This thread is now ruining by the Three Trollketeers, which is too bad since Hulu moving to HTML5 video tags was a good conversation.We never even got into how long it would likely take them or if they'll make a dedicated iPad app to deliver their content in a more controlled manner. If they'll then offer it to the iPhone and other mobiles that won't be able to play their Flash video.
BTW, Saw a demo of Flash 10.1 on a NExus One with a 1GHz CPU. It was either 15fps of low-rez video or choppy low-rez video. Not looking good for Flash, but it was still a Beta. The problem is that most smartphones are 400GHz to 600GHz, not 1GHz.
Let's play F, Marry, KIll:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Hmm... changing the game to Ignore, Ignore, Ignore:
Any device that doesn't support Flash will be dead by 2011. HTML5 is not mature enough to replace it on the web and there is too much content currently in Flash that is on the web that will not make the conversion for many reasons I can post when you are coherant.
This is one of the stupidest posts ever in this forum - and that's saying a lot.
Let's look at the facts:
1. iPhone and iPod Touch do not support Flash
2. iPhone and iPod Touch have been very successful
3. iPad will not support Flash - which increases the number of non-Flash systems by either a small or large number, depending on sales.
4. The number of non-Flash sites is INCREASING over the past couple of years. There are a number of big sites that have been very vocal about their new non-Flash sites.
So, when you add those factors up, how do you reach your bizarre conclusion? Those factors suggest (very, very strongly) that it's going to be EASIER for a non-Flash device to survive in the future than in the past
Add to that all the reported stories of other mobile devices that are said to be dropping Flash (see solipsism's post above), and it becomes clear that Flash is no longer a necessity for a mobile device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusYoung
You obviously don't go to CNN, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX etc on anything but an iPhone App because you won't get their video. They are all in Flash.
Well, you almost managed to top your first post for stupidity, but not quite.
Who cares whether you can access those sites with flash when there's an iPhone app that lets you access them. If you want to to to ESPN, you can do so with the app rather than the browser. AND, if you use the app, your battery life doesn't drop by 90% and the phone doesn't melt in your hands like it would with Flash.
Your arguments for the 'necessity' of Flash look weaker all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill
This "myth" that Apple has shunned Flash on their mobile platforms because it "competes" with iTMS needs to be debunked. It's so bogus that it really doesn't even rise to the level of myth. It's FUD, pure and simple. The only people who would actually believe it are either ignorant or stupid. The only ones that write it have an agenda, and are mostly trolls and astroturfists.
There are any number of factors that could be cited that cast dispersion on the validity of this "theory", but the simple fact that Google has for some time now been converting the YouTube archive over to H.264 format, and Apple's obvious support for that effort, ought to suffice as evidence enough.
Not to mention that Apple has made very public statements (which knowledgeable tech people generally agree with) that Flash is an energy pig, causes unending crashes (one of the main reasons why it runs in a sandbox in Snow Leopard so it can't bring Safari down), and is a security risk.
You don't make loud, public statements that are outright lies unless you want to get sued by Adobe and/or shareholders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage
Flash does for mobile platforms, what porcupine-quill suits do for the balloon folding industry.
Does anyone think this might mean that we would be able to get Hulu on the Iphone as well? I would hope so! That would be great.
I'd think so. There are just too many mobile devices out there that Hulu could tap into. Even the ones that are getting are getting Flash this year, most won't be able to play Flash video from Hulu because they aren't powerful enough.
As far as what does business have to do with the web...
All major networks, news and entertainment are on the web. They are businesses and they drive what will be the standards.
You're processor testing is flawed. Run the same test on a PC and you'll get different results. The same applies for what browser you run it in
When you run the test on a Mac booting into Windows and then the exact same Mac booting in Snow Leopard and see Flash eating CPU resource like it is candy you have every right to say tha Adobe is managed by idiots for designing the playback interface that is so stupid when running in MacOS.
The Macintosh in 1984 was the first computer to make extensive use of the mouse.
The GUI existed in research labs pre-Apple. Apple was the first to market it to consumers as a product.
It is a standard design for notebooks. Apple was the first to design it.
Apple was the first to abandon floppy for optical media.
Apple was the first to abandon parallel ports for USB/FireWire.
Apple was the first to make extensive use of WiFi.
How many phones are touchscreen post iPhone vs the number that were touchscreen pre iPhone?
But we already know you don't believe anything you are saying, you are just attempting to be inflammatory.
Well, to be fair Apple swiped the idea for the Mouse and GUI from Zerox....
Also Apple pushed hard for FireWire to be the serial bus standard and only widely adopted USB when it became obvious that it was going to be the dominate serial bus.
No need to do all that. Just make an mobile device viewer, than an option for desktop OSes to save on resources (and battery) while Flash is the default, then HTML5 video tags as the default with Flash as an option and finally dropping Flash as a way to play video from your site. These transitions take time.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
Ditto. That is a small price to pay for a good app. I'm sure it would be a hit, too. Though making it stream through Safari to the video player would mean that Apple couldn't police it and it would work on most of the smartphones out of the gate. It doesn't seem like a big deal now that SlingPlayer has been approved, but last year this would have likely been an issue.
Well, to be fair Apple swiped the idea for the Mouse and GUI from Zerox....
Its true Apple got the idea from Xerox. Its one thing to have an idea in a lab, its an entirely different place to actually sell the idea in the open market.
Quote:
Also Apple pushed hard for FireWire to be the serial bus standard and only widely adopted USB when it became obvious that it was going to be the dominate serial bus.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
Sure, why not, I'll go along with that. Hulu is really the single major thing that I wanted with Flash, this would be enough for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Its true Apple got the idea from Xerox. Its one thing to have an idea in a lab, its an entirely different place to actually sell the idea in the open market.
Not only that, I thought Xerox PARC was compensated by Apple for the ideas, they licensed it properly, like they're supposed to, and adapted it to a consumer system.
Sure, why not, I'll go along with that. Hulu is really the single major thing that I wanted with Flash, this would be enough for me.
That is what most people want Flash for. Video. I still haven't seen a single mobile demo that demonstrated video sites, like Hulu, being able to play correctly via Flash. I can't do it in 480p with my Atom netbook so I don't see how an ARM-based system could do it at this point. Eventually yes, but not right now, and what cost.
Quote:
Not only that, I thought Xerox PARC was compensated by Apple for the ideas, they licensed it properly, like they're supposed to, and adapted it to a consumer syst
em.
That is how I know the history. It was all on the up and up.
Next week: SAN JOSE, CA ? Xerox sues Apple over 30 year old patent violations...
This is one of the stupidest posts ever in this forum - and that's saying a lot.
Let's look at the facts:
1. iPhone and iPod Touch do not support Flash
2. iPhone and iPod Touch have been very successful
3. iPad will not support Flash - which increases the number of non-Flash systems by either a small or large number, depending on sales.
4. The number of non-Flash sites is INCREASING over the past couple of years. There are a number of big sites that have been very vocal about their new non-Flash sites.
So, when you add those factors up, how do you reach your bizarre conclusion? Those factors suggest (very, very strongly) that it's going to be EASIER for a non-Flash device to survive in the future than in the past
Add to that all the reported stories of other mobile devices that are said to be dropping Flash (see solipsism's post above), and it becomes clear that Flash is no longer a necessity for a mobile device.
My vote for quote of the week.
Lets be honest and fair both ways. The iPhone and iPod Touch were never billed as the best web experience ever. Without Flash support, I think a lot of people will be disappointed at the web experience with the iPad based on how it is advertised.
Also, I do not like having to run a special app to see the web's video content. With an app, the author ( or approval agent ) can limit what can and can't be seen by the end user. Not a move in the right direction in my opinion. We need a more open web experience not a more restricted one.
HTML5 does seem to be the answer, but of course it's codex is still based propitiatory software. I would consider a move from Flash to H.264 a sideways move at best. While H.264 might offer better efficiency, it does not address the main issue of being a propitiatory system. It also is not even a standard yet. It may be a few years before it is sorted out....
I think the best thing for Apple to do is to work with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 on the iPad and let the user decide if they want to use it or not. I am always for more options, not less....
Hmm... changing the game to Ignore, Ignore, Ignore:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Gee, thanks promoting me to running this thread, that rumor of you being promoted to the Lord Almighty must have been true.
But the question does arise, why do you think Apple invented the mouse, or in the other case, why that other person (iBill I think) thinks Apple invented the GUI? Yes Apple has brought some pre-existing technologies to their computers and made them more popular, or improved them, but inventing them, that is taking the whole fanboy thing a little too far.
The Macintosh in 1984 was the first computer to make extensive use of the mouse.
But they didn't invent it which was the statement made, Xerox sold a machine a few years before Apple using a mouse. And the mouse was invented some 20 years before Apple used it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
The GUI existed in research labs pre-Apple. Apple was the first to market it to consumers as a product.
Again, this is history, the fact is Apple didn't invent it, which again was the statement made. And technically, again Xerox sole a computer a number of years before Apple that used a GUI (and the above mouse).
Remember making something popular doesn't mean you invented it.
HTML5 does seem to be the answer, but of course it's codex is still based propitiatory software. I would consider a move from Flash to H.264 a sideways move at best. While H.264 might offer better efficiency, it does not address the main issue of being a propitiatory system. It also is not even a standard yet. It may be a few years before it is sorted out....
I think the best thing for Apple to do is to work with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 on the iPad and let the user decide if they want to use it or not. I am always for more options, not less....
HTML5 contains no codecs. Browsers still have to support codecs for the HTML5 video tag to function. WebKit-based browsers support H.264 while Mozilla's Gecko(Firefox) supports Ogg. IE9 will likely support H.264.
Flash and H.264 aren't fighting. Flash is the player, the replacement is HTML5, Javascript and CSS. Flash players can stream H.264, too. It's how all the quality video players have encoding their videos for some time now.
The writing is on the wall. Flash for streaming video will lose marketshare from here on out. It's just too inefficient. On top of that, decoding higher and higher amounts of streaming video is not a light process for mobiles. The last thing they need is Flash robbing all the resources before the decoding can begin.
Adobe still can't make a decent version of Flash for the Mac. They still don't have Flash 10.1 with H.264 HW acceleration, like they have in the Beta version for Windows. Adobe also doesn't have Flash for all the other mobile platforms out there so this is not just a problem with OS X but with every mobile OS. Mozilla has disabled Flash 10.1 in Firefox Mobile on Maemo for Nokia devices because it makes browsing nearly impossible. That is before you even try to play video from Hulu and other such sites.
Flash is great in many ways, but playing video on mobiles is not one of them.
But the question does arise, why do you think Apple invented the mouse, or in the other case, why that other person (iBill I think) thinks Apple invented the GUI?
"Invented" is not a synonym for "industry standard".
The fact that an Ipad Flash plug-in already exist but Apple wont allow it pretty much says it all on how controlling Apple really is. Apple is getting worst than China over internet censorship. The funniest thing about flash this week is Disney ceo approving the Ipad while Disney websites are so full of flash they won?t even work without it?
The Web is not going to change overnight on still unavailable hardware, when the Ipad ships, most websites won?t fully work in it. I will buy an Ipad only if it?s hackable so we can bypass the app-store or if Flash works when it ships.
Comments
BTW, Saw a demo of Flash 10.1 on a NExus One with a 1GHz CPU. It was either 15fps of low-rez video or choppy low-rez video. Not looking good for Flash, but it was still a Beta. The problem is that most smartphones are 400GHz to 600GHz, not 1GHz.
Let's play F, Marry, KIll:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Hmm... changing the game to Ignore, Ignore, Ignore:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Any device that doesn't support Flash will be dead by 2011. HTML5 is not mature enough to replace it on the web and there is too much content currently in Flash that is on the web that will not make the conversion for many reasons I can post when you are coherant.
This is one of the stupidest posts ever in this forum - and that's saying a lot.
Let's look at the facts:
1. iPhone and iPod Touch do not support Flash
2. iPhone and iPod Touch have been very successful
3. iPad will not support Flash - which increases the number of non-Flash systems by either a small or large number, depending on sales.
4. The number of non-Flash sites is INCREASING over the past couple of years. There are a number of big sites that have been very vocal about their new non-Flash sites.
So, when you add those factors up, how do you reach your bizarre conclusion? Those factors suggest (very, very strongly) that it's going to be EASIER for a non-Flash device to survive in the future than in the past
Add to that all the reported stories of other mobile devices that are said to be dropping Flash (see solipsism's post above), and it becomes clear that Flash is no longer a necessity for a mobile device.
You obviously don't go to CNN, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX etc on anything but an iPhone App because you won't get their video. They are all in Flash.
Well, you almost managed to top your first post for stupidity, but not quite.
Who cares whether you can access those sites with flash when there's an iPhone app that lets you access them. If you want to to to ESPN, you can do so with the app rather than the browser. AND, if you use the app, your battery life doesn't drop by 90% and the phone doesn't melt in your hands like it would with Flash.
Your arguments for the 'necessity' of Flash look weaker all the time.
This "myth" that Apple has shunned Flash on their mobile platforms because it "competes" with iTMS needs to be debunked. It's so bogus that it really doesn't even rise to the level of myth. It's FUD, pure and simple. The only people who would actually believe it are either ignorant or stupid. The only ones that write it have an agenda, and are mostly trolls and astroturfists.
There are any number of factors that could be cited that cast dispersion on the validity of this "theory", but the simple fact that Google has for some time now been converting the YouTube archive over to H.264 format, and Apple's obvious support for that effort, ought to suffice as evidence enough.
Not to mention that Apple has made very public statements (which knowledgeable tech people generally agree with) that Flash is an energy pig, causes unending crashes (one of the main reasons why it runs in a sandbox in Snow Leopard so it can't bring Safari down), and is a security risk.
You don't make loud, public statements that are outright lies unless you want to get sued by Adobe and/or shareholders.
Flash does for mobile platforms, what porcupine-quill suits do for the balloon folding industry.
My vote for quote of the week.
On another note, and excuse me if I am doing something wrong here, but has anyone heard of this site and how legit it is?
http://www.YouriPad4free.com/
Would love an iPad, but not sure I want to pay the full price for it
Does anyone think this might mean that we would be able to get Hulu on the Iphone as well? I would hope so! That would be great.
On another note, and excuse me if I am doing something wrong here, but has anyone heard of this site and how legit it is?
http://www.YouriPad4free.com/
Would love an iPad, but not sure I want to pay the full price for it
If it's anything like the 10,000,000 other sites claiming to offer you free electronics, it's a scam.
Of course, feel free to take your chances to see if it's the one legitimate site on the planet offering the same thing.
Does anyone think this might mean that we would be able to get Hulu on the Iphone as well? I would hope so! That would be great.
I'd think so. There are just too many mobile devices out there that Hulu could tap into. Even the ones that are getting are getting Flash this year, most won't be able to play Flash video from Hulu because they aren't powerful enough.
You'll have to wait until 2011 on the MLB call.
As far as what does business have to do with the web...
All major networks, news and entertainment are on the web. They are businesses and they drive what will be the standards.
You're processor testing is flawed. Run the same test on a PC and you'll get different results. The same applies for what browser you run it in
When you run the test on a Mac booting into Windows and then the exact same Mac booting in Snow Leopard and see Flash eating CPU resource like it is candy you have every right to say tha Adobe is managed by idiots for designing the playback interface that is so stupid when running in MacOS.
What did Apple do with the development of the mouse to make it an industry standard?
The Macintosh in 1984 was the first computer to make extensive use of the mouse.
Technically this existed pre-Apple as well
The GUI existed in research labs pre-Apple. Apple was the first to market it to consumers as a product.
That isn't really an industry standard
It is a standard design for notebooks. Apple was the first to design it.
Originally Posted by extremeskater
Apple has never set the industry standard for anything. They have never owned enough market share in anything to set a standard.
Apple was the first to abandon floppy for optical media.
Apple was the first to abandon parallel ports for USB/FireWire.
Apple was the first to make extensive use of WiFi.
How many phones are touchscreen post iPhone vs the number that were touchscreen pre iPhone?
But we already know you don't believe anything you are saying, you are just attempting to be inflammatory.
The Macintosh in 1984 was the first computer to make extensive use of the mouse.
The GUI existed in research labs pre-Apple. Apple was the first to market it to consumers as a product.
It is a standard design for notebooks. Apple was the first to design it.
Apple was the first to abandon floppy for optical media.
Apple was the first to abandon parallel ports for USB/FireWire.
Apple was the first to make extensive use of WiFi.
How many phones are touchscreen post iPhone vs the number that were touchscreen pre iPhone?
But we already know you don't believe anything you are saying, you are just attempting to be inflammatory.
Well, to be fair Apple swiped the idea for the Mouse and GUI from Zerox....
Also Apple pushed hard for FireWire to be the serial bus standard and only widely adopted USB when it became obvious that it was going to be the dominate serial bus.
This site needs to do some policing of its boards. This is ridiculous.
No need to do all that. Just make an mobile device viewer, than an option for desktop OSes to save on resources (and battery) while Flash is the default, then HTML5 video tags as the default with Flash as an option and finally dropping Flash as a way to play video from your site. These transitions take time.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
Ditto. That is a small price to pay for a good app. I'm sure it would be a hit, too. Though making it stream through Safari to the video player would mean that Apple couldn't police it and it would work on most of the smartphones out of the gate. It doesn't seem like a big deal now that SlingPlayer has been approved, but last year this would have likely been an issue.
Well, to be fair Apple swiped the idea for the Mouse and GUI from Zerox....
Its true Apple got the idea from Xerox. Its one thing to have an idea in a lab, its an entirely different place to actually sell the idea in the open market.
Also Apple pushed hard for FireWire to be the serial bus standard and only widely adopted USB when it became obvious that it was going to be the dominate serial bus.
Apple used both USB and Firewire from the start.
I'd be willing to pay up to $4.99 for a well designed iPod touch/iPad Hulu app.
Sure, why not, I'll go along with that. Hulu is really the single major thing that I wanted with Flash, this would be enough for me.
Its true Apple got the idea from Xerox. Its one thing to have an idea in a lab, its an entirely different place to actually sell the idea in the open market.
Not only that, I thought Xerox PARC was compensated by Apple for the ideas, they licensed it properly, like they're supposed to, and adapted it to a consumer system.
Sure, why not, I'll go along with that. Hulu is really the single major thing that I wanted with Flash, this would be enough for me.
That is what most people want Flash for. Video. I still haven't seen a single mobile demo that demonstrated video sites, like Hulu, being able to play correctly via Flash. I can't do it in 480p with my Atom netbook so I don't see how an ARM-based system could do it at this point. Eventually yes, but not right now, and what cost.
Not only that, I thought Xerox PARC was compensated by Apple for the ideas, they licensed it properly, like they're supposed to, and adapted it to a consumer syst
em.
That is how I know the history. It was all on the up and up.
Next week: SAN JOSE, CA ? Xerox sues Apple over 30 year old patent violations...
This is one of the stupidest posts ever in this forum - and that's saying a lot.
Let's look at the facts:
1. iPhone and iPod Touch do not support Flash
2. iPhone and iPod Touch have been very successful
3. iPad will not support Flash - which increases the number of non-Flash systems by either a small or large number, depending on sales.
4. The number of non-Flash sites is INCREASING over the past couple of years. There are a number of big sites that have been very vocal about their new non-Flash sites.
So, when you add those factors up, how do you reach your bizarre conclusion? Those factors suggest (very, very strongly) that it's going to be EASIER for a non-Flash device to survive in the future than in the past
Add to that all the reported stories of other mobile devices that are said to be dropping Flash (see solipsism's post above), and it becomes clear that Flash is no longer a necessity for a mobile device.
My vote for quote of the week.
Lets be honest and fair both ways. The iPhone and iPod Touch were never billed as the best web experience ever. Without Flash support, I think a lot of people will be disappointed at the web experience with the iPad based on how it is advertised.
Also, I do not like having to run a special app to see the web's video content. With an app, the author ( or approval agent ) can limit what can and can't be seen by the end user. Not a move in the right direction in my opinion. We need a more open web experience not a more restricted one.
HTML5 does seem to be the answer, but of course it's codex is still based propitiatory software. I would consider a move from Flash to H.264 a sideways move at best. While H.264 might offer better efficiency, it does not address the main issue of being a propitiatory system. It also is not even a standard yet. It may be a few years before it is sorted out....
I think the best thing for Apple to do is to work with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 on the iPad and let the user decide if they want to use it or not. I am always for more options, not less....
Let's play F, Marry, KIll:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Hmm... changing the game to Ignore, Ignore, Ignore:
AngusYoung, TEKSTUD, jfanning?
Gee, thanks promoting me to running this thread, that rumor of you being promoted to the Lord Almighty must have been true.
But the question does arise, why do you think Apple invented the mouse, or in the other case, why that other person (iBill I think) thinks Apple invented the GUI? Yes Apple has brought some pre-existing technologies to their computers and made them more popular, or improved them, but inventing them, that is taking the whole fanboy thing a little too far.
The Macintosh in 1984 was the first computer to make extensive use of the mouse.
But they didn't invent it which was the statement made, Xerox sold a machine a few years before Apple using a mouse. And the mouse was invented some 20 years before Apple used it.
The GUI existed in research labs pre-Apple. Apple was the first to market it to consumers as a product.
Again, this is history, the fact is Apple didn't invent it, which again was the statement made. And technically, again Xerox sole a computer a number of years before Apple that used a GUI (and the above mouse).
Remember making something popular doesn't mean you invented it.
HTML5 does seem to be the answer, but of course it's codex is still based propitiatory software. I would consider a move from Flash to H.264 a sideways move at best. While H.264 might offer better efficiency, it does not address the main issue of being a propitiatory system. It also is not even a standard yet. It may be a few years before it is sorted out....
I think the best thing for Apple to do is to work with Adobe to get Flash 10.1 on the iPad and let the user decide if they want to use it or not. I am always for more options, not less....
HTML5 contains no codecs. Browsers still have to support codecs for the HTML5 video tag to function. WebKit-based browsers support H.264 while Mozilla's Gecko(Firefox) supports Ogg. IE9 will likely support H.264.
Flash and H.264 aren't fighting. Flash is the player, the replacement is HTML5, Javascript and CSS. Flash players can stream H.264, too. It's how all the quality video players have encoding their videos for some time now.
The writing is on the wall. Flash for streaming video will lose marketshare from here on out. It's just too inefficient. On top of that, decoding higher and higher amounts of streaming video is not a light process for mobiles. The last thing they need is Flash robbing all the resources before the decoding can begin.
Adobe still can't make a decent version of Flash for the Mac. They still don't have Flash 10.1 with H.264 HW acceleration, like they have in the Beta version for Windows. Adobe also doesn't have Flash for all the other mobile platforms out there so this is not just a problem with OS X but with every mobile OS. Mozilla has disabled Flash 10.1 in Firefox Mobile on Maemo for Nokia devices because it makes browsing nearly impossible. That is before you even try to play video from Hulu and other such sites.
Flash is great in many ways, but playing video on mobiles is not one of them.
But the question does arise, why do you think Apple invented the mouse, or in the other case, why that other person (iBill I think) thinks Apple invented the GUI?
"Invented" is not a synonym for "industry standard".
The Web is not going to change overnight on still unavailable hardware, when the Ipad ships, most websites won?t fully work in it. I will buy an Ipad only if it?s hackable so we can bypass the app-store or if Flash works when it ships.