPhone 3G?
I can't say I'm surprised because I'm not - it was rather obvious when it became apparent Verizon passed on the iPhone the first time that a CDMA iPhone was highly unlikely.
well i won't play armchair CEO here...if they extend the exclusive with AT&T, limiting their growth by staying with only one carrier and ignoring the other 150 million potential customers with the other big 3 then they must have a good reason to do it. AT&T is probably paying a super "bribe" for Apple to determine that they'd rather keep their marketshare limited...
It must be good business for Apple, but bad for consumers...if AT&T is desperate and willing to shell out even more to Apple just to keep it exclusive it means higher rates for iPhone users as there won't be any competition.
Get real. There are no 150 million other users in the US.
This 2011 is a clear shot at both AT&T and Verizon to get their 4G services ready and then the options will still only be open to both, IF APPLE CONTROLS ITS PRODUCTS on their network.
Verizon either changes it's entire business philosophy or continues to see losses.
Yep. Doesn't matter to Apple if the customer is having a good experience as long they're getting paid.
While that's one aspect (and I submit there are far more like me that have a perfectly fine experience with AT&T than those that don't - you don't sell tens of millions of something if the experience is complete crap) it's obvious Verizon didn't want to play ball. Whatever the sticking points were, we may never known but given Verizon's past history again I am puzzled why anyone is honestly surprised at this.
Given their past stubbornness, AT&T will have to shoot to 75% of the smartphone market (not unpossible) before Verizon will come to their senses.
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
That's a load of crap. No one carrier has 100% (or even 90%) coverage. It's impossible. It may stink where you are - if so, sucks to be you - but enough of the V hyperbole, please. It may work for TV commercials but not here in the real world.
Comments
Ok... Now this is bizarre. Can someone really explain to me why it would be SO BAD for Apple to also go with VZW and other carriers?
It's better for the consumer AND it's better for Apple (long-term).
Why is this such a hard concept for you pro-AT&T people to grasp? Also, this concept of "pro-AT&T" is truly making my head hurt. Why anyone would "support" AT&T is truly beyond my understanding.
First off: I'm not pro-AT&T. In fact, I don't have an iPhone yet because of AT&T.
But I completely understand Apple's position on this. A Verizon iPhone would be bad for Apple.
Currently Apple builds one iPhone. It works around the world with multiple carriers. This matches Apple's ease of use model. If they were to build a Verizon version of the iPhone, it would be for one segment of one market. When a Verizon iPhone user went on holiday overseas and their iPhone wouldn't work, Apple would catch the the flack. "My friend's iPhone worked in Europe. Why won't mine!!!" People don't want a technical explanation, they just want it to work.
While most countries regulated (yeah there's that nasty word) their carriers, requiring them to standardize on one system, the USA took a hands off approach. This let carriers develop separate standards. This allowed them to further lock in customers.
The simple fact is, until the other US carriers move to world standard protocols (as will happen with 4G), there is little to no chance Apple will support them. Apple is all about standards and one-size fits all. The American cell industry is not.
We know or can guess, that AT&T is funding the damn iPad, and because of it, we all get stuck with only one carrier for a bit longer.
Steve's real dream or "Biggest thing I've ever created" was the flucking of folks who want their Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint or whatever.
Hell, it would be in Apples best interest to give AT&T a few billion to up-grade the network. Hell what ever they give them could be in shares, and with a few billion they could own AT&T and fix whatever is wrong themselves.
Even Apple can only stand so much negative press before they have to fell it.
- The iPad isn't even out, and folks have some issues with it.
- AT&T is NOT in Apples best interest (at least from what we see and know)
If AT&T is padding Apple, then they have got their nose, tongue so far up Steve's rss that they
can clean his colon.
He may go down in history for not creating the greatest product, but for getting the most out of a company, in the process of hurting his company.
There is NO way, Steve isn't hearing these kinds of complaints, and concerns, so based on that, whatever deal he / Apple has with AT&T has got to be worth ever penny, dollar or whatever they are getting.
Knowing that based on what folks say, that the number of iPhone sales would increase 2 or 3 fold, tells me, they are getting a TON from AT&T. Why else would any one stay with one company that seems to be hurting them more then helping them?
Well duh!
The only people who didn't see this coming are the Verizon fanbois...
Actually I have Verizon and I didn't believe any of the rumors that the iPhone was coming to Verizon. TMobile maybe but I dont see it coming to Verizon anytime soon.
Those analysts should have just asked me. I've said all along that Apple won't be on Verizon until they have very good 4G coverage. CDMA is near end-of-life.
You guys got that? Good, so shut up with your idiotic speculation and start using your brain.
Bravo!
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
Not in my experience. I was with Verizon for the last 10+ years and I dropped as many calls with them on average as I do with AT&T. As a matter of fact, my neighbor (on Verizon) still gets crap signal at his house while I get full 3G from AT&T right next door.
And it is not just the short term. Once somebody buys an Android phone and start investing in apps for it, then it becomes much less likely these people will ever switch to the iPhone.
2. I'm going to try out the Nexus on Verizon. If I like it enough then I'll drop AT&T. If not then I'll pay AT&T by the month until the iPhone moves to Verizon.
Recently FCC certified Nexus One phone with 3G frequences supported by AT&T. And AT&T is planning to introduce 5 Android phones.
The entire world uses GSM (except some US and Japanese carriers) ... why bother with a CDMA phone??
You are not right. Yes, GSM is still most popular standard, but there are a lof of CDMA2000 networks in the world - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CDMA2000_networks
The main issue is the different frequencies they use (450, 800, 850, 1800, 1900 MHz)
Sarcasm aside, that's too bad...more networks equals more choice equals good for consumers.
The simple fact is, until the other US carriers move to world standard protocols (as will happen with 4G), there is little to no chance Apple will support them. Apple is all about standards and one-size fits all. The American cell industry is not.
I hope so. But there is a possibility that different carriers will use different frequencies for their 4G networks and it will be impossible to switch to another carrier.
it seems illegal that at&t should be charging any fee for that. now here's where a class action would actually be a worthwhile thing.
i, personally, will not get an iphone, mainly because i hate at&t—and this was long before the iphone came along. they're too big, and don't care about the customer.
quite frankly, i think they're too concerned about short-term profits and paying out dividends to their investors to care about their infrastructure—kinda like our government.
Not in my experience. I was with Verizon for the last 10+ years and I dropped as many calls with them on average as I do with AT&T. As a matter of fact, my neighbor (on Verizon) still gets crap signal at his house while I get full 3G from AT&T right next door.
Good point, and bad point.
Good because on a national level, they all suck. They all have dead zones, dropped calls, etc, etc. My experience over the last decade is just that with all the players (AT&T, Cingular, Verizon, Nextel, Sprint, T-Mobile) - I've had them all, they all have issues.
Bad because for most people who never leave their own little neck of the world, the rest of the world doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what you get on your street, it matters what they get on their street.
The best cell provider is the one that has a signal in the places you frequent, at the price you like, with the phone you want.
All the rest of this T-Mobile vs Verizon vs AT&T vs GSM vs CDMA is just a bunch of fanboi noise and chest thumping.
Apple and ATT&T have their respective very good reasons for continuing their exclusivity agreements. They get to conduct their business in the way they see fit. They obviously aren't oblivious to all this whining. So they must consider weathering the criticism worth it or bearable in relation to the benefits.
Going on what I've observed myself with my iPhone service, I just replaced my 1st-gen phone with a 3GS, and the performance and service is much better than with my first iPhone. But there were also no problems with the first one, either. Over three years, very infrequent dropped calls and occasional weak signals, but overall quite acceptable.
None of us know the real reasons for the continuance of exclusivity. But I would guess that it has to do with mutual technological dependence.
The evidence seems to be that there are lots of happy iPhone customers, and both Apple and AT&T are making good profits. Nothing wrong with any of that.
To those for whom AT&T hasn't yet established good or any service, I don't see why AT&T wouldn't be working on expanding its infrastructure. So you just have to be patient. It's billions of dollars worth and that takes time.
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
I get that with AT&T ... I didn't with Sprint. (never used VZ)
I've never had a problem getting a signal with ATT ... all over the US ... not to mention that I get a GSM signal all over the WORLD! (while that's useful to me, I'll concede that it would be a useless feature to most Americans.)
Ok... Now this is bizarre. Can someone really explain to me why it would be SO BAD for Apple to also go with VZW and other carriers?
I don't know that it's bad, but the ball was firmly in Verizon's court and they rejected the iPhone first. Sucks to be them now. I'm sure there were further discussions even after that point, and a deal obviously still couldn't be worked out. Verizon, apparently, believes their own press releases about how superior their network is and how that's all that matters
Finally, for all the posturing about how it's no big deal to have another SKU with CDMA chips - yes it is! All you have to do is compare Apple's profitability to other makers and it's pretty obvious they know what they are doing. Why do you think Southwest Airlines is far more profitable than United? They have a very simplified fleet that reaps savings in training, maintenance, parts and on down the line. It's a huge ripple effect and common sense to anyone who has had to manage any kind of product or system in the real world. Simplicity pays off huge in multiple, complex, interrelated ways that aren't obvious until you start diving into the details.
If true, it's a done deal. No verizon iPhone until 4G is prevelant - two years or more at least. How long was 3G out before chips that had the power profiles Apple was comfortable with to finally launch the iPhone 3G?
I can't say I'm surprised because I'm not - it was rather obvious when it became apparent Verizon passed on the iPhone the first time that a CDMA iPhone was highly unlikely.
well i won't play armchair CEO here...if they extend the exclusive with AT&T, limiting their growth by staying with only one carrier and ignoring the other 150 million potential customers with the other big 3 then they must have a good reason to do it. AT&T is probably paying a super "bribe" for Apple to determine that they'd rather keep their marketshare limited...
It must be good business for Apple, but bad for consumers...if AT&T is desperate and willing to shell out even more to Apple just to keep it exclusive it means higher rates for iPhone users as there won't be any competition.
Get real. There are no 150 million other users in the US.
This 2011 is a clear shot at both AT&T and Verizon to get their 4G services ready and then the options will still only be open to both, IF APPLE CONTROLS ITS PRODUCTS on their network.
Verizon either changes it's entire business philosophy or continues to see losses.
Yep. Doesn't matter to Apple if the customer is having a good experience as long they're getting paid.
While that's one aspect (and I submit there are far more like me that have a perfectly fine experience with AT&T than those that don't - you don't sell tens of millions of something if the experience is complete crap) it's obvious Verizon didn't want to play ball. Whatever the sticking points were, we may never known but given Verizon's past history again I am puzzled why anyone is honestly surprised at this.
Given their past stubbornness, AT&T will have to shoot to 75% of the smartphone market (not unpossible) before Verizon will come to their senses.
Because with Verizon you can actually get signal 99.99999% of the time.
That's a load of crap. No one carrier has 100% (or even 90%) coverage. It's impossible. It may stink where you are - if so, sucks to be you - but enough of the V hyperbole, please. It may work for TV commercials but not here in the real world.