It doesn't work that way, nor is it so simple. It's up to you to back up your own claims. We haven't seen the articles you've seen, you have a better idea of what you're looking for than we would. Usually, it's up to the person that makes an positive claim of a fact to back it up when asked.
Also, I haven't seen anything that says for sure, it's all speculation so far that I have found, or based on unnamed sources. Reasonable speculation, mind you, but not something that justifies an absolute statement.
As far as I could tell, there is currently no copy/paste functionality. We were told that ?developers will hear more about that? at Microsoft?s MIX conference next month, though it was implied that it would be about why copy and paste ?won?t be necessary? rather than when it was coming.
It doesn't work that way, nor is it so simple. It's up to you to back up your own claims. We haven't seen the articles you've seen, you have a better idea of what you're looking for than we would. Usually, it's up to the person that makes an positive claim of a fact to back it up when asked.
Also, I haven't seen anything that says for sure, it's all speculation so far that I have found, or based on unnamed sources. Reasonable speculation, mind you, but not something that justifies an absolute statement.
Snore...
You do know the guy that is demanding proof is the same one that thinks Microsoft is a major owner of Apple? My idea was that some research would have done him good.
In any case, Charlie Kindel responded via twitter to a question about the origin of WP7S and said it's a new version of CE.
That said, I don't understand the resistance to the idea that WP7S is based on a new version of Windows CE! I'd love to hear some other alternative ideas of where people think the WP7S OS came from!
I mean, I have read that Motorola is going their way and Palm has WebOS and Android is on a bunch of HTC phones instead of MS, does that mean MS will have just this one model phone and they have to "Make" it themselves? Or is the OS available to other phone manufacturers and who will license it? I think even Dell is looking elsewhere, not sure though.
Also, is this CDMA phone? Which carrier will have this?
Not interested in getting one. Just have some questions. There is more then enough comments about MS belated attempt to alter their phone OS. Just because I agree with most of them, I won't be superfluous...
Carrier partnerships are far and wide, including AT&T, Deutsche Telekom AG, Orange, SFR, Sprint, Telecom Italia, Telefónica, Telstra, T-Mobile USA, Verizon Wireless and Vodafone, while hardware partners include Dell, Garmin-Asus, HTC, HP, LG, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, Toshiba and Qualcomm.
If true, that is very nice starting lineup, particularly 9 months before actual launch. Of course, we'll see when the time comes.
This is most likely not a product that immediately compete with the iPhone.
Instead, I'm of the opinion that it would more or less steal the Android/BB's thunder.
The iPhone has significant competitive advantages including a strong, growing market share, and a strong brand follower-ship.
They continue to offer a unique product that competitors have not managed to truly imitate.
That being said, the rest of the smartphone market is not competing with the iPhone, they are competing among themselves.
It was predicted correctly that the Android will eat into WinMo's market share.
The same should apply to this recent development.
In other words,
People who want an iPhone will buy an iPhone, they will not even consider alternatives.
People who want a smartphone, on the other hand, may consider this new offering.
Give or take, that's my take on what will happen on the short-term.
Also:
stfu trollers/fanbois/pundits, kthxbye
You are seeing things too black and white.
I have an iPhone, and when the time for update comes I'll consider everything available to find what works best for me. That is because I got iPhone as it was best suited for my needs, not because it is iPhone.
Likewise, my wife.
Likewise, my mate.
Of course we might end with iPhone 4 or 5 if we decide it is the best for us, but we will consider others without bias.
Couple of our clients got iPhone because we told them they are simple to use and have everything they need. What they will take next time depends on what we will recommend them. They are middle-age, down to Earth people who don't get Apple hype and don't even know who Steve Jobs is.
In fact, of all people I personally know having iPhone, only one will likely get another no matter what. That is one out of ten, more or less.
Of course 10 people experience is purely anecdotal. Still, how many other iPhone users think the same? I think there is a number.
As far as i knew MS is supporting HTML 5 but its a double edged sword seeing as how it can kill off Silverlight.
Nothing had really been announced that WM7 will or wont support Flash or silverlight. Its got 9 months till release so heres hoping Flash is gonna be there
And Adobe has 9 more months to come up with decent Flash for mobile platform
I think it looks pretty good. After being bashed on the head by the iPhone and Android et al they finally get that people don't want their desktop OS on a phone. I've used many WinMo phones (mostly HTC and Palm) and it was just an ugly experience with the stylus navigating around but at least HTC made that experience more tolerable (loved their phones).
I'm surprised they didn't call it Zune OS or MSPhone OS.
As far as I could tell, there is currently no copy/paste functionality. We were told that ?developers will hear more about that? at Microsoft?s MIX conference next month, though it was implied that it would be about why copy and paste ?won?t be necessary? rather than when it was coming.
How 2007.
Right... You're going to cruxify a non-released OS for not having copy/paste at the current moment (I've underlined that word in your own article quote for you)? How do you know that it won't have it when it's officially released at the end of the year? It is still software under work, after all.
If Apple had their software in-work with the same issue, you'd claim the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not like they would release their mobile OS into the wild without it and continue to not have it until after 2 iterations, right?
What about the idea that MS might have come up with a way to not need the traditional text selection copy/paste? If that's the case, I'd really be interested in seeing what they came up with. As either Engadget or Gizmodo said (I can't remember which one), MS has "out-Appled Apple" with WP7S, so anything's game at this point...
Right... You're going to cruxify a non-released OS for not having copy/paste at the current moment (I've underlined that word in your own article quote for you)? How do you know that it won't have it when it's officially released at the end of the year? It is still software under work, after all.
If Apple had their software in-work with the same issue, you'd claim the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not like they would release their mobile OS into the wild without it and continue to not have it until after 2 iterations, right?
What about the idea that MS might have come up with a way to not need the traditional text selection copy/paste? If that's the case, I'd really be interested in seeing what they came up with. As either Engadget or Gizmodo said (I can't remember which one), MS has "out-Appled Apple" with WP7S, so anything's game at this point...
I was thinking the same thing. How 2007? How about How 2007, 2008 and half of 2009? Apple released their iPhone OS without copy and paste for 2 years and the Windows trolls loved to rant over how this was a glaring, embarrassing omission. Meanwhile, the Apple fans argued that it was not a necessity, that Apple would include it when the timing was right and other priorities were completed. I argued the same thing in Apple's defense. To now attempt to use that same feature as a cludge to bash a not yet released OS from MS seems petty and not a little ironic.
To now attempt to use that same feature as a cludge to bash a not yet released OS from MS seems petty and not a little ironic.
There's a a lot of irony these days.
I find the viewpoint "the iPhone is best because it has so much software" to be ironic, given that the Mac's lack of software was defended on a "quality, not quantity" basis.
I find the viewpoint "the iPhone is best because it has so much software" to be ironic, given that the Mac's lack of software was defended on a "quality, not quantity" basis.
Any port in a storm, I guess...
No more ironic than WinMo users dumping on the iPhone for using too simple an interface. Their argument is usually that WinMo being inconsistent, non-intuitive or requiring visits to XDA for usable or stable ROMs to flash somehow makes it targeted at 'power' users. They tend to confuse 'poorly designed' with 'advanced'.
No more ironic than WinMo users dumping on the iPhone for using too simple an interface. Their argument is usually that WinMo being inconsistent, non-intuitive or requiring visits to XDA for usable or stable ROMs to flash somehow makes it targeted at 'power' users. They tend to confuse 'poorly designed' with 'advanced'.
That's more silly than ironic. WinMo sucks. I hope that version 7 will be better, but I doubt it will be better than the then-available alternatives.
I had a WinMo phone for a few weeks. I tried to like it. But it sucked, and I got a Treo instead.
Now I have an iPhone, which is better in many ways, but infuriatingly dumbed down in too many ways for my taste.
Now I have an iPhone, which is better in many ways, but infuriatingly dumbed down in too many ways for my taste.
What's wrong with it being simplified? That is sort of the point. You should be able to pick it up and be able to use it right away. That is the nature of well designed, intuitive software. You think it would be better if it was a confused, inconsistent mess?
What's wrong with it being simplified? That is sort of the point. You should be able to pick it up and be able to use it right away. That is the nature of well designed, intuitive software. You think it would be better if it was a confused, inconsistent mess?
No, of course not. There are an infinite number of choices between "dumbed down" and "a confused, inconsistent mess"
What's up with the black/white extremes presented here as false dichotomies? I see them so often that I wonder.
What's up with the black/white extremes presented here as false dichotomies? I see them so often that I wonder.
You mean like calling it dumbed down?
It takes some effort to develop an interface that is so simple that anyone can use it and still make it functional. To call that 'dumbed down' shows a strange desire for added, unnecessary complexity.
It takes some effort to develop an interface that is so simple that anyone can use it and still make it functional. To call that 'dumbed down' shows a strange desire for added, unnecessary complexity.
It shows nothing of the sort. Instead, it shows a desire for a full-featured product that is well designed, rather than a product which excludes important stuff in the name of ease of use.
And I think that "dumbed down" is an apt description for products which exclude functionality in order to be easier to use.
And the crazieszt thing of all, IMO, is the way the iPhone is HARDER to use than some possible alternatives - for example, scrolling through 11 pages of similar looking icons to find what you want, rather than allowing similar apps to be grouped into folders.
Before I got my iPhone, I was under the impression that Apple was the king of the UI. But Springboard (again, IMO) sucks big time. I had better app launchers a decade ago on my PalmOS devices.
As great as the iPhone is (was?), the exclusion of capabilities in the name of simplicity is just a cop out. ISTM that it is just a lame excuse for lack of skill in making an easy-to-use UI that allows advanced users to get the most out of the device, while allowing novices to be comfortable.
The two things are not mutually exclusive, claims to the contrary notwithstanding.
It shows nothing of the sort. Instead, it shows a desire for a full-featured product that is well designed, rather than a product which excludes important stuff in the name of ease of use.
And I think that "dumbed down" is an apt description for products which exclude functionality in order to be easier to use.
Your claims were that it dumbed down, in the sense that it was too easy to use, i.e. your example that your neighbour with down syndrome would easily use it. This doesn't imply anything to do with missing feature, but instead appears to be a complaint about ease of use of the interface itself.
Are there missing feature? Yes, of course. Most have little to do with ease of use. The most glaring have mostly been added (CnP, tethering, VOIP on 3G) and had nothing to do with ease of use.
Which features/functions in particular are missing that you feel were left out in order to make the device easier to use and so dumbed down?
And the crazieszt thing of all, IMO, is the way the iPhone is HARDER to use than some possible alternatives - for example, scrolling through 11 pages of similar looking icons to find what you want, rather than allowing similar apps to be grouped into folders.
Before I got my iPhone, I was under the impression that Apple was the king of the UI. But Springboard (again, IMO) sucks big time. I had better app launchers a decade ago on my PalmOS devices.
You seem to be stuck looking at mobile interfaces through desktop coloured glasses. The entire paradigm of files and folders was pioneered and polished by Apple. Opting for an interface that goes away from a hierarchal display of applications, files and folders doesn't make it 'dumbed down'...it means they feel that a single level navigation system fits better for mobile devices.
Folder navigation has never been done well on cell phones. Continuing to use that concept on a mobile device is simply kludging it in so that people who can only conceptualize navigation in one manner can use something that is somewhat similar to their desktop experience. That wouldn't be making a 'smarter' interface. It is more of a demonstration of laziness and a belief that users cannot comprehend a different UI.
maybe they should also expose the command line. This would help users that are more comfortable with CLI....no, leaving that out has nothing to do with 'dumbing it down'and more to do with, 'it doesn't make sense on a mobile device'.
Comments
Actually, I think it's a bit...centre.
excuse me, but you're not speakin' American real well there, boy.
Yes. Sorry for the typo. Do you have an cite for your claim that it is based on WinCE?
I gave you a cite! http://www.google.com/
Or you can feel free to just cite me.
I gave you a cite! http://www.google.com/
Or you can feel free to just cite me.
It doesn't work that way, nor is it so simple. It's up to you to back up your own claims. We haven't seen the articles you've seen, you have a better idea of what you're looking for than we would. Usually, it's up to the person that makes an positive claim of a fact to back it up when asked.
Also, I haven't seen anything that says for sure, it's all speculation so far that I have found, or based on unnamed sources. Reasonable speculation, mind you, but not something that justifies an absolute statement.
Daring Fireball 10-02-16 11:02 PM John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/
Greg Kumparek:
As far as I could tell, there is currently no copy/paste functionality. We were told that ?developers will hear more about that? at Microsoft?s MIX conference next month, though it was implied that it would be about why copy and paste ?won?t be necessary? rather than when it was coming.
How 2007.
It doesn't work that way, nor is it so simple. It's up to you to back up your own claims. We haven't seen the articles you've seen, you have a better idea of what you're looking for than we would. Usually, it's up to the person that makes an positive claim of a fact to back it up when asked.
Also, I haven't seen anything that says for sure, it's all speculation so far that I have found, or based on unnamed sources. Reasonable speculation, mind you, but not something that justifies an absolute statement.
Snore...
You do know the guy that is demanding proof is the same one that thinks Microsoft is a major owner of Apple? My idea was that some research would have done him good.
In any case, Charlie Kindel responded via twitter to a question about the origin of WP7S and said it's a new version of CE.
That said, I don't understand the resistance to the idea that WP7S is based on a new version of Windows CE!
How many phone markets are left to MS?
I mean, I have read that Motorola is going their way and Palm has WebOS and Android is on a bunch of HTC phones instead of MS, does that mean MS will have just this one model phone and they have to "Make" it themselves? Or is the OS available to other phone manufacturers and who will license it? I think even Dell is looking elsewhere, not sure though.
Also, is this CDMA phone? Which carrier will have this?
Not interested in getting one. Just have some questions. There is more then enough comments about MS belated attempt to alter their phone OS. Just because I agree with most of them, I won't be superfluous...
According to http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/w...s-playing-to/:
Carrier partnerships are far and wide, including AT&T, Deutsche Telekom AG, Orange, SFR, Sprint, Telecom Italia, Telefónica, Telstra, T-Mobile USA, Verizon Wireless and Vodafone, while hardware partners include Dell, Garmin-Asus, HTC, HP, LG, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, Toshiba and Qualcomm.
If true, that is very nice starting lineup, particularly 9 months before actual launch. Of course, we'll see when the time comes.
This is most likely not a product that immediately compete with the iPhone.
Instead, I'm of the opinion that it would more or less steal the Android/BB's thunder.
The iPhone has significant competitive advantages including a strong, growing market share, and a strong brand follower-ship.
They continue to offer a unique product that competitors have not managed to truly imitate.
That being said, the rest of the smartphone market is not competing with the iPhone, they are competing among themselves.
It was predicted correctly that the Android will eat into WinMo's market share.
The same should apply to this recent development.
In other words,
People who want an iPhone will buy an iPhone, they will not even consider alternatives.
People who want a smartphone, on the other hand, may consider this new offering.
Give or take, that's my take on what will happen on the short-term.
Also:
stfu trollers/fanbois/pundits, kthxbye
You are seeing things too black and white.
I have an iPhone, and when the time for update comes I'll consider everything available to find what works best for me. That is because I got iPhone as it was best suited for my needs, not because it is iPhone.
Likewise, my wife.
Likewise, my mate.
Of course we might end with iPhone 4 or 5 if we decide it is the best for us, but we will consider others without bias.
Couple of our clients got iPhone because we told them they are simple to use and have everything they need. What they will take next time depends on what we will recommend them. They are middle-age, down to Earth people who don't get Apple hype and don't even know who Steve Jobs is.
In fact, of all people I personally know having iPhone, only one will likely get another no matter what. That is one out of ten, more or less.
Of course 10 people experience is purely anecdotal. Still, how many other iPhone users think the same? I think there is a number.
As far as i knew MS is supporting HTML 5 but its a double edged sword seeing as how it can kill off Silverlight.
Nothing had really been announced that WM7 will or wont support Flash or silverlight. Its got 9 months till release so heres hoping Flash is gonna be there
And Adobe has 9 more months to come up with decent Flash for mobile platform
I think it looks pretty good. After being bashed on the head by the iPhone and Android et al they finally get that people don't want their desktop OS on a phone. I've used many WinMo phones (mostly HTC and Palm) and it was just an ugly experience with the stylus navigating around but at least HTC made that experience more tolerable (loved their phones).
I'm surprised they didn't call it Zune OS or MSPhone OS.
Riding on popularity of Windows 7, I'd guess.
Windows Mobile 7 and Copy-and-Paste
Daring Fireball 10-02-16 11:02 PM John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/
Greg Kumparek:
As far as I could tell, there is currently no copy/paste functionality. We were told that ?developers will hear more about that? at Microsoft?s MIX conference next month, though it was implied that it would be about why copy and paste ?won?t be necessary? rather than when it was coming.
How 2007.
Right... You're going to cruxify a non-released OS for not having copy/paste at the current moment (I've underlined that word in your own article quote for you)? How do you know that it won't have it when it's officially released at the end of the year? It is still software under work, after all.
If Apple had their software in-work with the same issue, you'd claim the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not like they would release their mobile OS into the wild without it and continue to not have it until after 2 iterations, right?
What about the idea that MS might have come up with a way to not need the traditional text selection copy/paste? If that's the case, I'd really be interested in seeing what they came up with. As either Engadget or Gizmodo said (I can't remember which one), MS has "out-Appled Apple" with WP7S, so anything's game at this point...
Right... You're going to cruxify a non-released OS for not having copy/paste at the current moment (I've underlined that word in your own article quote for you)? How do you know that it won't have it when it's officially released at the end of the year? It is still software under work, after all.
If Apple had their software in-work with the same issue, you'd claim the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not like they would release their mobile OS into the wild without it and continue to not have it until after 2 iterations, right?
What about the idea that MS might have come up with a way to not need the traditional text selection copy/paste? If that's the case, I'd really be interested in seeing what they came up with. As either Engadget or Gizmodo said (I can't remember which one), MS has "out-Appled Apple" with WP7S, so anything's game at this point...
I was thinking the same thing. How 2007? How about How 2007, 2008 and half of 2009? Apple released their iPhone OS without copy and paste for 2 years and the Windows trolls loved to rant over how this was a glaring, embarrassing omission. Meanwhile, the Apple fans argued that it was not a necessity, that Apple would include it when the timing was right and other priorities were completed. I argued the same thing in Apple's defense. To now attempt to use that same feature as a cludge to bash a not yet released OS from MS seems petty and not a little ironic.
To now attempt to use that same feature as a cludge to bash a not yet released OS from MS seems petty and not a little ironic.
There's a a lot of irony these days.
I find the viewpoint "the iPhone is best because it has so much software" to be ironic, given that the Mac's lack of software was defended on a "quality, not quantity" basis.
Any port in a storm, I guess...
There's a a lot of irony these days.
I find the viewpoint "the iPhone is best because it has so much software" to be ironic, given that the Mac's lack of software was defended on a "quality, not quantity" basis.
Any port in a storm, I guess...
No more ironic than WinMo users dumping on the iPhone for using too simple an interface. Their argument is usually that WinMo being inconsistent, non-intuitive or requiring visits to XDA for usable or stable ROMs to flash somehow makes it targeted at 'power' users. They tend to confuse 'poorly designed' with 'advanced'.
No more ironic than WinMo users dumping on the iPhone for using too simple an interface. Their argument is usually that WinMo being inconsistent, non-intuitive or requiring visits to XDA for usable or stable ROMs to flash somehow makes it targeted at 'power' users. They tend to confuse 'poorly designed' with 'advanced'.
That's more silly than ironic. WinMo sucks. I hope that version 7 will be better, but I doubt it will be better than the then-available alternatives.
I had a WinMo phone for a few weeks. I tried to like it. But it sucked, and I got a Treo instead.
Now I have an iPhone, which is better in many ways, but infuriatingly dumbed down in too many ways for my taste.
Now I have an iPhone, which is better in many ways, but infuriatingly dumbed down in too many ways for my taste.
What's wrong with it being simplified? That is sort of the point. You should be able to pick it up and be able to use it right away. That is the nature of well designed, intuitive software. You think it would be better if it was a confused, inconsistent mess?
What's wrong with it being simplified? That is sort of the point. You should be able to pick it up and be able to use it right away. That is the nature of well designed, intuitive software. You think it would be better if it was a confused, inconsistent mess?
No, of course not. There are an infinite number of choices between "dumbed down" and "a confused, inconsistent mess"
What's up with the black/white extremes presented here as false dichotomies? I see them so often that I wonder.
What's up with the black/white extremes presented here as false dichotomies? I see them so often that I wonder.
You mean like calling it dumbed down?
It takes some effort to develop an interface that is so simple that anyone can use it and still make it functional. To call that 'dumbed down' shows a strange desire for added, unnecessary complexity.
You mean like calling it dumbed down?
It takes some effort to develop an interface that is so simple that anyone can use it and still make it functional. To call that 'dumbed down' shows a strange desire for added, unnecessary complexity.
It shows nothing of the sort. Instead, it shows a desire for a full-featured product that is well designed, rather than a product which excludes important stuff in the name of ease of use.
And I think that "dumbed down" is an apt description for products which exclude functionality in order to be easier to use.
And the crazieszt thing of all, IMO, is the way the iPhone is HARDER to use than some possible alternatives - for example, scrolling through 11 pages of similar looking icons to find what you want, rather than allowing similar apps to be grouped into folders.
Before I got my iPhone, I was under the impression that Apple was the king of the UI. But Springboard (again, IMO) sucks big time. I had better app launchers a decade ago on my PalmOS devices.
As great as the iPhone is (was?), the exclusion of capabilities in the name of simplicity is just a cop out. ISTM that it is just a lame excuse for lack of skill in making an easy-to-use UI that allows advanced users to get the most out of the device, while allowing novices to be comfortable.
The two things are not mutually exclusive, claims to the contrary notwithstanding.
It shows nothing of the sort. Instead, it shows a desire for a full-featured product that is well designed, rather than a product which excludes important stuff in the name of ease of use.
And I think that "dumbed down" is an apt description for products which exclude functionality in order to be easier to use.
Your claims were that it dumbed down, in the sense that it was too easy to use, i.e. your example that your neighbour with down syndrome would easily use it. This doesn't imply anything to do with missing feature, but instead appears to be a complaint about ease of use of the interface itself.
Are there missing feature? Yes, of course. Most have little to do with ease of use. The most glaring have mostly been added (CnP, tethering, VOIP on 3G) and had nothing to do with ease of use.
Which features/functions in particular are missing that you feel were left out in order to make the device easier to use and so dumbed down?
And the crazieszt thing of all, IMO, is the way the iPhone is HARDER to use than some possible alternatives - for example, scrolling through 11 pages of similar looking icons to find what you want, rather than allowing similar apps to be grouped into folders.
Before I got my iPhone, I was under the impression that Apple was the king of the UI. But Springboard (again, IMO) sucks big time. I had better app launchers a decade ago on my PalmOS devices.
You seem to be stuck looking at mobile interfaces through desktop coloured glasses. The entire paradigm of files and folders was pioneered and polished by Apple. Opting for an interface that goes away from a hierarchal display of applications, files and folders doesn't make it 'dumbed down'...it means they feel that a single level navigation system fits better for mobile devices.
Folder navigation has never been done well on cell phones. Continuing to use that concept on a mobile device is simply kludging it in so that people who can only conceptualize navigation in one manner can use something that is somewhat similar to their desktop experience. That wouldn't be making a 'smarter' interface. It is more of a demonstration of laziness and a belief that users cannot comprehend a different UI.
maybe they should also expose the command line. This would help users that are more comfortable with CLI....no, leaving that out has nothing to do with 'dumbing it down'and more to do with, 'it doesn't make sense on a mobile device'.